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remark: Internet detective software?

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  • Ettisch-EnchelmaierGmbH2@t-online.de
    Hi! Your comment At the moment, it would be a moot point to try to get my money back. I didn t really pay for it, so why bother with the time and
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 9, 2005
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      Hi!

      Your comment """"At the moment, it would be a moot point to try
      to get my money back. I didn't really pay for it, so why bother
      with the time and expense? """"

      Legally you did not do anything wrong, since you paid the money
      you got from your customer with the customer's consent.

      HOWEVER, this is a difference between a person thinking like you
      and an ethically acting person (here: PI). WHAT difference?

      Your customer's money should be at least as dear to you as yours
      if not even more so, since you are your customer's guardian of
      money, interest etc.

      To all: a nice weekend and week from Germany.
      Author of a PI book: http://www.pimall.com/nais/successfulpi.html
      http://ettisch.euro-detectives.org
      M. Ettisch-Enchelmaier, B.A., President, CEO ISBN: 1-891247-59-X
      Ettisch-Enchelmaier GmbH SINCE 19-SEVENTY-TWO
      Bodelschwinghstr. 9/67246 Dirmstein/Germany
      Tel. (+49 6238)989 098, Fax. (+49 6238)989099 + (+49 6238)1313
    • Danny Stone
      Hello. I don t appreciate being called unethical because I followed my client s instructions to the letter. No, I didn t check the company out. Be that as it
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 9, 2005
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        Hello.

        I don't appreciate being called unethical because I followed my client's instructions to the letter. No, I didn't check the company out. Be that as it may, until now (two years after the fact), there was no reason to.

        I do agree that how you spend a client's money is very important. However, one is obligated to follow-through on contracts, even verbal ones. My word is my bond -- without it, all the rest is a smoke-screen, and meaningless in the final analysis.

        To take your statement literally, two-years after being frauded, I'm supposed to spend potentially hundreds of dollars (thousands?) to re-gain a loss of $30, and risk losing a good client because his records just went public? Explain to me why I'm potentially damaging my client as any "dirty laundry" he might have gets aired?

        We have a Code of Ethics in my primary class. Two of its tenants read:

        "As a private investigator, I will always respect the wishes of my client except in serious criminal findings, the nature of which I am legally bound to disclose to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

        "As a private investigator, I know that no one is more professionally important to me than my client. I will serve my client with honesty, integrity, loyalty and dispatch with legally proper and thoroughly dedicated, proficient and professional demeanor."

        Client comes first, period. From a strictly ethical vantage point, I am obligated to return his $30 now that I have the facts. My contract with him stated that the $30 expense was not optional, and was a provision for continued work. The only way I know to get around this one would be to simply not bill him for $30 worth of work at some point, but is that acceptable? Or is that lying to a client? Weird dilemma between common sense and ethics here... Any suggestions from you fine folks would be greatly appreciated.

        Danny Stone
        Research Specialist

        Ettisch-EnchelmaierGmbH2@... wrote:
        HOWEVER, this is a difference between a person thinking like you and an ethically acting person (here: PI). WHAT difference?


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      • oracleintl@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/10/2005 9:33:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, willgetthefacts@yahoo.com writes: I don t appreciate being called unethical because I followed
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
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          In a message dated 1/10/2005 9:33:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          willgetthefacts@... writes:

          I don't appreciate being called unethical because I followed my client's
          instructions to the letter. No, I didn't check the company out. Be that as it
          may, until now (two years after the fact), there was no reason to.



          I didn't offer an opinion, as I did not, and do not, think that there is any
          point debating the relative merits of a $30 expense, and I have had no
          experience with that software, but this has evolved into a debate related to
          ethical issues which I do believe warrant comment.

          With regard to your basic position, I would tend to agree with you, but I
          think Miriam's objection is based more on the way you expressed your point
          rather than the underlying issue. I personally think that Miriam's "nit picking"
          in this regard does us all a good service as we should always be careful how
          we express the points we endeavor to make.

          With regard to the underlying issue (was the $30 expense reasonable), I see
          the viability of the software itself as being irrelevant. In this business,
          we spend Client funds every day on the chance that we will derive useful
          information - sometimes we do, and sometimes we do not. Such is the nature of
          our business.

