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The Trojan Check

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  • RickyG
    Hello all, Getting ready to put up a blog post on the legalities of the Trojan Check . Some say it it a criminal violation under GLB to use a Trojan Check ,
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
      Hello all,

      Getting ready to put up a blog post on the legalities of the "Trojan Check". Some say it it a criminal violation under GLB to use a "Trojan Check", some say not.

      I have already communicated with a person who's opinion I trust on this issue, and I believe that his opinion is correct on this issue. But this is not about my opinion, it is more about getting other people's opinions..

      So, if you'd like to offer your opinion on the legalities of the "Trojan Check", please do.

      If you don't mind having your opinion anonymously published on my blog, please indicate that you don't mind, if you do please indicate you do.

      So, if you have something to offer on this topic, let me hear from you.

      Thank you all for your time.


      Ricky Gurley.


      --
      Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc. & Thoth Data Systems
      Agency License Number: 2011001124
      Private Investigator License Number: 2011001072

      Mailing Address: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
      Office Address: 1 E. Broadway Suite Z, Columbia, MO. 65203

      Direct Office Number: (573) 234-6876
      Office Phone: (573) 234-4647 Ext. 110
      Car Phone: (573) 529-0808
      Cell Phone: (573) 529-4476
      Toll Free Phone: (888) 571-0958
      Toll Free Fax: (877) 795-9800
      EMERGENCY LINE: (573) 234-4871

      RMRI, Inc. Websites
      (1) http://www.rmriinc.com
      (2) http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com

      RMRI, Inc. Blogs
      (1) http://rmriinc.blogspot.com/index.html
      (2) http://rmriincspace.spaces.live.com/
    • suesarkis@aol.com
      Rick - Of course using a Trojan Check is a violation of federal law. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which many of us vigorously and vehemently fought, left no
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
        Rick -

        Of course using a Trojan Check is a violation of federal law. The
        Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which many of us vigorously and vehemently fought, left no
        loopholes for us to hide behind.

        15 USC 6821 clearly states that it is a felony (15 USC 6823) to attempt to
        obtain or successfully obtain customer information using any false
        pretense. It can't be much clearer than that. Remember, it was members of our
        own industry that educated Congress and the FTC the various ways we discover
        such information. They (Congress), in turn, made sure they covered every
        loophole.

        Now, if anyone here believes for one second that a Trojan Check is not a
        false pretense, go get your head examined. Better yet, buy my bridge. All
        ruses and pretexts are forbidden.

        If my memory serves me correctly, however, there are exemptions for "child
        support" back payment recovery but even for those cases, I believe a
        specific court order is required.


        Sincerely yours,
        Sue
        ________________________
        Sue Sarkis
        Sarkis Detective Agency

        (est. 1976)
        PI 6564
        _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

        1346 Ethel Street
        Glendale, CA 91207-1826
        818-242-2505

        "one Nation under God" and "in GOD we TRUST"

        If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English,
        thank a military veteran


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • oracleintl@aol.com
        Thanks for your opinion Sue, but it s just an opinion and I disagree. I can tell you that a diligent search reveals no GLB related cases having anything to
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
          Thanks for your opinion Sue, but it's just an opinion and I disagree.

          I can tell you that a diligent search reveals no GLB related cases having
          anything to do with trojan checks.

          Now, if you think you can get the government to make a case, I'll just
          confess. Really, tell them that you have identified a habitual offender with
          no intention of changing his ways - I'll sign a confession.

          You are entitled to your interpretation of "pretext" but I see no support
          for it. If I send you a check, there is nothing pretextual about it and
          you cash it, or not, knowing that if you do I will be able to see where it
          was cashed as part of the normal course of business.

          Bill E. Branscum, Investigator
          Oracle International
          Naples, FL 34101
          (239) 304-1639 V
          (239) 304-1640 F
          (239) 641-6782 C
          _www.FraudsAndScams.com_ (http://www.FraudsAndScams.com)





          In a message dated 2/8/2011 3:39:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          suesarkis@... writes:





          Rick -

          Of course using a Trojan Check is a violation of federal law. The
          Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which many of us vigorously and vehemently fought,
          left no
          loopholes for us to hide behind.

          15 USC 6821 clearly states that it is a felony (15 USC 6823) to attempt to
          obtain or successfully obtain customer information using any false
          pretense. It can't be much clearer than that. Remember, it was members of
          our
          own industry that educated Congress and the FTC the various ways we
          discover
          such information. They (Congress), in turn, made sure they covered every
          loophole.

