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Re: [TwinCLinG] man problems

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  • Prakash Kailasa
    ... Different Is Good (TM) ... Debian is different not for the sake of being different, only when it makes better sense. I hope this is one of those cases. In
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 1, 2001
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      --- Suresh Ramasubramanian <suresh@...> wrote:
      > Prakash Kailasa [Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:16:16PM -0700]:
      > > Debian provides the 'man-db' package of which both 'man' and 'mandb'
      > > are part of. Both /usr/bin/man and /usr/bin/mandb are symlinks to
      > > /usr/lib/man-db/wrapper.
      >
      > Oh I see
      >
      > > I am not sure if RedHat and other distributions support this package.
      > > I checked my old RedHat partition (older than a year) and it didn't
      > > have it.
      >
      > I run slackware and Mandrake (which is anyway a redhat clone). They both
      > don't have it.
      >
      > > I am researching to find out why it has been implemented that way
      > > in Debian. Meanwhile, can the members using other distributions check
      > > their systems and post if this package exists on their systems?
      >
      > Debian seems to love doing things a bit differently perhaps? :)

      Different Is Good (TM)
      :-)

      Debian is different not for the sake of being different, only when
      it makes better sense. I hope this is one of those cases. In fact
      there is frequently a "Debian way" of doing things, which makes
      the life of users a bit easier. But then, I am hopelessly biased.

      Anyway, the man-db package doesn't seem to be Debian invention,
      but is based on the man_db software, that appears to be in
      existence (at least according to changelogs) since 1994,
      maintained by G. Wilford. The maintenance is now taken over
      by Debian developer Fabrizio Polacco.

      The mandb program helps create or update manual page index caches.
      This helps in faster retrieval of man pages.

      This seems to be similar to the windex database that exists on
      Solaris.

      I guess, this is Far More Than You Ever Wanted To Know about
      man pages, so I will shut up now.

      /prakash

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    • Nick Hill
      ... Now I hope you get what I meant by a bunch of symlinks strewn across the filesystem! ;) ... _no_ other distro has it IIRC. :) ... nuff
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 1, 2001
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        On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:16:16PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
        > Debian provides the 'man-db' package of which both 'man' and 'mandb'
        > are part of. Both /usr/bin/man and /usr/bin/mandb are symlinks to
        > /usr/lib/man-db/wrapper.
        >

        <flame>

        Now I hope you get what I meant by a bunch of symlinks strewn across
        the filesystem! ;)

        </flame>


        > I am not sure if RedHat and other distributions support this package.
        > I checked my old RedHat partition (older than a year) and it didn't
        > have it.
        >

        _no_ other distro has it IIRC. :)

        > I am researching to find out why it has been implemented that way
        > in Debian. Meanwhile, can the members using other distributions check
        > their systems and post if this package exists on their systems?
        >

        'nuff said. :D

        Nikhil.

        --
        Nikhil Shankar (nikhilwiz at yahoo.com)

        Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
        I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.
      • Prakash Kailasa
        ... What s a bunch ? two? What are symlinks really there for? ... It just means that the other vendors haven t seen the light yet. ... Sorry. You haven t said
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 1, 2001
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          --- Nick Hill <nikhilwiz@...> wrote:
          > On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 12:16:16PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
          > > Debian provides the 'man-db' package of which both 'man' and 'mandb'
          > > are part of. Both /usr/bin/man and /usr/bin/mandb are symlinks to
          > > /usr/lib/man-db/wrapper.
          > >
          >
          > <flame>
          >
          > Now I hope you get what I meant by a bunch of symlinks strewn across
          > the filesystem! ;)
          >
          > </flame>

          What's a "bunch"? two?

          What are symlinks really there for?

          > > I am not sure if RedHat and other distributions support this package.
          > > I checked my old RedHat partition (older than a year) and it didn't
          > > have it.
          > >
          >
          > _no_ other distro has it IIRC. :)

          It just means that the other vendors haven't seen the light yet.

          > > I am researching to find out why it has been implemented that way
          > > in Debian. Meanwhile, can the members using other distributions check
          > > their systems and post if this package exists on their systems?
          > >
          >
          > 'nuff said. :D

          Sorry. You haven't said anything.

          /prakash

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        • Nick Hill
          ... I have no patience to hunt each one down. :D ... I m glad that the oth distros dont see the light of getting themselves their share of man-db. is that
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 1, 2001
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            On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:26:40PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
            > Show me specific evidence of gratuitous usage of symlinks
            > in Debian, and then let's discuss it.
            >

            I have no patience to hunt each one down. :D

            > > If what debian is t'day is due to this
            > > "light" u're referring to, I'd prefer they never see the "light".
            > > Every distro caters to a specific need, even if its a niche. There's
            > > no one size fits all in the linux world. I cannot give a better
            > > example than the countless applications on [fm] released everyday,
            > > and the constant rumbling on sourceforge. "World Domination" is only
            > > part of the story.
            >
            > I don't see how is all this relevant to our present context
            > (the use of man-db package in debian). May I ask you to stick
            > to the context when you respond?
            >

            I'm glad that the oth' distros dont see the "light" of getting themselves
            their share of man-db. is that relevant enough? :)