          If a Client wants me to check the Lexis news database, or run a criminal
          history, they will pay me for my time, as well as a fee for the access to the
          database, whether we develop anything useful or not. I am not going to
          discount my time, or go back and try to get that fee discounted just because I did
          not get the results I hoped for - even if there were newspaper reports that
          Lexis did not index, or criminal records that were not retrievable thru the
          sources I used.

          Whether the Client directed your efforts, or not, is also irrelevant in my
          view -- which is not to suggest that I doubt your side of the story. If you
          spent Client funds in a good faith effort to advance the Client's interests,
          as I have no doubt that you did, you met your responsibility to your Client.
          Good Faith is completely subjective - what you knew or believed at the time
          of your action is something that none of us can second guess, and your "due
          diligence" responsibility is defined by the expense involved.

          I can assure you that that I am not going to spend hours of my time doing
          due diligence research prior to expending $30, and I think a Client would have a
          legitimate complaint if I charged them $250 for time I expended trying to
          determine whether their $30 would be well spent. That's completely ridiculous.

          Nor do I believe that anyone can say that you had a basic obligation to
          "know better." Since the debate began, I see that some people report that they
          have found the software to be of some limited use, which may be consonant with
          the expense involved.

          In my view, the problem is the way in which you explained your position.
          While that would not be worth addressing if we were in the landscape business,
          we must all keep in mind that wonderfully well done investigative work can
          "self destruct" if we do not articulate it properly.

          In defending yourself, and supporting your position, the suggestion to the
          effect that you were less concerned since it was Client money sounded rather
          "improper," even to me - and I am not nearly the deacon of propriety that
          Miriam is. I suspect that this "remark" was probably not something you would have
          said in more formal circumstances.

          I do not think that Miriam intended her reply as an allegation that you are
          "unethical," so much as a reminder that your remark sounded unethical - but
          since Miriam and I have not discussed the point, I'll not put words in her
          mouth.

          Bill E. Branscum, Investigator
          Oracle International
          _www.FraudsAndScams.com_ (http://www.FraudsAndScams.com)
          _www.OracleInternational.com_ (http://www.OracleInternational.com)
          PO Box 10728
          Naples, FL 34101
          (239) 304-1639
          (239) 304-1640 Fax
          Illegitimi non carborundum

          Disclaimer

          I am not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV. You may or may not
          construe this post to be legal advice; frankly, you may construe it to be the
          Holy Grail for all I care. It is my considered, and fervently held "Darwinian"
          opinion that anyone who looks to posts on the Internet for legal guidance and
          direction is far too stupid to deserve to survive.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vicki Siedow
          OK, this is getting ridiculous. We all agree that NetDetective is guilty of false advertising, and not worth buying. I made a comment about it being too bad
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
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            OK, this is getting ridiculous. We all agree that NetDetective is guilty of
            false advertising, and not worth buying. I made a comment about it being
            too bad that it wasn't worth most people's time to go through hoops to get a
            $30 refund, so I guess I'm guilty of perpetuating this war. My comment was
            more philosophical in nature. I think it's unfortunate that NetDetective
            can get away with ripping off people on a huge scale, simply because they
            are successfully walking the fence between what's really right and what
            would get them really nailed. One thing's for sure, they sure aren't worth
            this much of this list serve's time.

            Please be nice to Miriam, she's a brilliant lady and a sweetie, and probably
            meant her comments in a philosophical way, similar to mine.

            Let's calm things down and talk about something less controversial, like
            politics or religion.


            Vicki Siedow
            Siedow & Associates Investigations
            & Custom Legal Support Services
            2629 Foothill Blvd. #262
            La Crescenta (Los Angeles area), CA 91214
            818-242-0130
            800-448-6431
            818-688-3295 fax
            Siedow@...
            http://Siedow.LawAndOrder.com
            CA Lic. PI #22852
            Need economical legal help?
            http://AreYouProtectedYet.com


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Danny Stone [mailto:willgetthefacts@...]
            Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:38 PM
            To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] remark: Internet detective software?



            Hello.

