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Re: [indie-netgaming] Non-Indie Play

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  • the GreyOrm
    Originally, I was on Nathan s side and didn t see much harm in playing non-Indie games, but Mike made a number of good points and I agree with him on the whole
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 22, 2003
      Originally, I was on Nathan's side and didn't see much harm in playing
      non-Indie games, but Mike made a number of good points and I agree with him
      on the whole regarding what this group's focus is and the need to remain
      distinct in the service we're providing and the activities we're engaged in.

      Now, obviously we can't stop anyone from playing D&D, Vampire, or anything
      else, nor should we...outside this group. That is, if a bunch of us want to
      get together to play a non-indie game, let it be set-up via private e-mail
      among members, not via the list. Why do I think this is the way to go?

      If we are lacksadaisal about it, what's to stop anyone from regularly
      announcing non-Indie games and diluting the group's purpose and focus...Nip
      it in the bud before it is a problem. Harsh? Maybe. Smart? Yes.

      Also, Travis has started a good list of Indie games which should be placed
      in our files section (or somewhere), along with Nathan's definition. The
      list should be updated regularly, as games this list and group is for the
      play of.

      My .02

      - Rev. Ravenscrye Grey Daegmorgan

      ORX are coming...prepare yourself.
      orx.daegmorgan.net
    • Mike Holmes
      I understand the motivations behind wanting to play these other games. And I don t question those. I m not saying that people should *not* play these other
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
        I understand the motivations behind wanting to play these other games. And I
        don't question those. I'm not saying that people should *not* play these
        other games, or that they're bad. The real question is what do we mean when
        we say that this is an "indie" rpg group.

        Paranoia, while certainly groundbreaking, was published by West End Games.
        Same people who held the Star Wars liscence. Costiciyan, while a designer
        that I have the utmost respoect for, has been working for this or that
        company since before there were RPGs (check out all his great SPI designs).
        He's one of the only designers who can really call himself a professional
        designer, in that he has actually recieved paychecks for his work; something
        that only a handful of people can say in this "industry". Not only that, but
        the game was really a collaboration of staff personell. So, if Paranioa can
        be called "indie," then so can every other RPG out there. There is no "less
        corporate" RPG, with the possible exception of D&D. Which is the other game
        being played here right now that I "worry" about.

        So it's not a question of whether or not these games are indie, it's whether
        or not the group is actually about playing indie games.

        I think that the problem stems from the fact that this wasn't really set up
        as an "indie" play group at all, in reality. That is, thinking back to how
        we started the group, we wanted to organize play of RPGs with other people
        from The Forge. The fact that this would support Indie games seemed to be
        tacked on as a "good idea". That is, if we were going to all be from The
        Forge, and likely be playing Indie games anyhow, why not promote the group
        as a playtest-site/proponent of such games?

        But when it comes down to it, it's just about play with this group. But then
        who is this group? Well, at first we were all from The Forge, and mostly we
        still are. But I suspect that there are a few here who haven't even looked
        at The Forge. So that's no longer a key part of the identity, IMO. It's
        gotten really murky, if you ask me. The group definition becomes something
        like:

        "A group of people who started off as Forgites, but now include all sorts of
        people, who, because of the propensities of the original group tend to play
        indie RPGs, but actually play anything when it comes down to it."

        That's just not a coherent vision for a group to follow. What I propose is
        that we discuss what the group is, and what it's goals are. Just so that we
        can get them clear.

        One thing that really kinda irks me is redundancy of mission. That is,
        there's no competition between us and other groups for play, is there? If
        someone came to us from another group, we'd be glad to have them aboard
        right? Well, are we the only group that organizes net play? If we're not a
        specialty, then why don't we just join these other larger groups? The only
        reason to have a group like this, separate from other such groups is if we
        have a particular specialty to promote. Otherwise we should disband and join
        the larger group for the good of all, it seems to me.

        So what specialty do we represent? Well, I see two options. One is that we
        represent Indie games, what the group proports to be about. The second is
        that we're about some sort of "enlightened" form of play that comes from The
        Forge. The problem with this latter version is that it's pretty exclusive. I
        mean, do we exclude people who don't understand Forge theory? No, in fact I
        believe that in actuality we take whoever wants to play. And I think that's
        the best policy. Because I don't think that we should try to keep our play
        closed off, but to display it to the world at large. But if we're not about
        some "forge-style" of play, then what are we about? Well, I'd propose that
        in supporting the sort of games that The Forge creates, we have a unique
        niche with specific value.

