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Re: [infoguys-list] development comments

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  • suesarkis@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/27/2007 9:49:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Jurydoctor@aol.com writes: What if the janitor (who did a lousy job) is the one that gets
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 27, 2007
      In a message dated 8/27/2007 9:49:50 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      Jurydoctor@... writes:

      What if the janitor (who did a lousy job) is the one that gets hurt? Who is
      responsible then?


      The Worker's Comp carrier. No more, no less. That is his job and he knew
      what he was going to do. If he did it incorrectly causing himself harm, I
      think that would be considered something one should hold themselves accountable
      for.

      Sue



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    • Jurydoctor@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/28/2007 5:27:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com writes: What if the janitor (who did a lousy job) is the one that
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
        In a message dated 8/28/2007 5:27:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com writes:

        What if the janitor (who did a lousy job) is the one that gets hurt? Who is
        responsible then?


        The Worker's Comp carrier. No more, no less. That is his job and he knew
        what he was going to do. If he did it incorrectly causing himself harm, I
        think that would be considered something one should hold themselves
        accountable
        for.

        ______________
        How about this analogy (from my daughter)
        A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a day.
        He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless this
        cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi driver
        gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?



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      • karousel
        ... From: Jurydoctor@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients: Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:46 AM Subject: [infoguys-list] development comments ______________
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jurydoctor@...
          To: undisclosed-recipients:
          Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:46 AM
          Subject: [infoguys-list] development comments



          ______________
          How about this analogy (from my daughter)
          A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a day.
          He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless this
          cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi driver
          gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?

          **************************************

          The driver that hit him is at fault.

          wjf
          .


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob Hrodey
          ... What part of WC don t you understand? An employee injured during the course of his employment collects WC and that is it. He cannot sue the employer
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
            Jurydoctor@..., wrote the following at or about 8/28/2007 8:46 AM:
            >
            > In a message dated 8/28/2007 5:27:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
            > infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com writes:
            >
            > What if the janitor (who did a lousy job) is the one that gets hurt? Who is
            > responsible then?
            >
            >
            > The Worker's Comp carrier. No more, no less. That is his job and he knew
            > what he was going to do. If he did it incorrectly causing himself harm, I
            > think that would be considered something one should hold themselves
            > accountable
            > for.
            >
            > ______________
            > How about this analogy (from my daughter)
            > A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a day.
            > He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless this
            > cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi driver
            > gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?
            >
            What part of WC don't you understand? An employee injured during the
            course of his employment collects WC and that is it. He cannot sue the
            employer because of his/her (the employer's omissions, errors, etc.) nor
            can the employer avoid responsibility under the WC laws simply because
            the injury was the result of the employee violating policy or safety rules.

            Example. Anystate has decreed that an employee losing one hand
            (amputation) will be compensated in the amount of $50,000. Joe SixPack
            works on a piece of equipment that the employer KNOWS has defective
            safety interlock equipment. He loses his hand. He gets $50,000
            PERIOD! Betty SixPack, Joe's wife, thinks this is a pretty cool deal
            and has a spare hand. She figures together she and Joe can go to the
            casino with their WC settlement and be set for life. Betty DISCONNECTS
            all the safety equipment on her punch press, slides her hand beneath the
            press and triggers it. Her hand becomes an ashtray. She also gets
            $50,000 and that's it.

            In SOME instances a worker MAY have recourse against a third party -
            typically in construction cases - where there is a duty by a 3rd party
            to provide and maintain a safe work ground but these are very hard to
            prove since the 3rd party also has to take over the direction of the
            injured laborer's job. That doesn't happen very often in the trades.