            I don't appreciate being called unethical because I followed my client's
            instructions to the letter. No, I didn't check the company out. Be that as
            it may, until now (two years after the fact), there was no reason to.

            I do agree that how you spend a client's money is very important. However,
            one is obligated to follow-through on contracts, even verbal ones. My word
            is my bond -- without it, all the rest is a smoke-screen, and meaningless in
            the final analysis.

            To take your statement literally, two-years after being frauded, I'm
            supposed to spend potentially hundreds of dollars (thousands?) to re-gain a
            loss of $30, and risk losing a good client because his records just went
            public? Explain to me why I'm potentially damaging my client as any "dirty
            laundry" he might have gets aired?

            We have a Code of Ethics in my primary class. Two of its tenants read:

            "As a private investigator, I will always respect the wishes of my client
            except in serious criminal findings, the nature of which I am legally bound
            to disclose to the appropriate law enforcement agency.

            "As a private investigator, I know that no one is more professionally
            important to me than my client. I will serve my client with honesty,
            integrity, loyalty and dispatch with legally proper and thoroughly
            dedicated, proficient and professional demeanor."

            Client comes first, period. From a strictly ethical vantage point, I am
            obligated to return his $30 now that I have the facts. My contract with him
            stated that the $30 expense was not optional, and was a provision for
            continued work. The only way I know to get around this one would be to
            simply not bill him for $30 worth of work at some point, but is that
            acceptable? Or is that lying to a client? Weird dilemma between common
            sense and ethics here... Any suggestions from you fine folks would be
            greatly appreciated.

            Danny Stone
            Research Specialist

            Ettisch-EnchelmaierGmbH2@... wrote:
            HOWEVER, this is a difference between a person thinking like you and an
            ethically acting person (here: PI). WHAT difference?



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          • Danny Stone
            I was about to suggest that we start chatting about Death or Taxes, but you beat me to the punch... : ) Danny Stone Research Specialist Vicki Siedow
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
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              I was about to suggest that we start chatting about Death or Taxes, but you beat me to the punch... :>)

              Danny Stone
              Research Specialist

              Vicki Siedow <Siedow@...> wrote:
              Let's calm things down and talk about something less controversial, like
              politics or religion.


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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Danny Stone
              This whole thing has been blown out of proportion, and I take part of the blame. I always try to do what s right, but that s subjective after-the-fact. My
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
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                This whole thing has been blown out of proportion, and I take part of the blame. I always try to do what's right, but that's subjective after-the-fact.

                My apologies to all, as I was defending what is now pretty much a moot point. The software has helped me save my clients a few bucks, and that's it. Most of the data I could have found in other sources; be that as it may, it acts as a catalyst for me to connect the dots between unrelated data a little faster than normal. This is for me, and only me that I'm talking about -- I cannot say if it will be useful to anyone else.

                Miriam, I misread the intent of your message. And Bill, you're right -- I did over-react, and the way I put it is improper and unprofessional, which is definitely not how I do business. Please accept my apologies, and I'll try to make sure in the future that there is a lot more thought involved before my typing skills are utilized...


                >>I am not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV. You may or >>may not construe this post to be legal advice; frankly, you may >>construe it to be the Holy Grail for all I care. It is my >>considered, and fervently held "Darwinian" opinion that anyone >>who looks to posts on the Internet for legal guidance and
                >>direction is far too stupid to deserve to survive.


                I like that. I really like that...

                Danny Stone
                Research Specialist


                oracleintl@... wrote:

                I didn't offer an opinion, as I did not, and do not, think that there is any point debating the relative merits of a $30 expense, and I have had no experience with that software, but this has evolved into a debate related to
                ethical issues which I do believe warrant comment.

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              • Marvin Woodworth
                I am in the process of renewing my agency insurance. Would like to get the feed back from other agent on who they are using and the rates. Thanks Marvin
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 10, 2005
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                  I am in the process of renewing my agency insurance.
                  Would like to get the feed back from other agent on
                  who they are using and the rates.

