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RE: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

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  • i-direct
    Sue Unintended recipient can refer to the fact that an email travels through many servers to reach its intended recipient and can be intercepted and read at
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
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      Sue



      'Unintended recipient' can refer to the fact that an email travels through
      many servers to reach its intended recipient and can be intercepted and read
      at any point along its route unless encrypted.



      It is interesting to note that most UK Solicitors and even the Bar Council
      in the UK advocate the use of such disclaimers. What's good enough for a
      Barrister, is good enough for me.

      One IT Law expert in the UK has written on the subject and starts off by
      saying:

      The value of disclaimers is limited, since the courts normally attach more
      weight to the substantive content of the communication and the circumstances
      in which it is made than to any disclaimer. Having said that, disclaimers
      may possibly be helpful if an issue ends up in court in various respects .
      and, since disclaimers cost (almost) nothing, it is worthwhile to use them.
      Even though their effectiveness in court is doubtful, they may provide a
      useful argument in negotiations to resolve a dispute.

      The comments are based on the position under English law. I email / work
      internationally, so all countries laws may have relevance to me, depending
      on what I am doing and where I am doing it at the time.

      More at http://www.weblaw.co.uk/artemail.php





      Stephen R Peters

      Senior Investigative Consultant
      * Email: <mailto:admin@...> srp@...



      * Office: 0870 990 3211
      * Fax: 0870 990 3212

      * Email: <mailto:admin@...> strand@...

      * Web: <http://www.id-net.co.uk/> www.id-net.co.uk



      MEMBER: BRITISH AGENTS, CPIRC (Canada), LEAA (USA), IWWA

      SIGNATORY: BPPG



      _____

      From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of suesarkis@...
      Sent: 07 September 2007 20:31
      To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS




      This is to everyone. Please get rid of those confidentiality notices as
      there are no such law that prohibit dissemination. For that matter, if I
      wasn't
      the intended recipient, they would not have wound up in my specific mailbox
      since the Internet is not a careless as my USPS carrier. So many people have

      similar warnings and all one can do is wonder.


      Patrick -

      Since you did send us to YOUR blog and you are the author of that wonderful
      presentation, I humbly request a few things.

      For starters, please grant us permission to share with our Reps and Senators

      which would include your signature line.

      Second, please ask everyone on all lists to actually share with the Reps and

      Senators. Also allow us to share with other lists that are independent of
      the other members. We don't want to inundate with repeats.

      Third, ask that they inform you who and when sent so that we (you) can keep
      track so that the rest of us can divvy up the remaining unnoticed Reps and
      Senators.

      We need to make sure they all start reading intelligent statements about the

      harm they are doing to everyone. It is up to us as individuals to save our
      bacon and we cannot rely on associations that represent, in most cases, a
      very small handful of licensees.

      Thank you for your splendid input.



      Sincerely yours,
      Sue
      ________________________
      Sue Sarkis
      Sarkis Detective Agency

      (est. 1976)
      PI 6564_ www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi <http://www.sarkispi.com/>
      .com/)

      1346 Ethel Street
      Glendale, CA 91207-1826
      818-242-2505
      818-242-9824 FAX

      "one Nation under God"

      If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
      a military veteran !

      ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
      at
      http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
      aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Patrick Baird
      Excellent point Sue!! Yes I grant permission to any and all that would like to participate in this discussion and to better inform our local, state, and
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Excellent point Sue!!

        Yes I grant permission to any and all that would like to participate in this discussion and to better inform our local, state, and federal government to use my post on this matter including my signature line. I know this particular issue is dead, however, I am happy to offer my assistance to the industry in any way possible. Thanks again for your comments!!

        Patrick Baird, TPLI

        1st Source / PDJ Investigations - Lic A10979
        Phone: 817-579-0083
        Fax: 817-579-5301
        Cell: 1-866-440-6110
        U.S. & International Skip Tracing & Telephone Investigations



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: i-direct
        To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:35 PM
        Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS


        _____

        From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of suesarkis@...
        Sent: 07 September 2007 20:31
        To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

        This is to everyone. Please get rid of those confidentiality notices as
        there are no such law that prohibit dissemination. For that matter, if I
        wasn't
        the intended recipient, they would not have wound up in my specific mailbox
        since the Internet is not a careless as my USPS carrier. So many people have

        similar warnings and all one can do is wonder.

