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Re: [ironclaw] Re:Considering building an IronClaw/JadeClaw MUCK...

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  • Drakkon Darkspell
    ... With any luck, and this being proof of the existance of God, they won t be using MUCK as their codebase. A real RolePlaying environment requires MUSH, at
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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      >From: taby smith <digi_astrid@...>

      > I'd play but I don't understand hardly anything
      >about mucks.

      With any luck, and this being proof of the existance of God, they won't be
      using MUCK as their codebase. A real RolePlaying environment requires MUSH,
      at the very least, and MUX at the best. Anything less and you might as well
      code your own from scratch, it would be just as good to work with.

      And for those of you who are about to ask why it should matter to the
      players, it doesn't. Its purely a coders concern, and MUCK is the worlds
      crappiest code language to make things happen in. MUX is much easier to set
      and work with. And there are about thirty times the number of coders out
      there for MUX than for MUCK... MPI and MUF, two languages, two seperate
      functions, one system. BAD IDEA. *shrug*

      - Drakkon, Cyberdragon
      - ICQ: #4037435
      - MSN: Dracondis@...

      Dragon Code:
      DC2.D Gh/m L+++ W~ T Pahltvw Skhs Ceb-%~ Bpl A+++! Fr+++! N* M++mm O H+++!
      $+ Fc+ R+++! Ac+++ J S++ U+++ I++# V+++ Q+++! Tc+ Df+++

      Furry Code:
      FCWpst3dmrw A+ C++ D H++ M++++ P++ R+++ T++++ W Z Sm++ RLCT/RB a cdlmnuw++$
      d++ e f++ h++ iwf++ j++p sm+

      "I will get us thru this. I always have.
      I will drag you kicking and screaming,
      and, in the end, you will thank me."
      - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

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    • Alexander Williams
      ... Actually, a REAL roleplaying environment requires so much more than software that its absolutely irellevant what core code platform its running under.
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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        On Sunday 01 December 2002 03:16, Drakkon Darkspell wrote:
        > With any luck, and this being proof of the existance of God, they won't be
        > using MUCK as their codebase. A real RolePlaying environment requires
        > MUSH, at the very least, and MUX at the best. Anything less and you might

        Actually, a REAL roleplaying environment requires so much more than software
        that its absolutely irellevant what core code platform its running under.
        There are a horde of things far ahead in line before the codebase, from a
        decent and dedicated Administration Cadre that knows the material, to people
        willing to /play/, to a concept that's inclusive -- but not so much so the
        playing population has no reason to interact, to building standards, to
        setting cluster design, to site determination, that picking a server based on
        the coding underpinnings up front seems a ridiculous act.

        [This from someone who's admin'd MU* since almost before there were MU*s to
        admin, and written a core from scratch to boot. His eyes still bleed from
        the agonizing memories.][

        > And for those of you who are about to ask why it should matter to the
        > players, it doesn't. Its purely a coders concern, and MUCK is the worlds

        The only concern of importance, really, is what the one stable coder you
        recruit wants to code in, all else is moot. And I say "one" purely
        optimistically. Finding and keeping a coder who is willing to actually work
        from system specs has always been the bane of my existance.

        > crappiest code language to make things happen in. MUX is much easier to

        No, no, MUF is, indeed, the world's crappiest code. If you specify up front
        EVERYTHING is to be done in MPI, and your coders/developers have any
        experience with Lisp or Scheme, its not so bad. Admittedly, MUX is easier
        for me to deal with on some levels, but -- man, it suffers from the fact you
        can't lay it out in a neatly indented, maintainable-code way. (MPI allows
        you to if you treat lists of MPI commands as elements, which you can do. It
        makes maint a lot easier.)

        ObIronClaw: From a MU* perspective, Triskellion provides a nice, solid core to
        build around -- and simultaneously the worst of traps for the unwary or
        overly traditional builder. Its a mistake to try and build a
        street->building->room structure for such an area because you'll end up with
        a thousand rooms and fifteen players scattered amongst them. More abstract
        structural hierarchies of nested spaces helps a lot in that way, channeling
        people to common areas.

