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RE: [infoguys-list] Re: Los Angeles, CA

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  • Vicki Siedow
    Bob, I love you. You are my soul mate. You also save me a lot of typing. I have to say that I completely agree with you, and worship you from afar. J I know
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Bob, I love you. You are my soul mate. You also save me a lot of typing.
      I have to say that I completely agree with you, and worship you from afar. J



      I know I'm unusually agreeable tonight, but I went to the Xmas parade, and
      am in a good mood.



      Vicki Siedow
      Siedow & Associates Investigations
      & Legal Support Services
      2629 Foothill Blvd. #262
      La Crescenta, CA 91214
      Los Angeles County
      CA PI License # 22852
      800.448.6431 toll free
      818.242.0130 local
      818.688.3295 fax
      <http://siedow.lawandorder.com/> http://Siedow.LawAndOrder.com
      <mailto:Siedow@...> Siedow@...
      Member NCISS, IWWA

      Need economical legal help?
      Concerned about Identity Theft?
      Check the links on my site, or contact me directly.



      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Bob Hrodey
      Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:08 PM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Re: Los Angeles, CA



      Empire Pacific Investigative wrote:
      > Thank you for replying, but it seems like you are in the wonderland. If
      you work with the insurance industry, which I have been since 1987, there
      isn't any insurance company that pay's more then $ 75.00 Dollars an hour and
      to top it off, they don't pay for travel time.
      >

      Somebody is obviously living in wonderland but I'm not sure who, Mike.
      If you get into bed with dogs, you will wake up with fleas. Perhaps
      your problem is spending too much time relying on the insurance industry
      to make your monthly nut. Granted, most of my work is plaintiff
      oriented but I have a couple LARGE insurance defense law firms who use
      me - almost exclusively on their pet cases. I bill my normal rate and
      they do not hesitate to send me out to do interviews, etc. in areas
      where they KNOW up front that they will be paying 7 hours of windshield
      time for a 1-2 hours interview.

      Lest you argue that "that's different, you're working for outside
      counsel," I will grant you that. However, I also get calls DIRECT from
      the claims superintendents -based upon my past successes and work direct
      for the insurance company at the same or higher rate.

      > Yes, we are deserve lot more for our work, but the reality is, competion
      and insurance companies know it. The profit margin is extremly low when you
      sub at $ 30.00 an hour after your time, office fees, marketing, employees,
      WC insurance and other fees going a long with it.
      >

      Then you're doing it wrong. Like Sue and Rick, when I see requests for
      "sub-contractors" at $25-$50/hour who are required to be licensed,
      insured, etc. I laugh. I also believe that in such a case, your
      argument about WC expense, employees, etc. have no place in the
      equation. If I conform to your needs with regard to licensing, etc.
      _I_ am the one incurring the expense of WC, insurance, admin, mileage,
      etc. NOT you. If you are billing $75 and paying me $30 (Ain't gonna
      happen, Mike, even if you were being paid $31/hour by your client<g>)
      you - and others like you - are part of the problem, not the solution.

      Who do you think you're fooling? You can't be all things to all people
      and if your pet insurance client in CA asks you to undertake an
      investigation in, say, Nevada, they know or should know that you aren't
      going to be the one doing it. If you take it on for the same rate as
      always, they can form a couple of impressions:

      a) you're ripping them since you obviously can hire somebody else to do
      it cheaper than you're charging and still make a buck (which will really
      help you when you try to raise your rates crying poor mouth<g>)

      or

      b) you're managing the case for nothing and paying everything to the sub.

      How much better would it be to say, "Fine, you want an investigation in
      an area that I don't cover? We can approach this two ways: 1) As a
      favor to you, I'll try to hook you up direct with a qualified
      investigator out there and put the two of you together, or 2) If you
      wish I will find a qualified investigator who bills at my rate or close
      to it and also manage the investigation from here at my regular hourly
      rate."

      > The only PI's out there that are charging over $ 100.00 Dollars in
      California are not more then a dozen that have several employees working for
      them and continuous work coming in with that rate.
      >

      That might be but again, the reason for this is that folks like you will
      do their bidding for whatever they want to pay.

      I attended a meeting of the WI state association a number of years ago.
      One of the presenters was from the State Public Defenders office. I
      rarely do criminal defense work and would probably NEVER do it for the
      PD. At the time and this was probably less than nine years ago, they
      were discussing the problem with the state pd being slow to pay. They
      were paying these guys $18/hour and $0.21/mile in those days (by
      comparison, IIRC, I was billing $80/hour and $0.40 or $0.45/mile) and
      the rub was that they had to wait in excess of five months after
      submitting their bills and having them approved by the court to get
      their money.

      My solution was simple - take Nancy Reagan's advice and "Just say no!"

      Insurance companies are notoriously cheap - everybody knows that - and
      they force their claims folks (most of whom are good people and know
      where the Bear S**t in the Buckwheat" to parrot the company line. I had
      a claims supt from a VERY large national insurance company call to
      compliment me on a slip and fall case I handled for them on a commercial
      property where they were looking at a settlement cost in excess of
      $125,000 and a potential jury verdict if they rolled the dice of maybe
      $300K or better. I crushed the plaintiff's case and also obtained
      statements from witnesses who were friends of the plaintiff who also
      heard the plaintiff state IN THE PRESENCE OF THE ATTORNEY that the claim
      was fraudulent. Case went from Fortune Cookie status to a pile of dog
      crap or worse in two interviews.

