Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TwinCLinG] PUG in Hyderabad?

Expand Messages
  • V.Krishnakumar
    On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:43:18 -0800 (PST), gc ... Who s Bruce ? Bruce Eckel ? ... (still thinking about how to reply to this ...) ...
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:43:18 -0800 (PST), "gc" <chandan820@...>
      said:
      > This message only has an HTML part -- this is a text generated
      > representation
      >
      >
      > Hi,
      > listen krishna..
      > I sincerely advice u.. dont code in something
      > because bruce wants u to...
      Who's Bruce ? Bruce Eckel ?

      > He is not some turing, stallman, trovalds, e.t.c.,
      > Try to learn something... if u really think it wud
      > help u in u'r career.. or in satisfying u'rself.
      (still thinking about how to reply to this ...)

      > BTW.. Both of them are great. It wud be very very very
      > easy to code in python.. since ur already aware of
      > Java ....
      > Python was extended and then there was jpython and
      > newly now.. there is Jython for java coders.
      Was this message mistakenly addressed to me ? I stopped using Python
      and Java. Objective-C has all the features of Java and even compiles to
      native code.
      Object Pascal comes close too (with lightning fast compilers.) . Using
      interfaces and
      nested classes for event handling is a pain when the above said languages
      provide
      bound method pointers (aka delegates).

      I dont have anything against Python - its just that Ruby is more complete
      (coroutines + continuations)
      and Matz is working on a faster interpreter.

      Ease of use is not the only criteria - runtime performance matters too.

      > hope i helped u.
      hmmm.

      cheers,
      -Krish

      --
      "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
      Geniuses remove it"
      - Alan Perlis

      --
      http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be
    • V.Krishnakumar
      ... True. It is good that the lisp community has finally woken up and batteries are being added at a fast pace. ... simplicity relative to what ? ...
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 02:04:45 +0530, "suman" <mansu@...> said:
        > i agree wth what gc has said but the real reason why people love java
        > more than python and the reason why i like java more than python is
        > the
        > amount of tooling support available.
        True. It is good that the lisp community has finally woken up and
        "batteries"
        are being added at a fast pace.

        > But i shud argue the tooling support for java is great not just
        > because
        > it is from "Sun" but the reason i strongly feel is the simplicity of
        > the
        > language design.
        simplicity relative to what ?

        > I definately agree that this is not for geeks who wud argue that
        > clicking and dragging things around makes a programminer more "Stupid"
        > and some ppl incl me even feel that they are not programmers at all.
        > But the truth is in a bussiness environment where if u have 2 changes
        > to
        > make each day(a company like dell has that many changes) then i would
        > say that this tooling really helps.
        "Tooling", "changes" are too general. What kinda changes ? requirement
        changes, policy changes ?

        What does tooling mean ? development environment ?, support libraries ?

        If tooling includes support libraries then some python is probably ahead
        of java.
        If you are talking about IDEs then there are good ones for python too
        (just
        could'nt resist mentioning EMACS here. ;) )

        > But from what i have read and what i know i feel that python lacks in
        > most of the departments because it still thinks that programmer will
        > type the program rather than generate it.
        I have not read "Code Generation in Action" book. I'm pretty sure that a
        good
        Python programmer can translate the programs in that book in a day or
        two.

        another plug: Lisp has the best support for writing programmable
        programs. (thx to its uniform
        syntax).

        > also can the op highlight the reasons why he has choosen python over
        > other languages?coz IMO if u can program in C++ very well with
        > some(infact a lot) of guidelines u can produce programs of the
        > highest
        > quality.
        Really ? Modern C++ code taxes the compiler so much that only a few can
        compile them.

        Have you tried any language from the ML family ? The beat the hell out of
        C++.

        > IMHO that was the assumption which other language designers took for
        > granted and which James gosling didnot .
        My Java history tells me that James Gosling designed Java for use with
        settop boxes. (I may be wrong - history, geography and civics are not my
        fav.)

        cheers,
        -Krish
        --
        "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
        Geniuses remove it"
        - Alan Perlis

        --
        http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class
      • suman
        hi ... we are talking abt language design not about language features. ... ya i do agree 200% that they want to convince me to buy XDE . but it helps many a
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          hi

          > Suman, though I am a bit partial to Java, I have to warn you that
          >"language x is better because it has feature y" arguments go nowhere.
          >
          >
          we are talking abt language design not about language features.

