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Engine RPM

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  • Sameer Uppal
    Hi, I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any gear; while
    Message 1 of 29 , Mar 1, 2007
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      Hi,

      I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether it is a recommended driving practise.

      Thanks in advance.

      Regards,

      Sameer

      Indica GLX, Dec'06, 2000 KM, 11-12 KM Mileage with 100% AC



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    • DEEPAK UMRANKAR
      Hi Sameer, ... While going uphill you should try to shift the gears at peak torque rpm (or slightly above it) if at all necessary. Now the peak torque for the
      Message 2 of 29 , Mar 1, 2007
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        Hi Sameer,

        > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/
        > optimum and peak rpm for each gear. Normally, i
        > never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
        > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond
        > 2000 rpm, I upshift (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to
        > achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether it is a
        > recommended driving practise.

        While going uphill you should try to shift the gears
        at peak torque rpm (or slightly above it) if at all
        necessary. Now the peak torque for the petrol variant,
        I believe is 2600 rpm & for the diesel variant is 2500
        rpm. If you are upshifting at 2000 rpm (from 2nd to
        3rd gear), you are straining the engine. It is
        advisable not to upshift gears while ascending. Try to
        be in one gear (2nd or 3rd) at the peak torque rpm,
        until you completely finish the gradient. This will
        help you pull a fully loaded vehicle quite
        comfortably.

        The new generation cars (especially the common rail
        diesels) have a broad rpm range for maximum torque (eg
        1800 rpm to 3000 rpm). Due to the pulling power spread
        out over a braod rpm range you can manage to shift
        gears in these even while ascending, without much of a
        problem.

        Hope I am able to answer you query. Experts pl correct
        me if I am worng.

        Rgds
        Deepak

        Drive Safe

        DLX/MH14 AE4304/July'04/35,700km/18.22kmpl(last tank full)
        (idle from 11th Feb to 17th Mar)
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/files/Indica_DLX_Fuel_log_Deepak.xls



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      • RK
        Hi Ravi, Nice to see you back and of course with questions. Thats good. Please read on... ... It depends upon you of course. You can use any of the braking
        Message 3 of 29 , Mar 1, 2007
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          Hi Ravi,

          Nice to see you back and of course with questions. Thats good.

          Please read on...

          oldman_driving wrote:
          > Well, what you explain is exactly what i have been trying out. But RK
          > obviously is talking something else: he is asking to use the hand
          > brake. Yours and RK's are two DIFFERENT methods - without and with
          > handbrake. Which one is more correct???
          >
          It depends upon you of course. You can use any of the braking methods.
          Please recollect you are on a slope, so in order to avoid reverse
          movement you need to apply brake, any braking would do. :) I am used to
          using handbrake on slope and hence thats why I mentioned it here. Things
          will change at ground, since there is no reverse motion, hence there is
          no need for braking.

          I hope I made myself clear.

          Thanks
          ~RK
        • RK
          Hi Sameer, Please read on... ... As mentioned in earlier mail, one can use anything, handbrake or foot brake. Regarding steep slope, I can understand your
          Message 4 of 29 , Mar 1, 2007
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            Hi Sameer,

            Please read on...

            Sameer Uppal wrote:
            > Hi RK,
            > while manoevouring an extremely steep ascent; I could accomplish it only
            > the 2nd or 3rd time and had to use the throttle as well ( contrary to
            > your advise and observed the engine rpm had increased to above 3000).
            > Please advise how to manoevoure steep ascents with handbrake and clutch
            > only without resorting to throttle. As regards non-steep lopes I was
            > able to manoevoure using the clutch and foot brake (I did not have to
            > use the handbrake). Is this the right way?

            As mentioned in earlier mail, one can use anything, handbrake or foot brake.

            Regarding steep slope, I can understand your problem, at such times,
            again, I will repeat the same thing (believe me it works, it just needs
            practice), however if you are in a hurry you can rev just a lil bit but
            below 2k rpm. I am sure that much is sufficient enough to pull the car,
            once you have momentum completely release the clutch. But try to avoid
            clutch + acceleration. At such times, its really test of the car's
            engine and not your driving skill. I remember one ad of Toyota, where in
            a car could climb easily in first and reverse gear on a See-Saw of about
            20 meter slope at 45 deg. Also I would like to add, Indica is not an
            SUV, its not meant for extreme steep climb that it can't cover in first
            gear, remember it's not 4x4 drive.

            ~RK
          • RK
            Sameer, Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query, please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible, please
            Message 5 of 29 , Mar 1, 2007
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              Sameer,

              Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query,
              please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
              please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
              http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar

              Thanks
              ~RK
              Sameer Uppal wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for
              > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
              > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift
              > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether
              > it is a recommended driving practise.
              >
              > Thanks in advance.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Sameer
              >
            • manojtv
              Hi, ... http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/message/9278 http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/message/10775 Hope it helps. Thanks,
              Message 6 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                Hi,

                > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum
                > and peak rpm for each gear.

                http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/message/9278
                http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/message/10775

                Hope it helps.

                Thanks,
                --Manoj, Trivandrum, Kerala.
                (V2 DLX, Feb. 2003, 93700kms, 17.37kmpl, Maint.exp 58ps/km, 63km/day)
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/files/IndicaLog-KL-16-3095.xls
              • Sameer Uppal
                Hi All (esp Hrishi) PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the
                Message 7 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                  Hi All (esp Hrishi)

                  PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the relevant post referred to by RK.

                  Thanks in advance.

                  Regards,

                  Sameer

                  RK <x.techie@...> wrote:
                  Sameer,

                  Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query,
                  please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                  please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                  http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar

                  Thanks
                  ~RK
                  Sameer Uppal wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for
                  > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
                  > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift
                  > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether
                  > it is a recommended driving practise.
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Sameer
                  >



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                • Dev Abhishek
                  Hello Shukla-Ji, Both methods are fine - using heel-toe on extreme gradients does need more skill. In my experience, using the hand-brake frequently slackens
                  Message 8 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                    Hello Shukla-Ji,

                    Both methods are fine - using "heel-toe" on extreme gradients does need more skill. In my experience, using the hand-brake frequently slackens it (I gues in your case you will need to use it very frequently). These does, service interval can be 10,000 kms apart - hence, the hand-brake can develop considerable slack in this time (it's spring loaded, manually actuated, unlike the foot-brakes, which are pneumatically actuated.) Of course, you can also learn to adjust the brakes yourself.

                    Develop both skills, you never know which you'll need. Your Petrol car may not have enough torque at Idling to start off on steep slopes - you may need to use the accelerator depending on load and degree of gradient.

                    Obviously, the local mechanic exposed the wiring harness at some point, causing a short to ground or something like that. Try and have the reverse horn installed at a TASC. However, please be advised that all reverse horns and musical horns are illegal.

                    Best,
                    Dev



                    oldman_driving <oldman_driving@...> wrote:
                    Hello Dev,
                    Mine is a xeta glg, a 1.4 petrol.
                    Well, what you explain is exactly what i have been trying out. But RK
                    obviously is talking something else: he is asking to use the hand
                    brake. Yours and RK's are two DIFFERENT methods - without and with
                    handbrake. Which one is more correct???

                    If you are out there, RK, we need your comment on Dev's method.

                    Thanks all the same for this and other tips, Dev. With all you guys
                    around, it's going to be a great learning experience for me.