        --
        Alexander Williams (thantos@...) | http://www.chancel.org |
        ============================================================================
        Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk
        agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
      • Drakkon Darkspell
        ... I think I mentioned that this preference was purely from a coding standpoint. ... Having been in the game for the last twelve or so years, I know exactly
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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          >From: Alexander Williams <thantos@...>

          >[This from someone who's admin'd MU* since almost before there were
          >MU*s to admin, and written a core from scratch to boot. His eyes
          >still bleed from the agonizing memories.]

          I think I mentioned that this preference was purely from a coding
          standpoint.

          >The only concern of importance, really, is what the one stable coder
          >you recruit wants to code in, all else is moot. And I say "one" purely
          >optimistically. Finding and keeping a coder who is willing to
          >actually work from system specs has always been the bane of my
          >existence.

          Having been in the game for the last twelve or so years, I know exactly what
          you mean. that one truism is why I learned to code in the first place. If
          nothing gets done, i can only blame myself (or so I thought until I got a
          useless freak of a RP Wizard who stole my code room, my staff, and my
          system, then staged a mutiny to start his own site and trashed mine like a
          common hacker...). However, since I was not responsible for that, it isn't
          really my fault, so I'm happy. *sigh*

          >No, no, MUF is, indeed, the world's crappiest code. If you specify up
          >front EVERYTHING is to be done in MPI, and your coders/developers have
          >any experience with Lisp or Scheme, its not so bad. Admittedly, MUX
          >is easier for me to deal with on some levels, but -- man, it suffers
          >from the fact you can't lay it out in a neatly indented, maintainable-
          >code way. (MPI allows you to if you treat lists of MPI commands as
          >elements, which you can do. It makes maint a lot easier.)

          Granted. However, since I don't separate them in my mind anymore, as they
          exist in only one codebase, and that makes it easier to ignore them.

          >ObIronClaw: From a MU* perspective, Triskellian provides a nice, solid
          >core to build around -- and simultaneously the worst of traps for the
          >unwary or overly traditional builder. Its a mistake to try and build a
          >street->building->room structure for such an area because you'll end
          >up with a thousand rooms and fifteen players scattered amongst them.
          >More abstract structural hierarchies of nested spaces helps a lot in
          >that way, channeling people to common areas.

          I've always found the concept of building one or two Inns, a network of
          streets to be filled in later, and all the important 'one-room' buildings
          (like government offices, jails, etc) where players are likely to RP, then
          you can add more later as you grow. Fill out the details, as it were.

          - Drakkon, Cyberdragon
          - ICQ: #4037435
          - MSN: Dracondis@...

          Dragon Code:
          DC2.D Gh/m L+++ W~ T Pahltvw Skhs Ceb-%~ Bpl A+++! Fr+++! N* M++mm O H+++!
          $+ Fc+ R+++! Ac+++ J S++ U+++ I++# V+++ Q+++! Tc+ Df+++

          Furry Code:
          FCWpst3dmrw A+ C++ D H++ M++++ P++ R+++ T++++ W Z Sm++ RLCT/RB a cdlmnuw++$
          d++ e f++ h++ iwf++ j++p sm+

          "I will get us thru this. I always have.
          I will drag you kicking and screaming,
          and, in the end, you will thank me."
          - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Alexander Williams
          ... Whippersnappers. I swear. [crotchety old-man voice: off] ... The problem with being your own coder is that then you re no longer your own designer or
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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            On Sunday 01 December 2002 05:41, Drakkon Darkspell wrote:
            > Having been in the game for the last twelve or so years, I know exactly

            Whippersnappers. I swear. [crotchety old-man voice: off]

            > place. If nothing gets done, i can only blame myself (or so I thought

            The problem with being your own coder is that then you're no longer your own
            designer or head admin -- all of which really need a full-time dedication to.
            Ah, time, least elastic of resources.