        If that's not a valid niche, then I propose that we disband the group and
        all join up with the theoretical "larger" group (does anyone know of such an
        organization, BTW, for debate). Because if we're not a specialty, then we're
        just seculding ourselves from the larger pool of players, which seems
        pointless and elitist.

        OTOH, if this is just a Forge social group, then we can go with that
        direction, but we ought then to do something to promote that. First of all,
        changing the stated mission, and then figuring out how to accomplish that in
        a more directed fashion.

        Really, all I'm saying is that the group has existed long enopugh now that
        it's time to take a look at what it is, and re-algn it's mission statement
        with it's evolution. I hope that this ends up being a productive discussion.

        Mike

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      • JRice
        ... Indie-minded seems to capture what this group is about (on the edge, more creative, willing to experiment... who cares if we fall back to mainstream now
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
          >Because if we're not a specialty, then we're
          >just seculding ourselves from the larger pool of players, which seems
          >pointless and elitist.

          "Indie-minded" seems to capture what this group is about (on the edge,
          more creative, willing to experiment... who cares if we fall back to
          mainstream now and again to get some momentum going and generate
          ideas?), and is neither pointless nor elitist, though I suppose it's a
          valid point to have brought up.
        • panda_alchemist
          ... other game ... Just wanted to comment on this real quick. The only D&D game that s been mentioned on here was Nate s boxed set adventure for 3E. A couple
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
            >There is no "less
            > corporate" RPG, with the possible exception of D&D. Which is the
            other game
            > being played here right now that I "worry" about.
            >

            Just wanted to comment on this real quick.

            The only D&D game that's been mentioned on here was Nate's boxed set
            adventure for 3E. A couple sessions of that were played pretty
            spontaneously just for the heck of it. We did a pick-up game of the
            red boxed adventure set (from the original edition), too, but that
            was never mentioned on the list, and no other games were happening at
            the time.

            And I'm going to be running a 3E game for a few of the people I've
            met via the channel, but I've consciously chosen -not- to post about
            it to the list, and unless it's just us in the channel, won't be
            using _ooc or _nar, -precisely- for the reasons you've outlined.

            So, just wanted to insert that bit of factoid. A couple of boxed set
            adventures happened on a lark (only one of which made any mention on
            the list), and that's about it. There's no D&D monster trying to take
            over the list. ;)

            --michael
          • Christopher Weeks
            I ll begin with the caveat that I ve only been here for about a month and only actually met and played with some of you once. But I like this resource just
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
              I'll begin with the caveat that I've only been here for about a month
              and only actually met and played with some of you once. But I like this
              resource just like The Forge.

              I think that what does and should segregate this group from the rest of
              the online gaming community is the style focus. I don't think that if I
              started a D&D game tomorrow it would be the same as if I'd started it
              six months earlier. Sorcerer and Universalis and GNS and lots of other
              Forge reading have changed me. Even if I never played an indie game,
              I'm a different gamer (thank god...this is what I was questing for!).

              I don't think it's excusionary to form a subculture based on prefered
              differences. And it's super that this group isn't exclusionary. But if
              it disappeared and we all went back into the mainstream online gaming
              culture, we might have a hard time forming influence blocks enough to
              change the way we (and others, because of the others) do the gaming.

              > OTOH, if this is just a Forge social group, then we can go with that
              > direction, but we ought then to do something to promote that. First
              > of all, changing the stated mission, and then figuring out how to
              > accomplish that in a more directed fashion.

              So what do you propose?

              Chris
            • Robert McNamee
              Hmm, I hadn t really ever thought about the indie part of the indie netgaming group much. As much as a Paranoia game (or any other mainstream game) would be
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                Hmm, I hadn't really ever thought about the indie part of the indie netgaming group much.
                 