                    Here is another query: the manual says about provision for reversing
                    horn. Where is that? My local mechanic fixed the horn just under the
                    rear bonnet, but everytime the car is washed something goes wrong
                    with the horn. A few days back it just stopped functioning after
                    giving some strange squeaking sound.
                    HP Shukla
                    --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Shukla-ji,
                    >
                    > Welcome to the group. I guess you are the first member from
                    Uttaranchal. (My apologies if I've missed someone).
                    >
                    > RK has pretty much outlined what needs to be done - you don't say
                    if you have a diesel or a petrol model. Diesels will typically start
                    on most reasonable slopes without too much trouble. Petrols are a
                    slightly different story.
                    >
                    > All of us have gone through the process of learning to use the
                    clutch initially, don't be embarrassed if you do end up stalling the
                    vehicle a few time. It's a 3 part process, if you aren't using hand-
                    brake;
                    >
                    > 1) With the foot-brake applied, release the clutch to a point. The
                    car leans forward, and you'd notice that engine rpm has dipped
                    slightly. the point is to release the clutch to the point where the
                    engine won't stall, and the car leans forward.
                    > 2) In all but exceptional slopes, the car won't move back beyond
                    this point. Release the clutch and brake simultaneously to ensure a
                    lurch free roll-off.
                    > 3) Accelerate smoothly and shift when appropriate
                    >
                    > Additional precautions while driving on ghats;
                    > 1) Do not coast the car
                    > 2) Go down in the same gear as you'd need to climb the slope (try
                    to minimise reliance on brakes to control speed while going down-hill)
                    > 3) Anticipate the gear required and shift *before* you enter a
                    gradient. If you do that after getting into the gradient, the car may
                    roll back when you use the clutch.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Dev
                    > oldman_driving <oldman_driving@...>
                    wrote: Hello RK,
                    > I am H P Shukla (call me Hari or Shukla)
                    > Thanks a lot, man. Not just the facts, your tone was so nice and
                    > caring, just like bringing up a young kid (well, that's how I feel
                    in
                    > this arena). Thanks again.
                    > I will need to read and re-read your instructions several times,
                    so
                    > that it becomes part of me. Once I try this out, I will let you
                    know
                    > how I am progressing.
                    > Regards,
                    > H P Shukla
                    > --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, "RK" <x.techie@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi (Can you please let us know your name),
                    > >
                    > > Welcome to the group. It's very heartening to see a senior
                    person
                    > becoming a
                    > > part of this group. I hope you are enjoying the car.
                    > >
                    > > I am afraid your habit is not the right one. In fact I will like
                    to
                    > ask you
                    > > to stop it immediately. Imagine condition when you are trying to
                    > ascent up
                    > > the hill and since the clutch plate has gone slippery, even
                    though
                    > the
                    > > engine is screaming there is no movement... that would be really
                    > bad. In
                    > > fact, it's not even your mistake, thats how those driving people
                    > teach the
                    > > wannabe drivers.
                    > >
                    > > In fact try out this:
                    > >
                    > > 1. I am assuming the car is on and in first gear and ofcourse
                    you
                    > are ready
                    > > for ascent. Also try this only with yourself i.e. make sure
                    the
                    > car is
                    > > not heavily loaded.
                    > > 2. Make sure hand brake is engaged.
                    > > 3. Now slowly leave the clutch and as soon as you feel a forward
                    > push leave
                    > > the hand brake and post some movement leave the clutch but
                    > slowly.
                    > > 4. All the while above is happening make sure your feet is
                    nowhere
                    > the
                    > > accelerator. Don't accelerate, no matter how much you are
                    > tempted.
                    > > 5. If you cant feel a forward movement, then most probably your
                    > clutch has
                    > > weaned out. Sorry if that has happened. Cause no matter a car
                    > can pull
                    > > itself, even at slope on first gear with no acceleration.
                    Things
                    > can be
                    > > little different if your car is really loaded (5+luggage).
                    > > 6. No body is perfect, even I had the same kind of habit, but
                    with
                    > an eye
                    > > opener from Hrishi (thanks Hrishi for that), I rectified and
                    now
                    > can
                    > > manage fully loaded car on the treacherous road of insides of
                    > Sinhagad.
                    > > 7. Always follow this thumb rule : NEVER USE ACCLERATOR AND
                    CLUTCH
                    > AT THE
                    > > SAME TIME... NEVER.
                    > > 8. If you are not confident, try out in some open space for e.g.
                    an
                    > open
                    > > ground.
                    > >
                    > > I hope that helps. Do let me know how it works. Fellow members
                    > please
                    > > correct me if I am wrong.
                    > >
                    > > ~RK
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________________
                    > > From: indica-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:indica-
                    > users@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > > Behalf Of oldman_driving
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM
                    > > To: indica-users@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [indica-users] half clutch and ascent
                    > >
                    > > Hi all,
                    > > I joined this group only yesterday (I hope so because I haven't
                    > heard
                    > > from the moderator).
                    > > I bought my first car - Indica XETA GLG (August 06)at the age of
                    50
                    > and
                    > > went to a driving school only after that. In six months I have
                    > driven
                    > > 2500 kms and got the first service done at Gola Ganapati Motors
                    > > Haldwani, Uttaranchal. No problems so far, except some scratches
                    on
                    > the
                    > > bumper left and right.
                    > > I live on the hills, so manoeuvring ascents is an everyday issue
                    for
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                  • Dev Abhishek
                    With a petrol car, you ll eventually end up in a situation where not using the throttle won t work. So, don t be distraught - just go ahead and accelerate *to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                      With a petrol car, you'll eventually end up in a situation where not using the throttle won't work. So, don't be distraught - just go ahead and accelerate *to the extent necessary*. Try and ensure that the clutch is release smoothly, and partial declutch is for the minimum period necessary.

                      Cheers,
                      Dev

                      Sameer Uppal <sameeruppal@...> wrote:
                      Hi RK,

                      I am a new driver (having secured my DL only in Dec'06) and have been eagerly lapping up the pearls of driving wisdom from veterans like you.

                      In my earlier mail to the group, I had spoken about the difficulty experienced by me in manoevouring ascents. I have been able to handle ascents with minimal steepness quite well using hand-brake and clutch as pointed by you and other folks. however, today the technique failed while manoevouring an extremely steep ascent; I could accomplish it only the 2nd or 3rd time and had to use the throttle as well ( contrary to your advise and observed the engine rpm had increased to above 3000). Please advise how to manoevoure steep ascents with handbrake and clutch only without resorting to throttle. As regards non-steep lopes I was able to manoevoure using the clutch and foot brake (I did not have to use the handbrake). Is this the right way?

                      Thanks in advance for your time.

                      Regards,

                      Sameer

                      Indica GLX (1400 cc); December 2006; 1900 KM; 11-12 KM mileagae with cent percent AC

                      RK <x.techie@...> wrote:
                      Hi (Can you please let us know your name),

                      Welcome to the group. It's very heartening to see a senior person becoming a
                      part of this group. I hope you are enjoying the car.

                      I am afraid your habit is not the right one. In fact I will like to ask you
                      to stop it immediately. Imagine condition when you are trying to ascent up
                      the hill and since the clutch plate has gone slippery, even though the
                      engine is screaming there is no movement... that would be really bad. In
                      fact, it's not even your mistake, thats how those driving people teach the
                      wannabe drivers.