      Claims Supt did not say one word about my hourly rate - $80/h at that
      time - but took issue with my mileage charge of $0.40/mi vs what the
      insurance company pays which she claimed was $0.28/mi. I closed the
      conversation by telling her that I thought it was unusual to save
      somebody over $100,000 and have them complain about something so trivial
      as the mileage charge in that the total difference in the bill HAD I
      knuckled under to her would be about $6.50. If it bothers you, don't
      ever call me again but you WILL pay what I bill.

      I have this sign on the wall in my office. Garfield the Cat is sitting
      back in his easy chair and the caption reads "My Office, My Rules!"
      Words to live by.

      >
      > Anyway, don't have time to write anymore, which I would love to continue,
      but the reallity is there are lot's of people out there that are great and
      are getting paid less then $30.00 an hour.

      They may be great investigators, I'm not arguing that but they are very
      poor businessmen and, quite likely, very poor period!

      --

      Enjoy,

      Bob
      __________________________________________________________
      Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
      Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
      Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
      Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
      email: inquiry@... <mailto:inquiry%40hrodey.com> or rth@...
      <mailto:rth%40hrodey.com>
      Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • suesarkis@aol.com
      Bob & Jim, As Vicki said, thank you for saving me all the time from having to type precisely what you both said. However, I will add one additional
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Bob & Jim,

        As Vicki said, thank you for saving me all the time from having to type
        precisely what you both said. However, I will add one additional suggestion.

        Mike, since you are so busy coupled with being unable or unwilling to pay
        any more than $30/hour, I strongly urge you to get a staff of investigators and
        put them on payroll. You have a lawful branch office in Los Angeles so why
        not use it for its intended purpose? Could it be that you don't really know
        what a branch manager is supposed to do? Does the word "manager" give you a
        clue? By the way, please quit using that unlawful Beverly Hills address.
        One of these days your sponsor in NV might find that his license is revoked or
        suspended for your willful violations of the law. Louis's branch license
        under which you are permitted to work is authorized for City of Los Angeles
        ONLY !!!


        Licensee Name: EMPIRE PACIFIC INVESTIGATIVE SVCS License Type: Private
        Investigator License Number: 16166 License Status: CLEAR _Definition_
        (javascript:windowOpener1(4491)) Expiration Date: March 31, 2009 Issue Date: March
        12, 1993 City: HENDERSON County: OUT OF STATE Actions: No

        Business Owners
        RODRIGUEZ LOUIS CURTIS JR
        Related Licenses/Registrations/Permits
        Number Name Type Status Actions _5251_
        (http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=5251&P_LTE_ID=652) EMPIRE PACIFIC
        INVESTIGATIVE SVCS Private Investigator - Branch CLEAR No


        Licensee Name: EMPIRE PACIFIC INVESTIGATIVE SVCS License Type: Private
        Investigator - Branch License Number: 5251 License Status: CLEAR _Definition_
        (javascript:windowOpener1(4491)) Expiration Date: September 30, 2009 Issue
        Date: September 30, 2003 City: LOS ANGELES County: LOS ANGELES Actions: No

        Sincerely yours,
        Sue
        ________________________
        Sue Sarkis
        Sarkis Detective Agency


        (est. 1976)
        PI 6564
        _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

        1346 Ethel Street
        Glendale, CA 91207-1826
        818-242-2505
        818-242-9824 FAX

        "one Nation under God"

        If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
        a military veteran !



        **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
        products.
        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dts683
        ... Bob, I agree with everything you said, with the exception of one minor point. Having just gone through an insurance audit, I can tell you that most PIs do
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
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          Bob Hrodey wrote:

          > Then you're doing it wrong. Like Sue and Rick, when I see requests
          > for "sub-contractors" at $25-$50/hour who are required to be
          > licensed,insured, etc. I laugh. I also believe that in such a case,
          > your argument about WC expense, employees, etc. have no place in the
          > equation. If I conform to your needs with regard to licensing, etc.
          > I am the one incurring the expense of WC, insurance, admin,
          > mileage, etc. NOT you.


          Bob,

          I agree with everything you said, with the exception of one minor
          point. Having just gone through an insurance audit, I can tell you
          that most PIs do not have workers' compensation insurance. If I
          engage the services of either an individual PI or a PI agency and
          they do not have workers' compensation coverage, I am on the hook for
          paying that premium. Not one of the individual PIs that I engaged to
          do work for me on a subcontract basis had workers' compensation
          coverage; and only two of the PI agencies did. All of them had
          general liability coverage, but that is probably only because the
          state requires it. It doesn't shock me that the individual PIs
          lacked workers' compensation coverage, but you would be surprised how
          many PI agencies, even PI agencies with actual employees, lack that
          coverage.