            > Please do yourself a favor and check your earlier message to see who
            > "lit the flame".
            >

            Did i say anything which contradicts that? I just thought I'd continue
            the war. :)

            > 1. Server
            > [20 Oct 1999] Debian Used at eBay
            > http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19991020
            >
            > [12 Feb 1999] Debian based CUTE 2000 Server exhibited
            > http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990212
            >
            > [17 Sep 1999] Debian used by France Telecom
            > http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990917
            >
            > [01 Sep 1999] Franklin Institute Science Museum Chooses Linux
            > http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990901
            >

            The primary concern of a server is _security_. Slackware is the most
            secure Linux distro around, out of the box. grep thru bugtraq if in
            need of some solid proof. You could argue that if security were a primary
            concern, one could take refuge on OpenBSD. I've used the *BSDs, and there
            is considerably limited support for hardware, when compared to Linux. SMP
            is a big problem too.

            > 2. Desktop
            > This is an area where Debian could use some improvement. But
            > it's getting there, albeit slowly.
            >
            > 3. Embedded/Custom
            > [25 Jan 2001] Debian based Telemetry Box Distribution released
            > http://www.debian.org/News/2001/20010125
            >
            > [04 Dec 2000] Debian-based Microship
            > http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20001204a
            >
            > [23 Nov 2000] Debian/ARM runs on LART
            > http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20001123
            >
            > [26 Jun 2000] First Test Release of Embedded Debian Cross
            > Development Environments
            > http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20000626
            >
            > The Embedded Debian Project
            > http://www.emdebian.org
            >
            > <quote>
            > Goal
            >
            > The goal of the Embedded Debian Project is to make Debian
            > GNU/Linux a natural choice for embedded Linux.
            >
            > Debian's open development process, reputation for
            > reliability and security, powerful package manager, and
            > wide and growing range of supported architectures provide
            > a solid technical foundation for the realization of this
            > goal. We believe that Debian GNU/Linux is the best place
            > to concentrate embedded Linux development in such a way
            > as to create an embeddable Linux distribution that
            >
            > * Scales well from very large systems (O(100) megabytes)
            > down to very small systems (O(1) megabyte), i.e. from
            > the desktop down to the settop
            > * Is supported on a wide range of platforms
            > * Integrates embedded Linux related software from a
            > variety of sources (i.e. other distributions, projects)
            > * Is dynamic and does not suffer from software rot over time
            >
            > NOTE: This is an independent project, and is not formally
            > associated with Debian. We plan on working closely
            > with Debian, with the goal of our work eventually being
            > integrated into the mainstream.
            > </quote>
            >
            > Is this enough? Are you going to respond by saying that
            > Slackware can do all this and more? Good for you. I don't
            > care. I am not here to bash Slackware.
            >

            Dont you think that a package management system is too much of an
            overhead in an embedded system? I'd prefer something more raw at
            that level. upn?

            > Are you going to say, this is all "hype" and propaganda?
            > Be my guest.
            >

            no. I'm not as crazy as you make me out to be. :D

            > Well, that "someone" just might keep his ears "open", if you
            > happened to say something concrete.
            > ;-)
            >

            I tried to lay some concrete, but I'm almost out of cement. :P

            > I like debian for various reasons: some technical, some
            > philosophical. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
            > If I have touted debian's merits (admittedly my subjective
            > opinions), it does not mean that I am advocating against
            > other choices. Choice is good.
            >

            Boy! Am I glad you think this way. maybe there's more common
            ideas floating around in our brains, than what seems. :) Okay,
            I'll take the hint, and stop bashing debian. :)

            Nikhil.

            PS: Slackware r00lz! :D

            --
            Nikhil Shankar (nikhilwiz at yahoo.com)

            Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
            I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.
          • Prakash Kailasa
            ... The advantages of symlinks should be obvious to anyone who worked on large projects. Show me specific evidence of gratuitous usage of symlinks in Debian,
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 1, 2001
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              --- Nick Hill <nikhilwiz@...> wrote:
              > On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:43:30PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
              > > What's a "bunch"? two?
              > >
              > > What are symlinks really there for?
              >
              > beats me! why dont you enlighten us on this? :)

              The advantages of symlinks should be obvious to anyone who worked
              on large projects.

              Show me specific evidence of gratuitous usage of symlinks
              in Debian, and then let's discuss it.

              > > It just means that the other vendors haven't seen the light yet.
              >
              > And, what is the "light"?

              Chill out, nick. I was responding to your sarcastic comment
              in kind. The only thing missing in my comment was the smiley.

              > If what debian is t'day is due to this
              > "light" u're referring to, I'd prefer they never see the "light".
              > Every distro caters to a specific need, even if its a niche. There's
              > no one size fits all in the linux world. I cannot give a better
              > example than the countless applications on [fm] released everyday,
              > and the constant rumbling on sourceforge. "World Domination" is only
              > part of the story.

              I don't see how is all this relevant to our present context
              (the use of man-db package in debian). May I ask you to stick
              to the context when you respond?

              > The key is to make the computer work for you.
              > What works for everyone, might even give you a heartache, and vice
              > versa.

              I am glad you feel this way.
              > I really dont want to start this thread all over again, but since the
              > flame has been already lit, I'll just go on.

