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RE: [immunologysupport] canceled ICSI cycle -- questions about conversion to "regular" TTC

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  • Eline Busck
    How annoying with the messed up monitoring!! I hope you get appropriate compensation.Are you doing anything to address your male factor issue? It seems strange
    Message 1 of 4 , May 1, 2011
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      How annoying with the messed up monitoring!! I hope you get appropriate compensation.
      Are you doing anything to address your male factor issue? It seems strange that you have to do all these meds because the sperm is less than perfect. Apparently, you can do a lot to improve sperm quality. For example, Foresight (http://www.foresight-preconception.org.uk/) has excellent results on this, by doing a range of things, including comprehensive supplement programmes (if he's low in e.g. zink and selenium or if he is full of lead or cadmium or something, his sperm won't be any good, and all this is easily corrected), by getting rid of smoking, drinking, hot baths, and mobile phones in trouser pockets, by improving diet, etc. All things that are good for you anyway, and in any case much more healthy than taking hormones! The foresight people are fine with working with people from outside the UK; my DH and I did the programme from Denmark and Norway (and it worked, in conjunction with immune treatments, IVF, dietary changes and healing; I'm now 27 weeks pregnant). All was done by mail and phone, no travel required.
      In your situation, I would make sure to address the male factor issue too so you don't do all this stimulation in vain!
      I hope someone more knowledgeable will answer your questions. Good luck!
      Eline


      To: immunologysupport@yahoogroups.com
      From: miss.moss@...
      Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:03:59 +0000
      Subject: [immunologysupport] canceled ICSI cycle -- questions about conversion to "regular" TTC

       
      I was stimming for my 3rd ICSI IVF cycle, but we ran into monitoring
      problems due to holidays here in France, & my doc didn't do any
      suppression & guess what, my LH surged. I am quite pissed off, but on
      the other hand I didn't have as many follicles as I've had before & many
      were not ready for removal (due to the messing up of monitoring), thus
      trying again another time sounds good to me! I did a trigger shot
      anyway, just because I wanted to ensure as much as possible comes out so
      I don't end up with cysts or some such problem for the next cycle.

      Background: I am almost 42, have endometriosis & fibroids, seem to react
      slowly in terms of lining growth & building up of progesterone, but I
      respond well to stims & ovulate well & have fine FSH/AMH. I am high ANA+
      & have some HLA sharing, but so far my NK cells are fine (even testing
      while sick) & TH1:TH2 is fine, etc etc. We are doing ICSI due to sperm
      problems (low count/motility/mobility, deformed shapes, fragmentation).
      We've had 2 chemical pregnancies & 1 very early miscarriage as results
      of our 4 transfers so far.

      I asked if we could convert to artificial insemination of some kind, but
      the doc said our sperm is not good enough. So we are trying to
      old-fashioned way... which has never worked in the past with my husband,
      but maybe with the extra stims & a little luck we will somehow
      miraculously beat the odds (I had 10 follies at last check of which 4 of
      which were 14-20mm before ovulating).

      The doc said to add in my usual luteal phase support of progesterone
      (200 mg pills used as vaginal suppositories) & that I probably didn't
      need estrogen as my lining was already at 8mm (but I'm going to add it
      anyway). I started the stim cycle with 8 mg Medrol (=10mg prednisone)
      daily & increased it to 16 mg (20mg) as soon as we saw the LH surge. I
      also have been on pentoxifylline (Trental / Torental) + vitamin E for
      about 2 months, this works against the endo & also against TNF (& is
      often used instead of Humira, particularly for endo patients). I haven't
      done any other immune treatment.

      Here are my questions finally, thanks for reading this far!
      * there has been some talk on here recently about when to add in
      progesterone. How long after trigger or LH surge (or change of your
      choice) should this be done? I think I need it, as my P4 levels are
      always low.
      * if I do use estrogen, when should this be stopped?
      * is there anybody else on pentoxifylline? I was told "stop when
      pregnant," but not sure if this should be stopped around implantation or
      what?
      * what is the reason you cannot use a hot pad after transfers, & does
      this hold true for ovulation/etc? Just curious as I have a lot of
      cramping with ovulation & wanted to know the science behind the usual
      comment of no hot pads after IVF stuff...

      Thanks for reading, hope you can give me some pointers. It's been years
      since I thought of "natural" TTC, & certainly then I never used luteal
      phase support or worried about hot pads 'n such!


    • Miss Moss
      Thanks for these comments, Eline. My husband did start taking vitamins/supplements after our 1st ICSI, & we did have much better sperm results, higher
      Message 2 of 4 , May 1, 2011
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        Thanks for these comments, Eline. My husband did start taking vitamins/supplements after our 1st ICSI, & we did have much better sperm results, higher fertilization rate & better embryos for the 2nd attempt. He doesn't smoke or take baths or do anything else bad for sperm, & we cut out a lot of drinking & caffeine & whatever else seemed like it might be hurting things. We eat pretty healthily (no prepared foods except bouillon cubes, ketchup sometimes, & an occasional can of pre-cooked beans or the like), & about half organic veggies/fruits.

        Certainly I'd like to avoid hormones, but we did TTC "naturally" for 2 years (with checking temps, then ovulation detection etc) with no luck -- 1 early miscarriage (chances are that was a bad embryo due to sperm/egg quality, but who knows), & all the rest of the months nothing happened. Maybe this was due to the untreated sperm, maybe it was my developing endometriosis, maybe my eggs are no good, maybe my immune system said no thanks...

