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Re: A "Senior Moment"

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  • David O'Niell
    I think it s fairly common that when someone begins to suffer from dementia they do things like this-- ... - ... --
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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      I think it's fairly common that when someone begins to suffer from dementia they do
      things like this--


      --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Gurley" <rmriinc@...> wrote:
      >
      > Here is a post that came up on a board that I participate on, and I
      > thought it was pretty interesting:
      >
      >
      >
      > When senior citizens break the law with minor infractions, should they
      > be held accountable and punished like the rest of us or should they be
      > treated differently?
      >
      > I'm posting this because I came across a story where a 79 year old man
      > was accused of stealing and thrown in jail. The reader comments caught
      > my attention because the story sparked a controversy about how senior
      > citizens should be treated in similar situations.
      >
      > Some people demanded that the elderly man should have been released
      > and not harassed. Others claim that he was using his age as an excuse
      > to shoplift.
      >
      > What do you all think? Honest mistake or perfect alibi?
      >
      >
      > QUOTE
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
      -
      > LAKE WORTH - An elderly Palm Beach County man says he forgot to pay
      > for the pie that sent him to jail for 10 hours.
      >
      > Authorities say 79-year-old George Schwartz didn't pay for a $5.29
      > apple pie at a Publix near Lake Worth in April. He was taken to jail
      > and charged with retail theft, a misdemeanor punishable by 60 days in
      > jail.
      >
      > His lawyer said Thursday that the cashier who bagged the groceries
      > that day also didn't notice the pie left in the basket. Schwartz paid
      > for the rest of his groceries.
      >
      > His attorney adds that they are trying to get the case dropped.
      > Otherwise, they could go to trial in June.
      >
      > Managers at that Publix say in a police report that he has shoplifted
      > before. But Schwartz says he has short-term memory problems and calls
      > the latest incident a misunderstanding.
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
      --
      >
      > Full Story:
      > http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-530pie,0,2371195.story
      >
      > Story COMMENTS here:
      > http://www.topix.net/forum/source/south-fl...EASAK4QEEUVLLJU
      >
      >
      >
      > Any thoughts?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Rick.
      >
    • Tom Eskridge
      It is also possible that the victim demanded and made a citizens arrest. Then with priors, the cop had a felon and had no real choice. With all the facts not
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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        It is also possible that the victim demanded and made a citizens arrest.
        Then with priors, the cop had a felon and had no real choice. With all the
        facts not in evidence, there is a lot of assuming going on!



        For those not educated in the area, at least in California, it is a criminal
        offense for a cop to refuse a citizens arrest, assuming there is any degree
        of reasonableness to the arrest.



        This is without even opening the argument that cops should be able to decide
        which criminal offenses are worth their effort. This is fine..until YOU'RE
        the victim..



        Tom Eskridge

        Chief Operations Officer

        High Tech Crime Institute

        13400 Wright Cir

        Tampa FL 33626

        866-279-6295/813-854-2223

        Retired Redondo Beach CA PD Lieutenant

        Service Disabled Veteran Owned Business



        _____

        From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of suesarkis@...
        Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 3:22 PM
        To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"




        In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:58:13 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        rmriinc@grouply. <mailto:rmriinc%40grouply.com> com writes:

        Do we really want an Officer off of the street and processing
        the "Cherry Pie Bandit" at the local county jail; when he could be
        patrolling for more serious infractions? Do we really want our
        Prosecutor spending thousands of tax payer dollars on prosecuting the
        "Cherry Pie Bandit"?

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        Rick - The answer to that question is an unequivocal YES !!!! The shelves
        and freezers would be wiped bare from every store in this nation if every
        Tom, Dick and Harry knew they wouldn't be prosecuted due to the cost
        involved.
        With that in mind, you and I would then have to pay $50/pie to make up for
        the losses.

        Of course a true criminal should be prosecuted regardless of how petty.
        However, the key words are TRUE CRIMINAL.



        Sincerely yours,
        Sue
        ________________________
        Sue Sarkis
        Sarkis Detective Agency

        (est. 1976)
        PI 6564
        _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi <http://www.sarkispi.com/> .com/)

        1346 Ethel Street
        Glendale, CA 91207-1826
        818-242-2505
        818-246-3001 FAX

        "one Nation under God"

        If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
        a military veteran

        **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
        Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
        (http://food.
        <http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002>
        aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • suesarkis@aol.com
        Rick - For starters, what caused the arrest? Was it the store owner or manager? If so, the police had no choice. However, even they (store owner/manager)
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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          Rick -

          For starters, what caused the arrest? Was it the store owner or manager?
          If so, the police had no choice. However, even they (store owner/manager)
          should be using common sense.

          The opinion from the board it posted from is ridiculous, to say the least,
          and not only not in touch with the case at hand but not in touch with the
          times.

          For starters, I doubt that this 79 year old man had parents to be taken to
          by the LEO's. That is how juveniles are usually handled, even today.
          However, since corporal punishment by parents is a felony in many states, even that
          doesn't work like it used to. Spare the rod; spoil the child !!!

          As I said before, in THIS case the prosecution seems a little ridiculous
          even with a prior because they will have a very hard time trying to prove intent
          which I believe we agree on.