              Please do yourself a favor and check your earlier message to see who
              "lit the flame".

              > We can classify the different areas of use of Linux in this way:
              >
              > 1. Server
              > 2. Desktop
              > 3. Embedded/Custom
              >
              > for a Server, Slackware fits the bill. I'm not going to explain
              > it all again. I've already chalked out its advantages.
              >
              > for a Desktop, Mandrake has already displaced SuSE off the top
              > position. Most of the "desktop" improvements that we keep hearing
              > is for the ppl., who want their winduhz way of life on Linux.
              >
              > Where does debian fit in? for the developer, you say?

              1. Server
              [20 Oct 1999] Debian Used at eBay
              http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19991020

              [12 Feb 1999] Debian based CUTE 2000 Server exhibited
              http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990212

              [17 Sep 1999] Debian used by France Telecom
              http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990917

              [01 Sep 1999] Franklin Institute Science Museum Chooses Linux
              http://www.debian.org/News/1999/19990901

              2. Desktop
              This is an area where Debian could use some improvement. But
              it's getting there, albeit slowly.

              3. Embedded/Custom
              [25 Jan 2001] Debian based Telemetry Box Distribution released
              http://www.debian.org/News/2001/20010125

              [04 Dec 2000] Debian-based Microship
              http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20001204a

              [23 Nov 2000] Debian/ARM runs on LART
              http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20001123

              [26 Jun 2000] First Test Release of Embedded Debian Cross
              Development Environments
              http://www.debian.org/News/2000/20000626

              The Embedded Debian Project
              http://www.emdebian.org

              <quote>
              Goal

              The goal of the Embedded Debian Project is to make Debian
              GNU/Linux a natural choice for embedded Linux.

              Debian's open development process, reputation for
              reliability and security, powerful package manager, and
              wide and growing range of supported architectures provide
              a solid technical foundation for the realization of this
              goal. We believe that Debian GNU/Linux is the best place
              to concentrate embedded Linux development in such a way
              as to create an embeddable Linux distribution that

              * Scales well from very large systems (O(100) megabytes)
              down to very small systems (O(1) megabyte), i.e. from
              the desktop down to the settop
              * Is supported on a wide range of platforms
              * Integrates embedded Linux related software from a
              variety of sources (i.e. other distributions, projects)
              * Is dynamic and does not suffer from software rot over time

              NOTE: This is an independent project, and is not formally
              associated with Debian. We plan on working closely
              with Debian, with the goal of our work eventually being
              integrated into the mainstream.
              </quote>

              Is this enough? Are you going to respond by saying that
              Slackware can do all this and more? Good for you. I don't
              care. I am not here to bash Slackware.

              Are you going to say, this is all "hype" and propaganda?
              Be my guest.

              > what prevents
              > anyone from developing on any other distro? IMHO, nothing.

              > > Sorry. You haven't said anything.
              >
              > I've said what I wanted to. I guess someone has just decided to keep
              > his ears shut. :P

              Well, that "someone" just might keep his ears "open", if you
              happened to say something concrete.
              ;-)

              > Nikhil.

              I like debian for various reasons: some technical, some
              philosophical. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
              If I have touted debian's merits (admittedly my subjective
              opinions), it does not mean that I am advocating against
              other choices. Choice is good.

              /prakash

              __________________________________________________
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            • Prakash Kailasa
              ... Then, the least you could do is to _not_ keep repeating your claims , until you can get some patience. ... For a moment, let s assume that man-db is
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
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                --- Nick Hill <nikhilwiz@...> wrote:
                > On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 09:26:40PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
                > > Show me specific evidence of gratuitous usage of symlinks
                > > in Debian, and then let's discuss it.
                > >
                >
                > I have no patience to hunt each one down. :D

                Then, the least you could do is to _not_ keep repeating
                your "claims", until you can get some patience.

                > > > If what debian is t'day is due to this
                > > > "light" u're referring to, I'd prefer they never see the "light".
                > > > Every distro caters to a specific need, even if its a niche. There's
                > > > no one size fits all in the linux world. I cannot give a better
                > > > example than the countless applications on [fm] released everyday,
                > > > and the constant rumbling on sourceforge. "World Domination" is only
                > > > part of the story.
                > >
                > > I don't see how is all this relevant to our present context
                > > (the use of man-db package in debian). May I ask you to stick
                > > to the context when you respond?
                > >
                >
                > I'm glad that the oth' distros dont see the "light" of getting themselves
                > their share of man-db. is that relevant enough? :)

                For a moment, let's assume that man-db is superior to other similar
                software suites for managing man pages. (I am not saying it _is_
                better than others. I haven't compared it with others to pass
                judgement one way or the other.)

                Would you be glad even in this case?

                If I am not clear, my point is: withhold your judgements until you
                have enough information.

                > > 1. Server
                > > [...]
                >
                > The primary concern of a server is _security_. Slackware is the most
                > secure Linux distro around, out of the box. grep thru bugtraq if in
                > need of some solid proof. You could argue that if security were a primary
                > concern, one could take refuge on OpenBSD. I've used the *BSDs, and there
                > is considerably limited support for hardware, when compared to Linux. SMP
                > is a big problem too.

                If you are wondering why they didn't choose slackware, you answered your
                point yourself.