            --
            Enjoy,

            Bob
            _______________________________________________________________________
            Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
            Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
            Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
            Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
            e-mail: inquiry@... or rth@...
            Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
          • suesarkis@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/28/2007 6:50:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Jurydoctor@aol.com writes: How about this analogy (from my daughter) A taxi driver notices a
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
              In a message dated 8/28/2007 6:50:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              Jurydoctor@... writes:

              How about this analogy (from my daughter)
              A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a
              day.
              He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless this
              cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi driver
              gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?
              * * * * * * *



              Bob -

              Well, for starters, the car that hit him is at fault as they were obviously
              following too close if he couldn't stop.
              Plus, you still have a W/C issue.

              However, whether or not the boss should be held responsible would be
              determined by many factors. How many attempts over how long a period of time? Did
              he bellow 5 times in 15 minutes during fleet change? Did he sit there
              patiently for 6 hours waiting as the employer kept saying he was too busy?

              What exactly was the mechanical problem? Could most taxi drivers fix
              something very simple such as changing an oil filter or was it a loose wire on a
              spark plug? Since the weight of responsibility is usually determined by a
              variety of factors, not knowing those answers doesn't allow for an intelligent
              decision.

              Sue

              * * * * * * *





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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Geron
              The taxi stalls.... And The car that hit him was following too close.... In California that would be comparative negligence. Regards Mike ... Michael Geron,
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
                The taxi stalls....
                And
                The car that hit him was following too close....

                In California that would be comparative negligence.

                Regards
                Mike
                --------------------------------
                Michael Geron, SCLA, CFE, F.IPI
                SGD, Inc.
                Los Angeles, California
                Tel. 818 909-9090, x16
                Fax. 818 909-7365
                mgeron@...

                This email, together with any attachments, is intended for the addressee
                only and may contain information that is confidential and legally
                privileged. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
                sender immediately by email and delete the message from your computer.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bob Hrodey
                ... Oops, tunnel vision on my end... precipitated by Jurydoctor putting the cab owner/employer in the picture which MAY have mistakenly assumed meant that she
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
                  suesarkis@..., wrote the following at or about 8/28/2007 11:01 AM:
                  > In a message dated 8/28/2007 6:50:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                  > Jurydoctor@... writes:
                  >
                  > How about this analogy (from my daughter)
                  > A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a
                  > day.
                  > He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless this
                  > cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi driver
                  > gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?
                  > * * * * * * *
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bob -
                  >
                  > Well, for starters, the car that hit him is at fault as they were obviously
                  > following too close if he couldn't stop.
                  >

                  Oops, tunnel vision on my end... precipitated by Jurydoctor putting the
                  cab owner/employer in the picture which MAY have mistakenly assumed
                  meant that she was looking at his pockets to pick.

                  Of course, the driver would have a possible cause of action against the
                  other driver - over and above the WC. In Illinois, however, and most
                  other states as well I doubt there would be anything other than WC.
                  Let's remove the other driver... The mechanical problem is in the
                  steering linkage. The taxi driver loses control of the vehicle and goes
                  off the road and after traveling 300' through someone's yard, manages to
                  drive through a stockade fence surrounding a swimming pool and winds up
                  swimming with a broken leg.

                  > Plus, you still have a W/C issue.
                  >

                  I think in the revised scenario above, WC is the ONLY issue or avenue
                  available to the driver.

                  > However, whether or not the boss should be held responsible would be
                  > determined by many factors. How many attempts over how long a period of time? Did
                  > he bellow 5 times in 15 minutes during fleet change? Did he sit there
                  > patiently for 6 hours waiting as the employer kept saying he was too busy?
                  >
                  > What exactly was the mechanical problem? Could most taxi drivers fix
                  > something very simple such as changing an oil filter or was it a loose wire on a
                  > spark plug? Since the weight of responsibility is usually determined by a
                  > variety of factors, not knowing those answers doesn't allow for an intelligent
                  > decision.
                  >

                  WC is essentially "no fault" insurance taken to the max. Doesn't matter
                  whose fault it was or is. All that is required is that the injury arise
                  out of the course of employment/scope of employment. In exchange for
                  relieving either party of assessing blame, the damages are limited by
                  statutory considerations (i.e. WC arbitrator's awards)