          However, the opinion presented about the prosecutions having gotten out of
          hand is true. However, the fault does not lie with the LEO's or the
          prosecutors but rather with the leftist, give me something for nothing general public
          who would sue the shit out of the LEOs/prosecutors for failing to enforce the
          law should he then have thrown the pie in someone's face or some other absurd
          modern day tortious act.

          It is absolutely insane that a law has to be put on the books in all 50
          states protecting homeowners from civil litigation from a residential burglar
          getting injured while fleeing the home because he's being chased by a watch dog.
          However, juries have awarded large judgments for such thieves and that is
          all because of the leftist mentality. No two ways about it. Call it
          political if you care to; I call it asinine.

          By the way, perhaps Missouri might increase their criminal penalties to come
          into touch with the times. Prosecuting for what might appear to be trivial
          violations of the law are done for recidivism and deterrence purposes.
          Lawbreakers are lawbreakers. However, I don't think the cherry pie man is.


          Sincerely yours,
          Sue
          ________________________
          Sue Sarkis
          Sarkis Detective Agency

          (est. 1976)
          PI 6564
          _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

          1346 Ethel Street
          Glendale, CA 91207-1826
          818-242-2505
          818-246-3001 FAX

          "one Nation under God"

          If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
          a military veteran



          **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
          Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
          (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ricky Gurley
          ... Prosecuting for what might appear to be trivial ... purposes. ... man is. Now see, here is where you are the liberal and I am the conservative ... I
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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            --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, suesarkis@... wrote:
            >
            > Rick -
            Prosecuting for what might appear to be trivial
            > violations of the law are done for recidivism and deterrence
            purposes.
            > Lawbreakers are lawbreakers. However, I don't think the cherry pie
            man is.


            Now see, here is where you are the "liberal" and I am the
            "conservative"... I see nothing wrong with a "good old fashioned
            Singaporian caning" for the TRUE thief that has no regard for someone
            else's property.. Wanna decrease recidivism and deter such behavior?
            Take the offender to the court house, draw a crowd and take some skin
            off of his ass! Had this happened to me, I am sure that I would not
            have gotten in as much trouble as I did when I was a younger man.. Now
            I am not saying this is applicable in the situation we are discussing
            here, but for the purpose of deterring crime, it IS applicable.

            And, while I am at it.. The castle doctrine is a VERY fine thing.. It
            should be even more liberal than what it is.. This would make the "bad
            guys" think a little more about invading someone's home..

            I have no problem with a strict enforcement code, as long as it is
            being enforced against the guilty, and not the "maybe guilty".

            And Thomas Eskridge. just as sure as it would be fine until I am the
            victim remember this; there is absolutely NOTHING bad at all about a
            Police State, if you are the Police......


            Rick.


            RMRI, Inc.
            http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com
          • Tom Eskridge
            I have no problem with a strict enforcement code, as long as it is being enforced against the guilty, and not the maybe guilty . Rick, I see you drank the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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              I have no problem with a strict enforcement code, as long as it is
              being enforced against the guilty, and not the "maybe guilty".



              Rick, I see you drank the Kool Aid..As OJ Simpson is "not guilty" of the
              crime of double homicide, he obviously should have never been arrested. So
              if "only the guilty" are arrested, there is really no good reason to have a
              prosecution. Street justice.I love the idea...



              Tom Eskridge

              Chief Operations Officer

              High Tech Crime Institute

              13400 Wright Cir

              Tampa FL 33626

              866-279-6295/813-854-2223

              Retired Redondo Beach CA PD Lieutenant

              Service Disabled Veteran Owned Business



              _____

              From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
              Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 7:14 PM
              To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"



              --- In infoguys-list@ <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com, suesarkis@... wrote:
              >
              > Rick -
              Prosecuting for what might appear to be trivial
              > violations of the law are done for recidivism and deterrence
              purposes.
              > Lawbreakers are lawbreakers. However, I don't think the cherry pie
              man is.

              Now see, here is where you are the "liberal" and I am the
              "conservative"... I see nothing wrong with a "good old fashioned
              Singaporian caning" for the TRUE thief that has no regard for someone
              else's property.. Wanna decrease recidivism and deter such behavior?
              Take the offender to the court house, draw a crowd and take some skin
              off of his ass! Had this happened to me, I am sure that I would not
              have gotten in as much trouble as I did when I was a younger man.. Now
              I am not saying this is applicable in the situation we are discussing
              here, but for the purpose of deterring crime, it IS applicable.

              And, while I am at it.. The castle doctrine is a VERY fine thing.. It
              should be even more liberal than what it is.. This would make the "bad
              guys" think a little more about invading someone's home..

              I have no problem with a strict enforcement code, as long as it is
              being enforced against the guilty, and not the "maybe guilty".

              And Thomas Eskridge. just as sure as it would be fine until I am the
              victim remember this; there is absolutely NOTHING bad at all about a
              Police State, if you are the Police......

              Rick.

              RMRI, Inc.
              http://rmriinc. <http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com>
              bestcyberinvestigator.com





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ricky Gurley
              ... arrested. So ... have a ... From the looks of your post you should get some Kool Aid Tom; so you ll have a way to swallow your meds... An arrest and/or the
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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                --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:

                > Rick, I see you drank the Kool Aid..As OJ Simpson is "not guilty" of the
                > crime of double homicide, he obviously should have never been
                arrested. So
                > if "only the guilty" are arrested, there is really no good reason to
                have a
                > prosecution. Street justice.I love the idea...