                The fact that not everybody is using BSD or its friends shows that
                factors other than security come into play too when choosing a server.
                Can you consider the possibility that maybe there was something that
                debian offers that other distributions didn't that compelled them
                to choose it.

                > > 3. Embedded/Custom
                > > [...]
                > > The Embedded Debian Project
                > > http://www.emdebian.org
                > >
                > > <quote>
                > > [...]
                > > Debian's open development process, reputation for
                > > reliability and security, powerful package manager, and
                > > wide and growing range of supported architectures provide
                > > a solid technical foundation ....
                > > [...]
                > > </quote>
                > >
                > > Is this enough? Are you going to respond by saying that
                > > Slackware can do all this and more? Good for you. I don't
                > > care. I am not here to bash Slackware.
                > >
                >
                > Dont you think that a package management system is too much of an
                > overhead in an embedded system? I'd prefer something more raw at
                > that level. upn?

                That's a valid question and merits a separate thread. My quote above
                was basically in response to your question about how/where debian "fits".
                I noticed that you didn't mention you were satisfied or not with my
                response ;-)

                That said, the quote from Embedian project shows there's more than
                package management about debian that appealed to them.

                > > Are you going to say, this is all "hype" and propaganda?
                > > Be my guest.
                > >
                >
                > no. I'm not as crazy as you make me out to be. :D

                I didn't say or mean that you were "crazy". Far from it.
                Perhaps a bit ignorant (as we all are in different respects),
                perhaps a bit over-enthusiastic (due to your youthful exuberance).
                Ignorance can be cured. And, enthusiasm is a good trait to have.

                More than once in your earlier messages, you did say that debian
                is more hype than technically sound. Ok, I concede that you didn't
                use the word "propaganda".

                > > Well, that "someone" just might keep his ears "open", if you
                > > happened to say something concrete.
                > > ;-)
                > >
                >
                > I tried to lay some concrete, but I'm almost out of cement. :P

                I'll wait until you go get some cement. ;-)

                > > I like debian for various reasons: some technical, some
                > > philosophical. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.
                > > If I have touted debian's merits (admittedly my subjective
                > > opinions), it does not mean that I am advocating against
                > > other choices. Choice is good.
                > >
                >
                > Boy! Am I glad you think this way. maybe there's more common
                > ideas floating around in our brains, than what seems. :) Okay,
                > I'll take the hint, and stop bashing debian. :)

                Constructive criticism using reasonable arguments is always
                welcome. Pointless bashing (just for the sake of it) -- I have
                no use for it.

                > Nikhil.
                >
                > PS: Slackware r00lz! :D

                :-)

                /prakash

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              • Nick Hill
                ... /me watches Freedom of speech go into the dust! :) ... man-db _is_ man. there is absolutely no difference between the two. The wrapper thingy is around
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
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                  On Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 06:58:35AM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
                  > Then, the least you could do is to _not_ keep repeating
                  > your "claims", until you can get some patience.
                  >

                  /me watches "Freedom of speech" go into the dust! :)

                  > For a moment, let's assume that man-db is superior to other similar
                  > software suites for managing man pages. (I am not saying it _is_
                  > better than others. I haven't compared it with others to pass
                  > judgement one way or the other.)
                  >
                  > Would you be glad even in this case?
                  >
                  > If I am not clear, my point is: withhold your judgements until you
                  > have enough information.
                  >

                  man-db _is_ man. there is absolutely no difference between the two.
                  The wrapper thingy is around as a security fix for dropping privileges
                  in man, for some function which is too lame to check on its parameters.
                  Interestingly, the exploit worx on the testing (beta) version of slackware,
                  but not on Slackware-7.1. When, an exploit is found in an app, I prefer
                  patching the app, instead of writing a wrapper which just drops the
                  privileges.

                  > If you are wondering why they didn't choose slackware, you answered your
                  > point yourself.
                  >
                  > The fact that not everybody is using BSD or its friends shows that
                  > factors other than security come into play too when choosing a server.
                  > Can you consider the possibility that maybe there was something that
                  > debian offers that other distributions didn't that compelled them
                  > to choose it.
                  >

                  perhaps you could enlighten me on the other aspects? package management?
                  when an exploit is found - the patch has to be applied to the source.
                  are you going to wait till <insert-distro-owner-here> makes you a package?
                  I like getting the source, applying a patch, and be done with it. opinions
                  vary tho.

                  > That's a valid question and merits a separate thread. My quote above
                  > was basically in response to your question about how/where debian "fits".
                  > I noticed that you didn't mention you were satisfied or not with my
                  > response ;-)
                  >

                  I am generally not satisfied with an answer, till it provides something
                  better than what I already have. Package management is a user thing.
                  Going by the talk that upn gave, and my own research into embedded linux,
                  its something in which you have to fill it, shut it, and forget it (tm).
                  Linux doesn't get more raw than Slackware, when it comes to strike a
                  balance between ease of use, completeness, and utility.

