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Re: [iptc-photometadata] Re: Comment: IPTC Core V1.1

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  • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
    Carl and all: First a general note regarding Creator: for IPTC Core 1.1 the IPTC Working Group only added the User and Implementation Notes, but did not change
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 30 1:34 AM
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      Carl and all:

      First a general note regarding Creator: for IPTC Core 1.1 the IPTC Working Group only added the User and Implementation Notes, but did not change any specification - in other words: these specifications existed in v 1.0, since 2004.

      Re the discussed cardinality issue:

      - IIM defines the "by-line" as having multiple occurrences = cardinality 0..unbounded

      - but Adobe's built-in custom panels only allowed for a single occurrence. To find a way out the group working on IPTC Core v 1.0 compromised on this:

      - potentially there may be more than one Creator fields, which are actually notated as dc:creator properties, this is already indicated by "Seq ProperName".

      - but for the display by the user interface only the first occurrence in the sequence should be used - see the XMP access note: "dc:creator/*[1]

      For that reason I'm highly inclined not to change the cardinality specification but to add more language in a note to better explain this compromise.

      Can we compromise on that?

      Michael



      On 30 Apr 2008 at 6:58  Patrick Peccatte wrote:

      > --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, Carl Rambert <crambert@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Correction:
      > >
      > > Page 17, Creator, Cardinality
      > > 0..unbounded --> should be --> 0..1
      > > to match the Implementation Note(s) and the XMP access Note(s)
      > >
      > > Carl Rambert, Pound Hill Software
      >
      > However, if you type "Carl; Patrick" in Photoshop's Author field, this
      > generates the following XMP segment:
      >
      >   <dc:creator>
      >    <rdf:Seq>
      >     <rdf:li>Carl</rdf:li>
      >     <rdf:li>Patrick</rdf:li>
      >    </rdf:Seq>
      >   </dc:creator>
      >
      > which is a true "Seq"
      >
      > And in IIM, there is only "Carl"
      >
      > --
      > Patrick Peccatte
      > www.pixpalace.com
      > www.softexperience.com
      >
      >
      >
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      ==================================================
      Sent by:
      Michael Steidl
      Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
      International Press Telecommunications Council
      "Information Technology for News"
      Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
       
    • Patrick Peccatte
      ... occurrence in the sequence should be ... At least in Photoshop, the full sequence is displayed, not only the first occurrence ... specification but to add
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 30 1:48 AM
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        --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Steidl (IPTC)"
        <mdirector@...> wrote:

        > - but for the display by the user interface only the first
        occurrence in the sequence should be
        > used - see the XMP access note: "dc:creator/*[1]

        At least in Photoshop, the full sequence is displayed, not only the
        first occurrence

        > For that reason I'm highly inclined not to change the cardinality
        specification but to add more
        > language in a note to better explain this compromise.
        >
        > Can we compromise on that?

        Yes, and explanations could point the fact that implementations do not
        always follow specifications ;-)
        --
        Patrick Peccatte
        www.pixpalace.com
        www.softexperience.com
      • Patrick Peccatte
        Minor typos in page 29 (GUID): particularely - particularly propably - probably identifer - identifier -- Patrick Peccatte www.pixpalace.com
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 30 1:57 AM
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          Minor typos in page 29 (GUID):
          particularely -> particularly
          propably -> probably
          identifer -> identifier
          --
          Patrick Peccatte
          www.pixpalace.com
          www.softexperience.com
        • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
          ... Regarding Adobe s Custom Panels you are right, Pattrick, but: how multiple occurrences of a property are displayed by a user interface is out of the scope
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 30 1:57 AM
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            On 30 Apr 2008 at 8:48  Patrick Peccatte wrote:

            > --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Steidl (IPTC)"
            > <mdirector@...> wrote:
            >
            > > - but for the display by the user interface only the first
            > occurrence in the sequence should be
            > > used - see the XMP access note: "dc:creator/*[1]
            >
            > At least in Photoshop, the full sequence is displayed, not only the
            > first occurrence

            Regarding Adobe's Custom Panels you are right, Pattrick, but: how multiple occurrences of a property are displayed by a user interface is out of the scope of the IPTC Schemas as we know the Adobe Custom Panels are only *one* solution among *others*.
             
            Michael

            > > For that reason I'm highly inclined not to change the cardinality
            > specification but to add more
            > > language in a note to better explain this compromise.
            > >
            > > Can we compromise on that?
            >
            > Yes, and explanations could point the fact that implementations do not
            > always follow specifications ;-)
            > --
            > Patrick Peccatte
            > www.pixpalace.com
            > www.softexperience.com
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
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            >
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            >


            ==================================================
            Sent by:
            Michael Steidl
            Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
            International Press Telecommunications Council
            "Information Technology for News"
            Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
             
          • Patrick Peccatte
            ... multiple occurrences of a ... the IPTC Schemas as we ... I understand Michael, but: - Adobe is the creator of XMP *and* the creator of custom panels - IPTC
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 30 2:11 AM
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              --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Steidl (IPTC)"
              <mdirector@...> wrote:
              > > At least in Photoshop, the full sequence is displayed, not only the
              > > first occurrence
              >
              > Regarding Adobe's Custom Panels you are right, Pattrick, but: how
              multiple occurrences of a
              > property are displayed by a user interface is out of the scope of
              the IPTC Schemas as we
              > know the Adobe Custom Panels are only *one* solution among *others*.