                      In fact try out this:

                      1. I am assuming the car is on and in first gear and ofcourse you are ready
                      for ascent. Also try this only with yourself i.e. make sure the car is
                      not heavily loaded.
                      2. Make sure hand brake is engaged.
                      3. Now slowly leave the clutch and as soon as you feel a forward push leave
                      the hand brake and post some movement leave the clutch but slowly.
                      4. All the while above is happening make sure your feet is nowhere the
                      accelerator. Don't accelerate, no matter how much you are tempted.
                      5. If you cant feel a forward movement, then most probably your clutch has
                      weaned out. Sorry if that has happened. Cause no matter a car can pull
                      itself, even at slope on first gear with no acceleration. Things can be
                      little different if your car is really loaded (5+luggage).
                      6. No body is perfect, even I had the same kind of habit, but with an eye
                      opener from Hrishi (thanks Hrishi for that), I rectified and now can
                      manage fully loaded car on the treacherous road of insides of Sinhagad.
                      7. Always follow this thumb rule : NEVER USE ACCLERATOR AND CLUTCH AT THE
                      SAME TIME... NEVER.
                      8. If you are not confident, try out in some open space for e.g. an open
                      ground.

                      I hope that helps. Do let me know how it works. Fellow members please
                      correct me if I am wrong.

                      ~RK

                      ________________________________________
                      From: indica-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:indica-users@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of oldman_driving
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM
                      To: indica-users@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [indica-users] half clutch and ascent

                      Hi all,
                      I joined this group only yesterday (I hope so because I haven't heard
                      from the moderator).
                      I bought my first car - Indica XETA GLG (August 06)at the age of 50 and
                      went to a driving school only after that. In six months I have driven
                      2500 kms and got the first service done at Gola Ganapati Motors
                      Haldwani, Uttaranchal. No problems so far, except some scratches on the
                      bumper left and right.
                      I live on the hills, so manoeuvring ascents is an everyday issue for

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                    • Dev Abhishek
                      Hi, Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there s such a thing, will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is, what are you looking
                      Message 10 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                        Hi,

                        Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there's such a thing, will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is, what are you looking for while driving? Performance? Smooth ride? FE? Sometimes, these requirements can be orthogonal.

                        Cheers,
                        Dev

                        Sameer Uppal <sameeruppal@...> wrote:
                        Hi All (esp Hrishi)

                        PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the relevant post referred to by RK.

                        Thanks in advance.

                        Regards,

                        Sameer

                        RK <x.techie@...> wrote:
                        Sameer,

                        Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query,
                        please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                        please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                        http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar

                        Thanks
                        ~RK
                        Sameer Uppal wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi,
                        >
                        > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for
                        > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
                        > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift
                        > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether
                        > it is a recommended driving practise.
                        >
                        > Thanks in advance.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Sameer
                        >

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                      • Sameer Uppal
                        Hi, Sorry for not using my signature in my last mail. Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the longevity of my car and smooth ride. I
                        Message 11 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                          Hi,

                          Sorry for not using my signature in my last mail. Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the longevity of my car and smooth ride. I dont want to compromise on that front. FE, performance, etc. are secondary. Hence I was wondering about the ideal rpm (for smooth ride) and max permissible rpm (beyond which it may take a toll on the engine) for every gear. Hope I have been able to clarify my requirements.

                          Thanks so much for your time.

                          Regards,

                          Sameer

                          Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM, 40 KM run on weekdays, 11-12 KM mileage with 100% AC

                          Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                          Hi,

                          Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there's such a thing, will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is, what are you looking for while driving? Performance? Smooth ride? FE? Sometimes, these requirements can be orthogonal.

                          Cheers,
                          Dev

                          Sameer Uppal wrote:
                          Hi All (esp Hrishi)

                          PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the relevant post referred to by RK.

                          Thanks in advance.

                          Regards,

                          Sameer

                          RK wrote:
                          Sameer,

                          Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query,
                          please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                          please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                          http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar

                          Thanks
                          ~RK
                          Sameer Uppal wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for
                          > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
                          > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift
                          > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether
                          > it is a recommended driving practise.
                          >
                          > Thanks in advance.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Sameer
                          >

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                        • Hrishikesh Raghavan
                          Hi Sameer, ... I strongly believe that upshifting must take place in the 2000 - 2500 rpm band for any gear. This is the ideal compromise for engine life vs.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Mar 2, 2007
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                            Hi Sameer,

                            > Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the
                            > longevity of my car and smooth ride.
                            > Sameer
                            > Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM,

                            I strongly believe that upshifting must take place in the 2000 -
                            2500 rpm band for any gear. This is the ideal compromise for engine
                            life vs. performance.

                            For the first 1000 km, I upshifted as follows:
                            1-2: 20 kph
                            2-3: 40 kph
                            3-4: 60 kph
                            4-5: 80 kph
                            and didn't cross 90 kph as advised in the manual.

                            My car doesn't have a tachometer and so, thanks to data provided by
                            Rajesh and Achin, I have been able to find the ideal shift points.
                            What I use today (city) and advise everybody for the petrol Indica
                            is:

                            1-2: 15 kph
                            2-3: 30 kph
                            3-4: 45 kph
                            4-5: 60 kph

                            Yours being a new model will have a tacho, in which case I recommend
                            upshifting at the 2500 rpm mark for the city and 3000 rpm for the
                            highway.

                            The engine may sound rough at higher rpms initially but you'll find
                            it becoming smoother and quieter as the kms pile on.

                            Hrishi
                            LSi, March 2003, 76700 km, 11 kpl, Chennai
                          • Dev Abhishek
                            Engine life pretty much is a function of; 1) Tribological considerations 2) Thermal stresses Any marginal lube condition will greatly reduce the operating life
                            Message 13 of 29 , Mar 3, 2007
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                              Engine life pretty much is a function of;
                              1) Tribological considerations
                              2) Thermal stresses

                              Any marginal lube condition will greatly reduce the operating life of an engine. Pretty much each time you start an engine from stop, you do encounter a marginal lube condition, when the oil pump isn't working. So, be careful with cold starts, and even on a warm start, allow a few seconds (perhaps 5-10), for lube pressure to build up before accelerating. This is one of the reasons why indica highway taxis seem to run for ever - since the engine doesn't go through frequent starts and stops, lube pressure is almost always maintained a steady high.

                              Second point - it's been pointed out in this group that cars should be pushed to the point on the speed torque curve where torque peaks (presumably because that's the point of maximum efficiency). I do not agree with notion - drive in a gear where the engine can deliver torque *you need*. If the engine where to continuously deliver peak torque - it would perhaps last no more than a week.
                              With a petrol car, the torque does peak sharply in the "performance band". More than anything else, this is a point where the car "breathes" best - i.e., some combination of valve timing, throttle opening, intake manifold (length and profile), exhaust manifold (length and profile), all line up to ensure a sweet spot, where the engine torque peaks *if appropriate load exists* to hold the engine at that speed (otherwise, speed increases and you're no longer in your sweet spot. This *does not* mean that losses are minimised at this speed, as the popular notion goes.

                              In general, driving for better FE would help you with engine life. To discuss this in an intuitive fashion, for a given distance, you burn less fuel, and thus add less thermal load on the engine. There's less oil breakdown, and fewer problems from thermal stress.

                              For your concerns, the ideal rpm is a relatively small part of the equation.

                              Cheers,
                              Dev


                              Sameer Uppal <sameeruppal@...> wrote: Hi,

                              Sorry for not using my signature in my last mail. Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the longevity of my car and smooth ride. I dont want to compromise on that front. FE, performance, etc. are secondary. Hence I was wondering about the ideal rpm (for smooth ride) and max permissible rpm (beyond which it may take a toll on the engine) for every gear. Hope I have been able to clarify my requirements.

                              Thanks so much for your time.

                              Regards,

                              Sameer

                              Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM, 40 KM run on weekdays, 11-12 KM mileage with 100% AC

                              Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                              Hi,

                              Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there's such a thing, will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is, what are you looking for while driving? Performance? Smooth ride? FE? Sometimes, these requirements can be orthogonal.