                  Thanks
                  Marvin Woodworth
                  Investigation Service Inc.
                  Stealth Reseach Security Agency

                  www.stealthagency.com




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                • divmastr95@aol.com
                  _http://www.eldoradoinsurance.com/_ (http://www.eldoradoinsurance.com/) Ira M. Lockhart Chief Investigator _InvestigativeSecuritySolutions.com_
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 11, 2005
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                    _http://www.eldoradoinsurance.com/_ (http://www.eldoradoinsurance.com/)


                    Ira M. Lockhart
                    Chief Investigator
                    _InvestigativeSecuritySolutions.com_
                    (http://www.investigativesecuritysolutions.com/)
                    (813) 477-6861 (Office) - (813) 907-8296 (Fax)





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • DURWOOD G BRADSHAW
                    I HAVE TRIED AND PAID FOR THAT SOFTWARE I ASKED FOR A REFUND NO LUCK THE SOFTWARE IS NOT WAS PROMISED BY THE COMPANY SELLING IT THANKS DURWOOD BRADSHAW 27
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 11, 2005
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                      I HAVE TRIED AND PAID FOR THAT SOFTWARE I ASKED FOR A REFUND NO LUCK THE
                      SOFTWARE IS NOT WAS PROMISED BY THE COMPANY SELLING IT THANKS

                      DURWOOD BRADSHAW 27 HAVERFORD CT HAMPTON VA 23666-5749
                    • Thomas W. Nunnally
                      Danny, OK I ve opened this digest again for I don t remember how many days in a row, only to find it filled with Internet detective software? remarks. Let it
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 11, 2005
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                        Danny, OK I've opened this digest again for I don't remember how many
                        days in a row, only to find it filled with "Internet detective
                        software?" remarks. Let it die, man. I think they are only trying to
                        make a point about referring the software as you did in you first
                        response to the original person that requested responses. They are just
                        trying to keep someone else from wasting that $30.00 or whatever it is
                        now. I have only been a "Licensed Private Investigator" for three years,
                        so it is easy for me to remember feeling like you about those type
                        programs and websites when I was a "Newbie". I put emphasis on the
                        Licensed Investigator part, because I am very proud of that. Not so much
                        that I passed a state mandatory 10 Week Investigation Course, or that I
                        have certificates from other continued education courses during that
                        three year period, but the fact that I have remained a 40 hr. a week, at
                        the very least, licensed Investigator for that period. Meaning myself
                        and others like me, make our living finding people and possessions. And
                        if this tool was as good as you think it is, instead of reading requests
                        in this forum for help with a particular skip trace, asset location or
                        vehicle identification, you would read a request like, " Anyone have a
                        copy of "Net Detective" I can borrow?" Trust me when I say, the two
                        people in this group that you are having the most problems with, are the
                        two that I have seen here giving honest opinions, although sometime
                        blunt and always comical, on more than one occasion. You would be amazed
                        how much I have learned in this and other groups, by usually sitting
                        back and listening. You have heard the old saying, "Sometimes it's
                        better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you are ignorant,
                        than to open it and prove it."

                        Best Wishes,

                        Thomas W. Nunnally
                        Get Smart Investigations
                        P.O. Box 417
                        Cumming, Ga. 30028
                        Office (770)886-9211
                        Fax   (770)886-5851
                        getsmart03@...
                        Ga. P.I. License # PDC 0002163
                      • George
                        I just wanted to say that I have read this post, and similar ones here about refund problems with Net Detective and other Internet detective software, and
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 13, 2005
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                          I just wanted to say that I have read this post, and similar
                          ones here about refund problems with Net Detective and other
                          Internet detective software, and fortunately that has not been my
                          experience! I purchased my Net Detective software from a company in
                          Canada (unnamed) who offered a firm 90-day guarantee; I purchased
                          the software from that company on that basis using my Mastercard.
                          When I attempted to utilize the software for the address search that
                          I posted about here a couple of weeks ago, I rapidly learned of
                          its'worthless value myself as is common knowledge at this site! I
                          sent an E-Mail to the company yesterday requesting my refund, citing
                          their advertised guarantee and stating that I was dis-satisfied with
                          their product! I got a return E-Mail for the company back today
                          (one day later) confirming the refund and their credit to my
                          Mastercard account! Of course, I had the upper hand all along in my
                          ability to simply dispute the charge (within 60 days) through the
                          credit card company. I guess the moral to all of this is don't buy
                          Net Detective, but if you do, buy it from a company that advertises
                          a money-back guarantee, and use your credit card! Glad I did
                          something
                          right!!