            > I've always found the concept of building one or two Inns, a network of
            > streets to be filled in later, and all the important 'one-room' buildings

            Why even build a network of streets? Its not like Street X is really
            logically different from Street Y. Split the city into three to five (less
            is better) "zones" each containing three to seven "significant locations."
            Streets are abstracted; if it becomes an issue, people can work them into
            their emotes. This unifies areas, vastly shrinks topologies, and lets people
            reasonably watch other RP without necessarily having to be in the same place.
            (Let's not kid ourselves, RP is as much voyeurism as performance, online;
            working in reasonable ways for folks to watch /others/ RP is greatly
            facilitative.)

            But I fear we're getting into the esoterica of virtual space design and less
            Sanguine Gaming.

            Ob*Claw: I've been puttering around with putting togeher a hybrid of D&D and
            *Claw I'm calling, for the sake of internal reference, DungeonClaw. I've
            knocked out a handfull of the basic Races and really need to decide on what
            to do with magic. (I'm leaning toward making the related D&D spells
            individual tomes using my Tome system in *Claw spell Colleges -- for example,
            the Bigsby's Paw spells are all one Thaumaturigical Tome. Any Thaumaturgist
            could learn them, given time and effort.)

            --
            Alexander Williams (thantos@...) | http://www.chancel.org |
            ============================================================================
            Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk
            agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
          • Drakkon Darkspell
            ... Ok, assuming you are talking D20 and Iron/JadeClaw, you officially have my undivided attention. I m working on that type of a project, myself, adapting
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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              >From: Alexander Williams <thantos@...>

              >Ob*Claw: I've been puttering around with putting togeher a hybrid of
              >D&D and *Claw I'm calling, for the sake of internal reference,
              >DungeonClaw. I've knocked out a handfull of the basic Races and
              >really need to decide on what to do with magic. (I'm leaning toward
              >making the related D&D spells individual tomes using my Tome system in
              >*Claw spell Colleges -- for example, the Bigsby's Paw spells are all
              >one Thaumaturigical Tome. Any Thaumaturgist could learn them, given
              >time and effort.)

              Ok, assuming you are talking D20 and Iron/JadeClaw, you officially have my
              undivided attention. I'm working on that type of a project, myself,
              adapting the IronClaw and JadeClaw materials to the d20 system for
              recruiting new players.

              How far along is your adaptation?

              I have most of the races converted over from using the Monster Manuals and
              other sources, as well as ECLs for them, but I have yet to equate careers
              with classes and feat packages...

              - Drakkon, Cyberdragon
              - ICQ: #4037435
              - MSN: Dracondis@...

              Dragon Code:
              DC2.D Gh/m L+++ W~ T Pahltvw Skhs Ceb-%~ Bpl A+++! Fr+++! N* M++mm O H+++!
              $+ Fc+ R+++! Ac+++ J S++ U+++ I++# V+++ Q+++! Tc+ Df+++

              Furry Code:
              FCWpst3dmrw A+ C++ D H++ M++++ P++ R+++ T++++ W Z Sm++ RLCT/RB a cdlmnuw++$
              d++ e f++ h++ iwf++ j++p sm+

              "I will get us thru this. I always have.
              I will drag you kicking and screaming,
              and, in the end, you will thank me."
              - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

              _________________________________________________________________
              MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
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            • Alexander Williams
              ... I actually mean D&D as documented in the _Rules Cyclopedia_. Right, seriously /old school/ D&D, back when Elf and Dwarf were Classes and evefything could
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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                On Sunday 01 December 2002 06:16, Drakkon Darkspell wrote:
                > Ok, assuming you are talking D20 and Iron/JadeClaw, you officially have my

                I actually mean D&D as documented in the _Rules Cyclopedia_. Right, seriously
                /old school/ D&D, back when Elf and Dwarf were Classes and evefything could
                fit in one book. I love Jon Tweet to death, but not even he could make AD&D
                into a paletable mix for me, even if you rip out the cruddy parts -- he
                didn't go quite far enough.