          The bottom line is that the contractor is more than likely
          left "holding the bag" to pay workers' compensation coverage on the
          subcontractor. On the other hand, it is likely that the contractor
          doesn't have workers' compensation coverage anyway. If the
          contractor does happen to have workers' compensation coverage, the
          rate is probably around 4% at the most. The contractor is still
          going to get away without having to pay matching social security and
          medicare (6.2% and 1.45% respectively) along with federal and state
          unemployment taxes (varies) and general liability insurance (around
          4%).

          I don't necessarily take issue with people offering assignments at
          ridiculously low rates to other PIs. We all have the capacity to
          say "NO" and some of us should exercise it more. It feels good to
          say "NO" to a case or client; and all of us should "just say no" to
          these companies wanting to pay ridiculously low rates. If we all
          just say no, these companies will be forced to change their practices.

          I do take issue with companies that advertise and accept cases in
          states in which they are not licensed. These are the companies we
          all see everyday posting that they "need assistance" with a case in
          ABC City. They should say the following if they want to be close to
          accurate: "We advertise our company on the internet as being a large
          national expert PI agency, so now we have a client in some far away
          state who was dumb enough to believe our bullshit facade. We need a
          local PI willing to do the actual field work for less than half their
          normal rate. By the way, you will have to wait 30 days or more to
          get paid."


          Daniel Schroeder, Licensed Private Detective
          Metro Detective Agency, LLC
          P.O. Box 1050, DeKalb, IL 60115
          Office: (815) 787-1111
          Cellular: (815) 757-8940
          Fax: (866) 727-2051
          info@...
          http://www.metrodetectiveagency.com
        • Bob Hrodey
          ... IIRC, my firm was one of the ones that did, no? You point is well taken, just as it is, as you say, a minor point when taken in the context of my statement
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            dts683 wrote:
            > Bob Hrodey wrote:
            >
            >> Then you're doing it wrong. Like Sue and Rick, when I see requests
            >> for "sub-contractors" at $25-$50/hour who are required to be
            >> licensed,insured, etc. I laugh. I also believe that in such a case,
            >> your argument about WC expense, employees, etc. have no place in the
            >> equation. If I conform to your needs with regard to licensing, etc.
            >> I am the one incurring the expense of WC, insurance, admin,
            >> mileage, etc. NOT you.
            >>
            >
            >
            > Bob,
            >
            > I agree with everything you said, with the exception of one minor
            > point. Having just gone through an insurance audit, I can tell you
            > that most PIs do not have workers' compensation insurance. If I
            > engage the services of either an individual PI or a PI agency and
            > they do not have workers' compensation coverage, I am on the hook for
            > paying that premium. Not one of the individual PIs that I engaged to
            > do work for me on a subcontract basis had workers' compensation
            > coverage; and only two of the PI agencies did. All of them had
            >

            IIRC, my firm was one of the ones that did, no?

            You point is well taken, just as it is, as you say, a minor point when
            taken in the context of my statement above, i.e. I was referring to
            those contractors who are looking to have their subs fully licensed and
            insured. If that's the case, my argument stands.

            Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
            contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
            the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
            insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
            for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor.

            > The bottom line is that the contractor is more than likely
            > left "holding the bag" to pay workers' compensation coverage on the
            > subcontractor. On the other hand, it is likely that the contractor
            > doesn't have workers' compensation coverage anyway. If the
            > contractor does happen to have workers' compensation coverage, the
            >

            Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
            contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
            the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
            insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
            for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor.


            --

            Enjoy,

            Bob
            ________________________________________________________________
            Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
            Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
            Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
            Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
            email: inquiry@... or rth@...
            Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Parker
            Bob said: Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those contractors who don t have WC themselves, well, they better hope that the guy
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
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              Bob said:

              "Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
              contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
              the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
              insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
              for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor."

              Then said:

              "Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
              contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
              the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
              insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
              for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor."


              That Alzheimer's is a bitch, eh?

              :o)



              -----Original Message-----
              From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Bob Hrodey
              Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 2:56 PM
              To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Re: Los Angeles, CA

              dts683 wrote:
              > Bob Hrodey wrote:
              >
              >> Then you're doing it wrong. Like Sue and Rick, when I see requests
              >> for "sub-contractors" at $25-$50/hour who are required to be
              >> licensed,insured, etc. I laugh. I also believe that in such a case,
              >> your argument about WC expense, employees, etc. have no place in the
              >> equation. If I conform to your needs with regard to licensing, etc.
              >> I am the one incurring the expense of WC, insurance, admin,
              >> mileage, etc. NOT you.
              >>
              >
              >
              > Bob,
              >
              > I agree with everything you said, with the exception of one minor
              > point. Having just gone through an insurance audit, I can tell you
              > that most PIs do not have workers' compensation insurance. If I
              > engage the services of either an individual PI or a PI agency and
              > they do not have workers' compensation coverage, I am on the hook for
              > paying that premium. Not one of the individual PIs that I engaged to
              > do work for me on a subcontract basis had workers' compensation
              > coverage; and only two of the PI agencies did. All of them had
              >

              IIRC, my firm was one of the ones that did, no?