          Now, if anyone here believes for one second that a Trojan Check is not a
          false pretense, go get your head examined. Better yet, buy my bridge. All
          ruses and pretexts are forbidden.

          If my memory serves me correctly, however, there are exemptions for "child
          support" back payment recovery but even for those cases, I believe a
          specific court order is required.


          Sincerely yours,
          Sue
          ________________________
          Sue Sarkis
          Sarkis Detective Agency

          (est. 1976)
          PI 6564
          _www.sarkispi.com_ (_http://www.sarkispi.com/_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/) )

          1346 Ethel Street
          Glendale, CA 91207-1826
          818-242-2505

          "one Nation under God" and "in GOD we TRUST"

          If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English,
          thank a military veteran

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RickyG
          Sue, I am just looking for opinions.. Not really trying to start a debate (and we all know that most of the time I AM trying to start a debate when I post
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
            Sue,

            I am just looking for opinions.. Not really trying to start a debate (and we all know that most of the time I AM trying to start a debate when I post here). Of course though, a debate on this topic may actually be beneficial to some people. But I'd like to inject some information as we go along here, anyway...

            First, Most people "quote" GLB and have never read it... To me, the proof of that is when someone says or posts something like this: "Well GLB states that you can not use a pretext for a customer's financial information". And I know, because I HAVE read GLB that the word "pretext" is nowhere in GLB. But, the word "False Pretenses" IS.

            Second, GLB DOES clearly outline the definition of "False Pretenses":
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Subtitle B, Section 521(a)(2), which states:

            SEC. 521. PRIVACY PROTECTION FOR CUSTOMER INFORMATION OF FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

            (a) PROHIBITION ON OBTAINING CUSTOMER INFORMATION BY FALSE PRETENSES.—It shall be a violation of this subtitle for any person to obtain or attempt to obtain, or cause to be disclosed or attempt to cause to be disclosed to any person, customer information of a financial institution relating to another person—

            (1) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation to an officer, employee, or agent of a financial institution;

            (2) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation to a customer of a financial institution; or

            (3) by providing any document to an officer, employee, or agent of a financial institution, knowing that the document is forged, counterfeit, lost, or stolen, was fraudulently obtained, or contains a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation.
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            And third, the Federal Government has in fact known about the "Trojan Check" since at least 2005, and I can find no prosecution for it nowhere, no matter how much I search.

            Here is how I know that the Federal Government has been aware of the "Trojan Check" since 2005:

            In 2005 as you can read here in Robert Douglas's Testimony before The United State Senate Committee on the Judiciary: http://bit.ly/i0QtaX where he states:
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            "Another method that is becoming more common is the use of a "Trojan check". An investigator or broker will create a fictitious business name and open a checking account in that business name. A small check will be mailed to the target as a "rebate" or "prize" stamped on the back "for deposit only". Once the check has been deposited and is returned to the fictitious company the banking information obtained on the back of the check can be used to further the pretext to determine the amount of funds held in the account. There is great debate in the investigative and broker communities as to the legality of this practice given Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the deceptive trade practices statutes. While the debate continues, so does the practice."
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            Now this is not meant to be argumentative, it is just more information to consider before anyone gives their opinion or revises their opinion.


            Ricky Gurley.


            --
            Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc. & Thoth Data Systems
            Agency License Number: 2011001124
            Private Investigator License Number: 2011001072

            Mailing Address: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
            Office Address: 1 E. Broadway Suite Z, Columbia, MO. 65203

            Direct Office Number: (573) 234-6876
            Office Phone: (573) 234-4647 Ext. 110
            Car Phone: (573) 529-0808
            Cell Phone: (573) 529-4476
            Toll Free Phone: (888) 571-0958
            Toll Free Fax: (877) 795-9800
            EMERGENCY LINE: (573) 234-4871

            RMRI, Inc. Websites
            (1) http://www.rmriinc.com
            (2) http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com

            RMRI, Inc. Blogs
            (1) http://rmriinc.blogspot.com/index.html
            (2) http://rmriincspace.spaces.live.com/




