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Pre-Paid Legal -- A Pyramid Scheme With Catchy Name???

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  • oracleintl@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/1/2005 1:46:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Siedow@LawAndOrder.com writes: Sorry, guys, but I have to tout the Pre-Paid Legal guys again.
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 31, 2005
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      In a message dated 4/1/2005 1:46:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
      Siedow@... writes:

      Sorry, guys, but I have to tout the Pre-Paid Legal guys again. They will
      help even in these situations, and to a certain extent with pre-existing
      conditions. I love and support Michelle, but just wish I had been forceful enough
      to make her sign up for PPL. Still, while not everything is available to her
      under the plan and with her pre-existing situations, she could still get
      thousands of dollars of help for almost nothing. I feel like a loser for not
      being willing to push when I knew she was shortly going to need this help.




      Since my post was used as a springboard for this advertisement, let me point
      out that:

      1) Vickie is an "Independent Sales Associate" - if you go to the link she
      sent, you will note that it identifes you as her referral so if you join, she
      gets a commission

      2) Whereas she represents that Michelle would get benefits limited to
      thoiudands of dollars since this is a pre-existing matter, that is not what they
      say on their site - for pre-existing issues, they don't pay squat.

      Trial Defense Services: This benefit does not cover defense of the
      following: claims or charges relating to workers compensation, inquiries or actions by
      a government agency, bankruptcy or alcohol, drugs, substance abuse, chemical
      abuse or dependency; class actions, interventions, or amicus curiae filings
      or class actions filed in the business is a party or potential party;
      pre-existing conditions, defined as those acts which give rise to a lawsuit which
      are alleged to have occurred prior to the business' enrollment, regardless of
      the filing date of the lawsuit.

      3) IF this was not a pre-existing condition, the benefit is 75 HRS - MAX!
      After that, you get a 25% discount off whatever their standard rate is.


      The fact is, these people are being widely accused of running a pyramid
      scheme and I would advise you to read:

      _http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html_
      (http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html)

      Since I am currently working on an expose of these people to be posted to
      FraudsAndScams.com, it is unwise to use a post of mine as a spam springboard -
      especially to self-promote this particular alleged pyramid scheme.

      Bill E. Branscum, Investigator
      Oracle International
      _www.FraudsAndScams.com_ (http://www.FraudsAndScams.com)
      _www.OracleInternational.com_ (http://www.OracleInternational.com)
      PO Box 10728
      Naples, FL 34101
      (239) 304-1639
      (239) 304-1640 Fax
      Illegitimi non carborundum




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Vicki Siedow
      Tsk, Bill. So virulent! I m flattered! You ve been trying to pick one with me for some time, and just don t seem to understand that I don t want to fight
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 1, 2005
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        Tsk, Bill. So virulent! I'm flattered! You've been trying to pick one
        with me for some time, and just don't seem to understand that I don't want
        to fight with you. I'm not interested in the game. I don't have a problem
        with you, no matter how hard you keep trying. I also find it amusing that
        you've added this post to several lists that didn't get my original post,
        and to which I'm not subscribed. This seems to be a common tactic,
        grandstanding in ways that don't allow rebuttal. Reminds me of "The Great
        and Powerful Oz."

        I have never made a secret of the fact that I sell Pre-Paid Legal Services
        and Identity Theft Shield. You present it as if I'm tricking people into
        signing up on my site, not knowing I'm making commission. You then complain
        that I keep spouting off about it, and selling it. If there's one person
        left on these lists that didn't know that I was making money on this, let me
        clarify: I MAKE GOOD MONEY SELLING PRE-PAID LEGAL SERVICES AND IDENTITY
        THEFT SHIELD. Not that it's hard to sell, people need and want it more
        every day, and everyone who needs an Investigator needs legal advice as
        well. In case you later run into someone who doesn't know, you have my
        permission to repost this. Maybe they'll sign up. :)

        Michele and I did talk several times about this, and we did discuss her
        signing up for the services. She considered it and decided not to at that
        time. I didn't push it. Now I wish I had. That's true.