                  > That said, the quote from Embedian project shows there's more than
                  > package management about debian that appealed to them.
                  >

                  www.emdebian.org seems to be as dead as king tutakhamen. :)

                  > I didn't say or mean that you were "crazy". Far from it.
                  > Perhaps a bit ignorant (as we all are in different respects),
                  > perhaps a bit over-enthusiastic (due to your youthful exuberance).
                  > Ignorance can be cured. And, enthusiasm is a good trait to have.
                  >

                  Ignorance is bliss. :D

                  > More than once in your earlier messages, you did say that debian
                  > is more hype than technically sound. Ok, I concede that you didn't
                  > use the word "propaganda".
                  >

                  Incidentally, on the lighter side, there's is a link to "Propoganda"
                  on slackware.com :)

                  > I'll wait until you go get some cement. ;-)
                  >

                  i contacted a cement company.. they sent me a sample. I've used some
                  of it t'day... its called "The Internet Cement". PS: google r00lz. :)

                  > Constructive criticism using reasonable arguments is always
                  > welcome. Pointless bashing (just for the sake of it) -- I have
                  > no use for it.
                  >

                  Ever heard of "trolling"? :D

                  Nikhil.

                  > > PS: Slackware r00lz! :D

                  --
                  Nikhil Shankar (nikhilwiz at yahoo.com)

                  Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
                  I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.
                • Suresh Ramasubramanian
                  ... The wrapper can have a few other uses, as Prakash pointed out :) Yeah, Installing a wrapper just to cover-up a security hole is like using band aid - and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Nick Hill [Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:39:07AM +0530]:

                    > man-db _is_ man. there is absolutely no difference between the two.
                    > The wrapper thingy is around as a security fix for dropping privileges
                    > in man, for some function which is too lame to check on its parameters.

                    The wrapper can have a few other uses, as Prakash pointed out :) Yeah,
                    Installing a wrapper just to cover-up a security hole is like using band aid
                    - and debian doesn't seem like a band-aid distro, despite the other hassles
                    some of us (tm) have with it :)

                    > perhaps you could enlighten me on the other aspects? package management?
                    > when an exploit is found - the patch has to be applied to the source.
                    > are you going to wait till <insert-distro-owner-here> makes you a package?

                    Which is "too late" sometimes. Debian is fairly immune to that though, they
                    prefer taking an older version and patching it to hell and back rather than
                    staying current with the app.

                    > I like getting the source, applying a patch, and be done with it. opinions
                    > vary tho.
                    >
                    > > That's a valid question and merits a separate thread. My quote above
                    > > was basically in response to your question about how/where debian "fits".
                    > > I noticed that you didn't mention you were satisfied or not with my
                    > > response ;-)

                    And no, downloading an SRPM (or a debian source package) and compiling it
                    doesn't give me enough flexiblity (version control, apps which stay in
                    /usr/local instead of getting spread across half a dozen directories ...).

                    I dont particularly care about the rpmdb (as I use mandrake / redhat on
                    several machines) being broken. I prefer to keep track of whatever apps /
                    kernels I need most.

                    > Linux doesn't get more raw than Slackware, when it comes to strike a
                    > balance between ease of use, completeness, and utility.

                    right

                    > Ever heard of "trolling"? :D

                    Hey man, that's not a bad idea. FWIW, in some of the Arun Sharma v/s
                    everybody else battles on lig, I almost feel tempted to use this little
                    ascii-art sign (quite popular on another group I read)

                    +--------------------+
                    | PLEASE DO NOT FEED |
                    | THE TROLL. |
                    | THANK YOU. |
                    | -- The Management |
                    +--------------------+
                    | |
                    | | O
                    o | | |
                    __\|/_=\| |/=_\|/_____
                    (c) Gym Z Quirk

                    > > > PS: Slackware r00lz! :D

                    I rather prefer the line in your .sig to the $distro r00lz stuff ...

                    > Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
                    > I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.

                    --
                    Suresh Ramasubramanian + suresh@...
                    Friday@... + http://kcircle.com
                    "If a computer can't directly address all the RAM you can use, it's just a toy."
                    -- anonymous comp.sys.amiga posting, non-sequitir
                  • Nick Hill
                    Ahh! The god of all, ideal of most has finally spoken! /me showers flowers on SSR! :D ... I still haven t reached Arun Sharma s BSD-troll level yet, but I m
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ahh! The god of all, ideal of most has finally spoken!

                      /me showers flowers on SSR! :D

                      On Tue, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:33:13AM +0530, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
                      > Hey man, that's not a bad idea. FWIW, in some of the Arun Sharma v/s
                      > everybody else battles on lig, I almost feel tempted to use this little
                      > ascii-art sign (quite popular on another group I read)
                      >
                      > +--------------------+
                      > | PLEASE DO NOT FEED |
                      > | THE TROLL. |
                      > | THANK YOU. |
                      > | -- The Management |
                      > +--------------------+
                      > | |
                      > | | O
                      > o | | |
                      > __\|/_=\| |/=_\|/_____
                      > (c) Gym Z Quirk
                      >

                      I still haven't reached Arun Sharma's BSD-troll level yet, but I'm
                      getting there! watch this space! :P

                      > > > > PS: Slackware r00lz! :D
                      >
                      > I rather prefer the line in your .sig to the $distro r00lz stuff ...
                      >

                      You dont get the Complete Troll (tm) effect without it. The .sig is
                      for the non-troll-friendly ppl. :D

                      Nikhil.