            --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, suesarkis@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > Rick -
            >
            > Of course using a Trojan Check is a violation of federal law. The
            > Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which many of us vigorously and vehemently fought, left no
            > loopholes for us to hide behind.
            >
            > 15 USC 6821 clearly states that it is a felony (15 USC 6823) to attempt to
            > obtain or successfully obtain customer information using any false
            > pretense. It can't be much clearer than that. Remember, it was members of our
            > own industry that educated Congress and the FTC the various ways we discover
            > such information. They (Congress), in turn, made sure they covered every
            > loophole.
            >
            > Now, if anyone here believes for one second that a Trojan Check is not a
            > false pretense, go get your head examined. Better yet, buy my bridge. All
            > ruses and pretexts are forbidden.
            >
            > If my memory serves me correctly, however, there are exemptions for "child
            > support" back payment recovery but even for those cases, I believe a
            > specific court order is required.
            >
            >
            > Sincerely yours,
            > Sue
            > ________________________
            > Sue Sarkis
            > Sarkis Detective Agency
            >
            > (est. 1976)
            > PI 6564
            > _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)
            >
            > 1346 Ethel Street
            > Glendale, CA 91207-1826
            > 818-242-2505
            >
            > "one Nation under God" and "in GOD we TRUST"
            >
            > If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English,
            > thank a military veteran
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • suesarkis@aol.com
            Bill - At the hearings the FTC made it loud and clear as to the intent and enforcement of the law. Now, I agree in part. If I walk into a bakery, make a
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
              Bill -

              At the hearings the FTC made it loud and clear as to the intent and
              enforcement of the law.

              Now, I agree in part. If I walk into a bakery, make a purchase, and pay
              by check, of course the bakery's banking information is going to be on the
              check and nothing is wrong with that transaction.

              However, if the subject of an investigation that I have been hired to find
              out information on owns that bakery and it is not a place where I have ever
              been before, I believe a case could be made against me based on the clear
              and unambiguous wording of the law. By tendering the check with the true
              intent of obtaining the bank account information from the bank on this
              subject, I believe that I have provided a document under false pretenses and
              representation. That doesn't mean I would not defend myself in total accord
              with your statement.

              HOWEVER, in going over and reading what I just copied to insert in here, I
              do see and had forgotten that not only are there exemptions (located
              elsewhere) regarding backpay on child support, anyone working as an agent of an
              insurance institution is also exempt for certain types of investigations
              which would include all of the ones we'd be involved with. My having
              forgotten about that truly pisses me off since I've seriously looked over my
              shoulder a heck of a lot over the past 2 years for a couple of cases I worked.
              Shoot, I'm home free.


              SEC. 521. PRIVACY PROTECTION FOR CUSTOMER INFORMATION OF FINANCIAL
              INSTITUTIONS.
              (a) PROHIBITION ON OBTAINING CUSTOMER INFORMATION BY FALSE PRETENSES.—It
              shall be a violation of this subtitle for any person to obtain or attempt to
              obtain, or cause to be disclosed or attempt to cause to be disclosed to
              any person, customer information of a financial institution relating to
              another person—
              (1) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or
              representation to an officer, employee, or agent of a financial institution;
              (2) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or
              representation to a customer of a financial institution; or
              (3) by providing any document to an officer, employee, or agent of a
              financial institution, knowing that the document is forged, counterfeit, lost,
              or stolen, was fraudulently obtained, or contains a false, fictitious, or
              fraudulent statement or representation.
              (b) PROHIBITION ON SOLICITATION OF A PERSON TO OBTAIN CUSTOMER INFORMATION
              FROM FINANCIAL INSTITUTION UNDER FALSE PRETENSES.—It shall be a violation
              of this subtitle to request
              a person to obtain customer information of a financial institution,
              knowing that the person will obtain, or attempt to obtain, the information from
              the institution in any manner described in subsection (a).
              (c) NONAPPLICABILITY TO LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.—No provision of this
              section shall be construed so as to prevent any action by a law enforcement
              agency, or any officer, employee, or
              agent of such agency, to obtain customer information of a financial
              institution in connection with the performance of the official duties of the
              agency.
              (d) NONAPPLICABILITY TO FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS IN CERTAIN CASES.—No
              provision of this section shall be construed so as to prevent any financial
              institution, or any officer, employee, or agent of a financial institution, from
              obtaining customer information of such financial institution in the course
              of—
              (1) testing the security procedures or systems of such institution for
              maintaining the confidentiality of customer information;
              (2) investigating allegations of misconduct or negligence on the part of
              any officer, employee, or agent of the financial institution; or
              (3) recovering customer information of the financial institution which was
              obtained or received by another person in any manner described in
              subsection (a) or (b).
              (e) NONAPPLICABILITY TO INSURANCE INSTITUTIONS FOR INVESTIGATION OF
              INSURANCE FRAUD.—No provision of this section shall be construed so as to prevent
              any insurance institution, or any officer, employee, or agency of an
              insurance institution, from obtaining information as part of an insurance
              investigation into criminal activity, fraud, material misrepresentation, or
              material nondisclosure that is authorized for such institution under State law,
              regulation, interpretation, or order.