                  --
                  Enjoy,

                  Bob
                  _______________________________________________________________________
                  Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                  Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                  Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                  Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                  e-mail: inquiry@... or rth@...
                  Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063
                • Michael Geron
                  Let s remove the other driver... The mechanical problem is in the steering linkage. The taxi driver loses control of the vehicle and goes off the road and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
                    "Let's remove the other driver... The mechanical problem is in the
                    steering linkage. The taxi driver loses control of the vehicle and goes
                    off the road and after traveling 300' through someone's yard, manages to
                    drive through a stockade fence surrounding a swimming pool and winds up
                    swimming with a broken leg.
                    I think in the revised scenario above, WC is the ONLY issue or avenue
                    available to the driver."

                    I concur with Bob providing the taxi drivers intention was not to injure
                    himself.

                    Regards,
                    Mike


                    --------------------------------
                    Michael Geron, SCLA, CFE, F.IPI
                    SGD, Inc.
                    Los Angeles, California
                    Tel. 818 909-9090, x16
                    Fax. 818 909-7365
                    mgeron@...

                    This email, together with any attachments, is intended for the addressee
                    only and may contain information that is confidential and legally
                    privileged. If you have received this message in error, please notify the
                    sender immediately by email and delete the message from your computer.

                    _____

                    From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Bob Hrodey
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:33 AM
                    To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [infoguys-list] Well how about this...? WAS development
                    comments



                    suesarkis@aol. <mailto:suesarkis%40aol.com> com, wrote the following at or
                    about 8/28/2007 11:01 AM:
                    > In a message dated 8/28/2007 6:50:35 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                    > Jurydoctor@aol. <mailto:Jurydoctor%40aol.com> com writes:
                    >
                    > How about this analogy (from my daughter)
                    > A taxi driver notices a mechanical problem on the taxi he uses 12 hours a
                    > day.
                    > He makes attempts for the cab owner to fix it. He can not earn $ unless
                    this
                    > cab is operational. He repairs it himself. The taxi stalls, the taxi
                    driver
                    > gets rear ended and is hurt. Who is at fault?
                    > * * * * * * *
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bob -
                    >
                    > Well, for starters, the car that hit him is at fault as they were
                    obviously
                    > following too close if he couldn't stop.
                    >

                    Oops, tunnel vision on my end... precipitated by Jurydoctor putting the
                    cab owner/employer in the picture which MAY have mistakenly assumed
                    meant that she was looking at his pockets to pick.

                    Of course, the driver would have a possible cause of action against the
                    other driver - over and above the WC. In Illinois, however, and most
                    other states as well I doubt there would be anything other than WC.
                    Let's remove the other driver... The mechanical problem is in the
                    steering linkage. The taxi driver loses control of the vehicle and goes
                    off the road and after traveling 300' through someone's yard, manages to
                    drive through a stockade fence surrounding a swimming pool and winds up
                    swimming with a broken leg.

                    > Plus, you still have a W/C issue.
                    >

                    I think in the revised scenario above, WC is the ONLY issue or avenue
                    available to the driver.

                    > However, whether or not the boss should be held responsible would be
                    > determined by many factors. How many attempts over how long a period of
                    time? Did
                    > he bellow 5 times in 15 minutes during fleet change? Did he sit there
                    > patiently for 6 hours waiting as the employer kept saying he was too busy?
                    >
                    > What exactly was the mechanical problem? Could most taxi drivers fix
                    > something very simple such as changing an oil filter or was it a loose
                    wire on a
                    > spark plug? Since the weight of responsibility is usually determined by a
                    > variety of factors, not knowing those answers doesn't allow for an
                    intelligent
                    > decision.
                    >

                    WC is essentially "no fault" insurance taken to the max. Doesn't matter
                    whose fault it was or is. All that is required is that the injury arise
                    out of the course of employment/scope of employment. In exchange for
                    relieving either party of assessing blame, the damages are limited by
                    statutory considerations (i.e. WC arbitrator's awards)