                      --
                      Nikhil Shankar (nikhilwiz at yahoo.com)

                      Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
                      I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.
                    • Prakash Kailasa
                      ... Does Freedom of speech include raising recurring claims that you can t (or won t, on account of no patience) without any basis? ... man-db is man + a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- Nick Hill <nikhilwiz@...> wrote:
                        > On Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 06:58:35AM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
                        > > Then, the least you could do is to _not_ keep repeating
                        > > your "claims", until you can get some patience.
                        > >
                        >
                        > /me watches "Freedom of speech" go into the dust! :)

                        Does "Freedom of speech" include raising recurring claims
                        that you can't (or won't, on account of no patience)
                        without any basis?

                        > > For a moment, let's assume that man-db is superior to other similar
                        > > software suites for managing man pages. (I am not saying it _is_
                        > > better than others. I haven't compared it with others to pass
                        > > judgement one way or the other.)
                        > >
                        > > Would you be glad even in this case?
                        > >
                        > > If I am not clear, my point is: withhold your judgements until you
                        > > have enough information.
                        > >
                        >
                        > man-db _is_ man. there is absolutely no difference between the two.

                        man-db is man + a bunch of other programs to make man page
                        maintenance easier and the retrieval faster. As is usually
                        the case with debian, all the packages work together in
                        an integrated manner and are aware of packages like man-db.

                        > > If you are wondering why they didn't choose slackware, you answered your
                        > > point yourself.
                        > >
                        > > The fact that not everybody is using BSD or its friends shows that
                        > > factors other than security come into play too when choosing a server.
                        > > Can you consider the possibility that maybe there was something that
                        > > debian offers that other distributions didn't that compelled them
                        > > to choose it.
                        >
                        > perhaps you could enlighten me on the other aspects? package management?

                        Ok. I'll repeat the quote from my earlier message again.

                        > > <quote>
                        > > [...]
                        > > Debian's open development process, reputation for
                        > > reliability and security, powerful package manager, and
                        > > wide and growing range of supported architectures provide
                        > > a solid technical foundation ....
                        > > [...]
                        > > </quote>

                        Do you see only package management in the above list?

                        > when an exploit is found - the patch has to be applied to the source.
                        > are you going to wait till <insert-distro-owner-here> makes you a package?

                        As suresh has already pointed out, debian does not just
                        make patches to the latest and greatest sources (which are
                        usually part of the "unstable" track), but all backports
                        the fixes to the "stable" and "testing" tracks.

                        If you are running "unstable" or "testing" it is part
                        of your regular updates. If you are running "stable",
                        which you should on a production box, keeping up-to-date
                        with security fixes is as easy as adding one line to
                        /etc/apt/sources.list (one time addition only) and
                        frequently updating your system with apt-get.

                        > www.emdebian.org seems to be as dead as king tutakhamen. :)

                        The website may be not accessible for whatever reasons,
                        but the work seems to be going on, albeit slow.

                        http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/msg.php3?msg_id=5107552&list=3522

                        And, even "mummies" have a way of returning ;-)

                        >
                        > > I didn't say or mean that you were "crazy". Far from it.
                        > > Perhaps a bit ignorant (as we all are in different respects),
                        > > perhaps a bit over-enthusiastic (due to your youthful exuberance).
                        > > Ignorance can be cured. And, enthusiasm is a good trait to have.
                        > >
                        >
                        > Ignorance is bliss. :D

                        "... where ignorance is bliss,
                        'T is folly to be wise."

                        /prakash



                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Suresh Ramasubramanian
                        ... Please, not Jasmine, though. I m allergic to the smell - and my cousin s wedding is coming up next week, which means I ll have to spend three whole days
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 4, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          * Nick Hill <05/06/01 09:58 +0530>:

                          > Ahh! The god of all, ideal of most has finally spoken!
                          > /me showers flowers on SSR! :D

                          Please, not Jasmine, though. I'm allergic to the smell - and my cousin's
                          wedding is coming up next week, which means I'll have to spend three whole
                          days smelling the damned stuff ... so _dont_ remind me.

                          > I still haven't reached Arun Sharma's BSD-troll level yet, but I'm
                          > getting there! watch this space! :P

                          *groan*

                          > > > > > PS: Slackware r00lz! :D
                          > > I rather prefer the line in your .sig to the $distro r00lz stuff ...
                          > You dont get the Complete Troll (tm) effect without it. The .sig is
                          > for the non-troll-friendly ppl. :D

                          Yeah, sure.

                          --
                          Suresh Ramasubramanian + suresh@...
                          Friday@... + http://kcircle.com
                          Genius is the talent of a person who is dead.
                        • Prakash Kailasa
                          ... I don t wish to nitpick on this, but I haven t always got the impression that you always indicated it as purely personal opinion. Even so, I have tried
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 6, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- Nick Hill <nikhilwiz@...> wrote:
                            > On Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 09:59:23PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
                            > > Does "Freedom of speech" include raising recurring claims
                            > > that you can't (or won't, on account of no patience)
                            > > without any basis?
                            > >
                            >
                            > s/claims/opinions. so there. I've always indicated that whatever I
                            > express, is purely my opinion of things. That's my freedom of speech.