              Sincerely yours,
              Sue
              ________________________
              Sue Sarkis
              Sarkis Detective Agency

              (est. 1976)
              PI 6564
              _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

              1346 Ethel Street
              Glendale, CA 91207-1826
              818-242-2505

              "one Nation under God" and "in GOD we TRUST"

              If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English,
              thank a military veteran


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob Hrodey
              ... I see where Sue is coming from and I see where you and Bill are coming from. IMHO, this is a gray area which may or may not be colored in by some
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                RickyG, wrote the following at or about 2/8/2011 3:13 PM:
                > Sue,
                >
                > I am just looking for opinions.. Not really trying to start a debate (and we all know that most of the time I AM trying to start a debate when I post here). Of course though, a debate on this topic may actually be beneficial to some people. But I'd like to inject some information as we go along here, anyway...
                >
                > First, Most people "quote" GLB and have never read it... To me, the proof of that is when someone says or posts something like this: "Well GLB states that you can not use a pretext for a customer's financial information". And I know, because I HAVE read GLB that the word "pretext" is nowhere in GLB. But, the word "False Pretenses" IS.
                >
                > Second, GLB DOES clearly outline the definition of "False Pretenses":
                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Subtitle B, Section 521(a)(2), which states:
                >
                > SEC. 521. PRIVACY PROTECTION FOR CUSTOMER INFORMATION OF FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.
                >
                > (a) PROHIBITION ON OBTAINING CUSTOMER INFORMATION BY FALSE PRETENSES.---It shall be a violation of this subtitle for any person to obtain or attempt to obtain, or cause to be disclosed or attempt to cause to be disclosed to any person, customer information of a financial institution relating to another person---
                >
                > (1) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation to an officer, employee, or agent of a financial institution;
                >
                > (2) by making a false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation to a customer of a financial institution; or

                I see where Sue is coming from and I see where you and Bill are coming
                from. IMHO, this is a "gray area" which may or may not be colored in by
                some overzealous prosecutor who is receiving his/her marching orders
                from "on high." What do I mean? Well, for one thing we have the
                federal agencies constantly trying to expand their control and kingdom
                to keep us "serfs" in line. Remember the FCRA as amended back in the
                '90's? The one that the FTC turned inside out to mean that before we
                could conduct an investigation into employee misconduct, we had to have
                the miscreant's permission and even then we had to give him all the
                evidence, witnesses names and addresses, etc before the employer could
                be disciplined? That said he could demand a re-investigation at the
                cost of the employer if he disagreed? Okay, I don't know anyone that
                got run through the courts on that one, but I know a LOT of people who
                walked clear of anything like that until such time as Congress passed
                remedial legislation that THEY (the Congress said was unnecessary, but
                the FTC said was).

                Fast forward to the present... Like you, Rick, I don't know of any
                prosecutions so far and I'm assuming that Bill doesn't either. He ain't
                stoopid... if there was somebody out there roping in the Trojans (other
                than the ones in the little foil packets, oops, them's Troj-Enz) he
                probably wouldn't be here confessing.

                Think about it a minute. Let's say you do a REALLY good job using one
                of those Trojan checks and nail your debtor to the cross. He may well
                take offense at his own stupidity and your ingenuity. What happens if
                he runs to a Congresscreep that needs a cause today since extended cap
                magazines and black plastic assault weapons are so boring?

                I suspect, no, I KNOW, there's gotta be some retard US Attorney that
                would push the limits and say that a "A small check will be mailed to
                the target as a "rebate" or "prize" stamped on the back "for deposit
                only". [coming from a non-existent business for a non-existent rebate or
                contest]" is enough for the camel to slip his nose under the tent and
                reach over and bite somebody's ass.

                As we all know and are so fond of saying.... Anyone can file a suit and
                the cost of defending, even if you win, can kill you.

                My two cents.

                --

                Enjoy,

                /Bob/
                ________________________________________________________________
                Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA,
                NAPPS
                Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, & P.A.W.L.I.
                Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice
                337-4638 Fax
                email: inquiry@... <mailto:inquiry@...> or
                rth@... <mailto:rth@...>
                Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • suesarkis@aol.com
                Rick - And he testified about that same thing in the 90 s. He was one of the ones I referred to when I said words to the effect, ...people in our own
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                  Rick -

                  And he testified about that same thing in the 90's. He was one of the
                  ones I referred to when I said words to the effect, "...people in our own
                  industry...". He and EPIC and a few others have been the largest thorns in our
                  sides for decades. For those of us who lived the nightmare, it was
                  painful.