              You point is well taken, just as it is, as you say, a minor point when
              taken in the context of my statement above, i.e. I was referring to
              those contractors who are looking to have their subs fully licensed and
              insured. If that's the case, my argument stands.

              Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
              contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
              the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
              insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
              for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor.

              > The bottom line is that the contractor is more than likely
              > left "holding the bag" to pay workers' compensation coverage on the
              > subcontractor. On the other hand, it is likely that the contractor
              > doesn't have workers' compensation coverage anyway. If the
              > contractor does happen to have workers' compensation coverage, the
              >

              Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
              contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
              the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
              insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
              for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor.

              --

              Enjoy,

              Bob
              __________________________________________________________
              Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
              Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
              Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
              Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
              email: inquiry@... <mailto:inquiry%40hrodey.com> or rth@...
              <mailto:rth%40hrodey.com>
              Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob Hrodey
              ... Hmmm Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V is Copy & Paste, Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V is Cut & Paste. Think I got it now! IF only I can remember. OTOH, I can hide my own Easter Eggs and
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Jim Parker wrote:
                > Bob said:
                >
                > "Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
                > contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
                > the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
                > insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
                > for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor."
                >
                > Then said:
                >
                > "Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
                > contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
                > the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
                > insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the hook
                > for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor."
                >
                >
                > That Alzheimer's is a bitch, eh?
                >


                Hmmm Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V is Copy & Paste, Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V is Cut & Paste.

                Think I got it now! IF only I can remember.

                OTOH, I can hide my own Easter Eggs and make new friends every day.

                --

                Enjoy,

                Bob
                ________________________________________________________________
                Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                email: inquiry@... or rth@...
                Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
              • dts683
                ... Exactly. Unfortunately, the scenario I believe will cause the biggest shockwave in the PI subcontracting world requires that a subcontracted PI get killed
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bob Hrodey wrote:

                  > Your argument is also valid in some cases and with regard to those
                  > contractors who don't have WC themselves, well, they better hope that
                  > the guy they hire at $30 an hour is playing heads up ball since
                  > insurance or no, they will likely find that they are still on the
                  > hook for injuries incurred by their uninsured sub contractor.

                  Exactly. Unfortunately, the scenario I believe will cause the biggest
                  shockwave in the PI subcontracting world requires that a subcontracted
                  PI get killed or sustain great bodily harm when the contractor is on
                  the hook for the uninsured subcontractor's workers' compensation
                  claim. If I as a contractor am on the hook for paying the premium on
                  an uninsured subcontractor, it would follow that I would be on the hook
                  for any claims too.

                  > IIRC, my firm was one of the ones that did, no?

                  Yes, you were one of the two; and you probably know who the other is
                  too. During my audit I found at least three Illinois PI agencies with
                  actual employees who have no workers' compensation coverage. I can
                  understand a sole practitioner not having workers' compensation
                  coverage, but not an agency with actual employees. If you have an
                  agency with actual employees and you don't have workers' compensation
                  coverage, you are gambling with not only your business, but your
                  personal financial well-being. A seriously injured or dead employee
                  could easily bankrupt not only your business, but you personally.


                  Daniel Schroeder, Licensed Private Detective
                  Metro Detective Agency, LLC
                  P.O. Box 1050, DeKalb, IL 60115
                  Office: (815) 787-1111
                  Cellular: (815) 757-8940
                  Fax: (866) 727-2051
                  info@...
                  http://www.metrodetectiveagency.com
                • Vicki Siedow
                  I agree with Sue and Rick, although I m not quite as pricey as Rick. Still, I pay my subs well. I have raised my prices a couple of times in the last couple
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree with Sue and Rick, although I'm not quite as pricey as Rick. Still,
                    I pay my subs well. I have raised my prices a couple of times in the last
                    couple of years, and each time business has increased. I can now live more
                    comfortably, and with a lot less stress, in part because I can now afford a
                    better quality of subs. My clients are happier with the work, and in many
                    cases their overall cost is the same or less, because I now have the
                    resources to complete assignments more quickly and with greater accuracy. I
                    have more successful outcomes, as well.



                    I just wanted to add to Rick's comment about charitable institutions that
                    many who run those institutions make very substantial salaries. Even
                    charities can be profitable.



                    I see in a later post that Mike says this is insurance work. He is correct
                    in that insurance work generally pays less. They are always price shopping.



                    Vicki Siedow
                    Siedow & Associates Investigations
                    & Legal Support Services
                    2629 Foothill Blvd. #262
                    La Crescenta, CA 91214
                    Los Angeles County
                    CA PI License # 22852
                    800.448.6431 toll free
                    818.242.0130 local
                    818.688.3295 fax
                    <http://siedow.lawandorder.com/> http://Siedow.LawAndOrder.com
                    <mailto:Siedow@...> Siedow@...
                    Member NCISS, IWWA

                    Need economical legal help?
                    Concerned about Identity Theft?
                    Check the links on my site, or contact me directly.