                (It pleased me to no end when I realized you could rip out the Stat values
                entirely and run on pure Mods, and replace the crufty old d20 mechanic with a
                nice, streamlined Fudge. That might be my /next/ piece of work. Yes, I
                despise D20/OGL so thuroughly that I've turned down requests to work on D20
                writing projects. This says something.)

                > undivided attention. I'm working on that type of a project, myself,
                > adapting the IronClaw and JadeClaw materials to the d20 system for
                > recruiting new players.

                Wrong way, wrong way!

                > How far along is your adaptation?

                Not as far as I'd like; I keep getting distracted by getting dragged out of
                the country and Conventions coming up.

                --
                Alexander Williams (thantos@...) | http://www.chancel.org |
                ============================================================================
                Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk
                agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
              • kevin haseman
                is there or is there not a hyena race in either ironclaw or jadeclaw i have both but don t see it but at MFF there was a button with a hyena female on it???
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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                  is there or is there not a hyena race in either
                  ironclaw or jadeclaw i have both but don't see it but
                  at MFF there was a button with a hyena female on it???

                  Soro

                  =====
                  Soro
                  the brown fox

                  http://www.sable-pro.net/SorosFoxHole.html

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                • Diana Wray
                  ... Patience, my friend, patience...they ll be in a supplement. Jason, can I say any more? LP
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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                    > is there or is there not a hyena race in either
                    > ironclaw or jadeclaw i have both but don't see it but
                    > at MFF there was a button with a hyena female on it???

                    Patience, my friend, patience...they'll be in a supplement.

                    Jason, can I say any more?

                    LP
                  • WolfWings ShadowFlight
                    ... won t be ... requires MUSH, ... as well ... I would be using MUCK, specifically Fuzzball 6.x, as my codebase. I say this, as it is far and away the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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                      > With any luck, and this being proof of the existance of God, they
                      won't be
                      > using MUCK as their codebase. A real RolePlaying environment
                      requires MUSH,
                      > at the very least, and MUX at the best. Anything less and you might
                      as well
                      > code your own from scratch, it would be just as good to work with.

                      I would be using MUCK, specifically Fuzzball 6.x, as my codebase. I
                      say this, as it is far and away the programming language I am most
                      familiar with, having learned FORTH and LISP in the early 80's and
                      still preferring them to many more 'modern' languages. Assembly-code
                      is something else I work in on most platforms, Win32, Linux, and MacOS/X.

                      Yes, I'd be the lead coder, and I've already done some substantial
                      'proof of concept' code before even putting this idea forth to prove
                      to myself that I was both capable of making this idea, and that the
                      idea was a feasable one. My posting here is far less about what system
                      I build the server from, and much more if Sanguine Productions would
                      prefer such a system not exist, or if players wouldn't care if it did.

                      Right now, players have shown enough interest to encourage me to
                      continue working on the codebase in my spare time for my own reasons
                      while I wait to hear is SP has any problems with such a MUCK existing,
                      due in large part to concerns over Copyright and IP concerns I'm sure
                      any gaming company may have.

                      > And for those of you who are about to ask why it should matter to the
                      > players, it doesn't. Its purely a coders concern, and MUCK is the
                      worlds
                      > crappiest code language to make things happen in. MUX is much
                      easier to set
                      > and work with. And there are about thirty times the number of
                      coders out
                      > there for MUX than for MUCK... MPI and MUF, two languages, two
                      seperate
                      > functions, one system. BAD IDEA. *shrug*

                      I don't see why they're a problem. This coming from a coder that can
                      and has repeatedly in the 5.x series intermingled MPI and MUF code in
                      projects without any problems.

                      And having two seperate languages for two totally seperate functions
                      seems quite reasonable to me. MPI is meant as a 'safe' scripting
                      language anyone can use, that can't damage the MUCK as a whole. MUF is
                      meant as a 'powerful' language that can do anything, up to and
                      including tacnuke the entire MUCK in less than a second. One is meant
                      for anyone to use for trivial tasks, the other is a true 'programming
                      language' in every way, with almost no limitations at the higher levels.