                From the looks of your post you should get some Kool Aid Tom; so
                you'll have a way to swallow your meds...

                An arrest and/or the incarceration of a person is not a punishment,
                that is why a person is free to make bail in most cases before the
                trial.... Because they are innocent until proven guilty... My point
                here is that I have no problem with a strict enforcement of the law,
                as long as the person it is being applied to has been granted due
                process, has been to court, and is proven guilty and convicted...

                And OJ Simpson is NOT guilty of the crime of double homicide according
                to the Judicial Standards that YOU swore to uphold when you were a
                Police Officer; Tom! He was never PROVEN guilty of the crime in a
                court of law... Let me ask you something Tom, why is it when there is
                a possibility that an innocent man went to prison for a murder he did
                not commit, the common saying is that "The Jury did their job and this
                was their verdict, and that is good enough for me", but when someone
                you perceive as guilty is acquitted you are not so willing to use the
                same line of thought?


                Rick.


                RMRI, Inc.
                http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com
              • Salvatore F. Alioto
                In New York, in a shoplifting situation if the store manager insists on it the police officer is obligated to make an arrest, however, once arrested there are
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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                  In New York, in a shoplifting situation if the store manager insists on
                  it the police officer is obligated to make an arrest, however, once
                  arrested there are processing option which would have had the elderly
                  gentleman released in a little over an hour. He would be fingerprinted,
                  photographed and issued a summons to appear in court on a specified date
                  to answer the charges before a judge. I don't know why it took 10 hours
                  to process this man. Things must be very different in Florida law
                  enforcement.

                  Sal

                  ************ Discreetly Addressing Your Private Needs ************



                  Salvatore F. Alioto

                  Owner/Operator Able Shamus Investigations

                  Retired Sergeant NY City Police Department



                  Licensed by the NY State Department of State

                  Private Investigation License # 11000101082

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                  Website - http://sfapi.tripod.com/ <http://sfapi.tripod.com/>


                  --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Gurley" <rmriinc@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Here is a post that came up on a board that I participate on, and I
                  > thought it was pretty interesting:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > When senior citizens break the law with minor infractions, should they
                  > be held accountable and punished like the rest of us or should they be
                  > treated differently?
                  >
                  > I'm posting this because I came across a story where a 79 year old man
                  > was accused of stealing and thrown in jail. The reader comments caught
                  > my attention because the story sparked a controversy about how senior
                  > citizens should be treated in similar situations.
                  >
                  > Some people demanded that the elderly man should have been released
                  > and not harassed. Others claim that he was using his age as an excuse
                  > to shoplift.
                  >
                  > What do you all think? Honest mistake or perfect alibi?
                  >
                  >
                  > QUOTE
                  > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > LAKE WORTH - An elderly Palm Beach County man says he forgot to pay
                  > for the pie that sent him to jail for 10 hours.
                  >
                  > Authorities say 79-year-old George Schwartz didn't pay for a $5.29
                  > apple pie at a Publix near Lake Worth in April. He was taken to jail
                  > and charged with retail theft, a misdemeanor punishable by 60 days in
                  > jail.
                  >
                  > His lawyer said Thursday that the cashier who bagged the groceries
                  > that day also didn't notice the pie left in the basket. Schwartz paid
                  > for the rest of his groceries.
                  >
                  > His attorney adds that they are trying to get the case dropped.
                  > Otherwise, they could go to trial in June.
                  >
                  > Managers at that Publix say in a police report that he has shoplifted
                  > before. But Schwartz says he has short-term memory problems and calls
                  > the latest incident a misunderstanding.
                  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Full Story:
                  > http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-530pie,0,2371195.story
                  >
                  > Story COMMENTS here:
                  > http://www.topix.net/forum/source/south-fl...EASAK4QEEUVLLJU
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Any thoughts?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Rick.
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • suesarkis@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:26:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sfapi59@yahoo.com writes: I don t know why it took 10 hours to process this man. Things must
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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                    In a message dated 6/8/2008 7:26:25 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    sfapi59@... writes:

                    I don't know why it took 10 hours
                    to process this man. Things must be very different in Florida law
                    enforcement.



                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    Sal -

                    I agree with your sentiment. However, depending upon where someone is
                    booked here in Los Angeles County, it could take anywhere from an hour to 48
                    hours. Los Angeles County jail is the largest jail in the world and trust me when
                    I say, those civil service employees do as little as they can for as long as
                    they can.

                    With the inmate population being static through the years, I used to be able
                    to get an inmate released within 2 hours on bond at CJ. Now with all their
                    fancy, expensive computers and such it is a minimum of 10 hours and that is
                    only if you are very, very lucky.




                    Sincerely yours,
                    Sue
                    ________________________
                    Sue Sarkis
                    Sarkis Detective Agency

                    (est. 1976)
                    PI 6564
                    _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

                    1346 Ethel Street
                    Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                    818-242-2505
                    818-246-3001 FAX

                    "one Nation under God"

                    If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
                    a military veteran



                    **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                    Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                    (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • suesarkis@aol.com
                    In a message dated 6/8/2008 4:14:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rmriinc@grouply.com writes: Now see, here is where you are the liberal and I am the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 8, 2008
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                      In a message dated 6/8/2008 4:14:45 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      rmriinc@... writes:

                      Now see, here is where you are the "liberal" and I am the
                      "conservative""conservative"<WBR>... I see nothing wrong with a "goo
                      Singaporian caning" for the TRUE thief that has no regard for someone
                      else's property.. Wanna decrease recidivism and deter such behavior?
                      Take the offender to the court house, draw a crowd and take some skin
                      off of his ass!