                    From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
                    Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:22 PM
                    To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: Los Angeles, CA



                    --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                    <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com> , suesarkis@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Louis -
                    >
                    > You cannot have it both ways. You cannot want to locate GOOD
                    QUALITY
                    > investigators when you are only offering $30/hour. I laugh when I
                    see such
                    > nonsense. When I first opened my doors in 1976 as a sole
                    practitioner having taken
                    > many years to accumulate my required hours, I charged $35 per hour
                    back then.
                    > That was more than 30 years ago.
                    >
                    > You get what you pay for !!!
                    >
                    >
                    > Sincerely yours,
                    > Sue
                    > ________________________
                    > Sue Sarkis
                    > Sarkis Detective Agency

                    Sue is RIGHT ON THE MONEY! I pay every investigator that I have
                    subcontracting work from me at least $100.00/HR.; when I am able to
                    assign work to them. In my honest opinion, the hourly fee for a P.I.
                    subcontracting work should not be below $100.00/HR., and as long as
                    they don't try to "take advantage", they also have all reasonable
                    expenses paid. I also give them a retainer to start the work with.
                    And I still make money off of their work.

                    I am not trying to be offensive here, but when I see other P.I.s
                    offering $30.00/HR., and $50.00/HR., I wonder just how business savvy
                    they are? It does sound "business savvy" to reduce the subcontractor
                    rates and increase your profit margin on the surface; but if your
                    reduced rates are going to net you results that are poor in quality,
                    you are doing more damage to your company in the long run, and you
                    are setting yourself up to immediately lose a client. When you reduce
                    the rates that you are willing to pay subcontractors down to where
                    only desperate people will accept your offer, you are more than
                    likely not getting a subcontractor that will do quality work for you.
                    At the point that you have actually subcontracted a job to someone
                    that is willing to work for $30.00/HR., you have opened yourself up
                    to the possibility of having to have the work done over again,
                    perhaps having the case damaged beyond repair, client loss, a
                    potential law suit, and the possibility of damaging your company's
                    reputation. A profit of 85% is not such a good thing when you get
                    sued for three times the amount of money you made on the entire case,
                    or more. Nor are high profits a good thing if they affect your
                    overall industry reputation and cause you to lose work due to this
                    effect on your reputation.

                    I am not saying that you can't get a "dud" for $100.00/HR., what I AM
                    saying is when you pay a reasonable fee, you broaden your applicant
                    pool, thereby giving you more subcontractors to choose from, and you
                    give yourself a wider selection of quality investigators by doing so.
                    You will probably have to deal with the occasional P.I. that may try
                    to take advantage of your "generous nature", but you will probably
                    have LESS problems with this than you would if you continue to hire
                    at $30.00/HR.; because a quality, professional P.I. is going to make
                    sure that you fully understand the cost when you subcontract work to
                    him or her, and they won't deviate from the original agreement.

                    I guess one of the things you may want to consider in doing this is
                    upping your fee? I suppose it is possible that you might not be able
                    to afford much more than $30.00/HR. to a subcontractor? If that is
                    the case, your position is understandable, however you are doing
                    yourself a disservice if this IS the case. You should be charging at
                    least (the very minimum) $125.00/HR when you take a case.

                    You do get what you pay for. If you expect to get quality results,
                    then you have to pay for quality people. Let's not deceive ourselves
                    here; we are ALL in business to make money. There is no shame in
                    making money in business. If we wanted to be a charity, we would have
                    structured our companies to be charitable organizations. You have to
                    acknowledge this principle for your subcontractors, as well as for
                    yourself.

                    Rick.

                    Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
                    "He Who Forgets, Will Be Destined To Remember"
                    "You'll Find No White Flags Here"

                    MAIL BOX: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
                    OFFICE ADDRESS: 607 N. Providence, Columbia, MO. 65203

                    Phone: (888) 571-0958
                    Fax: (877) 795-9800
                    Cell: (573) 529-0808

                    Email
                    RMRI-Inc@... <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>

                    Webpage
                    http://www.rmriinc.com





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bob Hrodey
                    ... That is one of the true mysteries of this business that I learned quite early on. Like anyone else I was hesitant to bump my prices up when I was first
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Vicki Siedow wrote:
                      > I have raised my prices a couple of times in the last
                      > couple of years, and each time business has increased.

                      That is one of the true mysteries of this business that I learned quite
                      early on. Like anyone else I was hesitant to bump my prices up when I
                      was first getting started. I did so reluctantly, fully expecting an
                      exodus - mass or otherwise - to occur. Business actually increased.
                      Figured it was a fluke and bumped the rate by 20% the next time
                      literally hoping to drive away some of the marginal clients who were
                      penny pinchers and always seemed to expect 8 hours of work for 5 hours
                      of pay. Didn't happen then either and so far as I can tell has never
                      happened in my experience. Higher hourly rate (within reason, of
                      course) brings in more business.

                      Truly strange.

                      Another brief story in re: low pay to subs that might strike a nerve
                      with some others here but, nonetheless, it's something to think about.

                      A long while back and for quite some time there were two investigative
                      firms in my area. Me and the other guy. The other guy had been doing
                      it for about 5-7 years before I started out. Like me, he also worked
                      for the sheriff's police and was doing it (back then) part-time. He had
                      a good load of clients as did I. He was getting time starved (I'm sure
                      many of you have that problem from time to time, if not more
                      frequently. It's where you have enough work to keep you busy 20 hours a
                      day but you don't want to work that much... or have to.)