                            I don't wish to nitpick on this, but I haven't always got
                            the impression that you always indicated it as "purely"
                            personal opinion. Even so, I have tried to respond to only
                            those of your comments that seemed blanket statements about
                            debian without backing them up with evidence. Just thought
                            I would provide a counterpoint to balance your viewpoint.

                            Anyhow, who am I to deny your freedom of speech? This is
                            a public list.

                            > > man-db is man + a bunch of other programs to make man page
                            > > maintenance easier and the retrieval faster. As is usually
                            > > the case with debian, all the packages work together in
                            > > an integrated manner and are aware of packages like man-db.
                            >
                            > the only thing i notice is a wrapper, and some database updating
                            > tools, perhaps for a cache in /var/cache/man. the cache just stores
                            > cats of all the man pages - stuff which reminds me of /usr/man/preformatted

                            You see what you want to see.

                            > > > > <quote>
                            > > > > [...]
                            > > > > Debian's open development process, reputation for
                            > > > > reliability and security, powerful package manager, and
                            > > > > wide and growing range of supported architectures provide
                            > > > > a solid technical foundation ....
                            > > > > [...]
                            > > > > </quote>
                            > >
                            > > Do you see only package management in the above list?
                            > >
                            >
                            > I can say the same for slackware too.

                            - open development process

                            Debian: Anyone can become a debian developer by
                            a well-defined process. The development process
                            is transparent. Everything is out in the open
                            for people like me who are not debian developers
                            (http://www.debian.org/devel/, http://lists.debian.org etc.)

                            Slackware [I am quoting from one of your earlier messages]:

                            nick> It's _not_ an open development process. Patrick
                            nick> Volkerding is god, and _only_ he makes all the
                            nick> decisions. I have no problem with that. suggestions
                            nick> are given in the slackware forums. some are accepted,
                            nick> some are rejected. He now has a few ppl. to help
                            nick> him out, so its their decision too which plays a
                            nick> good part.

                            - Reputation for reliability and security

                            I am aware of slackware's "reputation" of being the most
                            secure of all popular linux distributions. However,
                            I reserve any conclusions in this aspect pending my own
                            further research.

                            - Wide and growing range of supported architectures

                            Debian (source: http://www.debian.org/ports/): I can see
                            up to 11 different architectures (not including intel x86)
                            to which debian is being ported.

                            Slackware (source: http://slackware.com/ports/): This
                            page reports two non-intel x86 architectures (Alpha and
                            Sparc). I remember one of your earlier messages mention
                            ppc related mailing list, although it isn't listed on
                            this page.

                            > its just that i dont like the overhead of package management.

                            I think I have gathered that much after all these
                            discussions ;-) It might be ok for super-hackers like
                            you, but for us mere mortals good package management has
                            its value.

                            > > As suresh has already pointed out, debian does not just
                            > > make patches to the latest and greatest sources (which are
                            > > usually part of the "unstable" track), but all backports
                            > > the fixes to the "stable" and "testing" tracks.
                            > >
                            > > If you are running "unstable" or "testing" it is part
                            > > of your regular updates. If you are running "stable",
                            > > which you should on a production box, keeping up-to-date
                            > > with security fixes is as easy as adding one line to
                            > > /etc/apt/sources.list (one time addition only) and
                            > > frequently updating your system with apt-get.
                            > >
                            >
                            > you have to agree that me patching my own source, and updating my
                            > stuff, is waaay faster than me waiting for the package maintainer
                            > to update it, make a package, and then me downloading it.

                            Most of the debian security fixes are made available at
                            most a couple of days (sometimes within hours) of being
                            reported. I think I'd prefer to wait, unless it is a really
                            critical one.

                            > > The website may be not accessible for whatever reasons,
                            > > but the work seems to be going on, albeit slow.
                            > >
                            > > http://www.geocrawler.com/mail/msg.php3?msg_id=5107552&list=3522
                            > >
                            > > And, even "mummies" have a way of returning ;-)
                            >
                            > kinda weird that lists.debian.org is down. emdebian.org is down. ;)

                            Oh, now you have added lists.debian.org to your list of
                            the "dead". First of all just because of website is down
                            doesn't mean the project is dead. Second, lists.debian.org
                            is only one of the many debian web sites, which provides
                            easy access to the archives of debian's many mailing
                            lists. It may be temporarily down, but the mailing lists
                            themselves are thriving, thank you very much.

                            > I'll still maintain that package management, which _is_ an overhead,
                            > doesn't suit something which has to be embedded. Unless, you're having
                            > a harddrive or someother media out there, which can be updated in
                            > realtime, having a package management system doesn't make sense.
                            >
                            > > "... where ignorance is bliss,
                            > > 'T is folly to be wise."
                            > >
                            >
                            > so sue me! :P

                            Nah. I don't have to ;-)

                            > Nikhil.