                              Cheers,
                              Dev

                              Sameer Uppal wrote:
                              Hi All (esp Hrishi)

                              PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the relevant post referred to by RK.

                              Thanks in advance.

                              Regards,

                              Sameer

                              RK wrote:
                              Sameer,

                              Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your query,
                              please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                              please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                              http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar

                              Thanks
                              ~RK
                              Sameer Uppal wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm for
                              > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm in any
                              > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I upshift
                              > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise whether
                              > it is a recommended driving practise.
                              >
                              > Thanks in advance.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Sameer
                              >

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                            • Hrishikesh Raghavan
                              Hi, ... I agree with this - although I still maintain that taking the engine to the peak torque rpm or just below in each gear and then upshifting is good for
                              Message 14 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                Hi,

                                > Second point - it's been pointed out in this group that cars
                                > should be pushed to the point on the speed torque curve where
                                > torque peaks (presumably because that's the point of maximum
                                > efficiency). I do not agree with notion - drive in a gear where
                                > the engine can deliver torque *you need*. If the engine where to
                                > continuously deliver peak torque - it would perhaps last no more
                                > than a week.

                                I agree with this - although I still maintain that taking the engine
                                to the peak torque rpm or just below in each gear and then
                                upshifting is good for the engine in the long run. Even if you
                                upshift at 3000 rpm, after the shift, the petrol Indica would drop
                                to around 2000 rpm in the higher gear.

                                For highways, the petrol Indica's sweet spot for FE without
                                compromising on speed is 90 kph in 5th.

                                > In general, driving for better FE would help you with engine life.
                                > To discuss this in an intuitive fashion, for a given distance, you
                                > burn less fuel, and thus add less thermal load on the engine.
                                > There's less oil breakdown, and fewer problems from thermal stress.

                                Spot on again although it is good to give the engine a taste of
                                higher rpms once in a while. And make sure we never lug the engine.

                                Cheers,
                                Hrishi
                                LSi, March 2003, 76741 km, 11 kpl, Chennai
                              • misraakhilesh
                                Dear Abhishek, There is a slight correction to the function that you list. The wear of the is primarily caused by friction between components and fatigue of
                                Message 15 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                  Dear Abhishek,

                                  There is a slight correction to the function that you list. The wear
                                  of the is primarily caused by friction between components and fatigue
                                  of components.

                                  The fatigue values are dependent upon the engine rpm. The fatigue
                                  stresses are proportional to the square of the engine rpm. Therefore
                                  keeping the rpm low enhances the engine life.

                                  Regards,

                                  Akhilesh

                                  DLX 2001, 30000 km 15kmpl/city 18kmpl on highway.





                                  --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Engine life pretty much is a function of;
                                  > 1) Tribological considerations
                                  > 2) Thermal stresses
                                  >
                                  > Any marginal lube condition will greatly reduce the operating life
                                  of an engine. Pretty much each time you start an engine from stop, you
                                  do encounter a marginal lube condition, when the oil pump isn't
                                  working. So, be careful with cold starts, and even on a warm start,
                                  allow a few seconds (perhaps 5-10), for lube pressure to build up
                                  before accelerating. This is one of the reasons why indica highway
                                  taxis seem to run for ever - since the engine doesn't go through
                                  frequent starts and stops, lube pressure is almost always maintained a
                                  steady high.
                                  >
                                  > Second point - it's been pointed out in this group that cars should
                                  be pushed to the point on the speed torque curve where torque peaks
                                  (presumably because that's the point of maximum efficiency). I do not
                                  agree with notion - drive in a gear where the engine can deliver
                                  torque *you need*. If the engine where to continuously deliver peak
                                  torque - it would perhaps last no more than a week.
                                  > With a petrol car, the torque does peak sharply in the "performance
                                  band". More than anything else, this is a point where the car
                                  "breathes" best - i.e., some combination of valve timing, throttle
                                  opening, intake manifold (length and profile), exhaust manifold
                                  (length and profile), all line up to ensure a sweet spot, where the
                                  engine torque peaks *if appropriate load exists* to hold the engine at
                                  that speed (otherwise, speed increases and you're no longer in your
                                  sweet spot. This *does not* mean that losses are minimised at this
                                  speed, as the popular notion goes.
                                  >
                                  > In general, driving for better FE would help you with engine life.
                                  To discuss this in an intuitive fashion, for a given distance, you
                                  burn less fuel, and thus add less thermal load on the engine. There's
                                  less oil breakdown, and fewer problems from thermal stress.
                                  >
                                  > For your concerns, the ideal rpm is a relatively small part of the
                                  equation.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Dev
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sameer Uppal <sameeruppal@...> wrote:
                                  Hi,
                                  >
                                  > Sorry for not using my signature in my last mail. Well, I am
                                  looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the longevity of my
                                  car and smooth ride. I dont want to compromise on that front. FE,
                                  performance, etc. are secondary. Hence I was wondering about the ideal
                                  rpm (for smooth ride) and max permissible rpm (beyond which it may
                                  take a toll on the engine) for every gear. Hope I have been able to
                                  clarify my requirements.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks so much for your time.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  >
                                  > Sameer
                                  >
                                  > Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM, 40 KM run on weekdays,
                                  11-12 KM mileage with 100% AC
                                  >
                                  > Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there's such a thing,
                                  will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is,
                                  what are you looking for while driving? Performance? Smooth ride? FE?
                                  Sometimes, these requirements can be orthogonal.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Dev
                                  >
                                  > Sameer Uppal wrote:
                                  > Hi All (esp Hrishi)
                                  >
                                  > PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the
                                  ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the
                                  relevant post referred to by RK.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks in advance.
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  >
                                  > Sameer
                                  >
                                  > RK wrote:
                                  > Sameer,
                                  >
                                  > Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your
                                  query,
                                  > please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                                  > please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                                  > http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar
                                  >
                                  > Thanks
                                  > ~RK
                                  > Sameer Uppal wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi,
                                  > >
                                  > > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm
                                  for
                                  > > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm
                                  in any
                                  > > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I
                                  upshift
                                  > > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise
                                  whether
                                  > > it is a recommended driving practise.
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks in advance.
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > Sameer
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > To UNsubscribe, send a blank email to the address:
                                  > indica-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > For submitting feedback about your Indica, use:
                                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/files/indica-users/IndicaUsersFeedback.html
                                  > See our FAQ by BLOG -
                                  http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13

                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > ---------------------------------
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                                  > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                  address from your Internet provider.
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > To UNsubscribe, send a blank email to the address:
                                  > indica-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > For submitting feedback about your Indica, use:
                                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/files/indica-users/IndicaUsersFeedback.html
                                  > See our FAQ by BLOG -
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                                • RK
                                  Thanks Hrishi, I have updated the same on my site here: http://tinyurl.com/33c6qm, Please let me know if you have any objection. Thanks ~RK
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                    Thanks Hrishi,

                                    I have updated the same on my site here: http://tinyurl.com/33c6qm, Please
                                    let me know if you have any objection.

                                    Thanks
                                    ~RK

                                    ________________________________________
                                    From: indica-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:indica-users@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Hrishikesh Raghavan
                                    Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 11:52 AM
                                    To: indica-users@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [indica-users] Re: Engine RPM

                                    Hi Sameer,

                                    > Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the
                                    > longevity of my car and smooth ride.
                                    > Sameer
                                    > Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM,

                                    I strongly believe that upshifting must take place in the 2000 -
                                    2500 rpm band for any gear. This is the ideal compromise for engine
                                    life vs. performance.
                                  • Dev Abhishek
                                    Dear Akhilesh, What you say is absolutely true - but for heavy duty engines, I d think. Think locomotives or marine diesels - which operate at fairly low
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                      Dear Akhilesh,

                                      What you say is absolutely true - but for heavy duty engines, I'd think. Think locomotives or marine diesels - which operate at fairly low specific power outputs.
                                      In an automotive engine, perhaps the only component that does suffer extreme fatigue is the con-ron (and not during compression, as most people things, but while the piston is accelerating).