                      At this point he asked me if I could give him a hand with some cases as
                      he was severely overloaded. I didn't have a lot of time but he was a
                      friend and I said I'd help him out if I could. He asked me how much I
                      was charging. At that time, about 22 years ago, I think I was getting
                      about $35-$40 hour. He said that he couldn't possibly pay that much as
                      he was only billing $22/hr. I told him that there was no way that I'd
                      sub for him for anything less than $32. He bitched and moaned and then
                      said he'd pay me $30 and no more. I told him that I wouldn't do it even
                      if he paid me $40/hr. He asked why not. My response was that if he's
                      billing $22 and paying me $30, $32 or, even $40 an hour, he'd have to
                      pad the bill to make any money since he refused to raise his rates for
                      fear of losing clients. That meant that no matter how great my work
                      product was, HIS clients would be looking at the reports and thinking
                      "Nice work but why the hell did it take Hrodey 4 hours to do a 1½hr job.

                      He simply could not believe (perhaps, RECOGNIZE is the better word) that
                      if he doubled his price from $22. to, say, $40 or $45 an hour, that even
                      if he lost 50% of his clients, he'd still make the same money in half
                      the time. Knowing what I was charging should have also told him that
                      his erstwhile clients (if any) weren't going to rush to my door in an
                      effort to get a better rate.

                      Realize your worth and work to live - don't live to work!


                      --

                      Enjoy,

                      Bob
                      ________________________________________________________________
                      Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                      Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                      Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                      Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                      email: inquiry@... or rth@...
                      Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
                    • suesarkis@aol.com
                      Folks - Let me give you my understanding of insurance the way I believe it to be. Having just gotten off the telephone with an attorney to make certain I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Folks -

                        Let me give you my understanding of insurance the way I believe it to be.
                        Having just gotten off the telephone with an attorney to make certain I wasn't
                        losing my mind, I feel confident.

                        The majority of subbed cases go to sole-proprietors. Sole proprietors
                        cannot get W/C insurance. Even if they have E&O as well as liability coverage,
                        none of those policies will cover him/her if injured on the job. Now, whether
                        or not you the CONTRACTOR will be responsible versus the CONTRACTEE has many
                        issues to consider including direct/indirect control, who demands what hours
                        are worked, who supplies the equipment, etc., etc., etc. Bottom line, if I
                        am a contractee working for you the contractor and I get injured in a
                        vehicular accident while conducting a surveillance, I better just keep my mouth shut
                        and contact my motor vehicle ins. carrier just as I would in any other
                        accident. Same holds true for all other issues.

                        If, on the other hand, you subcontract to a company whereby the contractee
                        has employees, just by the definition of the beast, he/she has W/C coverage for
                        the employees. If not, they are not employees and they are all violating
                        the law in any of the states that require licensure.

                        Upon the advice of numerous counsel, I have been bare since the mid to late
                        '80's. Long story about a 10 mil lawsuit but when all was said and done and
                        the jury awarded me a "special verdict" my attorney advised I drop all
                        insurance. If you don't want to use my services because of same, be my guest.
                        That leaves that much more of me for my other clients. However, don't think
                        for one second that you cannot get insurance work without coverage as I am
                        handling 2 different insurance cases right now and both carriers know full well I
                        am not covered.

                        Unless one of the insurance agents come and push me in front of a moving
                        vehicle, anything that happens to me is brought about by my own actions and why
                        would I sue anyone?

                        One other issue to cover is the fact that NO insurance policy will cover
                        intentional illegal acts. So, if you think that just because I, the CONTRACTEE,
                        have E&O or Liability coverage that you, the CONTRACTOR, are protected
                        should I unlawfully obtain bank account information or commit some other invasion
                        violation or any other unscrupulous act, I still have that bridge for sale.
                        Sorry, it will fall right back in your lap since you hired me.

                        Insurance coverage is NOT what it is cracked up to be. Keep your nose clean
                        and perform your assignment to the very best of your ability and you will
                        walk away a winner. Trust me, when that frivolous lawsuit is filed and your
                        insurance company wants to make a "nuisance settlement offer" if you have any
                        pride whatsoever as well as concern for your license, you will "hold them
                        harmless" and tell them to take a hike. You will wind up handling the case
                        yourself anyway.


                        Sincerely yours,
                        Sue
                        ________________________
                        Sue Sarkis
                        Sarkis Detective Agency

                        (est. 1976)
                        PI 6564
                        _www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

                        1346 Ethel Street
                        Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                        818-242-2505
                        818-242-9824 FAX

                        "one Nation under God"

                        If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
                        a military veteran !



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                        products.
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                      • Glad4JC@aol.com
                        Sue, I am reading backwards so I am playing catch up. But that sounds right to me, so if you can tip me off who will hire an uninsured person. I am
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Sue,

                          I am reading backwards so I am playing catch up. But that sounds right to
                          me, so if you can tip me off who will hire an uninsured person. I am probably
                          going to get E & O with liability by year end, but in the mean time, I would
                          gladly take work from insurance cos who would hire me, I didn't think any
                          would so I never inquired. Obviously I would rather have it, and I agree, if I
                          am in my car and some accident occurs it is business as usual, I pay for car
                          insurance for that.