              I understand Michael, but:
              - Adobe is the creator of XMP *and* the creator of custom panels
              - IPTC Core custom panels are provided by IPTC on
              http://www.iptc.org/IPTC4XMP/
              this gives to custom panels a kind of "privilege" over other
              implementations

              I do not understand very well why it could be allowed to code multiple
              authors in Seq and not to be allowed to display all these authors.
              --
              Patrick Peccatte
              www.pixpalace.com
              www.softexperience.com
            • Michael Steidl (IPTC)
              ... I had to get back to my files of the development work in 2004: The issue is that the old IIM representation of Creator in the image header does not hold
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 30 3:21 AM
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                On 30 Apr 2008 at 9:11  Patrick Peccatte wrote:

                > --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Steidl (IPTC)"
                > <mdirector@...> wrote:
                > > > At least in Photoshop, the full sequence is displayed, not only the
                > > > first occurrence
                > >
                > > Regarding Adobe's Custom Panels you are right, Pattrick, but: how
                > multiple occurrences of a
                > > property are displayed by a user interface is out of the scope of
                > the IPTC Schemas as we
                > > know the Adobe Custom Panels are only *one* solution among *others*.
                >
                > I understand Michael, but:
                > - Adobe is the creator of XMP *and* the creator of custom panels
                > - IPTC Core custom panels are provided by IPTC on
                > http://www.iptc.org/IPTC4XMP/
                > this gives to custom panels a kind of "privilege" over other
                > implementations
                >
                > I do not understand very well why it could be allowed to code multiple
                > authors in Seq and not to be allowed to display all these authors.

                I had to get back to my files of the development work in 2004: The issue is that the old IIM representation of Creator in the image header does not hold more than one entry. So if one adds a second creator by a custom panel only the XMP version of the metadata holds the second one, while the IIM representation does not.

                To summarize:

                - at the level of XMP one to many creators may be applied, how this is displayed to the user is up to the maker of the user interface (Adobe custom panels have them in a single field, separated by a comma or a semicolon, other user interfaces may have more than one field.)

                - but the Adobe synchronisation engine synchronises only the first entry in a sequence back to the IIM metadata - while the IIM specifications would allow for more than one. But as multiple creators are not supported by the Adobe user interface for IIM metadata only (Photoshop versions prior to 7.1) this is in practice irrelevant.

                Michael



                > --
                > Patrick Peccatte
                > www.pixpalace.com
                > www.softexperience.com
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iptc-photometadata/
                >
                > <*> Your email settings:
                >     Individual Email | Traditional
                >
                > <*> To change settings online go to:
                >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iptc-photometadata/join
                >     (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
                > <*> To change settings via email:
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                >
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                >     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >


                ==================================================
                Sent by:
                Michael Steidl
                Managing Director of the IPTC <mdirector@...>
                International Press Telecommunications Council
                "Information Technology for News"
                Visit us on the web at  http://www.iptc.org
                 
              • Patrick Peccatte
                ... issue is that the old IIM ... than one entry. So if one ... metadata holds the ... is displayed to the user ... them in a single field, ... more than one
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 30 3:48 AM
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                  --- In iptc-photometadata@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Steidl (IPTC)"
                  <mdirector@...> wrote:

                  > I had to get back to my files of the development work in 2004: The
                  issue is that the old IIM
                  > representation of Creator in the image header does not hold more
                  than one entry. So if one
                  > adds a second creator by a custom panel only the XMP version of the
                  metadata holds the
                  > second one, while the IIM representation does not.
                  >
                  > To summarize:
                  >
                  > - at the level of XMP one to many creators may be applied, how this
                  is displayed to the user
                  > is up to the maker of the user interface (Adobe custom panels have
                  them in a single field,
                  > separated by a comma or a semicolon, other user interfaces may have
                  more than one field.)
                  >
                  > - but the Adobe synchronisation engine synchronises only the first
                  entry in a sequence back
                  > to the IIM metadata - while the IIM specifications would allow for
                  more than one. But as
                  > multiple creators are not supported by the Adobe user interface for
                  IIM metadata only
                  > (Photoshop versions prior to 7.1) this is in practice irrelevant.

                  Perfect
                  It could be interesting to write this explanation in the photometadata
                  document because Photoshop implementation is leading (even if IPTC
                  would prefer to stay "implementation-neutral" I suppose...)
                  --
                  Patrick Peccatte
                  www.pixpalace.com
                  www.softexperience.com
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