                      In 6.x, the language supports a great deal more as well, like events,
                      proper arrays, protected module-local variables, floating-point math,
                      and other things that remove most, if not all, of the complaints I've
                      heard levelled against it.

                      And considering the coder would be the MUCK owner, finding a coder is
                      a moot point. :-)

                      For my past experience, I was the coder, both MUF/MPI and server-side,
                      for a previous MUD-like MUCK that was the reason for the sudden period
                      of Fuzzball 5.4x and 5.5x releases after months of no updates, as
                      while we were implementing MOBs and other features, we came across
                      several bugs in the server which have since been fixed.

                      Anyways, getting back to IronClaw and JadeClaw, is anyone from SP for
                      or against such a thing existing, either on their own or as an SP
                      stance on the issue? I need to know this before I can really go
                      anywhere with it.
                    • WolfWings ShadowFlight
                      ... So be perfectly blunt... I m the one planning to do all the coding. I personally find MUX and MUSH code to be the bane of MY existance, as I simply,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                        > >The only concern of importance, really, is what the one stable coder
                        > >you recruit wants to code in, all else is moot. And I say "one" purely
                        > >optimistically. Finding and keeping a coder who is willing to
                        > >actually work from system specs has always been the bane of my
                        > >existence.

                        So be perfectly blunt... I'm the one planning to do all the coding. I
                        personally find MUX and MUSH code to be the bane of MY existance, as I
                        simply, totally, and utterly am unable to understand it, or get any
                        work done with it.

                        MUF and MPI on the other hand, I've used to prototype projects and
                        programming assignments for school-work before, and find it's the
                        fastest language for me to develop in, short of x86 Assembly or plain
                        BASIC, both of which I still use today on Win32 and Linux both.

                        And I can say with authority that at least FuzzBall MUCK is quite
                        capable of being used for a MUD-like environment, or just for
                        providing tools for assisting others run the actual adventures. The
                        newest itteration has event-based systems, proper timing system,
                        built-in ANSI support, floating-point math, and finally proper array
                        support as well as dictionary support much along the lines of PERL or
                        similair.

                        So anyways... assuming it's a MUCK specifically... anyone still
                        interested in such a place existing? If so, I've started up a seperate
                        group to let us talk about this stuff without cluttering up the main
                        IronClaw group here on Yahoo. Head over to the ClawMUCK for now I
                        guess. :-)
                      • hitogatakitsune@aol.com
                        I ve never used a MUCK before, but I m willing to try one :3 =foxboy=
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 4, 2002
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                          I've never used a MUCK before, but I'm willing to try one :3

                          =foxboy=
                        • Drakkon Darkspell
                          ... That being the case, having attempted to play on MUCKs that want to pretend to be RP sites, I can say that I no longer have any interest in this project at
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 4, 2002
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                            >From: "WolfWings ShadowFlight" <wolfwngs@...>

                            >So be perfectly blunt... I'm the one planning to do all the coding. I
                            >personally find MUX and MUSH code to be the bane of MY existance, as I
                            >simply, totally, and utterly am unable to understand it, or get any
                            >work done with it.

                            That being the case, having attempted to play on MUCKs that want to pretend
                            to be RP sites, I can say that I no longer have any interest in this project
                            at all. I've seen the effort that it takes to make such a site work, and
                            most of it, even among the most well-intentioned, comes out half-assed and
                            sloppy. The dice programs never function propeerly and are large and
                            unwieldy to use, the codebase itself lacks most of the amenatires that make
                            role-play worthwhile, and everything needs to be added in, most of which is
                            not coded, so you will need to write the programs from scratch.

                            If you manage to get this running, I will talk to you in three years when
                            you finish the project, and MAYBE you might have a working alpha project by
                            then.

                            Good luck getting your bicycle to be a rocket car. I have yet to see anyone
                            successfully force something to be something it isn't. MUCK is inadequite
                            to the task you're placing on it, and if you make it work, you will be the
                            first. Have fun, and don't go crazy.