                          I will read back and see what is going on in the conversation.


                          Gladys Brierley
                          Accurate Investigations
                          PO BOX 872
                          Newton County, Mississippi
                          601-480-3181 bus
                          601-683-2094 fax
                          Bus License # 1499
                          Glad4JC@...
                          Member NAIS, ACI, IA
                          _www.freewebs.com/glad4jc_ (http://www.freewebs.com/glad4jc)
                          _www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator_
                          (http://www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator)


                          Services include but not limited to, online record searches, courier
                          services, domestic-fidelity checks, employee theft, process service, witness
                          interview, surveillance, specialized referrals for computer forensics, recovery &
                          extractions, missing children cases. Also willing to work with teams on cold
                          cases. Professional courtesy to other PI's & Attorneys . I promise to give you
                          my very best efforts and safeguard client confidentiality.

                          _PARENTS-AGAINST-PREDATORS : PARENTS AGAINST PREDATORS_
                          (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PARENTS-AGAINST-PREDATORS/?yguid=206815254)
                          _MississippiPrivateInvestigators : MISSISSIPPI PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS_
                          (http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MississippiPrivateInvestigators/?yguid=8099974
                          )

                          _Find me on MySpace and be my friend!_
                          (http://www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator)


                          This e-mail message is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
                          Act, 18 U.S.C. §2510-2521 and is legally privileged. Unauthorized review, use
                          or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error,
                          please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete the message. Unauthorized
                          interception of this e-mail is a violation of federal criminal law.


                          In a message dated 12/2/2007 5:39:32 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          suesarkis@... writes:




                          Folks -

                          Let me give you my understanding of insurance the way I believe it to be.
                          Having just gotten off the telephone with an attorney to make certain I
                          wasn't
                          losing my mind, I feel confident.

                          The majority of subbed cases go to sole-proprietors. Sole proprietors
                          cannot get W/C insurance. Even if they have E&O as well as liability
                          coverage,
                          none of those policies will cover him/her if injured on the job. Now,
                          whether
                          or not you the CONTRACTOR will be responsible versus the CONTRACTEE has many
                          issues to consider including direct/indirect control, who demands what hours
                          are worked, who supplies the equipment, etc., etc., etc. Bottom line, if I
                          am a contractee working for you the contractor and I get injured in a
                          vehicular accident while conducting a surveillance, I better just keep my
                          mouth shut
                          and contact my motor vehicle ins. carrier just as I would in any other
                          accident. Same holds true for all other issues.

                          If, on the other hand, you subcontract to a company whereby the contractee
                          has employees, just by the definition of the beast, he/she has W/C coverage
                          for
                          the employees. If not, they are not employees and they are all violating
                          the law in any of the states that require licensure.

                          Upon the advice of numerous counsel, I have been bare since the mid to late
                          '80's. Long story about a 10 mil lawsuit but when all was said and done and
                          the jury awarded me a "special verdict" my attorney advised I drop all
                          insurance. If you don't want to use my services because of same, be my
                          guest.
                          That leaves that much more of me for my other clients. However, don't think
                          for one second that you cannot get insurance work without coverage as I am
                          handling 2 different insurance cases right now and both carriers know full
                          well I
                          am not covered.

                          Unless one of the insurance agents come and push me in front of a moving
                          vehicle, anything that happens to me is brought about by my own actions and
                          why
                          would I sue anyone?

                          One other issue to cover is the fact that NO insurance policy will cover
                          intentional illegal acts. So, if you think that just because I, the
                          CONTRACTEE,
                          have E&O or Liability coverage that you, the CONTRACTOR, are protected
                          should I unlawfully obtain bank account information or commit some other
                          invasion
                          violation or any other unscrupulous act, I still have that bridge for sale.
                          Sorry, it will fall right back in your lap since you hired me.

                          Insurance coverage is NOT what it is cracked up to be. Keep your nose clean
                          and perform your assignment to the very best of your ability and you will
                          walk away a winner. Trust me, when that frivolous lawsuit is filed and your
                          insurance company wants to make a "nuisance settlement offer" if you have
                          any
                          pride whatsoever as well as concern for your license, you will "hold them
                          harmless" and tell them to take a hike. You will wind up handling the case
                          yourself anyway.


                          Sincerely yours,
                          Sue
                          ________________________
                          Sue Sarkis
                          Sarkis Detective Agency

                          (est. 1976)
                          PI 6564
                          _www.sarkispi._www.s_http://www.sarkispihttp:_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/) )

                          1346 Ethel Street
                          Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                          818-242-2505
                          818-242-9824 FAX

                          "one Nation under God"

                          If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
                          a military veteran !