                    --
                    Enjoy,

                    Bob
                    __________________________________________________________
                    Hrodey & Associates Established 1977
                    Post Office Box 366 Member of NALI, ASIS, FBINAA, NAPPS
                    Woodstock, IL 60098-0366 NCISS, Assoc Det of IL & P.A.W.L.I.
                    Licensed in IL & WI (815) 337-4636 Voice 337-4638 Fax
                    e-mail: inquiry@hrodey. <mailto:inquiry%40hrodey.com> com or rth@...
                    <mailto:rth%40hrodey.com>
                    Illinois License 115-000783 Wisconsin 8045-063






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jurydoctor@aol.com
                    The problem that I have with this case is that because the plaintiff took it upon himself to construct the scaffolding himself, and he built it incorrectly,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 28, 2007
                      """The problem that I have with this case is that because the plaintiff took
                      it
                      upon himself to construct the scaffolding himself, and he built it
                      incorrectly, the defendants get off scott free.
                      It does not seem fair that the defendants will be rewarded for not doing
                      their job (providing proper and safe equipment)."""


                      MIKE: Though I am not sure who all the defendants are, I assume they will be
                      at least the carpentry company Vincent worked for, the GC who hired the
                      carpentry company, and the owner who hired the GC, I?do not?have a problem at all
                      with Vincent collecting money for his work related injury.?

                      Normally employee injuries are covered by worker's compensation and the
                      injured employee is entitled to benefits regardless of his culpability.? There are
                      of course?some exceptions such as being under the influence of alcohol?or
                      other dangerous drugs at the time of the injury.??That being stipulated, I think
                      it is the management's responsibility, and I think legal precedence supports me
                      in this view,?to insure a safe workplace, not the employee's.? For instance
                      if a?a wait staff spills a drink and another?staff then slips resulting in
                      injury even though the injured staff knew it was dangerous to walk through spills,
                      the injury would be covered by worker's compensation.? If an electrician on a
                      construction site turned a circuit breaker off to work on a piece of
                      equipment and neglected to lock and tag the breaker and was injured because someone
                      else turned it back on, the electrician would still be entitled to worker's
                      compensation.

                      I worked for a number of years as a construction manager/owner's
                      representative?for a restaurant franchise.? We required the GC to carry worker's
                      compensation insurance and other insurances on all his subcontractors.? It was written
                      so that it was the GC's responsibility.? The usual way it was handled was that
                      as a requirement of employment each subcontractor?submitted proof of various
                      insurances?at the contractually required levels.? If a subcontractor was
                      hiring other contractors to assist him, the subcontractor had to supply to the GC
                      proof of insurance from the new subs.? The purpose, of course, was to avoid
                      this type of suit, or to have insurance companies subrogate it.? BTW the
                      franchise I worked for also carried indemnity insurance in case something slipped
                      through the cracks.?

                      It's unfortunate that Vincent did not have a lawyer before?asserting his
                      responsibility but I do not hold that against him,? any more than I would hold it
                      against a drunk who is assaulted and injured by some lowlife after leaving a
                      bar.? It is management's responsibility to maintain a safe work place.? On
                      construction sites it is the GC's responsibility to?insure that the workplace is
                      being constructed in a safe manner.? that is one of the purposes of having a
                      superintendent on site.
                      ?
                      I suspect if you dig a little deeper you will find that the GC's
                      superintendent?and the carpentry company were in some type of disagreement about who was
                      going to pay for the needed scaffolding which caused the delay.??On projects I
                      oversaw, normally the GC would supply the scaffolding?and have it as a line
                      item in his bid for the project or he would supply the scaffolding and then
                      prorate the charges among the subs who needed to use it, because on?most
                      construction projects quite a few different subs will?use the scaffolding such as
                      masons, carpenters, painters, and roofers to name four off the top of my head.?
                      ?
                      In any case, I would?side with Vincent.

                      __________________________________________





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