          >Everybody thinks their own favorite is the greatest. Trying to convince
          >others is mostly futile, because they will think of some other feature z
          >which is not in your favorite language. I know there are people who love
          >Perl dearly though I recoil in horror whenever I see it. It's natural.
          >You use the tool that is best fit for the problem at hand. If it solves
          >the problem wonderfully, you think it's the greatest thing ever happened
          >to earth :), But it may fare woefully for a different problem set.
          >
          >
          >
          >>after i attended the "one day" IBM advertisement last week at Taj
          >>Krishna.To cut the long story short i feel that tooling really helps
          >>when u have a well designed application.But to design that..... we
          >>know
          >>who are needed ;).But tooling does really increase efficiency in a lot
          >>
          >>
          >
          > Personally, I like hand-coding rather than drag-and-dropping, and IBM
          >likes to you think tooling is great because it wants to sell its XDE to
          >you, the developer hopefully ;) Well, that's just my opinion.
          >
          >
          >
          ya i do agree 200% that they want to convince me to buy XDE .
          but it helps many a times when all u have to do is maintainance and
          small changes ( i do not work for IBM )

          >>of ways like evelauating the success of a method even before it is
          >>built
          >>
          >>
          >
          > How can we do that?
          >
          >
          >
          as i said by simulation.
          Java is by far the best language next only to C++ for the simulation
          comunity because ppl in simulation community needed a language which is
          more reusable and is more toolable and the reason behind this is it's
          simplicity.

          >>using simulation,reduces coding bugs,reduces the need for
          >>typing,"enforces" good design guidelines which ultimately helps in
          >>better software.
          >>
          >>
          >
          > Good design guidelines should come from the developer, out of his
          >experience and feel for the project. A tool can only indent your code in
          >a pretty way, and may be highlight missing braces. Good Design is much,
          >much more than that.
          >
          >
          >
          I agree to that but if there are some nifty features in IDE's these days.
          Only java supports refactoring easily than other languages coz of single
          inheritance tree and lack of multiple inheritence. I haven't seen any
          python tools that does code refactoring one reason is that python is not
          a strict OO language where as java is.
          is there smthg like quick fix feature in eclipse for pyhton.
          IMO java hs few rules to remember.

          >>also can the op highlight the reasons why he has choosen python over
          >>other languages?
          >>
          >>
          >
          > Here's a link, go there, and I think most of your questions about
          >Python and it's relevance to other languages will be answered:
          >
          >http://www.artima.com/articles/index.jsp?topic=python
          >
          >
          also go thru stroustrup's blog for more insights for ore info on this.
          btw i do not intend to start a flame war here.
          i just want to make a point.
          -suman
        • suman
          ... does performance matter these days unless it is too bad? just curious on this:D -suman
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            V.Krishnakumar wrote:

            >On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 06:43:18 -0800 (PST), "gc" <chandan820@...>
            >said:
            >
            >
            >>This message only has an HTML part -- this is a text generated
            >>representation
            >>
            >>
            >> Hi,
            >> listen krishna..
            >> I sincerely advice u.. dont code in something
            >> because bruce wants u to...
            >>
            >>
            >Who's Bruce ? Bruce Eckel ?
            >
            >
            >
            >> He is not some turing, stallman, trovalds, e.t.c.,
            >> Try to learn something... if u really think it wud
            >> help u in u'r career.. or in satisfying u'rself.
            >>
            >>
            >(still thinking about how to reply to this ...)
            >
            >
            >
            >> BTW.. Both of them are great. It wud be very very very
            >> easy to code in python.. since ur already aware of
            >> Java ....
            >> Python was extended and then there was jpython and
            >> newly now.. there is Jython for java coders.
            >>
            >>
            >Was this message mistakenly addressed to me ? I stopped using Python
            >and Java. Objective-C has all the features of Java and even compiles to
            >native code.
            >Object Pascal comes close too (with lightning fast compilers.) . Using
            >interfaces and
            >nested classes for event handling is a pain when the above said languages
            >provide
            >bound method pointers (aka delegates).
            >
            >I dont have anything against Python - its just that Ruby is more complete
            >(coroutines + continuations)
            >and Matz is working on a faster interpreter.
            >
            >Ease of use is not the only criteria - runtime performance matters too.
            >
            >
            does performance matter these days unless it is too bad?
            just curious on this:D
            -suman

            >--
            > "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
            > Geniuses remove it"
            > - Alan Perlis
            >
            >
            >
          • suman
            ... isn t it too late for lisp? unless some one writes smthg like parrot using lisp ;) ... simple relative to other languages. ... it means a development
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >True. It is good that the lisp community has finally woken up and
              >"batteries"
              >are being added at a fast pace.
              >
              >
              >
              isn't it too late for lisp?
              unless some one writes smthg like parrot using lisp ;)

              >> But i shud argue the tooling support for java is great not just
              >> because
              >> it is from "Sun" but the reason i strongly feel is the simplicity of
              >> the
              >> language design.
              >>
              >>
              >simplicity relative to what ?
              >
              >
              simple relative to other languages.