                          ******************************************<WBR>*********<WBR>*********<WBR>***
                          ***
                          products.
                          (_http://money.http://money.<WBhttp://money.http://monhttp://money.<WBhttp_
                          (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) )

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Glad4JC@aol.com
                          I don t see many of those being offered in Mississippi, but when I do I often wonder how they think anyone can afford to work so cheap and wait so long to
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 2, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I don't see many of those being offered in Mississippi, but when I do I
                            often wonder how they think anyone can afford to work so cheap and wait so long
                            to get paid and still have a long resume and insurance, lol.

                            I am not sure I like the idea of people from all over the country
                            advertising here in my state and then trying to get me to do the work cheaply. I don't
                            mind if its a good working relationship with a person who is trying to build
                            a legitimate nation wide or several states business, I have someone I work
                            with like that and it is ok. But it does seem to be a little misleading to
                            overreach into states with big $ advertising and then offer the situation at
                            rock bottom prices to eager newbies, like me. I guess I am doing the right
                            thing by saying NO to any company that wants me to do work for so little and
                            have all their requirements and get paid in 30 days. I feel better already, lol.

                            Gladys Brierley
                            Accurate Investigations
                            PO BOX 872
                            Newton County, Mississippi
                            601-480-3181 bus
                            601-683-2094 fax
                            Bus License # 1499
                            Glad4JC@...
                            Member NAIS, ACI, IA
                            _www.freewebs.com/glad4jc_ (http://www.freewebs.com/glad4jc)
                            _www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator_
                            (http://www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator)


                            Services include but not limited to, online record searches, courier
                            services, domestic-fidelity checks, employee theft, process service, witness
                            interview, surveillance, specialized referrals for computer forensics, recovery &
                            extractions, missing children cases. Also willing to work with teams on cold
                            cases. Professional courtesy to other PI's & Attorneys . I promise to give you
                            my very best efforts and safeguard client confidentiality.

                            _PARENTS-AGAINST-PREDATORS : PARENTS AGAINST PREDATORS_
                            (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PARENTS-AGAINST-PREDATORS/?yguid=206815254)
                            _MississippiPrivateInvestigators : MISSISSIPPI PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS_ (http:
                            //finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MississippiPrivateInvestigators/?yguid=8099974
                            )

                            _Find me on MySpace and be my friend!_
                            (http://www.myspace.com/mississippiinvestigator)


                            This e-mail message is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
                            Act, 18 U.S.C. §2510-2521 and is legally privileged. Unauthorized review, use
                            or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you have received this in error,
                            please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete the message. Unauthorized
                            interception of this e-mail is a violation of federal criminal law.


                            In a message dated 12/2/2007 11:33:07 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                            administrator@... writes:




                            Bob Hrodey wrote:

                            > Then you're doing it wrong. Like Sue and Rick, when I see requests
                            > for "sub-contractors" at $25-$50/hour who are required to be
                            > licensed,insured, etc. I laugh. I also believe that in such a case,
                            > your argument about WC expense, employees, etc. have no place in the
                            > equation. If I conform to your needs with regard to licensing, etc.
                            > I am the one incurring the expense of WC, insurance, admin,
                            > mileage, etc. NOT you.

                            Bob,

                            I agree with everything you said, with the exception of one minor
                            point. Having just gone through an insurance audit, I can tell you
                            that most PIs do not have workers' compensation insurance. If I
                            engage the services of either an individual PI or a PI agency and
                            they do not have workers' compensation coverage, I am on the hook for
                            paying that premium. Not one of the individual PIs that I engaged to
                            do work for me on a subcontract basis had workers' compensation
                            coverage; and only two of the PI agencies did. All of them had
                            general liability coverage, but that is probably only because the
                            state requires it. It doesn't shock me that the individual PIs
                            lacked workers' compensation coverage, but you would be surprised how
                            many PI agencies, even PI agencies with actual employees, lack that
                            coverage.

                            The bottom line is that the contractor is more than likely
                            left "holding the bag" to pay workers' compensation coverage on the
                            subcontractor. On the other hand, it is likely that the contractor
                            doesn't have workers' compensation coverage anyway. If the
                            contractor does happen to have workers' compensation coverage, the
                            rate is probably around 4% at the most. The contractor is still
                            going to get away without having to pay matching social security and
                            medicare (6.2% and 1.45% respectively) along with federal and state
                            unemployment taxes (varies) and general liability insurance (around
                            4%).

                            I don't necessarily take issue with people offering assignments at
                            ridiculously low rates to other PIs. We all have the capacity to
                            say "NO" and some of us should exercise it more. It feels good to
                            say "NO" to a case or client; and all of us should "just say no" to
                            these companies wanting to pay ridiculously low rates. If we all
                            just say no, these companies will be forced to change their practices.

                            I do take issue with companies that advertise and accept cases in
                            states in which they are not licensed. These are the companies we
                            all see everyday posting that they "need assistance" with a case in
                            ABC City. They should say the following if they want to be close to
                            accurate: "We advertise our company on the internet as being a large
                            national expert PI agency, so now we have a client in some far away
                            state who was dumb enough to believe our bullshit facade. We need a
                            local PI willing to do the actual field work for less than half their
                            normal rate. By the way, you will have to wait 30 days or more to
                            get paid."








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