        Show me an insurance company that covers pre-existing conditions. Does your
        health insurance cover you when you've been diagnosed prior to signing up?
        Does your auto insurance cover that dent you already had? Well, Pre-Paid
        Legal does cover pre-existing conditions, it just doesn't give as much
        coverage. If Michele signed up today she'd still get all the phone
        consultations, letters & phone calls on her behalf, even on this
        pre-existing matter. Of course she'd get the full coverage on other
        matters, including Will preparation, traffic matters, DMV, IRS, etc. If the
        case were not pre-existing the coverage for the attorney hours at no cost
        would be 75 hours the first year, increasing each of the first 5 years up to
        295 hours. Her monthly premiums would never increase in her lifetime, no
        matter how much she used the plan. She'd also get, as you mention, a 25%
        discount on attorney fees. Considering that the coverage for her would run
        $26 a month, that still seems like a fair savings. In fact we often have
        people sign up with pre-existing conditions, just to get that discount.

        The real reason I know you're just trying to pick a fight with me is the
        pyramid scheme part. I recall an article you write that outlined what
        constituted a pyramid scheme as opposed to a MLM plan. I'm not the expert
        you are, but the simplified version is that the pyramid has no real product
        that is saleable in itself. A pyramid makes all its money on signing up new
        members.

        PPL sells just fine as a product, completely independent of the MLM aspect.
        It did so for years before MLM, and still does. In fact a friend of mine,
        Jim Oliver, just retired in February. He's a grouchy guy, used to drive a
        fork lift. Not much of a salesman sort. He started selling PPL because he
        wanted to take Saturdays off and go to his son's little League games. Jim
        had a contact that got him permission to set up a table in one of the CA
        State Prisons, in the guards' break room. He sat there and read the
        newspaper, and waited for the guards to ask him about the plan. He signed
        up about 2-3 a day. He eventually quit his job and started selling PPL in
        the break rooms for most of the CA State prisons, rotating between them. He
        worked, if you can call it that, 4 days a week, selling an average of 2-3
        plans a day. He did not recruit. He sold the plans himself. No downline
        to speak of, other than a couple of people who asked him to sign them up
        when they saw what he was making. They never did much, he made the sales
        himself. Anyhow, as I was saying, he retired in February with $10,000 a
        month in residual income from the plans he, personally, sold, selling 2-3 a
        day, 4 days a week, for 4 1/2 years.

        You're way too intelligent to think that every allegation made is true. Any
        person or company that's doing well, has fame, money or respect is going to
        attract some hits. There's probably a website out there that attempts to
        prove that Mother Teresa was a bad apple. Disney gets sued. I know, I
        worked with their legal team. Unfortunately it's a sign of success in our
        litigious society.

        Vicki Siedow
        Siedow & Associates Investigations
        & Custom Legal Support Services
        2629 Foothill Blvd. #262
        La Crescenta (Los Angeles area), CA 91214
        818-242-0130
        800-448-6431
        818-688-3295 fax
        Siedow@...
        http://Siedow.LawAndOrder.com
        CA Lic. PI #22852
        Member NCISS
        Need economical legal help?
        http://AreYouProtectedYet.com


        -----Original Message-----
        From: oracleintl@... [mailto:oracleintl@...]
        Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 11:37 PM
        To: New_Investigator@yahoogroups.com; FraudsAndScams@yahoogroups.com;
        1811@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com; Psy-CJ-Law@yahoogroups.com;
        TheProfessionalPI@yahoogroups.com; ASPI-members@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [infoguys-list] Pre-Paid Legal -- A Pyramid Scheme With Catchy
        Name???




        In a message dated 4/1/2005 1:46:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        Siedow@... writes:

        Sorry, guys, but I have to tout the Pre-Paid Legal guys again. They will
        help even in these situations, and to a certain extent with pre-existing
        conditions. I love and support Michelle, but just wish I had been forceful
        enough to make her sign up for PPL. Still, while not everything is
        available to her under the plan and with her pre-existing situations, she
        could still get
        thousands of dollars of help for almost nothing. I feel like a loser for
        not
        being willing to push when I knew she was shortly going to need this help.