                As much as a Paranoia game (or any other 'mainstream' game) would be fun, I think Mike's right. It really doesn't fit what the Group was formed to do...which as I recall was to play, and often playtest, the many new indie games that had been presented at the time. As I recall there were a bunch that were not getting a lot of attention at that time, like Otherkind, and Orx.
                 
                 Now I know that I haven't been paying as much attention to the new game designs presented on the Forge, except for Doomchaser, Fastlane, MLwM, and awaiting Blackwing (somewhere in the future). Surely there must be many interesting games to try out... or even revisit (such as the non-anthro-TQB)... before we go on to D&D etc that I just haven't noticed on the Forge.
                 
                There surely are other areas on the web to sign up a game of something standard, even a private mailing. How many other places are going to run a rousing game of Inspectres or Universalis?
                 
                My two cents is to keep this an indie game group, perhaps fairly flexible on what an indie is... and perhaps a sufficently drifted form of mainstream game could qualify, but I'd rather see indie games be dusted off, or dug out of the threads and tried, heck we tried vincents Noche de los Vampiros, when the ink was barely dry (well pixels anyway).
                 
                Bob McNamee

                Christopher Weeks <clweeks@...> wrote:
                I'll begin with the caveat that I've only been here for about a month
                and only actually met and played with some of you once. But I like this
                resource just like The Forge.

                I think that what does and should segregate this group from the rest of
                the online gaming community is the style focus. I don't think that if I
                started a D&D game tomorrow it would be the same as if I'd started it
                six months earlier. Sorcerer and Universalis and GNS and lots of other
                Forge reading have changed me. Even if I never played an indie game,
                I'm a different gamer (thank god...this is what I was questing for!).

                I don't think it's excusionary to form a subculture based on prefered
                differences. And it's super that this group isn't exclusionary. But if
                it disappeared and we all went back into the mainstream online gaming
                culture, we might have a hard time forming influence blocks enough to
                change the way we (and others, because of the others) do the gaming.

                > OTOH, if this is just a Forge social group, then we can go with that
                > direction, but we ought then to do something to promote that. First
                > of all, changing the stated mission, and then figuring out how to
                > accomplish that in a more directed fashion.

                So what do you propose?

                Chris



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              • dariuswolfe@cox.net
                This is a good point, and for the most part, I agree with Mike. This group was originally started up as an effort to play the many cool games, and playtest the
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                  Hmm, I hadn't really ever thought about the indie part of the indie netgaming group much.
                   
                  As much as a Paranoia game (or any other 'mainstream' game) would be fun, I think Mike's right. It really doesn't fit what the Group was formed to do...which as I recall was to play, and often playtest, the many new indie games that had been presented at the time. As I recall there were a bunch that were not getting a lot of attention at that time, like Otherkind, and Orx.
                   
                   Now I know that I haven't been paying as much attention to the new game designs presented on the Forge, except for Doomchaser, Fastlane, MLwM, and awaiting Blackwing (somewhere in the future). Surely there must be many interesting games to try out... or even revisit (such as the non-anthro-TQB)... before we go on to D&D etc that I just haven't noticed on the Forge.
                   
                  There surely are other areas on the web to sign up a game of something standard, even a private mailing. How many other places are going to run a rousing game of Inspectres or Universalis?
                   
                  My two cents is to keep this an indie game group, perhaps fairly flexible on what an indie is... and perhaps a sufficently drifted form of mainstream game could qualify, but I'd rather see indie games be dusted off, or dug out of the threads and tried, heck we tried vincents Noche de los Vampiros, when the ink was barely dry (well pixels anyway).
                   
                  Bob McNamee

                  Christopher Weeks <clweeks@...> wrote:
                  I'll begin with the caveat that I've only been here for about a month
                  and only actually met and played with some of you once. But I like this
                  resource just like The Forge.

                  I think that what does and should segregate this group from the rest of
                  the online gaming community is the style focus. I don't think that if I
                  started a D&D game tomorrow it would be the same as if I'd started it
                  six months earlier. Sorcerer and Universalis and GNS and lots of other
                  Forge reading have changed me. Even if I never played an indie game,
                  I'm a different gamer (thank god...this is what I was questing for!).

