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RE: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2

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  • Jim Parker
    I m sure there are lots of variable answers, but if you don t ask a specific question, then
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 6, 2007
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      <<<< Sometimes there are "several varying correct answers". >>>>

      I'm sure there are lots of variable answers, but if you don't ask a specific
      question, then you won't get a specific answer.

      The short answer is, as I said, if you were going to sub-contract another
      company to do some work for you, the ultimate decision on what that company
      is going to charge you is theirs and theirs alone. Yes, you can negotiate
      (as I also said), but the final decision is entirely up to them. You have
      NO say in what their fees are. If they decide to give you a 10, 20 or 50%
      discount, or if they will agree to do the job for $xxx, that's their
      decision to make, not yours.

      The best you can do is ask for a discounted rate or whether they would
      accept the assignment for a certain amount, but whether they agree to your
      terms or not is not your decision to make.

      When you sub-contract, you are not taking on an employee where you can say
      "well, I'm going to pay you $20 to start with and see how you do". When you
      have to bring in a sub-contractor "that specializes in a particular type of
      investigation", you're invariably bringing in someone who has skills and
      knowledge that you don't have. You generally need them more than they need
      you (especially if you are going to nickel and dime them). You no more get
      to decide what they are going to charge you than you can decide what a
      plumber will charge you to fix your leaky pipes.

      Whether you agree or disagree with me, doesn't matter one bit. What's
      important is what agreement you made with the sub-contractor and barring few
      exceptions, you don't get to change the rules afterwards.

      Jim


      -----Original Message-----
      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of RMRI, Inc.
      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 1:41 AM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2



      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com> ]
      On Behalf Of Jim Parker
      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:28 AM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2

      <<< I disagree.. >>>

      Let's see... You ask a question that you clearly don't know the answer to
      (otherwise you wouldn't have asked), two people give you the exact same
      answer, and you "disagree".

      I don't think this question has a clear answer, perhaps that is why I asked
      it? In other words, I have my answer for now, this could change based on the
      opinions I get here. I had it before I asked the question and still wanted
      to see what other people's thoughts were on the subject. However, I realize
      only Jim Parker can be sure that he is right all of the time, some of us
      don't have that perfect clarity of mind like you do, Jim. I, myself am
      constantly checking to see if my opinion is on par with others opinions as
      related to this profession of ours.. if I find I am "wrong", I can adjust my
      view based on a general consensus from others that I ask. Sometimes there
      are "several varying correct answers".

      Why didn't you just ask yourself the question and provide yourself with
      whatever answer suited you best?

      I just don't like "talking" to myself, I suppose..

      Again, you will pay the subcontractor (an INDEPENDENT business) whatever he
      decides to charge you and whatever you jointly agree on, but ultimately, the
      decision of what you are going to be charged is entirely up to the
      sub-contractor.

      No, the decision as to what the sub-contractor will charge is up to the
      sub-contractor. The decision on what I will be charged is up to me.. Ahhh..
      That's my point..

      <<<< I believe you have enough say
      in the matter to simply say "Nice talking to ya, I'll look at other people
      that specializes in your field". >>>>>

      And the sub-contractor, as Bob noted, may have no hesitation in telling you
      "good luck" and hanging up the phone. If you have to go out of your area or
      perhaps out of state to find someone who can do the work you need done, it
      tends to indicate there isn't one on every street corner, so your options
      are limited. Someone who commands a reasonable fee and keeps busy isn't
      likely to bend to the whims of someone who wants to hire him.

      That is one of the variables I mentioned...

      <<<< I guess the more specific question here would be, what would
      you find acceptable to be billed for and what would you not find acceptable
      to be billed for from your sub-contractors? >>>>

      I'd expect to be billed for precisely what the sub-contractor agreement says
      I am going to be billed for. If the agreement says the sub-contractor is
      going to charge you $250/hour plus all expenses, then that's what you should
      expect to be billed for and that's what you'll pay.

      This I can agree with.