        Patrick -

        Since you did send us to YOUR blog and you are the author of that wonderful
        presentation, I humbly request a few things.

        For starters, please grant us permission to share with our Reps and Senators

        which would include your signature line.

        Second, please ask everyone on all lists to actually share with the Reps and

        Senators. Also allow us to share with other lists that are independent of
        the other members. We don't want to inundate with repeats.

        Third, ask that they inform you who and when sent so that we (you) can keep
        track so that the rest of us can divvy up the remaining unnoticed Reps and
        Senators.

        We need to make sure they all start reading intelligent statements about the

        harm they are doing to everyone. It is up to us as individuals to save our
        bacon and we cannot rely on associations that represent, in most cases, a
        very small handful of licensees.

        Thank you for your splendid input.

        Sincerely yours,
        Sue
        ________________________
        Sue Sarkis
        Sarkis Detective Agency

        (est. 1976)
        PI 6564_ www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi <http://www.sarkispi.com/>
        .com/)

        1346 Ethel Street
        Glendale, CA 91207-1826
        818-242-2505
        818-242-9824 FAX

        "one Nation under God"

        If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
        a military veteran !

        ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
        at
        http://discover. <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour>
        aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ricky Gurley
        To all, I believe that call records have a place in our industry too. However, I also believe that they are a consumer privacy breach. This is why I am a
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          To all,

          I believe that call records have a place in our industry too. However, I also believe that they are a consumer privacy breach. This is why I am a proponent of having a system in place where the people in the professions that need them and have a legitimate immediate need to obtain them; could have access to them under some type of a permissible purpose clause.

          There is a point that I would like to comment on. With all due respect, I think it is unfair to suggest that it would be appropriate to obtain these records without some type of authorization by saying �this only affects the people that have something to hide�. That has long since been a recognized way of trying to �trick� someone into giving up one or some of their privacy privileges. It�s kind of like asking someone to strip naked, and when they refuse to do so, then saying �Well why not, if you have nothing to hide ?�.

          I think we are better off acknowledging that obtaining consumer call records by someone other than who these records belong to or who has an account that these records go to is in fact a breach of personal privacy, However, I believe the right approach to this issue is that in some cases there is a need to have consumer call records which is greater than and outweighs any consumer privacy concerns.


          Rick.


          Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
          Webpage: http://www.rmriinc.com
          Blog: http://rmriinc.livejournal.com/
          2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
          Phone: (888) 571-0958 Fax: (877) 795-9800 Cell: (573) 529-0808
          Company Email: RMRI-Inc@... Internet Email:
          rmriinc@...
          "He Who Forgets Will Be Destined To Remember"

          RMRI, Inc. Authorized Investigator Portal http://rmri.no-ip.org/mydms



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Patrick Baird <pdjservices@...>
          To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: suesarkis@...
          Sent: Friday, September 7, 2007 8:06:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

          Excellent point Sue!!

          Yes I grant permission to any and all that would like to participate in this discussion and to better inform our local, state, and federal government to use my post on this matter including my signature line. I know this particular issue is dead, however, I am happy to offer my assistance to the industry in any way possible. Thanks again for your comments!!

          Patrick Baird, TPLI

          1st Source / PDJ Investigations - Lic A10979
          Phone: 817-579-0083
          Fax: 817-579-5301
          Cell: 1-866-440-6110
          U.S. & International Skip Tracing & Telephone Investigations

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: i-direct
          To: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:35 PM
          Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

          _____

          From: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com]
          On Behalf Of suesarkis@aol. com
          Sent: 07 September 2007 20:31
          To: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

          This is to everyone. Please get rid of those confidentiality notices as
          there are no such law that prohibit dissemination. For that matter, if I
          wasn't
          the intended recipient, they would not have wound up in my specific mailbox
          since the Internet is not a careless as my USPS carrier. So many people have

          similar warnings and all one can do is wonder.

          Patrick -

          Since you did send us to YOUR blog and you are the author of that wonderful
          presentation, I humbly request a few things.

          For starters, please grant us permission to share with our Reps and Senators

          which would include your signature line.

          Second, please ask everyone on all lists to actually share with the Reps and

          Senators. Also allow us to share with other lists that are independent of
          the other members. We don't want to inundate with repeats.