        Since my post was used as a springboard for this advertisement, let me
        point out that:

        1) Vickie is an "Independent Sales Associate" - if you go to the link she
        sent, you will note that it identifes you as her referral so if you join,
        she gets a commission

        2) Whereas she represents that Michelle would get benefits limited to
        thoiudands of dollars since this is a pre-existing matter, that is not what
        they say on their site - for pre-existing issues, they don't pay squat.

        Trial Defense Services: This benefit does not cover defense of the
        following: claims or charges relating to workers compensation, inquiries or
        actions by a government agency, bankruptcy or alcohol, drugs, substance
        abuse, chemical abuse or dependency; class actions, interventions, or
        amicus curiae filings or class actions filed in the business is a party or
        potential party; pre-existing conditions, defined as those acts which give
        rise to a lawsuit which are alleged to have occurred prior to the business'
        enrollment, regardless of the filing date of the lawsuit.

        3) IF this was not a pre-existing condition, the benefit is 75 HRS - MAX!

        After that, you get a 25% discount off whatever their standard rate is.


        The fact is, these people are being widely accused of running a pyramid
        scheme and I would advise you to read:

        _http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html_
        (http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html)

        Since I am currently working on an expose of these people to be posted to
        FraudsAndScams.com, it is unwise to use a post of mine as a spam
        springboard - especially to self-promote this particular alleged pyramid
        scheme.

        Bill E. Branscum, Investigator
        Oracle International
        _www.FraudsAndScams.com_ (http://www.FraudsAndScams.com)
        _www.OracleInternational.com_ (http://www.OracleInternational.com)
        PO Box 10728
        Naples, FL 34101
        (239) 304-1639
        (239) 304-1640 Fax
        Illegitimi non carborundum


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      • Ricky Gurley
        ... First.. Let me say, that while I like Bill and think he is a very intelligent person, I think this particular post of his is utter nonsense. ... me point
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 1, 2005
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          --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, oracleintl@a... wrote:

          First.. Let me say, that while I like Bill and think he is a very
          intelligent person, I think this particular post of his is utter
          nonsense.


          > Since my post was used as a springboard for this advertisement, let
          me point
          > out that:
          >
          > 1) Vickie is an "Independent Sales Associate" - if you go to the
          link she
          > sent, you will note that it identifes you as her referral so if you
          join, she
          > gets a commission

          Yes.. Vickie has found a way to make money.. And she is aggressively
          doing what she is supposed to be doing to make her money.. So?
          >
          > 2) Whereas she represents that Michelle would get benefits limited
          to
          > thoiudands of dollars since this is a pre-existing matter, that is
          not what they
          > say on their site - for pre-existing issues, they don't pay squat.
          >
          > Trial Defense Services: This benefit does not cover defense of the
          > following: claims or charges relating to workers compensation,
          inquiries or actions by
          > a government agency, bankruptcy or alcohol, drugs, substance abuse,
          chemical
          > abuse or dependency; class actions, interventions, or amicus curiae
          filings
          > or class actions filed in the business is a party or potential
          party;
          > pre-existing conditions, defined as those acts which give rise to a
          lawsuit which
          > are alleged to have occurred prior to the business' enrollment,
          regardless of
          > the filing date of the lawsuit.

          Well there are limitations to all services.. Let's put it into
          perspective.. That is a limitation placed on a service that you pay
          next to nothing for.. 75 hours of legal services from attorneys with a
          minimum of four (4) years in the busienss for $40.00 or $50.00 a
          month. And you can use the service as much as you want..? I don't see
          that as a bad deal at all.. The retainer for an attonrey to handle
          your case would eat up 2 to 5 years of payments to prepaid legal, and
          that is just for one case.. I am not trying to promote prepaid legal,
          and I don't have prepaid legal, but I see NOTHING wrong with it... I
          liken it to insurance, in a way.
          >
          > 3) IF this was not a pre-existing condition, the benefit is 75 HRS
          - MAX!
          > After that, you get a 25% discount off whatever their standard rate
          is.

          Still not a bad deal.. But the hours progressively go up after you
          have had the service for over a year...