                            - Drakkon, Cyberdragon
                            - ICQ: #4037435
                            - MSN: Dracondis@...

                            Dragon Code:
                            DC2.D Gh/m L+++ W~ T Pahltvw Skhs Ceb-%~ Bpl A+++! Fr+++! N* M++mm O H+++!
                            $+ Fc+ R+++! Ac+++ J S++ U+++ I++# V+++ Q+++! Tc+ Df+++

                            Furry Code:
                            FCWpst3dmrw A+ C++ D H++ M++++ P++ R+++ T++++ W Z Sm++ RLCT/RB a cdlmnuw++$
                            d++ e f++ h++ iwf++ j++p sm+

                            "I will get us thru this. I always have.
                            I will drag you kicking and screaming,
                            and, in the end, you will thank me."
                            - Tyler Durden, Fight Club

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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                          • Alexander Williams
                            ... Hash: SHA1 ... You know, the obvious counter-argument to this is FurryMUCK, which is /purely/ an RP/Social MUCK, without an (overall) mechanical system to
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 4, 2002
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                              On Wednesday 04 December 2002 15:36, Drakkon Darkspell wrote:
                              > That being the case, having attempted to play on MUCKs that want to pretend
                              > to be RP sites, I can say that I no longer have any interest in this

                              You know, the obvious counter-argument to this is FurryMUCK, which is /purely/
                              an RP/Social MUCK, without an (overall) mechanical system to be seen. I say
                              (overall) because there are special-purpose systems set up in various
                              locations to do various specific things, like FurrySpace and the Doko.

                              > project at all. I've seen the effort that it takes to make such a site
                              > work, and most of it, even among the most well-intentioned, comes out
                              > half-assed and sloppy. The dice programs never function propeerly and are

                              Is this where I point out that applies to all MU*, not just MUCKs, including
                              MUXen and MUSHes? Frankly, the whole lot of them are attention-hungry time
                              sinks to run well, assuming you have a /good/ plan up front and a good
                              vision; detriments there only add to it. In short, I think this is an unfair
                              criticism until the actual plan is put forth.

                              Besides, dice programs don't "always function improperly." I've never seen
                              anyone flub the actual dice core. The /interface/ to it might bite, and it
                              may be poorly integrated, but those are problems in design.

                              > large and unwieldy to use, the codebase itself lacks most of the amenatires
                              > that make role-play worthwhile, and everything needs to be added in, most

                              Another point: The codebase has nothing to do with RP. Nothing. I've seen RP
                              occuring on Perns, where the very setting opposes good RP *snicker* so I know
                              it occurs no matter what you do (for good or ill).

                              > Good luck getting your bicycle to be a rocket car. I have yet to see

                              Gee, Drakkon, think you can be a bit more of a prick here? I realize /I/ have
                              a reputation for being an unsociable, loud-mouthed brow-beater, but I really
                              don't want to see that title going to you instead. I have some professional
                              pride, here.

                              - --
                              Alexander Williams (thantos@...) | http://www.chancel.org |
                              ============================================================================
                              Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk
                              agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
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                            • mecha@gate.net
                              ... I ve tried to reply to the original poster about this, rather than contributing to MUCK-talk on this mailing list, but email is being bounced. In any case,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                >You know, the obvious counter-argument to this is FurryMUCK, which is /purely/
                                >an RP/Social MUCK, without an (overall) mechanical system to be seen. I say
                                >(overall) because there are special-purpose systems set up in various
                                >locations to do various specific things, like FurrySpace and the Doko.

                                I've tried to reply to the original poster about this, rather than
                                contributing to MUCK-talk on this mailing list, but email is being bounced.

                                In any case, I just wanted to note that, at least in my experience, it *is*
                                quite possible to run a roleplaying-oriented MUCK that actually has
                                structured roleplay -- that is, with a GM and players -- though the
                                experience is not exactly the same. (I personally prefer face-to-face
                                gaming with miniatures and scenery and a handful of dice ... but there's
                                also something to be said for the conveniences offered by MUCK-based
                                roleplaying as well.)

