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Re: [indie-netgaming] D&D

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  • Mike Holmes
    ... I love Chris Pramas. And if anyone could create a game while working for Wizards and have it be unaffected by their corportate strategy, it would be him
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
      >From: Jonathan Nichol <jnichol@...>

      >I might be unclear on the indie definition but isn't Dragonfist indie? It
      >was designed and is now owned by its creator. Also, I do have the PDFs.

      I love Chris Pramas. And if anyone could create a game while working for
      Wizards and have it be unaffected by their corportate strategy, it would be
      him (it was a great irony watching him accept an Origins Award for his
      revised Chainmail rules just after Wizards dropped the project). But, c'mon.
      He was an employee of Wizards when he made it, and is now a member of Green
      Ronin who are more than just Chris Pramas.

      So I think there's more than a little room for doubt here as to the
      "indie-ness" of the game. And that's without considering that it's D&D for
      chrissake! Next we'll be playing Arcana Unearthed because Monty owns it
      solely.

      Mike
    • Jonathan Nichol
      ... Mike, It s true that it wasn t indie when it was made (since it was owned by WotC) but currently, its sole owner is Chris Pramas who was its sole designer.
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
        On 6/6/05, Mike Holmes <mike_c_holmes@...> wrote:
        > He was an employee of Wizards when he made it, and is now a member of Green
        > Ronin who are more than just Chris Pramas.
        >
        > So I think there's more than a little room for doubt here as to the
        > "indie-ness" of the game. And that's without considering that it's D&D for
        > chrissake! Next we'll be playing Arcana Unearthed because Monty owns it
        > solely.
        >
        > Mike

        Mike,

        It's true that it wasn't indie when it was made (since it was owned by
        WotC) but currently, its sole owner is Chris Pramas who was its sole
        designer. Green Ronin has not published Dragon Fist and if they do so
        it will not be the Dragonfist which was published as PDFs.

        Also, DragonFists's system, while similar to D&D, is not D&D in any
        version of D&D. It is its own system and, at least in my mind, it
        qualifies as indie.
        --
        Jonathan Nichol
        http://www.DeepSheep.com/
      • Fred
        Are we going to start arguing over what makes a game indie? Someone wants to run a game. It s arguably (if not definitely) indie. C mon, Mike.
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
          Are we going to start arguing over what makes a game indie?

          Someone wants to run a game. It's arguably (if not definitely) indie.
          C'mon, Mike.
        • Mike Holmes
          ... I m not sure it is. Rather, if it is indie, then so is 90% of the gaming world. It basically makes the description uselessly broad. We might as well just
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
            >From: Fred <vaxalon@...>

            >It's arguably (if not definitely) indie.

            I'm not sure it is. Rather, if it is indie, then so is 90% of the gaming
            world. It basically makes the description uselessly broad. We might as well
            just be the netgaming group.

            Not that I'm terribly worried about some "infection" or something. I just
            think you have to ask every once in a while. In any case, if we're suddenly
            flooded with D20 play, I'm blaming you, Fred! ;-)

            Mike
          • Mike Holmes
            ... Nor is any D20 game, per se. But how close does a game have to be, how well do we have to know it s pedigree before we admit that we re playing a game
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
              >From: Jonathan Nichol <jnichol@...>

              >Also, DragonFists's system, while similar to D&D, is not D&D in any version
              >of D&D.

              Nor is any D20 game, per se. But how close does a game have to be, how well
              do we have to know it's pedigree before we admit that we're playing a game
              spawned by the same sort of efforts that produce D20 games?

              I suppose that if somehow Gygax got control of D&D again solely in his name
              away from TSR that suddenly that would make D&D an "indie" game? Are these
              PDFs substantively different from the documents produced while he made the
              game for WOTC?

              Mike
            • Jonathan Nichol
              ... My answers to your questions: Yes, I believe if Gygax owned D&D and he did all of the design himself, D&D would be indie. No, the PDFs are the documents
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                On 6/6/05, Mike Holmes <mike_c_holmes@...> wrote:
                > I suppose that if somehow Gygax got control of D&D again solely in his name
                > away from TSR that suddenly that would make D&D an "indie" game? Are these
                > PDFs substantively different from the documents produced while he made the
                > game for WOTC?
                >
                > Mike

                My answers to your questions:

                Yes, I believe if Gygax owned D&D and he did all of the design
                himself, D&D would be indie.