          > The fact is, these people are being widely accused of running a
          pyramid
          > scheme and I would advise you to read:
          >
          > _http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html_
          > (http://citizensforjustice.org/Pre_Paid_Legal/prepaid.html)

          I got accused of killing Kennedy yesterday by a friend.. And he may
          put a website up about it too.. Don't make it so... Anyone can build a
          webpage with accusations on it, Bill.. This is a service.. Correct me
          if I am wrong, but don't pyramid schemes have to have the potential to
          have an "end person" left "holding the bag" when the pyramid
          collapses?

          Her is an explanation I found on pyramid schemes:

          Pyramid Schemes

          In the classic "pyramid" scheme, participants attempt to make money
          solely by recruiting new participants into the program. The hallmark
          of these schemes is the promise of sky-high returns in a short period
          of time for doing nothing other than handing over your money and
          getting others to do the same.

          The fraudsters behind a pyramid scheme may go to great lengths to make
          the program look like a legitimate multi-level marketing program. But
          despite their claims to have legitimate products or services to sell,
          these fraudsters simply use money coming in from new recruits to pay
          off early stage investors. But eventually the pyramid will collapse.
          At some point the schemes get too big, the promoter cannot raise
          enough money from new investors to pay earlier investors, and many
          people lose their money.

          I don't see prepaid legal fitting that definition....


          > Since I am currently working on an expose of these people to be
          posted to
          > FraudsAndScams.com, it is unwise to use a post of mine as a spam
          springboard -

          Why? It is just another option that Vickie was trying to offer.. Of
          course she is going to try to make money with prepaid legal.. Given
          the opportunity, who would'nt?


          --
          Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
          "Columbia's Premiere Private Investigation's Company"


          2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203

          Phone: (636) 410-0251
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          you we learn to be unheard; and hence we hold
          the fate or our enemies in our hands....."

          Sun Tzu 500 B.C. "The Art Of War"



          It is not the critic who counts,
          not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles,
          or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
          The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
          arena.... who strives ..... who spends himself and who,
          at the worst, if fails, at least he fails while daring,
          so that his place shall never be with those cold and
          timid souls who knew neither victory or defeat.

          Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
        • ke1024b1
          ... Vicki, I don t know much about pre-paid legal, but interested in learning more. Please send me some info. With $225 hr avg attorney fees and the litigous
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 1, 2005
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            --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki Siedow" <Siedow@L...>

            Vicki,

            I don't know much about pre-paid legal, but interested in learning
            more. Please send me some info. With $225 hr avg attorney fees and
            the litigous society we live in, is certainly worth at least looking
            at.


            Thanks,

            *****************************************
            Kirsti Ekeholm,LPI
            Ekeholm and Associates, LLC
            Office: (770) 720-8343
            E-Mail: info@...
            Website: www.screensafecheck.com
            Georgia Private Detective License: # PDC001919
            ******************************************
          • Consulting Investigation Services
            ... From: Vicki Siedow [mailto:Siedow@LawAndOrder.com] Tsk, Bill. So virulent! I m flattered! You ve been trying to pick one with me for some time.. Ah
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 1, 2005
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: Vicki Siedow [mailto:Siedow@...]


              Tsk, Bill. So virulent! I'm flattered! You've been trying to pick one
              with me for some time..

              Ah shite Vicky, just let it go...
              (Snipped out a bunch of stuff)

              You wrote:
              "Show me an insurance company that covers pre-existing conditions. Does
              your health insurance cover you when you've been diagnosed prior to signing
              up? "

              Actually, Vicki, it is now the law that insurance companies cover
              pre-existing conditions if the insured can prove coverage for the same
              condition, with any form of insurance, for the previous 12 month period.
              (Medicaid and Medicare DO qualify as insurance coverage too)
              No break in coverage is allowed but the new insurance company is also not
              allowed to get a one year vacation on covering the condition, regardless of
              what it is, as long as there is proof of coverage for the preceding 12 month
              period.
              I might not know much about a lot of things, but believe me, with my medical
              bills for my son, I know about insurance and how to make them stand up and
              bark like the bitch dogs they are!