      Jim

      -----Original Message-----
      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
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      On Behalf Of RMRI, Inc.
      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:56 AM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2

      I disagree.. I think as the contractor you have ALL of the say in the
      matter.. At least, I'd say as the person contracting the work, you have the
      stronger position in the negotiation, unless there is only one
      sub-contractor in the whole world that can do what you need done. More
      specifically, I disagree with this statement: "Although you can negotiate,
      you don't have much of a say in the matter.". I believe you have enough say
      in the matter to simply say "Nice talking to ya, I'll look at other people
      that specializes in your field". In other words, the first decision in
      whether or not there will even be a "contractor - sub-contractor
      relationship" rests with the contractor, which in my opinion gives the
      contractor "more say in the matter". Of course, there are those of us that
      are financially stable enough to not really care one way or the other.
      Personally, I can say that currently I am in a position that I would not
      care one way or another from a sub-contractor's point of view. I also
      remember a time when I would care, and from that past standpoint, I would
      have to say that the contractor would have had the "upper hand" in such a
      negotiation. This is to say that there are probably other factors that would
      determine what could be negotiated and what could not, some of the factors
      would specifically depend on the two people in the negotiation.

      However, more to the point; I am speaking more of when you negotiate with
      the sub-contractor. Do you apply the same payment principles as what you
      would expect? I guess the more specific question here would be, what would
      you find acceptable to be billed for and what would you not find acceptable
      to be billed for from your sub-contractors?

      Rick.

      Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
      "He Who Forgets, Will Be Destined To Remember"

      "You'll Find No White Flags Here"

      MAIL BOX: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
      OFFICE ADDRESS: 607 N. Providence, Columbia, MO. 65203

      Phone: (888) 571-0958
      Fax: (877) 795-9800
      Cell: (573) 529-0808

      Email
      RMRI-Inc@... <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>
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      <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>

      Webpage
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      <http://www.rmriinc.com> > <http://www.rmriinc.com/
      <http://www.rmriinc.com/>
      <http://www.rmriinc.com/ <http://www.rmriinc.com/> > >

      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
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      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com> ]
      On Behalf Of Jim Parker
      Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 11:21 PM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2

      You pay your subcontractor exactly what they say you'll pay them or find
      another subcontractor who may be more willing to accept your terms.

      Subcontractors aren't employees; they get to decide what they charge for
      time and expenses. Although you can negotiate, you don't have much of a say
      in the matter.

      Jim

      -----Original Message-----
      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
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      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com> ]
      On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:06 AM
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:infoguys-list%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2

      To all,

      Okay, I have a few replies and they are helpful.

      The second part to the question is this: Let's say that you have
      to bring in a sub-contractor that specializes in a particular type of
      investigation (someone that is not local to you, due to the fact that
      nobody local to you specializes in this particular area of
      investigation), do you pay your sub-contractor the same way you
      expect to be paid? Do you pay for your sub-contractor's flight time
      also?

      Bar the licensing issue stuff.. I can typically get a person
      licensed here where I am at within two weeks.

      Tis a fair question, I think...

      Rick.

      Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
      "He Who Forgets, Will Be Destined To Remember"
      "You'll Find No White Flags Here"

      MAIL BOX: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
      OFFICE ADDRESS: 607 N. Providence, Columbia, MO. 65203

      Phone: (888) 571-0958
      Fax: (877) 795-9800
      Cell: (573) 529-0808

      Email
      RMRI-Inc@... <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>
      <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>
      <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>
      <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>
      <mailto:RMRI-Inc%40mchsi.com>

      Webpage
      http://www.rmriinc.com <http://www.rmriinc.com> <http://www.rmriinc.com
      <http://www.rmriinc.com> > <http://www.rmriinc.com <http://www.rmriinc.com>
      <http://www.rmriinc.com <http://www.rmriinc.com> > >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • suesarkis@aol.com
      In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:55:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, rmriinc@yahoo.com writes: I guess the more specific question here would be, what would you find
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 6, 2007
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        In a message dated 10/6/2007 9:55:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        rmriinc@... writes:

        I guess the more specific question here would be, what would
        you find acceptable to be billed for and what would you not find acceptable
        to be billed for from your sub-contractors?

        Rick.



        Rick -

        The answer is simple - I expect to pay the subcontractor what his hourly
        rates are. You don't ask a professional for a discount although many will
        gladly tell you that they are giving you one if they offer courtesy discounts. If
        the sub's hourly is higher than mine, I explain to the client, "That's life
        in the big city". If the client won't pay the extra, the work doesn't get
        done !!

        Sincerely,
        Sue

        Sue Sarkis
        Sarkis Detective Agency
        (est. 1976)
        1346 Ethel Street
        Glendale, CA 91207
        818-242-2505





        ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


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      • suesarkis@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/6/2007 10:06:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, detect@investigatorsoz.com.au writes: Simply put, if a subby only wants to bill us for his
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 6, 2007
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          In a message dated 10/6/2007 10:06:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
          detect@... writes:

          Simply put, if a subby only wants to bill us for his time on the job and the
          airfare, then that is his business. We may still want to bill the client as
          if we were doing the job.