                  I don't think it's excusionary to form a subculture based on prefered
                  differences. And it's super that this group isn't exclusionary. But if
                  it disappeared and we all went back into the mainstream online gaming
                  culture, we might have a hard time forming influence blocks enough to
                  change the way we (and others, because of the others) do the gaming.

                  > OTOH, if this is just a Forge social group, then we can go with that
                  > direction, but we ought then to do something to promote that. First
                  > of all, changing the stated mission, and then figuring out how to
                  > accomplish that in a more directed fashion.

                  So what do you propose?

                  Chris



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                • Nathan E Banks
                  ... Hash: SHA1 First of all, thanks to Mike for kicking of this discussion. The group has been around long enough, and is accumulating enough members, that
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
                    Hash: SHA1

                    First of all, thanks to Mike for kicking of this discussion. The
                    group
                    has been around long enough, and is accumulating enough members, that
                    another "identity crisis" (as I like to call them) was due to be
                    scheduled.

                    So, here's the official word.

                    This is an indie-gaming group, period. Back when we first started,
                    there were some Forge discussions about how indie games weren't
                    getting played enough. We started this group as a positive action -
                    instead of sitting around whining, we decided to actually do
                    something
                    that would generate play.

                    But even more than indie, this group is about Actual Play. It's
                    natural that a bunch of regular gamers are going to eventually want
                    to
                    play something that happens to not be indie. I'm not gonna squash
                    actual play of any game, just because we have the word "indie" in our
                    name.

                    The caveat is, of course, indie gaming always takes priority. If
                    Mouse
                    wants to run a 3e game with guys from the list, geez, that's cool.
                    Heck I'm *in* that game. He's not even planning on using the regular
                    game channels. But if someone's Vampire game in the main room is
                    keeping someone else from playing Hungry, Desperate, and Alone, then
                    that's not cool.

                    So, to put it another way, we focus on indie-games, but we are not
                    exclusive. We saw a lack of actual play of indie games. We came here
                    to address that need - not to never play anything else.

                    Now, Paranoia specifically. Regardless of Costikyan's background, the
                    publisher of Paranoia, etc. etc., as far as I know, the game's
                    current
                    only incarnation is a fan-maintained web-site. That's indie enough
                    for
                    me. The definition of indie I go by here is not the same as on the
                    Forge. (I already gave a couple of people the go ahead to run
                    Nobilis,
                    for example.) An indie game is one that's not published, marketed, or
                    supported by a major company. D&D3e is not indie. Vampire is not
                    indie. Shadowrun is not indie. GURPS is not indie. T&T is indie.
                    Paranoia is indie. Cartoon Action Hour and Heart Quest are still
                    indie.

                    And if there's some kind of grey area to debate, it's pretty simple.
                    If people want to play it, let them.

                    - --
                    Nathan E. Banks

                    "My friend saw what I writing and says what is "doo-too". So I
                    punch him in teh neck and take his wallet and keys, drive his
                    car to dave and busters and spen all his money on booze and
                    house of dead 3. That's what "doo-too" is, fool. I kill him and
                    take his stuff."

                    - Colin the Riot

                    http://paganini.knightswood.net - Home of Cliff Castle Games

                    ICQ 34492883
                    PGP Public Key Fingerprint:
                    850A 55AB 1963 7C0E 534A B39E 69D2 9E1D 8483 7773

                    - --
                    "Paganini avoids mediocrity in everything."
                    - Niccolo Paganini

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                  • Travis Casey
                    ... [snipping lots] ... Just to chime in... I like this definition... not least because I m also interested in historical gaming ... examining and playing
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                      On Monday 27 October 2003 22:03, Nathan E Banks wrote:

                      > First of all, thanks to Mike for kicking of this discussion. The
                      > group
                      > has been around long enough, and is accumulating enough members, that
                      > another "identity crisis" (as I like to call them) was due to be
                      > scheduled.

                      [snipping lots]

                      > So, here's the official word.

                      > The definition of indie I go by here is not the same as on the
                      > Forge. (I already gave a couple of people the go ahead to run
                      > Nobilis,
                      > for example.) An indie game is one that's not published, marketed, or
                      > supported by a major company. D&D3e is not indie. Vampire is not
                      > indie. Shadowrun is not indie. GURPS is not indie. T&T is indie.
                      > Paranoia is indie. Cartoon Action Hour and Heart Quest are still
                      > indie.