                No, the PDFs are the documents produced when the game was made for WotC.

                This, of course, is using the Forge definition of indie as I
                understand it. Since this group is not affiliated with the Forge, it
                is the group owner's definition of indie which really applies here.
                --
                Jonathan Nichol
                http://www.DeepSheep.com/
              • Fred
                ... Is a D20 game ineligible by definition from being indie ? Ask Clinton about that one.
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                  On 6/6/05, Mike Holmes <mike_c_holmes@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >From: Jonathan Nichol <jnichol@...>
                  >
                  > >Also, DragonFists's system, while similar to D&D, is not D&D in any
                  > version
                  > >of D&D.
                  >
                  > Nor is any D20 game, per se. But how close does a game have to be, how well
                  > do we have to know it's pedigree before we admit that we're playing a game
                  > spawned by the same sort of efforts that produce D20 games?

                  Is a D20 game ineligible by definition from being "indie"?

                  Ask Clinton about that one.
                • Fred
                  ... I ll take all the credit.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
                    On 6/6/05, Mike Holmes <mike_c_holmes@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >From: Fred <vaxalon@...>
                    >
                    > >It's arguably (if not definitely) indie.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure it is. Rather, if it is indie, then so is 90% of the gaming
                    > world. It basically makes the description uselessly broad. We might as well
                    > just be the netgaming group.
                    >
                    > Not that I'm terribly worried about some "infection" or something. I just
                    > think you have to ask every once in a while. In any case, if we're suddenly
                    > flooded with D20 play, I'm blaming you, Fred! ;-)

                    I'll take all the credit.
                  • Nathan E. Banks <Paganini>
                    ... Hash: SHA1 ... Dragon Fist is creator owned. :) - -- Nathan E. Banks Any sane human being, in the absence of serious social conditioning, confronted with a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
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                      Mike Holmes wrote:
                      >>From: "Nathan E. Banks <Paganini>" <paganini@...>

                      >>I was thinking I might run a game for real using the Dragon Fist rules
                      >>based on AD&D 2e.

                      > Someone has to, so I'm doing it. Indie relevance, Nathan?

                      Dragon Fist is creator owned. :)

                      - --
                      Nathan E. Banks

                      Any sane human being, in the absence of serious social conditioning,
                      confronted with a recreational activity, will attempt to enjoy it.

                      - Ben Lehmann

                      http://www.madisontelco.com/~paganini - Home of Cliff Castle Games

                      ICQ 34492883
                      GnuPG Public Key Fingerprint:
                      E63C F562 FDC4 C743 670D ECA5 BC24 C46A EF1E 9E0A
                      - --
                      "Paganini avoids mediocrity in everything."
                      - Niccolo Paganini
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                    • Nathan E. Banks <Paganini>
                      ... Hash: SHA1 ... Mike, this is like old news. We have had this discussion before, and there have been D&D games on the list. Early editions of D&D meet
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 6, 2005
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                        Hash: SHA1

                        Mike Holmes wrote:
                        >>From: Jonathan Nichol <jnichol@...>

                        >>Also, DragonFists's system, while similar to D&D, is not D&D in any version
                        >>of D&D.

                        > Nor is any D20 game, per se. But how close does a game have to be, how well
                        > do we have to know it's pedigree before we admit that we're playing a game
                        > spawned by the same sort of efforts that produce D20 games?

                        > I suppose that if somehow Gygax got control of D&D again solely in his name
                        > away from TSR that suddenly that would make D&D an "indie" game? Are these
                        > PDFs substantively different from the documents produced while he made the
                        > game for WOTC?

                        Mike, this is like old news. We have had this discussion before, and
                        there have been D&D games on the list. Early editions of D&D meet almost
                        any definition of indie that you can throw at them.

                        - --
                        Nathan E. Banks

                        Any sane human being, in the absence of serious social conditioning,
                        confronted with a recreational activity, will attempt to enjoy it.

                        - Ben Lehmann

                        http://www.madisontelco.com/~paganini - Home of Cliff Castle Games

                        ICQ 34492883
                        GnuPG Public Key Fingerprint:
                        E63C F562 FDC4 C743 670D ECA5 BC24 C46A EF1E 9E0A
                        - --
                        "Paganini avoids mediocrity in everything."
                        - Niccolo Paganini
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