                          --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, DURWOOD G BRADSHAW
                          <DGBRAD2@J...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I HAVE TRIED AND PAID FOR THAT SOFTWARE I ASKED FOR A REFUND NO
                          LUCK THE
                          > SOFTWARE IS NOT WAS PROMISED BY THE COMPANY SELLING IT THANKS
                          >
                          > DURWOOD BRADSHAW 27 HAVERFORD CT HAMPTON VA 23666-5749
                        • loveybody@wmconnect.com
                          THANK YOU for your info.. I need a program that will help with investigating, names , places by dr #, ss#. and so on . Do you recommend any. Thanks again, the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 15, 2005
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                            THANK YOU for your info.. I need a program that will help with investigating,
                            names , places by dr #, ss#. and so on . Do you recommend any. Thanks again,
                            the reason is I am also trying to locate my half brother, I have been
                            searching and paying for searches which were ripoffs by the way. Do you know who can
                            help me? I have been trying for almost 10 years off and on. If you have any
                            information feel free to elaborate. Thanks again. I am in Florida so if you
                            can help bless you.

                            Sincerely,

                            Loveybody


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • JSTONELAKE@AOL.COM
                            In my spare time I search for lost friends as well as family with great success. If you would like me to help you may email me back. I have had great success
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 17, 2005
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                              In my spare time I search for lost friends as well as family with great
                              success.
                              If you would like me to help you may email me back. I have had great success
                              except for sealed adoption records. But there are bulletin boards that you can
                              place your information on as well as read them for his post trying to locate
                              you.
                              Sincerely, Joseph Stonelake Retired Citizen
                              Roanoke Va.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • lorraine bennett
                              My name is Lorraine K Bennet of Clark Fork idaho PI. I have been in Nevada for the last two months but if you email back I could still help you some
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 25, 2005
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                                My name is Lorraine K Bennet of Clark Fork idaho PI. I have been in Nevada for the last two months but if you email back I could still help you some electronically. Just ask me what and if I can find it for free I'll e you back. If it is a pay service I will send that company's information for your review.
                                I'm just tied up in this state for awhile and I miss the work but in Nevada there are different laws from Idaho and all I can do is free help or referral for now.
                                Okay?
                                Rain


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                              • mkitty2.1@netzero.net
                                Hi I live in Arizona and I have alot of info on someone but I need the top two (you can t have) items and no access. I would be happy to pay you something
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 26, 2005
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                                  Hi I live in Arizona and I have alot of info on someone but I need the top two (you can't have) items and no access. I would be happy to pay you something if you can access,,,,
                                  AZ drivers license #
                                  Social Security #
                                  AZ license plate lookup

                                  I would love for you to respond, I have been through all the internet detective sites and I just need a PI license to get in and I already graduated from High School and that was enough for me so I say kudos to investigators.

                                  Mindy mkitty2.1@...
                                • loveybody@wmconnect.com
                                  If you can help me I will be ever grateful. I tried this internet detective down load soft ware and got no where. Can you help me learn how to use it also.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Feb 2, 2005
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                                    If you can help me I will be ever grateful. I tried this internet detective
                                    down load soft ware and got no where. Can you help me learn how to use it
                                    also. before I give you any info on the person I am looking for explain how you
                                    can find some one i nFlorida from your location. ok


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • mkitty2.1@netzero.net
                                    I was always told if you do not have anything nice to say do not say anything at all. So if you would like my opinion you can email me direct and I would be
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Feb 3, 2005
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                                      I was always told if you do not have anything nice to say do not say anything at all. So if you would like my opinion you can email me direct and I would be glad to give you the details I have encountered with the so called detective software. In short, there is a reason that investigators get paid to do what they do and if you can get a refund I would suggest you do as soon as possible before they tell you it is too late. I am just a consumer that learned the hard way, IT AINT WORTH PAYING MONEY FOR.................................
                                      mkitty2.1@...
                                      Hire a professional or email me and I can tell you what sites are free, but you just flat out cannot get alot of info without a pro.
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