                      Just to chime in... I like this definition... not least because I'm also
                      interested in "historical gaming"... examining and playing "abandoned" RPGs
                      that might have interesting ideas/bits.

                      So... some stuff that I'd like to play, given a chance, that I don't think
                      has been played yet:

                      CORPS
                      Epiphany
                      Amber
                      Lace & Steel
                      Pendragon
                      Orkworld
                      The Dying Earth
                      Scared Stiff
                      Hungry, Desperate, and Alone
                      Everway
                      Lands of Adventure
                      Chill (first edition)
                      Swashbuckler
                      Santa's Soldiers

                      Anyone else want to toss out a "wishlist" of stuff that hasn't been played?

                      --
                      |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@...>
                      ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
                      |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
                      '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
                    • JRice
                      ... I m always willing to run an Amber game. If there are others interested...
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                        >So... some stuff that I'd like to play, given a chance, that I don't think
                        >has been played yet:
                        >
                        >Amber

                        I'm always willing to run an Amber game. If there are others
                        interested...
                      • Chris Edwards
                        Just a few points: -There are 184 members and out of that about a dozen organize play through this group with any regularity, with perhaps at best another
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 27, 2003
                          Just a few points:

                          -There are 184 members and out of that about a dozen organize play
                          through this group with any regularity, with perhaps at best another
                          dozen that play very irregularly. Quite frankly, when it comes to
                          the number of people actually playing the group hasn't grown much.
                          Some of the names seen regularly have changed, giving the perception
                          of growth.

                          -This group really isn't a democracy as such. Nathan has the power
                          to give permission to post and the power to take that permission
                          away, so the message board being overrun with postings for non-indie
                          games is not a concern.

                          -Keeping abreast of the role-playing industry as a whole and the
                          more standard fare that industry has to offer is a GOOD thing.
                          Personally, I discovered that after a steady diet of indie-rpgs I
                          could now enjoy those OTHER games, such as DnD, for what they are
                          instead of for what I want them to be.


                          -Chris
                        • Mike Holmes
                          ... Well, I m not sure that this is the direction that we want to go. I d leave the particulars up to those who felt this was a good idea, should consensus
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 28, 2003
                            >From: Christopher Weeks <clweeks@...>

                            > > OTOH, if this is just a Forge social group, then we can go with that
                            > > direction, but we ought then to do something to promote that. First
                            > > of all, changing the stated mission, and then figuring out how to
                            > > accomplish that in a more directed fashion.
                            >
                            >So what do you propose?

                            Well, I'm not sure that this is the direction that we want to go. I'd leave
                            the particulars up to those who felt this was a good idea, should consensus
                            indicate that this is what we want to do. But, as examples, there could be
                            social events. If it's about style of play, then there could be "clinics". I
                            could see even organizing a convention potentially. Lots of possibilities.
                            But, again, that's all predicated on a specific idea of what the group is. I
                            think it's more important to decide what the group is first before going off
                            and figuring out how to acheive the many potential goals.

                            Mike

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                          • Mike Holmes
                            ... I m not sure we need a list. I think awareness should suffice. That is, somebody made an argument in the IRC room that Paranioa was, in fact, now indie. As
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 28, 2003
                              >From: "the GreyOrm" <greyorm@...>
                              >
                              >Also, Travis has started a good list of Indie games which should be placed
                              >in our files section (or somewhere), along with Nathan's definition. The
                              >list should be updated regularly, as games this list and group is for the
                              >play of.

                              I'm not sure we need a list. I think awareness should suffice. That is,
                              somebody made an argument in the IRC room that Paranioa was, in fact, now
                              indie. As long as people are thinking about it, and acting conscienciously
                              regarding that criteria, I think we can trust to the membership to monitor
                              themselves. The definition of "indie" can remain somewhat vague, therefore,
                              IMO.