                                      That said - have you ever heard of a con-rod failing in a modern auto-engine? :-)
                                      If it does fail - it's assumed to be manufacturing defect and promptly replaced. Of course, the cost of labour itself would be much higher than the cost of the part.

                                      I did mention tribological effects - loss of lube pressure - which did imply of course, that friction is a primary culprit.

                                      A misaligned con-rod can increase friction between ring and liner. Also, persistent high temperatures lead the piston to expand, again leading to increased friction between rings and liner (and increasing compression, which causes more heat, and a vicious cycle). In petrols, of course, there's no liner - so it's the block that takes the hit - perhaps worse. Plus, in petrols the piston tends to get much hotter.

                                      Thanks for you inputs. I agree with them, but we are debating specifics I guess. Please chip in with your comments.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Dev
                                      misraakhilesh <misraakhilesh@...> wrote: Dear Abhishek,

                                      There is a slight correction to the function that you list. The wear
                                      of the is primarily caused by friction between components and fatigue
                                      of components.

                                      The fatigue values are dependent upon the engine rpm. The fatigue
                                      stresses are proportional to the square of the engine rpm. Therefore
                                      keeping the rpm low enhances the engine life.

                                      Regards,

                                      Akhilesh

                                      DLX 2001, 30000 km 15kmpl/city 18kmpl on highway.

                                      --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Engine life pretty much is a function of;
                                      > 1) Tribological considerations
                                      > 2) Thermal stresses
                                      >
                                      > Any marginal lube condition will greatly reduce the operating life
                                      of an engine. Pretty much each time you start an engine from stop, you
                                      do encounter a marginal lube condition, when the oil pump isn't
                                      working. So, be careful with cold starts, and even on a warm start,
                                      allow a few seconds (perhaps 5-10), for lube pressure to build up
                                      before accelerating. This is one of the reasons why indica highway
                                      taxis seem to run for ever - since the engine doesn't go through
                                      frequent starts and stops, lube pressure is almost always maintained a
                                      steady high.
                                      >
                                      > Second point - it's been pointed out in this group that cars should
                                      be pushed to the point on the speed torque curve where torque peaks
                                      (presumably because that's the point of maximum efficiency). I do not
                                      agree with notion - drive in a gear where the engine can deliver
                                      torque *you need*. If the engine where to continuously deliver peak
                                      torque - it would perhaps last no more than a week.
                                      > With a petrol car, the torque does peak sharply in the "performance
                                      band". More than anything else, this is a point where the car
                                      "breathes" best - i.e., some combination of valve timing, throttle
                                      opening, intake manifold (length and profile), exhaust manifold
                                      (length and profile), all line up to ensure a sweet spot, where the
                                      engine torque peaks *if appropriate load exists* to hold the engine at
                                      that speed (otherwise, speed increases and you're no longer in your
                                      sweet spot. This *does not* mean that losses are minimised at this
                                      speed, as the popular notion goes.
                                      >
                                      > In general, driving for better FE would help you with engine life.
                                      To discuss this in an intuitive fashion, for a given distance, you
                                      burn less fuel, and thus add less thermal load on the engine. There's
                                      less oil breakdown, and fewer problems from thermal stress.
                                      >
                                      > For your concerns, the ideal rpm is a relatively small part of the
                                      equation.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > Dev
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sameer Uppal <sameeruppal@...> wrote:
                                      Hi,
                                      >
                                      > Sorry for not using my signature in my last mail. Well, I am
                                      looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the longevity of my
                                      car and smooth ride. I dont want to compromise on that front. FE,
                                      performance, etc. are secondary. Hence I was wondering about the ideal
                                      rpm (for smooth ride) and max permissible rpm (beyond which it may
                                      take a toll on the engine) for every gear. Hope I have been able to
                                      clarify my requirements.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks so much for your time.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      > Sameer
                                      >
                                      > Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM, 40 KM run on weekdays,
                                      11-12 KM mileage with 100% AC
                                      >
                                      > Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...> wrote:
                                      > Hi,
                                      >
                                      > Which model do you drive? The ideal rpm, if there's such a thing,
                                      will vary on load, ascent and a lot of other things. My question is,
                                      what are you looking for while driving? Performance? Smooth ride? FE?
                                      Sometimes, these requirements can be orthogonal.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > Dev
                                      >
                                      > Sameer Uppal wrote:
                                      > Hi All (esp Hrishi)
                                      >
                                      > PFA the requested doc. I spent a lot of time to search for the
                                      ideal rpm post but seems could not find the right one.Please share the
                                      relevant post referred to by RK.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks in advance.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      > Sameer
                                      >
                                      > RK wrote:
                                      > Sameer,
                                      >
                                      > Hrishi (from Chennai) had posted nice compilation regarding your
                                      query,
                                      > please search the archive, you will definitely find it. If possible,
                                      > please mail me offline, I will post it in my web's archive:
                                      > http://www.veeresh.info/cgi-bin/view/BikesAndCars/TataIndicaCar
                                      >
                                      > Thanks
                                      > ~RK
                                      > Sameer Uppal wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi,
                                      > >
                                      > > I wanted to check whether there is an ideal/ optimum and peak rpm
                                      for
                                      > > each gear. Normally, i never allow my car to go beyond 2000 rpm
                                      in any
                                      > > gear; while ascending if the engine increases beyond 2000 rpm, I
                                      upshift
                                      > > (from 2nd gear to 3rd ) to achieve the 2000 rpm. Please advise
                                      whether
                                      > > it is a recommended driving practise.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks in advance.
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards,
                                      > >
                                      > > Sameer
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > To UNsubscribe, send a blank email to the address:
                                      > indica-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > For submitting feedback about your Indica, use:
                                      http://www.yahoogroups.com/files/indica-users/IndicaUsersFeedback.html
                                      > See our FAQ by BLOG -
                                      http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/indica-users/database?method=reportRows&tbl=13

                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
                                      > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                      > For submitting feedback about your Indica, use:
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                                    • Dev Abhishek
                                      Hi Hrishi, If you made the case that cars deliver a better driving experience at a certain rpm where torque peaks - no questions about that. But I would be
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                        Hi Hrishi,

                                        If you made the case that cars deliver a better driving experience at a certain rpm where torque peaks - no questions about that. But I would be reluctant to agree that this could enhance engine life.

                                        Consider this; a) Our typical locomotives (diesel-electric) run from 320 rpm to about 1200 rpm. While cruising, they are typically run at 700 rpm. Typically run a million kms before an overhaul is required.
                                        b) The most powerful engines in the world, the marine diesels, have a speed of about 102 rpm. They last for like forever.

                                        Now consider formula one cars - run at 18,000 rpm. In spite of top notch engineering and materials - the engine lasts two races (about a 1000 miles).

                                        If you'd have noticed - automatic gear systems typically maintain a fairly low rpm while cruising. I had this rpm thing in mind, and I very carefully noticed the behaviour of my rental car yesterday. This is a 3.5L v6 chevy malibu. At 75mph, the tacho was at 2000 rpm.

                                        In older cars - our good old fiats and ambys, oil pumps tended to be a bit temperamental. It made then a lot of sense to keep the engine at a certain rpm, simply to ensure lube pressure. These days, the gear type oil pumps are overdesigned, and equipped with a bleeder. Thus, even at fairly low rpm, the pump builds sufficient pressure. At higher rpms, the pressure is more than what's needed and suitably bled off.

