## 8660RE: [infoguys-list] Re: NSA Patent 6,947,978.

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• Sep 29, 2005
<<< Packet propogation takes into account the clock skews from the machine
that the packet was sent from. >>>

No, sorry, it doesn't... at least not in this case. Propagation (as I said
earlier) is the length of time it takes a packet to TRAVEL from one point to
another at the speed of light.

The latency is measured from the instant the packet leaves the sending
machine to the instant it arrives at a particular destination on the
network.

Clock Skews occur internally, before the packet leaves the computer, not
after.

In simplistic terms again, suppose a flight leaves Orlando, FL at 16:00, and
arrives in Cleveland, OH at 19:00, then the latency between departure and
arrival is 3 hours (it's a 3 hour flight).

If the plane is delayed before departure (think clock skews), and instead,
doesn't leave until 17:00 hours and arrive at 20:00, it's still a three hour
flight, regardless of what happened before it departed.

<<< he has a PhD. now, his research could very well predate the year of
2000 when the NSA applied for their patent. >>>

No, he's a PhD student - he didn't start his PhD studies until 2001, and by
his own accounts, didn't conduct any significant tests on his clock skew
theories until late 2004.

But even if what you are suggesting were the case, it would still be
irrelevant, as we're still talking about two entirely different processes.
One (NSA) to determine the geographic location of a computer, and the other
(Kohno) to identify a particular computer by its unique characteristics
(clock skews).

Again, let's put it in simple terms that everyone can understand:

You own a 1987 Mercedes, don't you? Suppose we take an identical 1987
Mercedes, exact same color, same interior, same condition, same stereo...
Etc... we remove the license plates and sit them side by side. How do you
positively identify your vehicle over the other one?

Simple: You look at the VIN number, which is unique (just like Kohno's
clock skews are unique to certain computer hardware), so you know which is

However, knowing the unique VIN number does NOT help you determine the
current location of your vehicle at any given time, which is the crux of the
NSA process.

As I said, these are two entirely different processes intended to achieve
two entirely different results.

Jim

=================

JIM PARKER - Chief Investigator
Email Tracing & Internet Fraud Specialist.
Axis Investigative Services, Inc. (FL)
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-----Original Message-----
From: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Ricky Gurley
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:23 PM
To: infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [infoguys-list] Re: NSA Patent 6,947,978.

--- In infoguys-list@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Parker" <Jim@F...> wrote:
> <<< what is one important factor that has to be taken into account
to
> accurately measure network latency? >>>
>
>
> There are several, but to name just a couple:
>
> Propagation (the time it takes for a packet to travel from one point
to
> another at the speed of light).
>
> The conduit used to transport the packet (optical, cable, wireless,
etc.)
> would be a major consideration, as some would cause considerably
more
> latency (delay) than others.
>
> And others.....
>

Accurate measurements of network latency has alot to do with clock skews
from the device the latency is being measured from. Packet propogation takes
into account the clock skews from the machine that the packet was sent from.

Note we are talking about precise readings, not just ping times, which are
measured in milliseconds, still pretty precise but not quite as precise as
nanosecond measurements. And this should be noted because the accuracy of
the geogrpahical location of the machine that the NSA would be tracing would
depend the most accurate measurement of network latency possible.

Clock Skews have more to do with this, than what you would lead the reader
to believe. Which you are right, was the basis of Kohno's paper.

The fact that Khono's paper was published in May of 2005 does not indicate
how new or old his work is, he has a PhD. now, his research could very well
predate the year of 2000 when the NSA applied for their patent. It is not
uncommon for some research projects to take years to complete in college,
especially ones that people work on for their PhD.

All of this is not to say that you are wrong about anything, Jim. Nor is
this to say that Joanne is some great visionary. The point here that is I am
trying to make, and that seems interesting to me, is a speculation of
whether or not it is possible that Kohno could have shared his ideas with
the NSA, or if the NSA could have gotten their idea from Kohno in some
indirect way. or perhaps it is the other way around??? Especially since one
of the major areas of research that Tadayoshi Kohno works in is
cryptography, which is what the NSA is all about. It would not be unheard of
for a student in computer science to work with the NSA in certain areas.
Afterall; Tsutomu Shimomura produced software for the NSA as a student at
University of California at San Diego. I personally find this
interesting....

Rick
>
> Jim
>
> =================
>
> JIM PARKER - Chief Investigator
> Email Tracing & Internet Fraud Specialist.
> Axis Investigative Services, Inc. (FL)
> Tel: 1-866 PI FLORIDA
> Email: Jim@F...
>
> Director / Team Member of MissingKIN
> "Dedicated to finding missing and abducted children"
> Web: http://www.MissingKIN.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
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> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/114 - Release Date: 9/
28/2005

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