                                ("Boingdragon" from FurryMUCK set up a pretty nice web site for the MUCK in
                                question, SinaiMUCK at http://sinai.critter.net Sinai is a very small
                                roleplaying-oriented MUCK operated by "Lynx." You can find some examples of
                                Boingdragon's "cambot" code in the Holosuites on FurryMUCK -- The FurryMUCK
                                versions aren't quite fully functional, due to stricter MUF controls on
                                FurryMUCK than on Sinai, but they still have some useful functionality for
                                recording roleplay sessions and filtering out "out-of-character" commentary.)

                                In my opinion, your biggest problems will not be with code, but with
                                organization and structure. Is this MUCK just going to be "table-space" for
                                individual Ironclaw campaigns that have nothing to do with each other? Or,
                                are you going to have something more complicated, where all the plots run on
                                the MUCK are considered to be happening in the same reality, potentially
                                affecting each other?

                                In the former case, all you need is a place to play, some programs to
                                facilitate note-taking and having character stats easily accessible by
                                player and GM, and -- of course! -- some sort of die-roller program that
                                would facilitate the Ironclaw system. (That should be a cinch. I've
                                already written up a Deadlands dice-roller program, and anyone who's
                                familiar with that system would know that it would be a simple thing to back
                                off some of the code to have something that would work for Ironclaw. ;) )
                                The thing is, you'll need GMs eager to run plots. Finding players, in my
                                experience, is easy. It's the matter of finding someone willing to run a
                                game -- and who will stick to it and be reliable -- that's a whole lot tougher.

                                In the latter case ... well, there are so many different ways to approach
                                it, none of them free of trouble. You need to have someone to act as an
                                authority, to keep track of what plots are running, and what events are
                                going to shape the overall world setting. You have to contend with some
                                group of players over here who want to run a plot where aliens from outer
                                space land on the Ironclaw world (will that break the setting?), with tons
                                of people who all want to play dragons and unicorns and other mythic
                                creatures (does that spoil the mystique?), with greatly varying power levels
                                (this player group is now comprised of demi-gods, armed to the teeth with
                                magic weapons, because of a very generous Game Host), and so forth. And
                                then, of course, you'll have the standard MUCK issues of people who want to
                                build gigabytes worth of data to decorate their own perfect virtual living
                                space. (Will this be a MUCK where building is emphasized ... or a place
                                where only a select few get to add to the virtual environment?)

                                If you can get it to work, more power to ya. ;)

                                -- T. Jordan "Greywolf" Peacock -- http://greywolf.critter.net --
                              • WolfWings ShadowFlight
                                ... bounced. To help keep this short, I m going to keep this as brief as I can for the same reason. I ve started a new Yahoo group to discuss this further for
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 6, 2002
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                                  --- In ironclaw@y..., mecha@g... wrote:
                                  > I've tried to reply to the original poster about this, rather than
                                  > contributing to MUCK-talk on this mailing list, but email is being
                                  bounced.

                                  To help keep this short, I'm going to keep this as brief as I can for
                                  the same reason.

                                  I've started a new Yahoo group to discuss this further for the sole
                                  reason to avoid cluttering up this group with the chance of any
                                  further flame-bait mail like Drakkon's. I disagree with him for much
                                  the same reason as Alexander, in that the codebase matters far, far
                                  less than the interface TO the codebase.

                                  I'm sorry that a coder's choice of programming language can affect his
                                  respect that strongly, but to avoid the admins of this list having to
                                  cut this thread off, I'm going to do so right now and ask that any
                                  further discussion occur on the ClawMUCK group.

                                  Also, to Mr. Peacock, both of those ideas are quite valid, and
                                  discussion along those lines was what I was hoping for, far more than
                                  some inane technical argument over the merits of what codebase I
                                  should or should not choose to use for the project. I appologize for
                                  my e-mail bouncing, I hadn't updated my e-mail settings here for a
                                  while and have since gone over them to hopefully correct them.

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clawmuck/
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