          Third, ask that they inform you who and when sent so that we (you) can keep
          track so that the rest of us can divvy up the remaining unnoticed Reps and
          Senators.

          We need to make sure they all start reading intelligent statements about the

          harm they are doing to everyone. It is up to us as individuals to save our
          bacon and we cannot rely on associations that represent, in most cases, a
          very small handful of licensees.

          Thank you for your splendid input.

          Sincerely yours,
          Sue
          ____________ _________ ___
          Sue Sarkis
          Sarkis Detective Agency

          (est. 1976)
          PI 6564_ www.sarkispi. com_ (http://www.sarkispi <http://www.sarkispi .com/>
          .com/)

          1346 Ethel Street
          Glendale, CA 91207-1826
          818-242-2505
          818-242-9824 FAX

          "one Nation under God"

          If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
          a military veteran !

          ************ ********* ********* ******** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
          at
          http://discover. <http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour>
          aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ricky Gurley
          That s a fine opinion if you are working any type of an investigation where you can afford to wait for a subpoena. Child Recovery Abduction Cases? Wait for a
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            That's a fine opinion if you are working any type of an investigation where you can afford to wait for a subpoena.


            Child Recovery Abduction Cases? Wait for a subpoena, you say?

            Kidnapping Cases? Wait for subpoena?

            A Runaway Case? Wait for a subpoena?


            I suppose these types of cases would hold for a subpoena, but the victim's in these cases or the perpetrator of these types of crimes might not.........




            Rick.



            Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
            Webpage: http://www.rmriinc.com
            Blog: http://rmriinc.livejournal.com/
            2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
            Phone: (888) 571-0958 Fax: (877) 795-9800 Cell: (573) 529-0808
            Company Email: RMRI-Inc@... Internet Email:
            rmriinc@...
            "He Who Forgets Will Be Destined To Remember"

            RMRI, Inc. Authorized Investigator Portal http://rmri.no-ip.org/mydms



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Bob Hrodey <rth@...>
            To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2007 12:48:17 AM
            Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

            Ricky Gurley wrote:
            > To all,
            >
            > I believe that call records have a place in our industry too. However, I also believe that they are a consumer privacy breach. This is why I am a proponent of having a system in place where the people in the professions that need them and have a legitimate immediate need to obtain them; could have access to them under some type of a permissible purpose clause.

            We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their
            relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It's called a subpoena.

            That's quite loose enough for me, thank you. If you have a legitimate
            need, open the case and get a subpoena. If not, mind your own business,
            not mine!

            --

            Enjoy,

            Bob
            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

            Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
            Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
            Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
            Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
            email: inquiry@hrodey. com or rth@...
            Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bob Hrodey
            ... We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It s called a subpoena. That s
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 7, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Ricky Gurley wrote:
              > To all,
              >
              > I believe that call records have a place in our industry too. However, I also believe that they are a consumer privacy breach. This is why I am a proponent of having a system in place where the people in the professions that need them and have a legitimate immediate need to obtain them; could have access to them under some type of a permissible purpose clause.

              We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their
              relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It's called a subpoena.

              That's quite loose enough for me, thank you. If you have a legitimate
              need, open the case and get a subpoena. If not, mind your own business,
              not mine!


              --

              Enjoy,

              Bob
              ______________________________________________________________________________

              Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
              Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
              Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
              Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
              email: inquiry@... or rth@...
              Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
            • suesarkis@aol.com
              In a message dated 9/7/2007 8:54:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rth@hrodey.com writes: We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 9/7/2007 8:54:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                rth@... writes:

                We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their
                relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It's called a subpoena.

                That's quite loose enough for me, thank you. If you have a legitimate
                need, open the case and get a subpoena. If not, mind your own business,
                not mine!



                Bob -

                I do disagree with you on this one. The police and the municipalities do
                not need SDT's. Why should we for the same case for the same evidence? Why
                should we be forced to show our hand in advance robbing us of ANY opportunity
                for surprise or impeachment? Also, at least here in CA, a consumer notice has
                to be sent to the party prior to sending a subpoena and if they say NO, the
                court might side with them. Many hundreds of thousands of dollars later,
                the Supreme Court after the Appellate Court will send it back and grant the
                SDT.

                Not only is this such an outrageous waste of money, it is also a totally
                unfair disadvantage to our side.


                If you read most State's PUC laws you will see that LEO's do not need
                subpoenas. Disclosure to them is permissible.