                                        Good discussion, let's keep it going. I'll try and find some links about these topics.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Dev
                                        Hrishikesh Raghavan <raghavan_h@...> wrote: Hi,

                                        > Second point - it's been pointed out in this group that cars
                                        > should be pushed to the point on the speed torque curve where
                                        > torque peaks (presumably because that's the point of maximum
                                        > efficiency). I do not agree with notion - drive in a gear where
                                        > the engine can deliver torque *you need*. If the engine where to
                                        > continuously deliver peak torque - it would perhaps last no more
                                        > than a week.

                                        I agree with this - although I still maintain that taking the engine
                                        to the peak torque rpm or just below in each gear and then
                                        upshifting is good for the engine in the long run. Even if you
                                        upshift at 3000 rpm, after the shift, the petrol Indica would drop
                                        to around 2000 rpm in the higher gear.

                                        For highways, the petrol Indica's sweet spot for FE without
                                        compromising on speed is 90 kph in 5th.

                                        > In general, driving for better FE would help you with engine life.
                                        > To discuss this in an intuitive fashion, for a given distance, you
                                        > burn less fuel, and thus add less thermal load on the engine.
                                        > There's less oil breakdown, and fewer problems from thermal stress.

                                        Spot on again although it is good to give the engine a taste of
                                        higher rpms once in a while. And make sure we never lug the engine.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Hrishi
                                        LSi, March 2003, 76741 km, 11 kpl, Chennai






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                                      • Sameer Uppal
                                        Hi Hrishi, Thanks for the insight. Regards, Sameer Hrishikesh Raghavan wrote: Hi Sameer, ... I strongly believe that upshifting
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Mar 4, 2007
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                                          Hi Hrishi,

                                          Thanks for the insight.

                                          Regards,

                                          Sameer

                                          Hrishikesh Raghavan <raghavan_h@...> wrote:
                                          Hi Sameer,

                                          > Well, I am looking at preserving my engine thereby ensuring the
                                          > longevity of my car and smooth ride.
                                          > Sameer
                                          > Indica GLX, Dec'06, 1400 cc, 2000 KM,

                                          I strongly believe that upshifting must take place in the 2000 -
                                          2500 rpm band for any gear. This is the ideal compromise for engine
                                          life vs. performance.

                                          For the first 1000 km, I upshifted as follows:
                                          1-2: 20 kph
                                          2-3: 40 kph
                                          3-4: 60 kph
                                          4-5: 80 kph
                                          and didn't cross 90 kph as advised in the manual.

                                          My car doesn't have a tachometer and so, thanks to data provided by
                                          Rajesh and Achin, I have been able to find the ideal shift points.
                                          What I use today (city) and advise everybody for the petrol Indica
                                          is:

                                          1-2: 15 kph
                                          2-3: 30 kph
                                          3-4: 45 kph
                                          4-5: 60 kph

                                          Yours being a new model will have a tacho, in which case I recommend
                                          upshifting at the 2500 rpm mark for the city and 3000 rpm for the
                                          highway.

                                          The engine may sound rough at higher rpms initially but you'll find
                                          it becoming smoother and quieter as the kms pile on.

                                          Hrishi
                                          LSi, March 2003, 76700 km, 11 kpl, Chennai






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                                        • oldman_driving
                                          ... Thanks for everything you taught. I have gained a fair command of both the hand brake and the foot brake techniques. But yes, on steep ascents a little
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Mar 15, 2007
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                                            --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            >Dear Dev,
                                            Thanks for everything you taught. I have gained a fair command of
                                            both the hand brake and the foot brake techniques. But yes, on steep
                                            ascents a little acceleration is needed just before the final release
                                            of the clutch: otherwise the engine stalls. Or may be I need more
                                            practice.
                                            Before joining the group I had no idea what a tachometer was doing
                                            there. Now I drive only with an eye on the tacho, and seldom on the
                                            speedo.
                                            A query again:
                                            Sometime when I am not driving much - say, 5 kms twice a week - and
                                            then the car is parked idle for 6 days, the battery is bloody damn
                                            down and the car needs a push start. Something wrong with the battery?
                                            TASC fellow ignored my problem saying - big engine...needs more
                                            power...run the engine for 15 minutes every 3rd day. Help please!!!
                                            Regards,
                                            HP Shukla