                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      Rick -

                      Here you go again. How can you possibly construe from anything you have
                      EVER heard me say that could remotely make you think that I am a LIBERAL or
                      that I would be against caning. When Bill Clinton asked for leniency for
                      MISSOURI born and raised Michael Fay[e], I personally sent a Telex to Ong Teng
                      Cheong (????) begging that he ignore the leniency request from Mr. Liberal
                      himself. I've been to Singapore a couple of times and you can eat off their
                      sidewalks they are so clean.

                      Shoot, you get caned in Singapore for chewing gum which is outlawed. If you
                      ever travel there, don't even think of having any in your pocket.

                      The next time you refer to me with that ugly "L" word you'll get a lot more
                      than a caning.

                      Sincerely,
                      Sue



                      **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                      Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                      (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tom Eskridge
                      Rick What in my post makes you think I have a problem with OJ? Its not like he s out killing 7-11 clerks. I was simply pointing out a high profile case, where
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
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                        Rick



                        What in my post makes you think I have a problem with OJ? Its' not like he's
                        out killing 7-11 clerks.



                        I was simply pointing out a high profile case, where a man sat in county
                        jail for 2 years, was found not guilty and was released from jail. Under
                        your prior post this proved that he should not have even been arrested as he
                        was "probably guilty" and not in fact guilty. Or in this case he was deemed
                        not guilty.



                        I was just pointing out how foolish your post was. How is the first
                        responder cop to know if his/her witnesses have a grudge? Witnesses lie,
                        exaggerate and make honest mistakes. How many people have you interviewed
                        who claimed they saw an accident, and you determined that what they saw was
                        the aftermath of the accident when they turned at the sound of the collision
                        and saw cars spinning about. But in their minds they saw the "accident".



                        And again in this post, you demand that the person has to be found "guilty"
                        in order to justify "strict enforcement of the law".How the heck do you do
                        this. And as no one can guarantee a conviction at the point of arrest, then
                        I guess no one should ever be arrested.







                        Tom Eskridge

                        Chief Operations Officer

                        High Tech Crime Institute

                        13400 Wright Cir

                        Tampa FL 33626

                        866-279-6295/813-854-2223

                        Retired Redondo Beach CA PD Lieutenant

                        Service Disabled Veteran Owned Business



                        _____

                        From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
                        Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 9:53 PM
                        To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"



                        --- In infoguys-list@ <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:

                        > Rick, I see you drank the Kool Aid..As OJ Simpson is "not guilty" of the
                        > crime of double homicide, he obviously should have never been
                        arrested. So
                        > if "only the guilty" are arrested, there is really no good reason to
                        have a
                        > prosecution. Street justice.I love the idea...

                        From the looks of your post you should get some Kool Aid Tom; so
                        you'll have a way to swallow your meds...

                        An arrest and/or the incarceration of a person is not a punishment,
                        that is why a person is free to make bail in most cases before the
                        trial.... Because they are innocent until proven guilty... My point
                        here is that I have no problem with a strict enforcement of the law,
                        as long as the person it is being applied to has been granted due
                        process, has been to court, and is proven guilty and convicted...

                        And OJ Simpson is NOT guilty of the crime of double homicide according
                        to the Judicial Standards that YOU swore to uphold when you were a
                        Police Officer; Tom! He was never PROVEN guilty of the crime in a
                        court of law... Let me ask you something Tom, why is it when there is
                        a possibility that an innocent man went to prison for a murder he did
                        not commit, the common saying is that "The Jury did their job and this
                        was their verdict, and that is good enough for me", but when someone
                        you perceive as guilty is acquitted you are not so willing to use the
                        same line of thought?

                        Rick.

                        RMRI, Inc.
                        http://rmriinc. <http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com>
                        bestcyberinvestigator.com





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Glad4JC@aol.com
                        OK Sue & Rick, get back into your corners and get some pep talk from the trainer....remember to use the cut guy, and for goodness sake don t forget the
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
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                          OK Sue & Rick, get back into your corners and get some pep talk from the
                          trainer....remember to use the cut guy, and for goodness sake don't forget the
                          vaseline....

                          Gladys Brierley
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                          **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                          Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                          (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ricky Gurley
                          ... from the ... forget the ... Gladys, you are too late.. I think Sue and I have dispensed with the debate and found common ground... We both seem to agree on
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
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                            --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, Glad4JC@... wrote:
                            >
                            > OK Sue & Rick, get back into your corners and get some pep talk
                            from the
                            > trainer....remember to use the cut guy, and for goodness sake don't
                            forget the
                            > vaseline....


                            Gladys, you are too late.. I think Sue and I have dispensed with the
                            debate and found common ground... We both seem to agree on harsher
                            punishment for offenders..

                            Rick.