                  Here's a portion of an article written July 1, 1999 by Washington Post
                  staff writers -


                  The House Rules Committee, which sets parameters for debate on House
                  legislation, last night dropped the Commerce Committee provision when it melded
                  competing bills that emerged from the Commerce and Banking Committees. The
                  committee did decide that lawmakers could debate an amendment that would
                  give consumers only the ability to limit the sharing of financial information
                  to outside, unaffiliated companies for marketing. That provision also would
                  require companies for the first time to create and distribute privacy
                  policies. Democrats withdrew their sponsorship of the privacy amendment and
                  vowed to vote against Republican procedural proposals today, however, because
                  of an unrelated dispute over language dealing with redlining.

                  The legislation going to the floor will also ban a practice known as
                  "pretext calling" in which information brokers and private investigators use
                  deception and trickery to obtain financial information. In an exception
                  sponsored by Rep. Ed Royce (R-Calif.), however, the practice would be allowed when
                  private investigators have a judge's approval and are working on a case
                  involving court-ordered child support.
                  Robert Douglas, a private investigator who has spoken before Congress
                  about the practice and is skeptical about the exception, said that "what it's
                  really about is getting one loophole they will expand over time."
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  The word PRETEXT does not have to exist anywhere within the document. It
                  clearly identifies using any ruse just by the plain, clear and simple
                  language that everyone should be able to understand. A FALSE PRETENSE is a
                  PRETEXT. It is a RUSE.
                  Sincerely,
                  Sue


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • RickyG
                  Bill, My question to you is this: In the case of using a Trojan Check ; could a Federal Prosecutor make a case out of this simply from intent ..? In other
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                    Bill,

                    My question to you is this:

                    In the case of using a "Trojan Check"; could a Federal Prosecutor make a case out of this simply from "intent"..?

                    In other words; "Bill P.I." gets a call from a person that invested a bunch of money in "Greedy Scammer Sue's" investment scheme and got "ripped". You want to find out where "Greedy Scammer Sue" banks so you send her a check for $10.00. She cashes it. You have where she banks at. This comes up in court somewhere. Some Prosecutor charges you. You have to answer these questions:

                    Bill P.I.: Do you personally know Sue?

                    Bill P.I.: Have you ever done any business with Sue?

                    Bill P.I.: Did oyu owe Sue any money?

                    Bill P.I.: What were your intentions when you sent Sue that check?


                    Can that be enough to prosecute a case like this?


                    Ricky Gurley.

                    --
                    Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc. & Thoth Data Systems
                    Agency License Number: 2011001124
                    Private Investigator License Number: 2011001072

                    Mailing Address: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
                    Office Address: 1 E. Broadway Suite Z, Columbia, MO. 65203

                    Direct Office Number: (573) 234-6876
                    Office Phone: (573) 234-4647 Ext. 110
                    Car Phone: (573) 529-0808
                    Cell Phone: (573) 529-4476
                    Toll Free Phone: (888) 571-0958
                    Toll Free Fax: (877) 795-9800
                    EMERGENCY LINE: (573) 234-4871

                    RMRI, Inc. Websites
                    (1) http://www.rmriinc.com
                    (2) http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com

                    RMRI, Inc. Blogs
                    (1) http://rmriinc.blogspot.com/index.html
                    (2) http://rmriincspace.spaces.live.com/