          I've had both criminal and civil defense clients who did the same thing.
          That's a very slippery slope.

          You might find someday that "sub fees" are considered "outside services"
          which are "out of pocket expenses" and cannot be padded. Do not confuse that
          though with your local operatives. That's a different issue.

          Trust me when I say that I have had quite a few clients who have learned the
          hard way. You might want to consult with an attorney who specializes in
          "contract law".

          Sincerely,
          Sue


          Sue Sarkis
          Sarkis Detective Agency
          (est. 1976)
          1346 Ethel Street
          Glendale, CA 91207
          818-242-2505






          ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • INVESTIGATORS AUSTRALIA
          Sue, In essence, I agree with you. To clarify, if I have an agent who would use the same resources as ours (i.e. same travelling times, same expenses) but
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 7, 2007
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            Sue,

            In essence, I agree with you.

            To clarify, if I have an agent who would use the same resources as ours
            (i.e. same travelling times, same expenses) but charges us a lesser rate
            than our own or not at all for say, waiting at the airport or travelling)
            then we would still charge the client our usual rate. This is our fee to the
            client for completing "X" amount of hours worked as per the client contract.

            We would NOT manufacture extra hours if the agent clearly did NOT work the
            hours- that is a slippery slope.

            Kind Regards,



            David Chambers

            MD



            Investigators (Australia) Pty Ltd.
            387, King William Street,
            Adelaide, SA 5000

            Australia
            Phone: +61 (0)8 8212 4629 or Direct: +61 (0)8 8212 4231
            Mobile: +61 (0) 415 807 484 Fax: +61 (0)8 8211 7861
            Email: detect@...

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            Established 1969
            Investigations, Defence, Tracing, Statements, Process serving, Locus
            reports, Surveillance and Electronic counter-surveillance.

            Members of W.A.P.I. World Association of Professional Investigators.
            Licenced in South Australia.

            We cover Australia and New Zealand and have agents in most other countries
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            This electronic message may contain information which may be privileged or
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            -----Original Message-----
            From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of suesarkis@...
            Sent: 07 October 2007 16:16
            To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Quick Question - Part 2


            In a message dated 10/6/2007 10:06:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
            detect@... writes:

            Simply put, if a subby only wants to bill us for his time on the job and
            the
            airfare, then that is his business. We may still want to bill the client as
            if we were doing the job.



            I've had both criminal and civil defense clients who did the same thing.
            That's a very slippery slope.

            You might find someday that "sub fees" are considered "outside services"
            which are "out of pocket expenses" and cannot be padded. Do not confuse
            that
            though with your local operatives. That's a different issue.

            Trust me when I say that I have had quite a few clients who have learned
            the
            hard way. You might want to consult with an attorney who specializes in
            "contract law".

            Sincerely,
            Sue


            Sue Sarkis
            Sarkis Detective Agency
            (est. 1976)
            1346 Ethel Street
            Glendale, CA 91207
            818-242-2505






            ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Bob Hrodey
            ... There s the Two outta three Rule to consider as well. I alluded to it in my earlier post but in most cases the subcontractor does have the upper hand,
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 7, 2007
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              Jim Parker wrote:
              > And the sub-contractor, as Bob noted, may have no hesitation in telling you
              > "good luck" and hanging up the phone. If you have to go out of your area or
              > perhaps out of state to find someone who can do the work you need done, it
              > tends to indicate there isn't one on every street corner, so your options
              > are limited. Someone who commands a reasonable fee and keeps busy isn't
              > likely to bend to the whims of someone who wants to hire him.
              There's the "Two outta three Rule" to consider as well. I alluded to it in my earlier post but in most cases the subcontractor does have the upper hand, just as we all do when we're negotiating with clients.

              Maybe it's more a principle than a rule but... The rule, simply, is this:

              Price, Quality, Speed. Pick two, because that's all you get!

              If somebody tells you they'll give you all three you're in that "Sounds too good to be true" zone. Run!

              The primary consideration I have when looking for assistance is competency. That said, I then look for someone who can perform in the time frame required. Then comes price.

              I don't expect, nor will I provide service TO, someone who demands competency, drop it right now urgency, AND a low price. Giving up MY "free time" or shuffling client needs to accommodate IS going to cost you. And I expect that when dealing with others.



              Enjoy,

              Bob
              ______________________________________________________________________________

              Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
              Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
              Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
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