                            RMRI, Inc.
                            http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com
                          • Ricky Gurley
                            ... guilty ... you do ... arrest, then ... You re playing games ... The fact is, that arrest and and detainment until a person can go to trial and defend
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:


                              > And again in this post, you demand that the person has to be found
                              "guilty"
                              > in order to justify "strict enforcement of the law".How the heck do
                              you do
                              > this. And as no one can guarantee a conviction at the point of
                              arrest, then
                              > I guess no one should ever be arrested.

                              You're "playing games"... The fact is, that arrest and and detainment
                              until a person can go to trial and defend their self against charges
                              is not a punishment... At least that is the Judicial System's view...
                              The fact is that in most cases (barring capitol cases), a person has
                              an opportunity to make bail and get out of jail, if they are
                              incarcerated before they go to trial. So, yes I agree with a strict
                              code of enforcement after a trial has been had and the person is found
                              to be guilty in a court of law. What is so hard to understand about
                              that, Tom?

                              Do you not understand the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? Is
                              this a new concept for you? Law Enforcement has to do it's job. They
                              have to patrol for and investigate crime. In doing so, if they find
                              there is evidence that a crime has been committed they are obligated
                              to take action. I see nothing wrong with giving Law Enforcement some
                              discretion on minor crimes, like criminal infractions. However, there
                              is CERTAINLY a need to give arrest power to Law Enforcement, and
                              certainly a need to insure the appearance of the defendant once he has
                              been arrested and charged. Again, this is not punishment. Is it
                              inconvenient for the person that is not guilty (after he goes to court
                              and proves it, Tom)? YES! Is being arrested and jailed pleasant? NO!
                              But these are part of a necessary process in order to hold criminals
                              accountable for the crimes they commit. Still, after all of that, it
                              is NOT punishment, at that point in time before trial no Judgment has
                              been passed, and the defendant, in most cases is given an opportunity
                              to free himself and return to his everyday life until he can go to trial.

                              Ideally, the THIEF would be arrested for theft, booked, and then
                              incarcerated until he could make bail. This is not a punishment
                              (AGAIN, Tom). And then he would go to trial, and if he is found not
                              guilty, then he would go home, and if he is found guilty, then he
                              would be taken to the courthouse steps with a crowd in tow, tied to a
                              post, have his pants pulled down, have his ass bared to the crowd, and
                              have someone take some skin off of his ass, given the proper medical
                              treatment if it is needed, and allowed to recuperate in the county
                              jail, and then sent home (Ohh, and by the way Tom, NOW that's
                              punishment). In the case of heinous crimes (murder, rape, child
                              molestation), keep the pants up and use bullets LIBERALLY! That is
                              what I personally believe would be an effective deterrent to some of
                              the STUPID crimes we are seeing these days.

                              And Sue, my sincerest apologies.. I had heard that the word "Liberal"
                              was a bad word and many people have great disdain towards being
                              referred to as that, but I never knew it was that bad.. I promise to
                              never call you the "L" word again. ;o)

                              I think you are either trying to play semantic games, or you have lost
                              your perspective on the sequence of events that occur from arrest to
                              conviction or exoneration (whichever is the case) in a criminal case; Tom.



                              Rick.

                              RMRI, Inc.
                              http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com
                            • Gary Krisulevicz
                              All I can say is thank god for the ability for multiple message deletes on this thing. Wow..... -Gary www.bartletagency.com ... From: Ricky Gurley
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                All I can say is thank god for the ability for multiple message deletes on this thing. Wow.....
                                -Gary
                                www.bartletagency.com



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Ricky Gurley <rmriinc@...>
                                To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, June 9, 2008 7:38:32 AM
                                Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"


                                --- In infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:

                                > And again in this post, you demand that the person has to be found
                                "guilty"
                                > in order to justify "strict enforcement of the law".How the heck do
                                you do
                                > this. And as no one can guarantee a conviction at the point of
                                arrest, then
                                > I guess no one should ever be arrested.

                                You're "playing games"... The fact is, that arrest and and detainment
                                until a person can go to trial and defend their self against charges
                                is not a punishment.. . At least that is the Judicial System's view...
                                The fact is that in most cases (barring capitol cases), a person has
                                an opportunity to make bail and get out of jail, if they are
                                incarcerated before they go to trial. So, yes I agree with a strict
                                code of enforcement after a trial has been had and the person is found
                                to be guilty in a court of law. What is so hard to understand about
                                that, Tom?

                                Do you not understand the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? Is
                                this a new concept for you? Law Enforcement has to do it's job. They
                                have to patrol for and investigate crime. In doing so, if they find
                                there is evidence that a crime has been committed they are obligated
                                to take action. I see nothing wrong with giving Law Enforcement some
                                discretion on minor crimes, like criminal infractions. However, there
                                is CERTAINLY a need to give arrest power to Law Enforcement, and
                                certainly a need to insure the appearance of the defendant once he has
                                been arrested and charged. Again, this is not punishment. Is it
                                inconvenient for the person that is not guilty (after he goes to court
                                and proves it, Tom)? YES! Is being arrested and jailed pleasant? NO!
                                But these are part of a necessary process in order to hold criminals
                                accountable for the crimes they commit. Still, after all of that, it
                                is NOT punishment, at that point in time before trial no Judgment has
                                been passed, and the defendant, in most cases is given an opportunity
                                to free himself and return to his everyday life until he can go to trial.