                    --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, oracleintl@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks for your opinion Sue, but it's just an opinion and I disagree.
                    >
                    > I can tell you that a diligent search reveals no GLB related cases having
                    > anything to do with trojan checks.
                    >
                    > Now, if you think you can get the government to make a case, I'll just
                    > confess. Really, tell them that you have identified a habitual offender with
                    > no intention of changing his ways - I'll sign a confession.
                    >
                    > You are entitled to your interpretation of "pretext" but I see no support
                    > for it. If I send you a check, there is nothing pretextual about it and
                    > you cash it, or not, knowing that if you do I will be able to see where it
                    > was cashed as part of the normal course of business.
                    >
                    > Bill E. Branscum, Investigator
                    > Oracle International
                    > Naples, FL 34101
                    > (239) 304-1639 V
                    > (239) 304-1640 F
                    > (239) 641-6782 C
                    > _www.FraudsAndScams.com_ (http://www.FraudsAndScams.com)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 2/8/2011 3:39:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    > suesarkis@... writes:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Rick -
                    >
                    > Of course using a Trojan Check is a violation of federal law. The
                    > Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which many of us vigorously and vehemently fought,
                    > left no
                    > loopholes for us to hide behind.
                    >
                    > 15 USC 6821 clearly states that it is a felony (15 USC 6823) to attempt to
                    > obtain or successfully obtain customer information using any false
                    > pretense. It can't be much clearer than that. Remember, it was members of
                    > our
                    > own industry that educated Congress and the FTC the various ways we
                    > discover
                    > such information. They (Congress), in turn, made sure they covered every
                    > loophole.
                    >
                    > Now, if anyone here believes for one second that a Trojan Check is not a
                    > false pretense, go get your head examined. Better yet, buy my bridge. All
                    > ruses and pretexts are forbidden.
                    >
                    > If my memory serves me correctly, however, there are exemptions for "child
                    > support" back payment recovery but even for those cases, I believe a
                    > specific court order is required.
                    >
                    >
                    > Sincerely yours,
                    > Sue
                    > ________________________
                    > Sue Sarkis
                    > Sarkis Detective Agency
                    >
                    > (est. 1976)
                    > PI 6564
                    > _www.sarkispi.com_ (_http://www.sarkispi.com/_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/) )
                    >
                    > 1346 Ethel Street
                    > Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                    > 818-242-2505
                    >
                    > "one Nation under God" and "in GOD we TRUST"
                    >
                    > If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English,
                    > thank a military veteran
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • suesarkis@aol.com
                    Rick - Robert Douglas has been complaining about our industry since way before 2005. He testified at each and every hearing, I do believe, at least one time
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                      Rick -

                      Robert Douglas has been complaining about our industry since way before
                      2005. He testified at each and every hearing, I do believe, at least one
                      time starting back in 1998 as it came to the GLB. He also testified when it
                      came to phone record privacy and anything else that we, as an industry, do in
                      the normal course and scope of our employment. He was the downfall of all
                      of the 20+ that were subpoenaed before Congress.

                      If anyone is interested in some of his sweet contents, visit -

                      _http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm_
                      (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm)

                      _http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm_
                      (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm)


                      For that matter, his entire website at _www.privacytoday.com_
                      (http://www.privacytoday.com) is enough to make you regurgitate. What ticked me off
                      the most is that the majority of the people he complained about were, in
                      fact, the very same people many of us complained about to our licensing
                      agencies who did actually nothing about them.

                      I remember one of those brought before Congress was giving a teleconference
                      seminar over in Burbank. A relatively new licensee was promoting the
                      conference and trying to get people signed up, presumably for free entrance
                      herself. I told her that she was out of her ever loving mind getting
                      involved with that person since everything she did violated the law. A couple
                      years later when the hearings started, the local PI tried to claim to me that
                      she really didn't get involved with her. UGH !!!!

                      Anyway, what I say here is basically the same as I used to say to my CE
                      bail agent students when the class would first start. I would say, "Hi, for
                      those of you who do not know me, I'm Sue Sarkis. I'm not here to tell you
                      how to run your businesses. What I am here for is to make certain that
                      when you walk out those doors after the classes are over, that you know
                      precisely what the law says. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.".

                      Have a great night all !!

                      Sue



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • suesarkis@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/8/2011 1:43:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rth@hrodey.com writes: As we all know and are so fond of saying.... Anyone can file a suit and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                        In a message dated 2/8/2011 1:43:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        rth@... writes:

                        As we all know and are so fond of saying.... Anyone can file a suit and
                        the cost of defending, even if you win, can kill you.
                        Bob said it well. Aside from that, anyone who knows me knows full well
                        that I have always been the Devil's Advocate. I always go to the extremes
                        because anything is possible.

                        I was working with the defense for the very first federal prosecution for
                        "keylogging". Everyone on these lists involved in those conversations back
                        then were positive he was going to be convicted. I was the only one
                        positive he wouldn't. He wasn't !!

                        I was working with the defense for the very first federal prosecution for
                        "phone records illegally obtained".

                        Although I have not heard of any "Trojan Check" cases out there but bear in
                        mind, that doesn't mean there haven't been a lot of them. I personally
                        would not be touting my arrest to the industry had such an event ever
                        occurred. Since the vast majority of criminal cases never get appealed, without
                        local press coverage, we never know about them.

                        I'm sure glad I'm semi-retired. Retirement is just around the corner !!!!