                Sincerely yours,
                Sue
                ________________________
                Sue Sarkis
                Sarkis Detective Agency

                (est. 1976)
                PI 6564_ www.sarkispi.com_ (http://www.sarkispi.com/)

                1346 Ethel Street
                Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                818-242-2505
                818-242-9824 FAX

                "one Nation under God"

                If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
                a military veteran !



                ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrick Baird
                The main issue I was trying to point out was the fact that we simply can not stand still and watch all of tools in our arsenal be taken away from big brother,
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  The main issue I was trying to point out was the fact that we simply can not
                  stand still and watch all of tools in our arsenal be taken away from big
                  brother, in doing so government officials (on all levels) are simply helping
                  the criminals and deadbeats. If this cycle continues the whole financial
                  industry will fold because they will enviably ban skiptracing altogether.

                  Sue made some great points and it is up to each and every one of us to get
                  vigilant, involved and ultimately help ourselves, our associations and most
                  importantly the private investigation industry fight to keep the necessary
                  tools we need to make a difference.

                  Great Group!!

                  Patrick Baird, TPLI

                  1st Source / PDJ Investigations - Lic A10979
                  Phone: 817-579-0083
                  Fax: 817-579-5301
                  Cell: 1-866-440-6110
                  U.S. & International Skip Tracing & Telephone Investigations
                  http://www.FindByPhone.com/
                  .
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Ricky Gurley" <rmriinc@...>
                  To: <infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 9:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS


                  To all,

                  I believe that call records have a place in our industry too. However, I
                  also believe that they are a consumer privacy breach. This is why I am a
                  proponent of having a system in place where the people in the professions
                  that need them and have a legitimate immediate need to obtain them; could
                  have access to them under some type of a permissible purpose clause.

                  There is a point that I would like to comment on. With all due respect, I
                  think it is unfair to suggest that it would be appropriate to obtain these
                  records without some type of authorization by saying "this only affects the
                  people that have something to hide". That has long since been a recognized
                  way of trying to "trick" someone into giving up one or some of their privacy
                  privileges. It's kind of like asking someone to strip naked, and when they
                  refuse to do so, then saying "Well why not, if you have nothing to hide ?".

                  I think we are better off acknowledging that obtaining consumer call records
                  by someone other than who these records belong to or who has an account that
                  these records go to is in fact a breach of personal privacy, However, I
                  believe the right approach to this issue is that in some cases there is a
                  need to have consumer call records which is greater than and outweighs any
                  consumer privacy concerns.


                  Rick.


                  Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
                  Webpage: http://www.rmriinc.com
                  Blog: http://rmriinc.livejournal.com/
                  2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
                  Phone: (888) 571-0958 Fax: (877) 795-9800 Cell: (573) 529-0808
                  Company Email: RMRI-Inc@... Internet Email:
                  rmriinc@...
                  "He Who Forgets Will Be Destined To Remember"

                  RMRI, Inc. Authorized Investigator Portal http://rmri.no-ip.org/mydms



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Patrick Baird <pdjservices@...>
                  To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: suesarkis@...
                  Sent: Friday, September 7, 2007 8:06:16 PM
                  Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

                  Excellent point Sue!!

                  Yes I grant permission to any and all that would like to participate in this
                  discussion and to better inform our local, state, and federal government to
                  use my post on this matter including my signature line. I know this
                  particular issue is dead, however, I am happy to offer my assistance to the
                  industry in any way possible. Thanks again for your comments!!

                  Patrick Baird, TPLI

                  1st Source / PDJ Investigations - Lic A10979
                  Phone: 817-579-0083
                  Fax: 817-579-5301
                  Cell: 1-866-440-6110
                  U.S. & International Skip Tracing & Telephone Investigations

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: i-direct
                  To: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 5:35 PM
                  Subject: RE: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

                  _____

                  From: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:infoguys-list@ yahoogroups.
                  com]
                  On Behalf Of suesarkis@aol. com
                  Sent: 07 September 2007 20:31
                  To: infoguys-list@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS

                  This is to everyone. Please get rid of those confidentiality notices as
                  there are no such law that prohibit dissemination. For that matter, if I
                  wasn't
                  the intended recipient, they would not have wound up in my specific mailbox
                  since the Internet is not a careless as my USPS carrier. So many people have

                  similar warnings and all one can do is wonder.