        Our doc says that younger woman's eggs can overcome almost all sperm shortcomings, but as you get older this wears off. Althy my eggs look perfect, maybe they are crappy (no way to check). You cannot do ICSI without hormones, & ICSI seems to be our only chance unless we use donor sperm. Unfortunately France has over 1 year wait for sperm (2-3 years for eggs), & I in a year I will be too old for IVF coverage under insurance, so we would instead go abroad for donor embryos -- might as well optimize all chances! Luckily for us, if you get it pre-approved the French govt does cover most costs of 4 egg retrievals (& total of 6 transfers) before you turn 43, so our costs for even this canceled cycle were low -- we would never be able to do IVF otherwise. (The downside of the system is no donor anything unless you have a few years to wait, no genetic testing of eggs or embryos, no vitrification, no surrogacy...)

        Congrats on your pregnancy, glad it worked for you! Thanks for your ideas, I do appreciate it.

        Miss Moss

        On 01/05/11 13:57, Eline Busck wrote:
         

        How annoying with the messed up monitoring!! I hope you get appropriate compensation.
        Are you doing anything to address your male factor issue? It seems strange that you have to do all these meds because the sperm is less than perfect. Apparently, you can do a lot to improve sperm quality. For example, Foresight (http://www.foresight-preconception.org.uk/) has excellent results on this, by doing a range of things, including comprehensive supplement programmes (if he's low in e.g. zink and selenium or if he is full of lead or cadmium or something, his sperm won't be any good, and all this is easily corrected), by getting rid of smoking, drinking, hot baths, and mobile phones in trouser pockets, by improving diet, etc. All things that are good for you anyway, and in any case much more healthy than taking hormones! The foresight people are fine with working with people from outside the UK; my DH and I did the programme from Denmark and Norway (and it worked, in conjunction with immune treatments, IVF, dietary changes and healing; I'm now 27 weeks pregnant). All was done by mail and phone, no travel required.
        In your situation, I would make sure to address the male factor issue too so you don't do all this stimulation in vain!
        I hope someone more knowledgeable will answer your questions. Good luck!
        Eline

      • Eline Busck
        It sounds like you are doing everything right! I really hope the next one will come through for you. Good luck!Eline To: immunologysupport@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 4 , May 1, 2011
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          It sounds like you are doing everything right! I really hope the next one will come through for you. Good luck!
          Eline


          To: immunologysupport@yahoogroups.com
          From: miss.moss@...
          Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:41:56 +0200
          Subject: [immunologysupport] Re: canceled ICSI cycle -- questions about conversion to "regular" TTC

           
          Thanks for these comments, Eline. My husband did start taking vitamins/supplements after our 1st ICSI, & we did have much better sperm results, higher fertilization rate & better embryos for the 2nd attempt. He doesn't smoke or take baths or do anything else bad for sperm, & we cut out a lot of drinking & caffeine & whatever else seemed like it might be hurting things. We eat pretty healthily (no prepared foods except bouillon cubes, ketchup sometimes, & an occasional can of pre-cooked beans or the like), & about half organic veggies/fruits.

          Certainly I'd like to avoid hormones, but we did TTC "naturally" for 2 years (with checking temps, then ovulation detection etc) with no luck -- 1 early miscarriage (chances are that was a bad embryo due to sperm/egg quality, but who knows), & all the rest of the months nothing happened. Maybe this was due to the untreated sperm, maybe it was my developing endometriosis, maybe my eggs are no good, maybe my immune system said no thanks...

          Our doc says that younger woman's eggs can overcome almost all sperm shortcomings, but as you get older this wears off. Althy my eggs look perfect, maybe they are crappy (no way to check). You cannot do ICSI without hormones, & ICSI seems to be our only chance unless we use donor sperm. Unfortunately France has over 1 year wait for sperm (2-3 years for eggs), & I in a year I will be too old for IVF coverage under insurance, so we would instead go abroad for donor embryos -- might as well optimize all chances! Luckily for us, if you get it pre-approved the French govt does cover most costs of 4 egg retrievals (& total of 6 transfers) before you turn 43, so our costs for even this canceled cycle were low -- we would never be able to do IVF otherwise. (The downside of the system is no donor anything unless you have a few years to wait, no genetic testing of eggs or embryos, no vitrification, no surrogacy...)

          Congrats on your pregnancy, glad it worked for you! Thanks for your ideas, I do appreciate it.

          Miss Moss

          On 01/05/11 13:57, Eline Busck wrote:
           

          How annoying with the messed up monitoring!! I hope you get appropriate compensation.
          Are you doing anything to address your male factor issue? It seems strange that you have to do all these meds because the sperm is less than perfect. Apparently, you can do a lot to improve sperm quality. For example, Foresight (http://www.foresight-preconception.org.uk/) has excellent results on this, by doing a range of things, including comprehensive supplement programmes (if he's low in e.g. zink and selenium or if he is full of lead or cadmium or something, his sperm won't be any good, and all this is easily corrected), by getting rid of smoking, drinking, hot baths, and mobile phones in trouser pockets, by improving diet, etc. All things that are good for you anyway, and in any case much more healthy than taking hormones! The foresight people are fine with working with people from outside the UK; my DH and I did the programme from Denmark and Norway (and it worked, in conjunction with immune treatments, IVF, dietary changes and healing; I'm now 27 weeks pregnant). All was done by mail and phone, no travel required.
          In your situation, I would make sure to address the male factor issue too so you don't do all this stimulation in vain!
          I hope someone more knowledgeable will answer your questions. Good luck!
          Eline


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