                                Ideally, the THIEF would be arrested for theft, booked, and then
                                incarcerated until he could make bail. This is not a punishment
                                (AGAIN, Tom). And then he would go to trial, and if he is found not
                                guilty, then he would go home, and if he is found guilty, then he
                                would be taken to the courthouse steps with a crowd in tow, tied to a
                                post, have his pants pulled down, have his ass bared to the crowd, and
                                have someone take some skin off of his ass, given the proper medical
                                treatment if it is needed, and allowed to recuperate in the county
                                jail, and then sent home (Ohh, and by the way Tom, NOW that's
                                punishment). In the case of heinous crimes (murder, rape, child
                                molestation) , keep the pants up and use bullets LIBERALLY! That is
                                what I personally believe would be an effective deterrent to some of
                                the STUPID crimes we are seeing these days.

                                And Sue, my sincerest apologies.. I had heard that the word "Liberal"
                                was a bad word and many people have great disdain towards being
                                referred to as that, but I never knew it was that bad.. I promise to
                                never call you the "L" word again. ;o)

                                I think you are either trying to play semantic games, or you have lost
                                your perspective on the sequence of events that occur from arrest to
                                conviction or exoneration (whichever is the case) in a criminal case.

                                Rick.

                                RMRI, Inc.
                                http://rmriinc. bestcyberinvesti gator.com






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Tom Eskridge
                                Dearest Rick Perhaps I am playing with semantics..or perhaps your confused between the strict enforcement of the law and punishment. You seem to be melding
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dearest Rick



                                  Perhaps I am playing with semantics..or perhaps your confused between the
                                  "strict enforcement of the law" and punishment. You seem to be melding them
                                  together. The cops are charged with the "enforcement of the law". Whether
                                  that enforcement is "strict", "liberal", "petty", or whatever else is in the
                                  eye of the beholder.



                                  The prosecutor is charged with prosecuting those cases in a manner that is
                                  acceptable to the community and the court is charged with applying laws and
                                  then punishment where appropriate. ( I took this directly from the opening
                                  of Law and Order)



                                  For some reason (and I'm not saying it's a bad reason) you seem to think
                                  that the "strict enforcement of the law" only applies post a proper
                                  conviction.



                                  I do not need an ethics lesson from you. In fact I agree with most if not
                                  all of your statements. As you sometimes do, you have spun off from your
                                  initial post, where I pointed out the weaknesses in your belief that only
                                  the truly guilty should face "strict enforcement of the law". As the cops
                                  enforce the law, again I ask, how is this accomplished?





                                  Tom Eskridge

                                  Chief Operations Officer

                                  High Tech Crime Institute

                                  13400 Wright Cir

                                  Tampa FL 33626

                                  866-279-6295/813-854-2223

                                  Retired Redondo Beach CA PD Lieutenant

                                  Service Disabled Veteran Owned Business



                                  _____

                                  From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
                                  Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:39 AM
                                  To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"



                                  --- In infoguys-list@ <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  yahoogroups.com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:

                                  > And again in this post, you demand that the person has to be found
                                  "guilty"
                                  > in order to justify "strict enforcement of the law".How the heck do
                                  you do
                                  > this. And as no one can guarantee a conviction at the point of
                                  arrest, then
                                  > I guess no one should ever be arrested.

                                  You're "playing games"... The fact is, that arrest and and detainment
                                  until a person can go to trial and defend their self against charges
                                  is not a punishment... At least that is the Judicial System's view...
                                  The fact is that in most cases (barring capitol cases), a person has
                                  an opportunity to make bail and get out of jail, if they are
                                  incarcerated before they go to trial. So, yes I agree with a strict
                                  code of enforcement after a trial has been had and the person is found
                                  to be guilty in a court of law. What is so hard to understand about
                                  that, Tom?

                                  Do you not understand the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? Is
                                  this a new concept for you? Law Enforcement has to do it's job. They
                                  have to patrol for and investigate crime. In doing so, if they find
                                  there is evidence that a crime has been committed they are obligated
                                  to take action. I see nothing wrong with giving Law Enforcement some
                                  discretion on minor crimes, like criminal infractions. However, there
                                  is CERTAINLY a need to give arrest power to Law Enforcement, and
                                  certainly a need to insure the appearance of the defendant once he has
                                  been arrested and charged. Again, this is not punishment. Is it
                                  inconvenient for the person that is not guilty (after he goes to court
                                  and proves it, Tom)? YES! Is being arrested and jailed pleasant? NO!
                                  But these are part of a necessary process in order to hold criminals
                                  accountable for the crimes they commit. Still, after all of that, it
                                  is NOT punishment, at that point in time before trial no Judgment has
                                  been passed, and the defendant, in most cases is given an opportunity
                                  to free himself and return to his everyday life until he can go to trial.

                                  Ideally, the THIEF would be arrested for theft, booked, and then
                                  incarcerated until he could make bail. This is not a punishment
                                  (AGAIN, Tom). And then he would go to trial, and if he is found not
                                  guilty, then he would go home, and if he is found guilty, then he
                                  would be taken to the courthouse steps with a crowd in tow, tied to a
                                  post, have his pants pulled down, have his ass bared to the crowd, and
                                  have someone take some skin off of his ass, given the proper medical
                                  treatment if it is needed, and allowed to recuperate in the county
                                  jail, and then sent home (Ohh, and by the way Tom, NOW that's
                                  punishment). In the case of heinous crimes (murder, rape, child
                                  molestation), keep the pants up and use bullets LIBERALLY! That is
                                  what I personally believe would be an effective deterrent to some of
                                  the STUPID crimes we are seeing these days.