                              Mike

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                            • Alexander Cherry
                              (I m at work, and busy, so forgive me if this doesn t come out exactly as I intended it) 1. No matter what else is the case, I don t think disbanding the
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 28, 2003
                                (I'm at work, and busy, so forgive me if this doesn't come out
                                exactly as I intended it)

                                1. No matter what else is the case, I don't think disbanding the
                                group is a positive solution. This is a useful and useable group for
                                me, and for a lot of us. I believe, though, that like The Forge is
                                mainly about indie games, yet still allows Actual Play threads about
                                games like D&D (the horror!), as long as this group keeps its focus
                                on indie games, the occasional non-indie game shouldn't be a
                                problem. Nate even says this in his post. Enjoying non-indie
                                (undie) games isn't a bad goal, but this isn't undie-netgaming, so
                                I'm glad to see steps taken to ensure this group remains indie-
                                focused.

                                2. In addition to D&D and Paranoia, there's also been repeated
                                mention of a Nobilis game on this list. Now Nobilis has been bounced
                                around to three different companies, so far, and I'm sure that
                                according to any "official" definition, is not an indie game. Yet
                                through Nate's semi-vague definition, it is (well, maybe, Guardians
                                of Order is sort of a major company), and I'm happy with that. The
                                definition is just vague enough to be useful.

                                3. Trevis's list is interesting, and I agree that Abandonware rpgs
                                (such as Everway) could be just as interesting as other sorts of
                                play. And I also agree with Bob, in that we should pull some old
                                games out to play again, and/or grab one of the many games that're
                                being posted in the forge's IGD forum right now (or elsewhere on the
                                net - rpg.net's Art of Game Design comes to mind). Finally, I'm glad
                                that "monday night indie" is at least seeming to start up again, and
                                I agree that if nothing else, monday should/could be reserved for
                                indie play.

                                A partial wishlist of mine:

                                * Hungry, Naked, Alone
                                * Clockworx
                                * Everway
                                * Nobilis
                                * Dying Earth
                                * Orkworld
                                * Burning Wheel
                                * Torchbearer
                                * Otherkind
                                * The Reverse RPG
                                * MlwM (I didn't manage to get into the game being run now)
                                * Continuum (but this is one of those "damn, you need the book"
                                games, for me)
                                * Amber (though it's very LOW on my wishlist, especially if it gets
                                houseruled)
                                * Some more QuIRC play (yeah, yeah, I'm a shill)
                                * Any Other Game I, Lxndr, Might Design In The Future (And Yes,
                                Several Are In The Pipeline)

                                4. The group might not have grown much, Chris, but it has grown.
                                The activity in the IRC room has, quite honestly, climbed. I never
                                used to see 12 people in the channel on mondays, and now I do. I
                                know this is a peak/valley sort of thing, and I haven't been around
                                long enough to really see a full cycle, but I do believe that the
                                group has blossomed, at least somewhat. Nonetheless, you're right in
                                that very few of us actually /organize/ play. And some of them are
                                very much non-forgeites (some might remember how much it took to
                                convince me to sign on to the Forge). I'm not sure if it's a "forge
                                social group" though.
                              • Nathan E Banks
                                ... Hash: SHA1 Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 9:04:34 AM, Mike wrote: MH I m not sure we need a list. I think awareness should suffice. That is, MH somebody made
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 28, 2003
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                                  Tuesday, October 28, 2003, 9:04:34 AM, Mike wrote:

                                  MH> I'm not sure we need a list. I think awareness should suffice.
                                  That is,
                                  MH> somebody made an argument in the IRC room that Paranioa was, in
                                  fact, now
                                  MH> indie. As long as people are thinking about it, and acting
                                  conscienciously
                                  MH> regarding that criteria, I think we can trust to the membership
                                  to monitor
                                  MH> themselves. The definition of "indie" can remain somewhat vague,
                                  therefore,
                                  MH> IMO.

                                  Mike, exactly! 100% agreement.


                                  - --
                                  Nathan E. Banks

                                  "My friend saw what I writing and says what is "doo-too". So I
                                  punch him in teh neck and take his wallet and keys, drive his
                                  car to dave and busters and spen all his money on booze and
                                  house of dead 3. That's what "doo-too" is, fool. I kill him and
                                  take his stuff."

                                  - Colin the Riot

                                  http://paganini.knightswood.net - Home of Cliff Castle Games

                                  ICQ 34492883
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                                  - --
                                  "Paganini avoids mediocrity in everything."
                                  - Niccolo Paganini

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