              >
              >
              >> I definately agree that this is not for geeks who wud argue that
              >> clicking and dragging things around makes a programminer more "Stupid"
              >> and some ppl incl me even feel that they are not programmers at all.
              >> But the truth is in a bussiness environment where if u have 2 changes
              >> to
              >> make each day(a company like dell has that many changes) then i would
              >> say that this tooling really helps.
              >>
              >>
              >"Tooling", "changes" are too general. What kinda changes ? requirement
              >changes, policy changes ?
              >
              >What does tooling mean ? development environment ?, support libraries ?
              >
              >
              >
              it means a development environment.

              >If tooling includes support libraries then some python is probably ahead
              >of java.
              >If you are talking about IDEs then there are good ones for python too
              >(just
              >could'nt resist mentioning EMACS here. ;) )
              >
              >
              >
              refer to my earlier mail on what features i like in an IDE.
              in short i like code refactoring,automatic testing and quick fix feature.

              >> But from what i have read and what i know i feel that python lacks in
              >> most of the departments because it still thinks that programmer will
              >> type the program rather than generate it.
              >>
              >>
              >I have not read "Code Generation in Action" book. I'm pretty sure that a
              >good
              >Python programmer can translate the programs in that book in a day or
              >two.
              >
              >another plug: Lisp has the best support for writing programmable
              >programs. (thx to its uniform
              >syntax).
              >
              >
              >
              i think thats called generative programming.
              correct me if i am wrong.

              >> also can the op highlight the reasons why he has choosen python over
              >> other languages?coz IMO if u can program in C++ very well with
              >> some(infact a lot) of guidelines u can produce programs of the
              >> highest
              >> quality.
              >>
              >>
              >Really ? Modern C++ code taxes the compiler so much that only a few can
              >compile them.
              >
              >
              i was refering to guidelines like same name for file and class,making
              least use of pointers( plz do not tell me abt performance),using less
              multiple inheritance and sticking to a single inheritence tree if
              possible,some coding tips fron java.
              i feel that this makes my proj more pretty and also i use doxygen .

              >Have you tried any language from the ML family ? The beat the hell out of
              >C++.
              >
              >
              >
              nope.heard abt CAML but never tried it.
              can u suggest me some good ones for which there is some good tutorial?

              >> IMHO that was the assumption which other language designers took for
              >> granted and which James gosling didnot .
              >>
              >>
              >My Java history tells me that James Gosling designed Java for use with
              >settop boxes. (I may be wrong - history, geography and civics are not my
              >fav.)
              >
              >
              >
              let it be so but i think as every thing else in this world simplicity
              occur's by accident .
              Had java been designed as a GPPL i dont think that it would be this clean.
              btw can u suggest me some gud links on history of java?

              >--
              > "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
              > Geniuses remove it"
              > - Alan Perlis
              >
              >
              :)
              -suman
            • suman
              hi As the topic is becoming more OT please add an OT tag to your mails or stop poting to this thread. -suman
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                hi
                As the topic is becoming more OT please add an OT tag to your mails or
                stop poting to this thread.
                -suman

                >On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 02:04:45 +0530, "suman" <mansu@...> said:
                >
                >
                >> i agree wth what gc has said but the real reason why people love java
                >> more than python and the reason why i like java more than python is
                >> the
                >> amount of tooling support available.
                >>
                >>
              • V.Krishnakumar
                ... YES. performance does matter. You should definitely check this out: http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/diet.pdf cheers, -Krish -- Fools ignore complexity;
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  > does performance matter these days unless it is too bad?
                  > just curious on this:D
                  YES. performance does matter. You should definitely check this out:
                  http://www.fefe.de/dietlibc/diet.pdf

                  cheers,
                  -Krish


                  --
                  "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
                  Geniuses remove it"
                  - Alan Perlis

                  --
                  http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin
                • V.Krishnakumar
                  ... checkout www.cliki.net . There is a nice article there about object prevalence, lisp and web apps. ... I don t know. At ETV, we have projects that use this
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > isn't it too late for lisp?
                    > unless some one writes smthg like parrot using lisp ;)
                    checkout www.cliki.net . There is a nice article there about object
                    prevalence, lisp and web apps.

                    > i think thats called generative programming.
                    > correct me if i am wrong.
                    I don't know. At ETV, we have projects that use this technique (in perl).

                    > i was refering to guidelines like same name for file and class,making
                    > least use of pointers( plz do not tell me abt performance),using less
                    > multiple inheritance and sticking to a single inheritence tree if
                    > possible,some coding tips fron java.
                    Modern C++ is moving towards value based programming (which is very
                    difficult to do in Java which is inherently reference based).

                    > nope.heard abt CAML but never tried it.
                    > can u suggest me some good ones for which there is some good tutorial?
                    OCaml is free and available at caml.inria.fr . There is also a very good
                    O'Reilly book (online) on OCaml.

                    cheers,
                    -Krish


                    --
                    "Fools ignore complexity; Pragmatists suffer it; Experts avoid it;
                    Geniuses remove it"
                    - Alan Perlis

                    --
                    http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.