                  Patrick -

                  Since you did send us to YOUR blog and you are the author of that wonderful
                  presentation, I humbly request a few things.

                  For starters, please grant us permission to share with our Reps and Senators

                  which would include your signature line.

                  Second, please ask everyone on all lists to actually share with the Reps and

                  Senators. Also allow us to share with other lists that are independent of
                  the other members. We don't want to inundate with repeats.

                  Third, ask that they inform you who and when sent so that we (you) can keep
                  track so that the rest of us can divvy up the remaining unnoticed Reps and
                  Senators.

                  We need to make sure they all start reading intelligent statements about the

                  harm they are doing to everyone. It is up to us as individuals to save our
                  bacon and we cannot rely on associations that represent, in most cases, a
                  very small handful of licensees.

                  Thank you for your splendid input.

                  Sincerely yours,
                  Sue
                  ____________ _________ ___
                  Sue Sarkis
                  Sarkis Detective Agency

                  (est. 1976)
                  PI 6564_ www.sarkispi. com_ (http://www.sarkispi <http://www.sarkispi .com/>
                  .com/)

                  1346 Ethel Street
                  Glendale, CA 91207-1826
                  818-242-2505
                  818-242-9824 FAX

                  "one Nation under God"

                  If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in English, thank
                  a military veteran !

                  ************ ********* ********* ******** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
                  AOL
                  at
                  http://discover. <http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour>
                  aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • Bob Hrodey
                  ... That makes it seem pretty obvious that the State of CA deems this information to be confidential and worthy of protection. As for wholesale delivery of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    suesarkis@... wrote:
                    >
                    > In a message dated 9/7/2007 8:54:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    > rth@... writes:
                    >
                    > We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their
                    > relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It's called a subpoena.
                    >
                    > That's quite loose enough for me, thank you. If you have a legitimate
                    > need, open the case and get a subpoena. If not, mind your own business,
                    > not mine!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bob -
                    >
                    > I do disagree with you on this one. The police and the municipalities do
                    > not need SDT's. Why should we for the same case for the same evidence? Why
                    > should we be forced to show our hand in advance robbing us of ANY opportunity
                    > for surprise or impeachment? Also, at least here in CA, a consumer notice has
                    > to be sent to the party prior to sending a subpoena and if they say NO, the
                    > court might side with them. Many hundreds of thousands of dollars later,
                    > the Supreme Court after the Appellate Court will send it back and grant the
                    > SDT.

                    That makes it seem pretty obvious that the State of CA deems this
                    information to be confidential and worthy of protection.

                    As for wholesale delivery of these records to LEO's... I'll admit to
                    being a bit behind the curve since I've been out of LE for a number
                    years but last I knew the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986
                    (and as it's been amended) prohibits the release of this information to
                    LE without court order or subpoena. MUD and TOLLS, the call records
                    we're talking about required a subpoena from LE even before ECPA.
                    Suspect that this may have changed with the Patriot Act, etc. but...

                    As for kidnappings and parental abductions? If the family hasn't
                    involved LE, that's their problem and that of the victim.

                    > Not only is this such an outrageous waste of money, it is also a totally
                    > unfair disadvantage to our side.

                    Yes, it is. However, to advocate giving carte blanc access to these
                    records to any private detective is just asking for it. These extreme
                    examples, as cited by Ricky, are the exception, not the rule. The
                    firestorm and subsequent legislation that rained down on us did NOT
                    arise due to some PI getting tolls to solve a kidnapping. It came from
                    some idiots figuring that the end justified the means. Well, I think
                    they found out that it didn't.

                    No offense to anyone reading this (but if the shoe fits) but, quite
                    frankly, we all know of folks who are walking around stating they are
                    PI's and, in the eyes of the law, they are. However, there are a number
                    of those folks that I would not trust to pour water out of a bucket if
                    the instructions were printed on the bottom of the bucket and they were
                    instructed to read the directions first<g> These are the folks who are
                    going to have access to my personal records? Don't think so.