                        Sincerely,
                        Sue



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Slipinn@aol.com
                        Rick, I believe it boil s down to probable cause considering the body of the crime and the element s. I think it is just a matter of when before someone
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                          Rick,

                          I believe it boil's down to "probable cause" considering the body of the
                          crime and the element's. I think it is just a matter of when before
                          someone is made an example.

                          1. Was a pretense used to gain financial information? Yes
                          2. Was the Intent to cause a disclosure by pretense? Yes


                          I believe that any prosecutor could find "PC" to make the charge. While
                          this may have been overlooked for the past few years I would hate to be the
                          example case.

                          Would a jury convict based on the elements and Body of the crime? Probably
                          so.

                          Pretense, ruse, and intent are the key word's here. The objective?.... to
                          obtain financial information.

                          Just my thought's on the matter.




                          Chuck Chambers


                          Chambers Investigations
                          606 49th st w
                          Bradenton, Florida 34209
                          Phone 941-798-3804
                          Lic# A-0001959





                          In a message dated 2/8/2011 5:02:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          suesarkis@... writes:




                          Rick -

                          Robert Douglas has been complaining about our industry since way before
                          2005. He testified at each and every hearing, I do believe, at least one
                          time starting back in 1998 as it came to the GLB. He also testified when
                          it
                          came to phone record privacy and anything else that we, as an industry, do
                          in
                          the normal course and scope of our employment. He was the downfall of all
                          of the 20+ that were subpoenaed before Congress.

                          If anyone is interested in some of his sweet contents, visit -

                          __http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm__
                          (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm_)
                          (_http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm_
                          (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm) )

                          __http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm__
                          (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm_)
                          (_http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm_
                          (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm) )

                          For that matter, his entire website at _www.privacytoday.com_
                          (_http://www.privacytoday.com_ (http://www.privacytoday.com/) ) is enough
                          to make you regurgitate. What ticked me off
                          the most is that the majority of the people he complained about were, in
                          fact, the very same people many of us complained about to our licensing
                          agencies who did actually nothing about them.

                          I remember one of those brought before Congress was giving a
                          teleconference
                          seminar over in Burbank. A relatively new licensee was promoting the
                          conference and trying to get people signed up, presumably for free
                          entrance
                          herself. I told her that she was out of her ever loving mind getting
                          involved with that person since everything she did violated the law. A
                          couple
                          years later when the hearings started, the local PI tried to claim to me
                          that
                          she really didn't get involved with her. UGH !!!!

                          Anyway, what I say here is basically the same as I used to say to my CE
                          bail agent students when the class would first start. I would say, "Hi,
                          for
                          those of you who do not know me, I'm Sue Sarkis. I'm not here to tell you
                          how to run your businesses. What I am here for is to make certain that
                          when you walk out those doors after the classes are over, that you know
                          precisely what the law says. What you do with that knowledge is up to
                          you.".

                          Have a great night all !!

                          Sue


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • RickyG
                          Sue, I know who Robert Douglas is. I got off of the phone with him 60 minutes ago, almost to the minute.... He does a lot of Talk Radio now. To my surprise,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                            Sue,

                            I know who Robert Douglas is. I got off of the phone with him 60 minutes ago, almost to the minute....

                            He does a lot of "Talk Radio" now. To my surprise, he informed me that he used to be a P.I.. He also informed me about testifying on these issues in the 90s.

                            His position on this is that it is just a "Gray Area" like Bob said. But even so, he did not think that a Federal Prosecutor would waste his or her time on something like this considering the events we have going on in our world today.

                            He seemed a little dismayed that there is no clear frame of reference one way or the other in regards to the legalities of using the "Trojan Check"..

                            He DID say that Debt Collectors might run into problems with using "Trojan Checks" under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act because the language there is very broad.

                            He also even said that if he were going to use a "Trojan Check" he would not be too worried about being prosecuted for it.

                            I have to say, he was a pretty nice guy, he seemed very reasonable and cautious not to say anything that might mislead me.

                            But the point here had nothing at all to do with Robert Dourglas or his character, really. The point was that the Federal Government has been aware of the use of "Trojan Checks" since at least 2005 and I and many others can't find one single case involving a prosecution for their use......

                            Take from that what you may.....



                            Ricky Gurley.