                                  And Sue, my sincerest apologies.. I had heard that the word "Liberal"
                                  was a bad word and many people have great disdain towards being
                                  referred to as that, but I never knew it was that bad.. I promise to
                                  never call you the "L" word again. ;o)

                                  I think you are either trying to play semantic games, or you have lost
                                  your perspective on the sequence of events that occur from arrest to
                                  conviction or exoneration (whichever is the case) in a criminal case.

                                  Rick.

                                  RMRI, Inc.
                                  http://rmriinc. <http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com>
                                  bestcyberinvestigator.com





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ricky Gurley
                                  ... if not ... only ... cops ... I realize what you are asking now.. And a good point, I suppose, since one of the accepted definition for enforcing the law
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Eskridge" <TOM@...> wrote:

                                    > I do not need an ethics lesson from you. In fact I agree with most
                                    if not
                                    > all of your statements. As you sometimes do, you have spun off from your
                                    > initial post, where I pointed out the weaknesses in your belief that
                                    only
                                    > the truly guilty should face "strict enforcement of the law". As the
                                    cops
                                    > enforce the law, again I ask, how is this accomplished?
                                    >


                                    I realize what you are asking now.. And a good point, I suppose, since
                                    one of the accepted definition for "enforcing the law" is what is done
                                    by Police Officers prior to a trial.. However, let me ask you a
                                    question. If a state statute prescribes a certain punishment or a
                                    range of punishment for an offended that is found guilty, and a Judge
                                    follows that "prescription for punishment" in sentencing, is the Judge
                                    not also "enforcing the law"?

                                    And Gary, you get kudos.. It appears you are smart enough to delete
                                    posts you don't agree with, rather than complain about them on the
                                    group, and how much they are taking up your precious time. Good for
                                    you, Gary. Keep deleting those posts you don't agree with.


                                    Rick.

                                    RMRI, Inc.
                                    http://rmriinc.bestcyberinvestigator.com
                                  • bella_mafia@yahoo.com
                                    I think in this case it was a legitimate senior moment . Unless you are a senior, and have experienced the  onset of senior moments , I think it
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I think in this case it was a legitimate ''senior moment''. Unless you are a senior, and have experienced the  onset of ''senior moments'', I think it would be difficult to imagine what it would be like, to suddenly reach for a common word within your usual vocabulary, and it not "be there''. Or, to have your thoughts suddenly ''go adrift'' when you are on your way to the checkout counter in a store, and suddenly find yourself outside the store! Once I was on my way to the checkout counter in a store, and saw a clerk on my way, and stopped to inquire about an item they might have in stock. By the time I had finished talking to the clerk, I walked straight out the door of the store, totally forgetting to stop at checkout. I realized my mistake immediately out the front door, and reentered the store and explained to the cashier that I had forgotten to pay for the item, and payed. She just looked real doubtful and sour, but did not reply. I was
                                      mortified. Senior moments occur frequently, when we are in our own homes as well. We forget what task we were doing before being interupted, for example, and go on and begin doing something else. Senior moments are embarrassing, a pain in the neck, and sometimes downright scary! ....The guy who posted that perhaps it was only a ''convenient excuse'', for a 79 year old man, will probably have his day of senior moments just like the rest of us. ''Judge not, lest ye be judged''.
                                       
                                      Linda Smith


                                      Bella Mafia

                                      --- On Sun, 6/8/08, David O'Niell <oniellinvestigations@...> wrote:

                                      From: David O'Niell <oniellinvestigations@...>
                                      Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"
                                      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 3:38 PM






                                      I think it's fairly common that when someone begins to suffer from dementia they do
                                      things like this--

                                      --- In infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Ricky Gurley" <rmriinc@... > wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Here is a post that came up on a board that I participate on, and I
                                      > thought it was pretty interesting:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > When senior citizens break the law with minor infractions, should they
                                      > be held accountable and punished like the rest of us or should they be
                                      > treated differently?
                                      >
                                      > I'm posting this because I came across a story where a 79 year old man
                                      > was accused of stealing and thrown in jail. The reader comments caught
                                      > my attention because the story sparked a controversy about how senior
                                      > citizens should be treated in similar situations.
                                      >
                                      > Some people demanded that the elderly man should have been released
                                      > and not harassed. Others claim that he was using his age as an excuse
                                      > to shoplift.
                                      >
                                      > What do you all think? Honest mistake or perfect alibi?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > QUOTE
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                      -
                                      > LAKE WORTH - An elderly Palm Beach County man says he forgot to pay
                                      > for the pie that sent him to jail for 10 hours.
                                      >
                                      > Authorities say 79-year-old George Schwartz didn't pay for a $5.29
                                      > apple pie at a Publix near Lake Worth in April. He was taken to jail
                                      > and charged with retail theft, a misdemeanor punishable by 60 days in
                                      > jail.
                                      >
                                      > His lawyer said Thursday that the cashier who bagged the groceries
                                      > that day also didn't notice the pie left in the basket. Schwartz paid
                                      > for the rest of his groceries.
                                      >
                                      > His attorney adds that they are trying to get the case dropped.
                                      > Otherwise, they could go to trial in June.
                                      >
                                      > Managers at that Publix say in a police report that he has shoplifted
                                      > before. But Schwartz says he has short-term memory problems and calls
                                      > the latest incident a misunderstanding.
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                      --
                                      >
                                      > Full Story:
                                      > http://www.sun- sentinel. com/sfl-530pie, 0,2371195. story
                                      >
                                      > Story COMMENTS here:
                                      > http://www.topix. net/forum/ source/south- fl...EASAK4QEEUV LLJU
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Any thoughts?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rick.
                                      >


