                                            Hello Shukla-Ji,
                                            >
                                            > Both methods are fine - using "heel-toe" on extreme gradients
                                            does need more skill. In my experience, using the hand-brake
                                            frequently slackens it (I gues in your case you will need to use it
                                            very frequently). These does, service interval can be 10,000 kms
                                            apart - hence, the hand-brake can develop considerable slack in this
                                            time (it's spring loaded, manually actuated, unlike the foot-brakes,
                                            which are pneumatically actuated.) Of course, you can also learn to
                                            adjust the brakes yourself.
                                            >
                                            > Develop both skills, you never know which you'll need. Your
                                            Petrol car may not have enough torque at Idling to start off on steep
                                            slopes - you may need to use the accelerator depending on load and
                                            degree of gradient.
                                            >
                                            > Obviously, the local mechanic exposed the wiring harness at some
                                            point, causing a short to ground or something like that. Try and have
                                            the reverse horn installed at a TASC. However, please be advised that
                                            all reverse horns and musical horns are illegal.
                                            >
                                            > Best,
                                            > Dev
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > oldman_driving <oldman_driving@...> wrote:
                                            > Hello Dev,
                                            > Mine is a xeta glg, a 1.4 petrol.
                                            > Well, what you explain is exactly what i have been trying out. But
                                            RK
                                            > obviously is talking something else: he is asking to use the hand
                                            > brake. Yours and RK's are two DIFFERENT methods - without and with
                                            > handbrake. Which one is more correct???
                                            >
                                            > If you are out there, RK, we need your comment on Dev's method.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks all the same for this and other tips, Dev. With all you guys
                                            > around, it's going to be a great learning experience for me.
                                            >
                                            > Here is another query: the manual says about provision for
                                            reversing
                                            > horn. Where is that? My local mechanic fixed the horn just under
                                            the
                                            > rear bonnet, but everytime the car is washed something goes wrong
                                            > with the horn. A few days back it just stopped functioning after
                                            > giving some strange squeaking sound.
                                            > HP Shukla
                                            > --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Shukla-ji,
                                            > >
                                            > > Welcome to the group. I guess you are the first member from
                                            > Uttaranchal. (My apologies if I've missed someone).
                                            > >
                                            > > RK has pretty much outlined what needs to be done - you don't say
                                            > if you have a diesel or a petrol model. Diesels will typically
                                            start
                                            > on most reasonable slopes without too much trouble. Petrols are a
                                            > slightly different story.
                                            > >
                                            > > All of us have gone through the process of learning to use the
                                            > clutch initially, don't be embarrassed if you do end up stalling
                                            the
                                            > vehicle a few time. It's a 3 part process, if you aren't using hand-
                                            > brake;
                                            > >
                                            > > 1) With the foot-brake applied, release the clutch to a point.
                                            The
                                            > car leans forward, and you'd notice that engine rpm has dipped
                                            > slightly. the point is to release the clutch to the point where the
                                            > engine won't stall, and the car leans forward.
                                            > > 2) In all but exceptional slopes, the car won't move back beyond
                                            > this point. Release the clutch and brake simultaneously to ensure a
                                            > lurch free roll-off.
                                            > > 3) Accelerate smoothly and shift when appropriate
                                            > >
                                            > > Additional precautions while driving on ghats;
                                            > > 1) Do not coast the car
                                            > > 2) Go down in the same gear as you'd need to climb the slope (try
                                            > to minimise reliance on brakes to control speed while going down-
                                            hill)
                                            > > 3) Anticipate the gear required and shift *before* you enter a
                                            > gradient. If you do that after getting into the gradient, the car
                                            may
                                            > roll back when you use the clutch.
                                            > >
                                            > > Cheers,
                                            > > Dev
                                            > > oldman_driving <oldman_driving@>
                                            > wrote: Hello RK,
                                            > > I am H P Shukla (call me Hari or Shukla)
                                            > > Thanks a lot, man. Not just the facts, your tone was so nice and
                                            > > caring, just like bringing up a young kid (well, that's how I
                                            feel
                                            > in
                                            > > this arena). Thanks again.
                                            > > I will need to read and re-read your instructions several times,
                                            > so
                                            > > that it becomes part of me. Once I try this out, I will let you
                                            > know
                                            > > how I am progressing.
                                            > > Regards,
                                            > > H P Shukla
                                            > > --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, "RK" <x.techie@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi (Can you please let us know your name),
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Welcome to the group. It's very heartening to see a senior
                                            > person
                                            > > becoming a
                                            > > > part of this group. I hope you are enjoying the car.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I am afraid your habit is not the right one. In fact I will
                                            like
                                            > to
                                            > > ask you
                                            > > > to stop it immediately. Imagine condition when you are trying
                                            to
                                            > > ascent up
                                            > > > the hill and since the clutch plate has gone slippery, even
                                            > though
                                            > > the
                                            > > > engine is screaming there is no movement... that would be
                                            really
                                            > > bad. In
                                            > > > fact, it's not even your mistake, thats how those driving
                                            people
                                            > > teach the
                                            > > > wannabe drivers.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In fact try out this:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > 1. I am assuming the car is on and in first gear and ofcourse
                                            > you
                                            > > are ready
                                            > > > for ascent. Also try this only with yourself i.e. make sure
                                            > the
                                            > > car is
                                            > > > not heavily loaded.
                                            > > > 2. Make sure hand brake is engaged.
                                            > > > 3. Now slowly leave the clutch and as soon as you feel a
                                            forward
                                            > > push leave
                                            > > > the hand brake and post some movement leave the clutch but
                                            > > slowly.
                                            > > > 4. All the while above is happening make sure your feet is
                                            > nowhere
                                            > > the
                                            > > > accelerator. Don't accelerate, no matter how much you are
                                            > > tempted.
                                            > > > 5. If you cant feel a forward movement, then most probably your
                                            > > clutch has
                                            > > > weaned out. Sorry if that has happened. Cause no matter a car
                                            > > can pull
                                            > > > itself, even at slope on first gear with no acceleration.
                                            > Things
                                            > > can be
                                            > > > little different if your car is really loaded (5+luggage).
                                            > > > 6. No body is perfect, even I had the same kind of habit, but
                                            > with
                                            > > an eye
                                            > > > opener from Hrishi (thanks Hrishi for that), I rectified and
                                            > now
                                            > > can
                                            > > > manage fully loaded car on the treacherous road of insides of
                                            > > Sinhagad.
                                            > > > 7. Always follow this thumb rule : NEVER USE ACCLERATOR AND
                                            > CLUTCH
                                            > > AT THE
                                            > > > SAME TIME... NEVER.
                                            > > > 8. If you are not confident, try out in some open space for
                                            e.g.
                                            > an
                                            > > open
                                            > > > ground.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I hope that helps. Do let me know how it works. Fellow members
                                            > > please
                                            > > > correct me if I am wrong.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ~RK
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ________________________________________
                                            > > > From: indica-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:indica-
                                            > > users@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            > > > Behalf Of oldman_driving
                                            > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM
                                            > > > To: indica-users@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Subject: [indica-users] half clutch and ascent
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Hi all,
                                            > > > I joined this group only yesterday (I hope so because I haven't
                                            > > heard
                                            > > > from the moderator).
                                            > > > I bought my first car - Indica XETA GLG (August 06)at the age
                                            of
                                            > 50
                                            > > and
                                            > > > went to a driving school only after that. In six months I have
                                            > > driven
                                            > > > 2500 kms and got the first service done at Gola Ganapati Motors
                                            > > > Haldwani, Uttaranchal. No problems so far, except some
                                            scratches
                                            > on
                                            > > the
                                            > > > bumper left and right.
                                            > > > I live on the hills, so manoeuvring ascents is an everyday
                                            issue
                                            > for
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ---------------------------------
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                                            > Find out more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games
                                            and
                                            > win prizes.
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ---------------------------------
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                                            >
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                                            >
                                          • Dev Abhishek
                                            abt the battery, there s something wrong with either your charging circuit (unlikely for a new car), or there s some electrical load on the battery even when
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Mar 15, 2007
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                                              abt the battery, there's something wrong with either your charging circuit (unlikely for a new car), or there's some electrical load on the battery even when your ignition is off. if you can find someone that can measure the current drain from the battery with keys off the car, that would help. you can do it yourself with a half-decent multimeter. reasonable digital ones cost about 300-350 in bangalore. a very useful tool to have if you like tinkering with stuff.

                                              to the best of my knowledge, the only load that's constantly on you battery is the digital clock and any anti-theft device or burglar alarm that you may have installed. i'm not sure how much current these bleed. can someone else comment on this?

                                              cheers,
                                              dev

                                              oldman_driving <oldman_driving@...> wrote: --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              >Dear Dev,
                                              Thanks for everything you taught. I have gained a fair command of
                                              both the hand brake and the foot brake techniques. But yes, on steep
                                              ascents a little acceleration is needed just before the final release
                                              of the clutch: otherwise the engine stalls. Or may be I need more
                                              practice.
                                              Before joining the group I had no idea what a tachometer was doing
                                              there. Now I drive only with an eye on the tacho, and seldom on the
                                              speedo.
                                              A query again:
                                              Sometime when I am not driving much - say, 5 kms twice a week - and
                                              then the car is parked idle for 6 days, the battery is bloody damn
                                              down and the car needs a push start. Something wrong with the battery?
                                              TASC fellow ignored my problem saying - big engine...needs more
                                              power...run the engine for 15 minutes every 3rd day. Help please!!!
                                              Regards,
                                              HP Shukla