                            --
                            Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc. & Thoth Data Systems
                            Agency License Number: 2011001124
                            Private Investigator License Number: 2011001072

                            Mailing Address: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
                            Office Address: 1 E. Broadway Suite Z, Columbia, MO. 65203

                            Direct Office Number: (573) 234-6876
                            Office Phone: (573) 234-4647 Ext. 110
                            Car Phone: (573) 529-0808
                            Cell Phone: (573) 529-4476
                            Toll Free Phone: (888) 571-0958
                            Toll Free Fax: (877) 795-9800
                            EMERGENCY LINE: (573) 234-4871

                            RMRI, Inc. Websites
                            (1) http://www.rmriinc.com
                            (2) http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com

                            RMRI, Inc. Blogs
                            (1) http://rmriinc.blogspot.com/index.html
                            (2) http://rmriincspace.spaces.live.com/






                            --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, suesarkis@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Rick -
                            >
                            > Robert Douglas has been complaining about our industry since way before
                            > 2005. He testified at each and every hearing, I do believe, at least one
                            > time starting back in 1998 as it came to the GLB. He also testified when it
                            > came to phone record privacy and anything else that we, as an industry, do in
                            > the normal course and scope of our employment. He was the downfall of all
                            > of the 20+ that were subpoenaed before Congress.
                            >
                            > If anyone is interested in some of his sweet contents, visit -
                            >
                            > _http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm_
                            > (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony-98.htm)
                            >
                            > _http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm_
                            > (http://www.privacytoday.com/bankingtestimony2000.htm)
                            >
                            >
                            > For that matter, his entire website at _www.privacytoday.com_
                            > (http://www.privacytoday.com) is enough to make you regurgitate. What ticked me off
                            > the most is that the majority of the people he complained about were, in
                            > fact, the very same people many of us complained about to our licensing
                            > agencies who did actually nothing about them.
                            >
                            > I remember one of those brought before Congress was giving a teleconference
                            > seminar over in Burbank. A relatively new licensee was promoting the
                            > conference and trying to get people signed up, presumably for free entrance
                            > herself. I told her that she was out of her ever loving mind getting
                            > involved with that person since everything she did violated the law. A couple
                            > years later when the hearings started, the local PI tried to claim to me that
                            > she really didn't get involved with her. UGH !!!!
                            >
                            > Anyway, what I say here is basically the same as I used to say to my CE
                            > bail agent students when the class would first start. I would say, "Hi, for
                            > those of you who do not know me, I'm Sue Sarkis. I'm not here to tell you
                            > how to run your businesses. What I am here for is to make certain that
                            > when you walk out those doors after the classes are over, that you know
                            > precisely what the law says. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.".
                            >
                            > Have a great night all !!
                            >
                            > Sue
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • TSCM/SO Group
                            Sounds like it falls into the same category of events that takes place when someone attempts to turn over an illegal listening device to a fed LE agency. You
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 8, 2011
                              Sounds like it falls into the same category of events that takes place when
                              someone attempts to turn over an illegal listening device to a fed LE
                              agency.

                              You are greeted, thanked for your information, the device goes into a old
                              sneaker box on a shelf in the back, never to be seen again...

                              If it's a civil matter you get greeted with sorry,were too busy,it's a civil
                              matter you may want etc etc etc

                              And the beat goes on...





                              Mitch Davis

                              TSCM/Special Operations Group Inc.

                              20 Music Square West,Suite 208

                              Nashville, TN. 37203 USA

                              615.251.0441

                              Fax 615.523.0300

                              www.tscmusa.com



                              ***********************************

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                              *****************************************



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                              From: suesarkis@... [mailto:suesarkis@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:12 PM
                              To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: GLOBAT SUSPECTS SPAM! [infoguys-list] Re: The Trojan Check





                              In a message dated 2/8/2011 1:43:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                              rth@... <mailto:rth%40hrodey.com> writes:

                              As we all know and are so fond of saying.... Anyone can file a suit and
                              the cost of defending, even if you win, can kill you.
                              Bob said it well. Aside from that, anyone who knows me knows full well
                              that I have always been the Devil's Advocate. I always go to the extremes
                              because anything is possible.

                              I was working with the defense for the very first federal prosecution for
                              "keylogging". Everyone on these lists involved in those conversations back
                              then were positive he was going to be convicted. I was the only one
                              positive he wouldn't. He wasn't !!

                              I was working with the defense for the very first federal prosecution for
                              "phone records illegally obtained".

                              Although I have not heard of any "Trojan Check" cases out there but bear in
                              mind, that doesn't mean there haven't been a lot of them. I personally
                              would not be touting my arrest to the industry had such an event ever
                              occurred. Since the vast majority of criminal cases never get appealed,
                              without
                              local press coverage, we never know about them.

                              I'm sure glad I'm semi-retired. Retirement is just around the corner !!!!

                              Sincerely,
                              Sue

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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