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • fjgrande@sbcglobal.net
                                      I am in total awe. Frank M. Grande CheckMate Investigations LLC P.O. Box 825 Bethel, CT 06801 Office: 203.743.6455 Fax:  203.778.2415 Toll: 877.743.6455 Email
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 9, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I am in total awe.

                                        Frank M. Grande CheckMate Investigations LLC
                                        P.O. Box 825
                                        Bethel, CT 06801
                                        Office: 203.743.6455
                                        Fax:  203.778.2415
                                        Toll: 877.743.6455
                                        Email info@...
                                        Web: www.checkmate-investigations.net
                                        CT Lic. #A-2192,
                                        NCISS, NAIS, CALPI
                                        When there are no more moves, CHECKMATE!
                                        WE ARE YOUR LAST
                                        MOVE!
                                         
                                        Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: "bella_mafia@..." <emmylousings@...>

                                        Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:01:35
                                        To:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"


                                        I think in this case it was a legitimate ''senior moment''. Unless you are a senior, and have experienced the  onset of ''senior moments'', I think it would be difficult to imagine what it would be like, to suddenly reach for a common word within your usual vocabulary, and it not "be there''. Or, to have your thoughts suddenly ''go adrift'' when you are on your way to the checkout counter in a store, and suddenly find yourself outside the store! Once I was on my way to the checkout counter in a store, and saw a clerk on my way, and stopped to inquire about an item they might have in stock. By the time I had finished talking to the clerk, I walked straight out the door of the store, totally forgetting to stop at checkout. I realized my mistake immediately out the front door, and reentered the store and explained to the cashier that I had forgotten to pay for the item, and payed. She just looked real doubtful and sour, but did not reply. I was
                                        mortified. Senior moments occur frequently, when we are in our own homes as well. We forget what task we were doing before being interupted, for example, and go on and begin doing something else. Senior moments are embarrassing, a pain in the neck, and sometimes downright scary! ....The guy who posted that perhaps it was only a ''convenient excuse'', for a 79 year old man, will probably have his day of senior moments just like the rest of us. ''Judge not, lest ye be judged''.
                                         
                                        Linda Smith

                                        Bella Mafia

                                        --- On Sun, 6/8/08, David O'Niell <oniellinvestigation <mailto:oniellinvestigations%40mac.com> s@...> wrote:

                                        From: David O'Niell <oniellinvestigation <mailto:oniellinvestigations%40mac.com> s@...>
                                        Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: A "Senior Moment"
                                        To: infoguys-list@ <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Sunday, June 8, 2008, 3:38 PM

                                        I think it's fairly common that when someone begins to suffer from dementia they do
                                        things like this--

                                        --- In infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com, "Ricky Gurley" <rmriinc@... > wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Here is a post that came up on a board that I participate on, and I
                                        > thought it was pretty interesting:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > When senior citizens break the law with minor infractions, should they
                                        > be held accountable and punished like the rest of us or should they be
                                        > treated differently?
                                        >
                                        > I'm posting this because I came across a story where a 79 year old man
                                        > was accused of stealing and thrown in jail. The reader comments caught
                                        > my attention because the story sparked a controversy about how senior
                                        > citizens should be treated in similar situations.
                                        >
                                        > Some people demanded that the elderly man should have been released
                                        > and not harassed. Others claim that he was using his age as an excuse
                                        > to shoplift.
                                        >
                                        > What do you all think? Honest mistake or perfect alibi?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > QUOTE
                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        -
                                        > LAKE WORTH - An elderly Palm Beach County man says he forgot to pay
                                        > for the pie that sent him to jail for 10 hours.
                                        >
                                        > Authorities say 79-year-old George Schwartz didn't pay for a $5.29
                                        > apple pie at a Publix near Lake Worth in April. He was taken to jail
                                        > and charged with retail theft, a misdemeanor punishable by 60 days in
                                        > jail.
                                        >
                                        > His lawyer said Thursday that the cashier who bagged the groceries
                                        > that day also didn't notice the pie left in the basket. Schwartz paid
                                        > for the rest of his groceries.
                                        >
                                        > His attorney adds that they are trying to get the case dropped.
                                        > Otherwise, they could go to trial in June.
                                        >
                                        > Managers at that Publix say in a police report that he has shoplifted
                                        > before. But Schwartz says he has short-term memory problems and calls
                                        > the latest incident a misunderstanding.
                                        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                        --
                                        >
                                        > Full Story:
                                        > http://www.sun- <http://www.sun-> sentinel. com/sfl-530pie, 0,2371195. story
                                        >
                                        > Story COMMENTS here:
                                        > http://www.topix. <http://www.topix.> net/forum/ source/south- fl...EASAK4QEEUV LLJU
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Any thoughts?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Rick.
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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