                                              Hello Shukla-Ji,
                                              >
                                              > Both methods are fine - using "heel-toe" on extreme gradients
                                              does need more skill. In my experience, using the hand-brake
                                              frequently slackens it (I gues in your case you will need to use it
                                              very frequently). These does, service interval can be 10,000 kms
                                              apart - hence, the hand-brake can develop considerable slack in this
                                              time (it's spring loaded, manually actuated, unlike the foot-brakes,
                                              which are pneumatically actuated.) Of course, you can also learn to
                                              adjust the brakes yourself.
                                              >
                                              > Develop both skills, you never know which you'll need. Your
                                              Petrol car may not have enough torque at Idling to start off on steep
                                              slopes - you may need to use the accelerator depending on load and
                                              degree of gradient.
                                              >
                                              > Obviously, the local mechanic exposed the wiring harness at some
                                              point, causing a short to ground or something like that. Try and have
                                              the reverse horn installed at a TASC. However, please be advised that
                                              all reverse horns and musical horns are illegal.
                                              >
                                              > Best,
                                              > Dev
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > oldman_driving <oldman_driving@...> wrote:
                                              > Hello Dev,
                                              > Mine is a xeta glg, a 1.4 petrol.
                                              > Well, what you explain is exactly what i have been trying out. But
                                              RK
                                              > obviously is talking something else: he is asking to use the hand
                                              > brake. Yours and RK's are two DIFFERENT methods - without and with
                                              > handbrake. Which one is more correct???
                                              >
                                              > If you are out there, RK, we need your comment on Dev's method.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks all the same for this and other tips, Dev. With all you guys
                                              > around, it's going to be a great learning experience for me.
                                              >
                                              > Here is another query: the manual says about provision for
                                              reversing
                                              > horn. Where is that? My local mechanic fixed the horn just under
                                              the
                                              > rear bonnet, but everytime the car is washed something goes wrong
                                              > with the horn. A few days back it just stopped functioning after
                                              > giving some strange squeaking sound.
                                              > HP Shukla
                                              > --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, Dev Abhishek <devabhishek@>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Shukla-ji,
                                              > >
                                              > > Welcome to the group. I guess you are the first member from
                                              > Uttaranchal. (My apologies if I've missed someone).
                                              > >
                                              > > RK has pretty much outlined what needs to be done - you don't say
                                              > if you have a diesel or a petrol model. Diesels will typically
                                              start
                                              > on most reasonable slopes without too much trouble. Petrols are a
                                              > slightly different story.
                                              > >
                                              > > All of us have gone through the process of learning to use the
                                              > clutch initially, don't be embarrassed if you do end up stalling
                                              the
                                              > vehicle a few time. It's a 3 part process, if you aren't using hand-
                                              > brake;
                                              > >
                                              > > 1) With the foot-brake applied, release the clutch to a point.
                                              The
                                              > car leans forward, and you'd notice that engine rpm has dipped
                                              > slightly. the point is to release the clutch to the point where the
                                              > engine won't stall, and the car leans forward.
                                              > > 2) In all but exceptional slopes, the car won't move back beyond
                                              > this point. Release the clutch and brake simultaneously to ensure a
                                              > lurch free roll-off.
                                              > > 3) Accelerate smoothly and shift when appropriate
                                              > >
                                              > > Additional precautions while driving on ghats;
                                              > > 1) Do not coast the car
                                              > > 2) Go down in the same gear as you'd need to climb the slope (try
                                              > to minimise reliance on brakes to control speed while going down-
                                              hill)
                                              > > 3) Anticipate the gear required and shift *before* you enter a
                                              > gradient. If you do that after getting into the gradient, the car
                                              may
                                              > roll back when you use the clutch.
                                              > >
                                              > > Cheers,
                                              > > Dev
                                              > > oldman_driving <oldman_driving@>
                                              > wrote: Hello RK,
                                              > > I am H P Shukla (call me Hari or Shukla)
                                              > > Thanks a lot, man. Not just the facts, your tone was so nice and
                                              > > caring, just like bringing up a young kid (well, that's how I
                                              feel
                                              > in
                                              > > this arena). Thanks again.
                                              > > I will need to read and re-read your instructions several times,
                                              > so
                                              > > that it becomes part of me. Once I try this out, I will let you
                                              > know
                                              > > how I am progressing.
                                              > > Regards,
                                              > > H P Shukla
                                              > > --- In indica-users@yahoogroups.com, "RK" <x.techie@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi (Can you please let us know your name),
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Welcome to the group. It's very heartening to see a senior
                                              > person
                                              > > becoming a
                                              > > > part of this group. I hope you are enjoying the car.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I am afraid your habit is not the right one. In fact I will
                                              like
                                              > to
                                              > > ask you
                                              > > > to stop it immediately. Imagine condition when you are trying
                                              to
                                              > > ascent up
                                              > > > the hill and since the clutch plate has gone slippery, even
                                              > though
                                              > > the
                                              > > > engine is screaming there is no movement... that would be
                                              really
                                              > > bad. In
                                              > > > fact, it's not even your mistake, thats how those driving
                                              people
                                              > > teach the
                                              > > > wannabe drivers.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > In fact try out this:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > 1. I am assuming the car is on and in first gear and ofcourse
                                              > you
                                              > > are ready
                                              > > > for ascent. Also try this only with yourself i.e. make sure
                                              > the
                                              > > car is
                                              > > > not heavily loaded.
                                              > > > 2. Make sure hand brake is engaged.
                                              > > > 3. Now slowly leave the clutch and as soon as you feel a
                                              forward
                                              > > push leave
                                              > > > the hand brake and post some movement leave the clutch but
                                              > > slowly.
                                              > > > 4. All the while above is happening make sure your feet is
                                              > nowhere
                                              > > the
                                              > > > accelerator. Don't accelerate, no matter how much you are
                                              > > tempted.
                                              > > > 5. If you cant feel a forward movement, then most probably your
                                              > > clutch has
                                              > > > weaned out. Sorry if that has happened. Cause no matter a car
                                              > > can pull
                                              > > > itself, even at slope on first gear with no acceleration.
                                              > Things
                                              > > can be
                                              > > > little different if your car is really loaded (5+luggage).
                                              > > > 6. No body is perfect, even I had the same kind of habit, but
                                              > with
                                              > > an eye
                                              > > > opener from Hrishi (thanks Hrishi for that), I rectified and
                                              > now
                                              > > can
                                              > > > manage fully loaded car on the treacherous road of insides of
                                              > > Sinhagad.
                                              > > > 7. Always follow this thumb rule : NEVER USE ACCLERATOR AND
                                              > CLUTCH
                                              > > AT THE
                                              > > > SAME TIME... NEVER.
                                              > > > 8. If you are not confident, try out in some open space for
                                              e.g.
                                              > an
                                              > > open
                                              > > > ground.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I hope that helps. Do let me know how it works. Fellow members
                                              > > please
                                              > > > correct me if I am wrong.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ~RK
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ________________________________________
                                              > > > From: indica-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:indica-
                                              > > users@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              > > > Behalf Of oldman_driving
                                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM
                                              > > > To: indica-users@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: [indica-users] half clutch and ascent
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi all,
                                              > > > I joined this group only yesterday (I hope so because I haven't
                                              > > heard
                                              > > > from the moderator).
                                              > > > I bought my first car - Indica XETA GLG (August 06)at the age
                                              of
                                              > 50
                                              > > and
                                              > > > went to a driving school only after that. In six months I have
                                              > > driven
                                              > > > 2500 kms and got the first service done at Gola Ganapati Motors
                                              > > > Haldwani, Uttaranchal. No problems so far, except some
                                              scratches
                                              > on
                                              > > the
                                              > > > bumper left and right.
                                              > > > I live on the hills, so manoeuvring ascents is an everyday
                                              issue
                                              > for
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
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                                              >
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                                            • Sudarsan Kumar
                                              hi all i had to top up my coolant with water too...and i took it to a service point to check for leaks. the mechaninc said that the radiator is leaking and has
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Mar 26, 2007
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                                                hi all

                                                i had to top up my coolant with water too...and i took it to a service
                                                point to check for leaks.
                                                the mechaninc said that the radiator is leaking and has to be replaced.
                                                he quoted 4500 for the radiator..is this correct?..any one have an idea
                                                how much is OE indica dls radiator?

                                                secondly, some one in the group had said that a coolant flush is
                                                required..is this true??
                                                thirdly,all coolants have similar properties correct?...so mixing them
                                                shouldnt affect anything..water is just a stop gap measure..am i
                                                correct?
                                                also, my 75k servicing is due...wat should normally be checked/replaced
                                                during this service?

                                                thanks!

                                                Sudarsan
                                                Indica DLS 2002 dec 75k kms.
                                                16kmpl with a/c
                                                --
                                                Sudarsan Kumar

                                                “To be is to do” - Immanuel Kant

                                                “To do is to be” - Jean Paul Sartre

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