              As long as we're on the topic, I've been solicited to sell PPL. Once I got
              into the pitch room, you know, that separate room that the rep takes you
              into, so no one else can hear what it is goes on during the actual sign up
              process....yeah, that one, I made the comment that this all looked strangely
              like AmWay with a twist..oh, he didn't like that comment, made a smart
              remark and well you can guess how that meeting digressed from there knowing
              my temper. In short, it smelled like a giant scam to me back then and I've
              never been able to get over that slimy feeling I get whenever I hear about
              PPL or other gimmicky MLM schemes, no matter what they sell. The only
              pre-paid legal system I've ever seen work was the one we had back when I was
              a police officer called CLEAT (Combined Law Enforcement yada yada, I can't
              remember what the A and T stood for) those guys were a state pool for police
              officers, we paid dues and if you got into something and needed a lawyer, it
              was truly pre-paid. You're dues didn't go up, your representation was by
              attorneys that specialized in representing police officers and you didn't
              pay one dime to the lawyer, ever. The contract/agreement was about three
              paragraphs long too. I agreed to have them deduct a certain amount from my
              check, they agreed that as long as I was a member and I got sued or
              arrested, they would represent me. It was that simple. Anything that needs
              ten pages of finely typed, single spaced paper to cover always gives me that
              hinky feeling down at the base of my neck.........you know, that weird
              feeling you get when you know you're about to get poked in the eye but can't
              stop it.....yeah, that is what it is like.
              Have a great day, best of luck in selling that stuff........but it was a
              little tasteless to blatantly advertise using Michele (with whom I have no
              special love loss or anything) to boost it.
              Last thing, if Bill really wanted to pick a fight with you, he'd simply get
              on a plane and come to your house to argue his point, he doesn't need an
              underlying, concocted reason.........he's pretty up front about that sort of
              stuff.

              Brian K. Ingram, Owner
              Consulting Investigation Services
              Email Tracing/Internet &eBusiness Investigations
              Forensic Data Recovery, Catastrophic Event Investigations, Major Case
              Criminal Defense
              "Setting the New Standards in Private Investigations"
              brian@...
              www.cispi.net
              www.itraceemail.com
              Texas P.I. License A-8429
              972-937-3938
            • Vicki Siedow
              Happy to, Kirsti. Here s my link, I ll give you a ring, or you call me with questions. As you say, with the cost of attorneys, and the even higher cost of
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 1, 2005
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                Happy to, Kirsti. Here's my link, I'll give you a ring, or you call me with
                questions. As you say, with the cost of attorneys, and the even higher cost
                of not consulting one, this is a "must." As Investigators we absolutely
                must consult attorneys often. Since Teri Shiavo everyone wants a Will, and
                a Living Will. Since ChoicePoint & BofA, the Identity Theft Shield is in
                huge demand because it includes restoration of your identity. Our clients
                all need legal advice, and I prefer that they get it from a qualified
                attorney, not from me. I also prefer that they have enough money left over
                to hire me. It's win/win.

                http://AreYouProtectedYet.com


                Vicki Siedow
                Siedow & Associates Investigations
                & Custom Legal Support Services
                2629 Foothill Blvd. #262
                La Crescenta (Los Angeles area), CA 91214
                818-242-0130
                800-448-6431
                818-688-3295 fax
                Siedow@...
                http://Siedow.LawAndOrder.com
                CA Lic. PI #22852
                Member NCISS
                Need economical legal help?
                http://AreYouProtectedYet.com


                -----Original Message-----
                From: ke1024b1 [mailto:kekeholm@...]
                Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 12:51 PM
                To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [infoguys-list] Pre-Paid Legal -- Send Info




                --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki Siedow" <Siedow@L...>

                Vicki,

                I don't know much about pre-paid legal, but interested in learning more.
                Please send me some info. With $225 hr avg attorney fees and the litigous
                society we live in, is certainly worth at least looking at.


                Thanks,

                *****************************************
                Kirsti Ekeholm,LPI
                Ekeholm and Associates, LLC
                Office: (770) 720-8343
                E-Mail: info@...
                Website: www.screensafecheck.com
                Georgia Private Detective License: # PDC001919
                ******************************************


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