                    --

                    Enjoy,

                    Bob
                    ______________________________________________________________________________

                    Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                    Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                    Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                    Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                    email: inquiry@... or rth@...
                    Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
                  • Ricky Gurley
                    ... these ... extreme ... from ... think ... are ... number ... if ... were ... are ... Let me say this first. Currently; I could care less whether call
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, Bob Hrodey <rth@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Yes, it is. However, to advocate giving carte blanc access to
                      these
                      > records to any private detective is just asking for it. These
                      extreme
                      > examples, as cited by Ricky, are the exception, not the rule. The
                      > firestorm and subsequent legislation that rained down on us did NOT
                      > arise due to some PI getting tolls to solve a kidnapping. It came
                      from
                      > some idiots figuring that the end justified the means. Well, I
                      think
                      > they found out that it didn't.
                      >
                      > No offense to anyone reading this (but if the shoe fits) but, quite
                      > frankly, we all know of folks who are walking around stating they
                      are
                      > PI's and, in the eyes of the law, they are. However, there are a
                      number
                      > of those folks that I would not trust to pour water out of a bucket
                      if
                      > the instructions were printed on the bottom of the bucket and they
                      were
                      > instructed to read the directions first<g> These are the folks who
                      are
                      > going to have access to my personal records? Don't think so.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      >
                      > Enjoy,
                      >
                      > Bob


                      Let me say this first. Currently; I could care less whether call
                      records are outlawed or not. Call records are not how I make a
                      living. I make a fairly good living too, and I have not had a need
                      for call records in quite a while. When they were legal, I
                      occasionally used them. Now that they are not (or even have the
                      slightest possibility of getting me sued), I don't touch them.
                      However, I realize that I am not the only P.I. in the world, and that
                      for some of the other P.I.s in the world, there could be a need. So,
                      I make this post.


                      In my opinion, it is these extreme examples that give way to a need
                      in certain cases for private sector personnel to have access to call
                      records. In a perfect world there could be one entire Police Task
                      Force per criminal, dedicated to bringing that one criminal to
                      justice. But in our imperfect world, the Police are backlogged with
                      cases and short on manpower to meet the demand for combating crime.
                      This is why it is foolish to say "they should have the Police
                      involved" and disregard the private citizen's often enough need to
                      hire someone in the private sector that can dedicate immediate
                      attention to a critical problem. This applies in these "extreme
                      examples" that you quote me on, Bob.

                      Here I am not saying that there is not a privacy issue, what I am
                      saying is that privacy is not always paramount. Call records are in
                      fact a "tool" that has long since been used in our industry with good
                      results, and abused by our industry with the results we are seeing
                      here in this thread. But let me ask you this; how many P.I.s REALLY
                      know how to read a database report? For those that do REALLY know how
                      to read a database report, how are call records any more invasive
                      than a database report? Often times I can determine who someone is
                      banking with from a database report. What kind of vehicle they drive.
                      Who they bought their vehicle from. Who their mother and father are.
                      Sometimes even what their political affiliations are. And sometimes
                      who they associate with. Mind you, some of this is in fact NOT public
                      records. Our "private lives" are already open books for ANYONE to
                      browse if they know how. Just go to: http://www.pipl.com and run a
                      search on someone; you can find tons of personal information on a
                      person there for FREE.

                      The notion that our privacy is sacred has long since been a myth.
                      What is surprising is to see Private Investigators that make a
                      living "snooping" into people private lives appear shocked that this
                      could be happening to them. For a Private Investigator to display
                      such a disdain for what we might consider "breaches of personal
                      privacy" is the perfect illustration of an oxymoron. Not only is this
                      an oxymoron; it raises the "BS Meter" of any intelligent consumer
                      that observes it.

                      Why not just be honest and say; "Yes getting consumer call records is
                      certainly a violation of personal privacy, but "Joe
                      Kidnapper/Rapist's" privacy may not be so important to you when it is
                      your daughter or wife he has kidnapped". I think that the consumer
                      can go with that argument better than any of the others we are
                      offering. I certainly think that argument might give a concerned
                      consumer pause more-so than saying "I snoop into people's lives for a
                      living, and I agree with the concerned consumer", because then the
                      consumer starts to think "this is the guy that is irresponsibly
                      violating people's privacy, he just hasn't been caught yet".

                      I think that some of the problem is that there should be a certain
                      amount of transparency in what we do. I don't think we have to give
                      away "trade secrets" to have that transparency either. If the
                      consumer could see that the P.I. Profession is made up mostly of
                      good, honest, and ethical people, with good intentions; instead of
                      seeing only the "bad press" we get which in reality only illustrates
                      a very minute part of our industry; the consumer would not be so
                      critical of us.