                            /prakash


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                          • Nick Hill
                            ... I ll think of putting a disclaimer in my .sig from now on, just to help some people out. ;P ... Why dont you make me see something else, if I ve missed out
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 7, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:59:37PM -0700, Prakash Kailasa wrote:
                              > I don't wish to nitpick on this, but I haven't always got
                              > the impression that you always indicated it as "purely"
                              > personal opinion. Even so, I have tried to respond to only
                              > those of your comments that seemed blanket statements about
                              > debian without backing them up with evidence. Just thought
                              > I would provide a counterpoint to balance your viewpoint.
                              >

                              I'll think of putting a disclaimer in my .sig from now on,
                              just to help some people out. ;P

                              > > > man-db is man + a bunch of other programs to make man page
                              > > > maintenance easier and the retrieval faster. As is usually
                              > > > the case with debian, all the packages work together in
                              > > > an integrated manner and are aware of packages like man-db.
                              > >
                              > > the only thing i notice is a wrapper, and some database updating
                              > > tools, perhaps for a cache in /var/cache/man. the cache just stores
                              > > cats of all the man pages - stuff which reminds me of /usr/man/preformatted
                              >
                              > You see what you want to see.
                              >

                              Why dont you make me see something else, if I've missed out on anything?
                              ... as you've always been doing. :)

                              > - open development process
                              >
                              > Debian: Anyone can become a debian developer by
                              > a well-defined process. The development process
                              > is transparent. Everything is out in the open
                              > for people like me who are not debian developers
                              > (http://www.debian.org/devel/, http://lists.debian.org etc.)
                              >
                              > Slackware [I am quoting from one of your earlier messages]:
                              >
                              > nick> It's _not_ an open development process. Patrick
                              > nick> Volkerding is god, and _only_ he makes all the
                              > nick> decisions. I have no problem with that. suggestions
                              > nick> are given in the slackware forums. some are accepted,
                              > nick> some are rejected. He now has a few ppl. to help
                              > nick> him out, so its their decision too which plays a
                              > nick> good part.
                              >

                              any idea what would've happened to the Linux kernel, hadn't
                              Linus been the only guy who decides in which direction Linux
                              goes? some BSD-trolls think this is a Bad Thing (tm). FreeBSD
                              development process goes on the same lines of what you describe
                              but there _are_ a specific set of CVS commiters, who decide
                              what to do. You can throw your ideas/patches at them on the
                              mailing list and everyone comes down on it just like LKML,
                              but its the main commiters that get to have the final say.
                              I agree they're not as brain-dead as Linus sometimes is, but
                              still. :) Slackware also has a good team in Patrick, David, et
                              al. Ideas are thrown on the slackware-devel forum, and ideas
                              are taken, if they look good. You need a specific person to
                              give a project its much needed vision, and which way it wants
                              to go. If people like that vision, they'll use it.

                              > - Wide and growing range of supported architectures
                              >
                              > Debian (source: http://www.debian.org/ports/): I can see
                              > up to 11 different architectures (not including intel x86)
                              > to which debian is being ported.
                              >
                              > Slackware (source: http://slackware.com/ports/): This
                              > page reports two non-intel x86 architectures (Alpha and
                              > Sparc). I remember one of your earlier messages mention
                              > ppc related mailing list, although it isn't listed on
                              > this page.
                              >

                              I will agree on this one. On a lighter side, is it really a big deal
                              applying a few patches and cross-compiling stuff? Maybe the Slackware
                              team finds the job a bit too boring. ;)

                              Thinking seriously, maybe there never was much of an interest shown
                              in the other architectures. Most Slackware users use it for its
                              performance. And, those users seem to be more interested in making
                              it run on the Alpha or a SPARC. Tho, I find it very disconcerting that
                              on http://www.debian.org/ports/ sparc and sparc64 are listed as
                              different targets. slackware-sparc runs on both. the only extra
                              entries i see on debian's site, which are ready are m68k, ppc, and arm,
                              which slackware doesn't have, as of now.

                              > I think I have gathered that much after all these
                              > discussions ;-) It might be ok for super-hackers like
                              > you, but for us mere mortals good package management has
                              > its value.
                              >

                              I dont look at lack of package management as something for super-hackers.
                              I look at it as a cross-distro enabler for a package. If i make an
                              RPM of my package, i need an RPM enabled distro. ditto with other
                              package management systems. I dont have that problems with slackware.
                              Unless some cross-distro package management system comes out,
                              I'll stick to the "lack" of package management in Slackware.

                              > Most of the debian security fixes are made available at
                              > most a couple of days (sometimes within hours) of being
                              > reported. I think I'd prefer to wait, unless it is a really
                              > critical one.

                              tell that to any sysadmin. :) I know I dont give a damn for
                              sysadmins, and I hate sysadmin'ing, when you're running a
                              24x7 server, you'll know what i mean.

                              > Oh, now you have added lists.debian.org to your list of
                              > the "dead". First of all just because of website is down
                              > doesn't mean the project is dead. Second, lists.debian.org
                              > is only one of the many debian web sites, which provides
                              > easy access to the archives of debian's many mailing
                              > lists. It may be temporarily down, but the mailing lists
                              > themselves are thriving, thank you very much.
                              >

                              That wasn't the intention at all. :) I was just laying my
                              thoughts at that moment down.. ;) thoz thoughts arrived
                              at the time when i wanted to just skim thru the debian
                              lists.. :)

                              Nikhil.

                              --
                              Nikhil Shankar (nikhilwiz at yahoo.com)

                              Slackware Linux http://www.slackware.com/
                              I guess that's why people care: Some distributions have character.
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