                      Those are just my thoughts.



                      Rick.



                      Risk Management Research & Investments, Inc.
                      "He Who Forgets, Will Be Destined To Remember"

                      MAIL BOX: 2101 W. Broadway PMB 326, Columbia, MO. 65203
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                      Phone: (888) 571-0958
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                      Email
                      RMRI-Inc@...

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                    • Patrick Baird
                      To Everyone: Excellent points from everyone. Maybe, we (private investigators) can collectively come-up with a generalized statement that can be used on our
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 8, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        To Everyone:

                        Excellent points from everyone. Maybe, we (private investigators) can collectively come-up with a generalized statement that can be used on our blogs, emails, websites, etc. that helps educate the uninformed of the serious and sensitive predicament we are all in. These links can direct people to a central website/URL that will inform, offer sample text for emails/letters and more importantly list direct links, addresses and fax numbers to the various government agencies that are investigating and/or making these laws.

                        We can not save call records - but as an industry we can try and help our associations and more importantly ourselves from future government intervention.

                        Just a thought....

                        Patrick Baird, TPLI

                        1st Source / PDJ Investigations - Lic A10979
                        Phone: 817-579-0083
                        Fax: 817-579-5301
                        Cell: 1-866-440-6110
                        U.S. & International Skip Tracing & Telephone Investigations
                        http://www.FindByPhone.com/

                        CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:
                        This e-mail contains confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual named on this transmission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail please destroy this message immediately.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Bob Hrodey
                        To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:06 AM
                        Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] DEATH OF CALL RECORDS IN TEXAS


                        suesarkis@... wrote:
                        >
                        > In a message dated 9/7/2007 8:54:48 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > rth@... writes:
                        >
                        > We already have legal access to them on a case by case basis where their
                        > relevancy and importance can be demonstrated. It's called a subpoena.
                        >
                        > That's quite loose enough for me, thank you. If you have a legitimate
                        > need, open the case and get a subpoena. If not, mind your own business,
                        > not mine!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Bob -
                        >
                        > I do disagree with you on this one. The police and the municipalities do
                        > not need SDT's. Why should we for the same case for the same evidence? Why
                        > should we be forced to show our hand in advance robbing us of ANY opportunity
                        > for surprise or impeachment? Also, at least here in CA, a consumer notice has
                        > to be sent to the party prior to sending a subpoena and if they say NO, the
                        > court might side with them. Many hundreds of thousands of dollars later,
                        > the Supreme Court after the Appellate Court will send it back and grant the
                        > SDT.

                        That makes it seem pretty obvious that the State of CA deems this
                        information to be confidential and worthy of protection.

                        As for wholesale delivery of these records to LEO's... I'll admit to
                        being a bit behind the curve since I've been out of LE for a number
                        years but last I knew the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986
                        (and as it's been amended) prohibits the release of this information to
                        LE without court order or subpoena. MUD and TOLLS, the call records
                        we're talking about required a subpoena from LE even before ECPA.
                        Suspect that this may have changed with the Patriot Act, etc. but...

                        As for kidnappings and parental abductions? If the family hasn't
                        involved LE, that's their problem and that of the victim.

                        > Not only is this such an outrageous waste of money, it is also a totally
                        > unfair disadvantage to our side.

                        Yes, it is. However, to advocate giving carte blanc access to these
                        records to any private detective is just asking for it. These extreme
                        examples, as cited by Ricky, are the exception, not the rule. The
                        firestorm and subsequent legislation that rained down on us did NOT
                        arise due to some PI getting tolls to solve a kidnapping. It came from
                        some idiots figuring that the end justified the means. Well, I think
                        they found out that it didn't.

                        No offense to anyone reading this (but if the shoe fits) but, quite
                        frankly, we all know of folks who are walking around stating they are
                        PI's and, in the eyes of the law, they are. However, there are a number
                        of those folks that I would not trust to pour water out of a bucket if
                        the instructions were printed on the bottom of the bucket and they were
                        instructed to read the directions first<g> These are the folks who are
                        going to have access to my personal records? Don't think so.

                        --

                        Enjoy,

                        Bob
                        __________________________________________________________

                        Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                        Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                        Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                        Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                        email: inquiry@... or rth@...
                        Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063





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