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Re: Worthless Cards

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  • Leviticus Darksyde
    ... (+2 for Assassinations could be the difference between success and failure). ... the Ninjas give a bigger bonus and aren t afraid of World Hunger. I just
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 21 4:57 PM
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      --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, smacinwo
      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > Actually, in a pure Cthulhu deck, the Joggers can be quite useful
      (+2 for Assassinations could be the difference between success and
      failure).

      > True enough, but if that's what you want, both the Urban Gangs and
      the Ninjas give a bigger bonus and aren't afraid of World Hunger. I
      just can't fathom a reason why you'd want to put the Joggers in
      instead of either of those, except (like I mentioned in an earlier
      post) a speed-growth Green deck.

      True Enough. But I wouldn't put them in INSTEAD of the Ninjas or
      Urban Gangs. I would put them in there WITH them as a supplement
      (Bonuses are cumulative, you know).

      > > Hammer of Thor useless? Not if you're Hermes or Cthulhu!

      > That +2 to an attack is pretty paltry, especially since you have to
      use an action and therefore can only use it once! As for the Adepts,
      there are tons better Magic resources.

      That's also true. I usually don't use it in a pure Hermes deck
      myself, though if I want to get a little aggressive (or play as
      Cthulhu), I use it along with the Spear of Longinus. Plus, it still
      counts as a group when counting for Goals if you're Hermes. So it's
      not totally useless.


      > > How is Ollie North useful? There aren't many Conservative Media
      in the game (with or without Assassins cards).

      > He's good for a conservative personality speed deck (Ollie has a
      net +7 to control Nancy Reagan, who has a +17 (!) to control Ronald
      Reagan) and is the only Conservative Criminal card in the basic set
      (in an earlier post, I mentioned this was sought after for my
      Criminal Unmask as Bermuda deck).

      Actually, it's +18 for Nancy to control Ronnie (+4 Straight, +4
      Conservative, and her own +10 bonus). Unless you meant net as well.


      The problem with this is you're stretching Ronnie out too far in your
      Power Structure, and he can be easily captured or destroyed in this
      setup, as his Resistance and Power are low. A better bet would be to
      give Ollie an extra arrow, and have him control both Ron AND Nancy
      (Just have Nancy attack him, and transfer him to Ollie). In a pure
      Media deck, however, you'd be better off with Bjorne.

      In a Bermuda Criminal deck, you can just as easily give Fundie Money
      to one of your Criminals (or use the Orbital Mind Control Lasers).

      > > The Boy Sprouts are useful if you're running a Peaceful deck or
      if you have a lot of Places (of course, they can't beat the Red Cross
      or a powered up United Nations when it comes to giving Relief).

      > They're also good for deal-making. "I'll relieve Finland if you
      give me a Plot card..." and then draw an extra for yourself...but,
      again, Red Cross and the Center for Disease Control relieve *any*
      Place, and they're both Peaceful as well.

      My point exactly. There are better groups out there for giving
      Relief than the Boy Sprouts.

      > > Of course, in my opinion, the Most Useless Card In The Entire
      Game has got to be Switzerland. It serves little purpose, either for
      the Gnomes of Zurich, or against them. Of course if you need cannon
      fodder for Cthulhu...

      > Strangely enough, I agree...but I've also seen Switzerland occur
      freqently in my gaming group for some reason, so I kind of forgot
      about it as being a weak card. I think it's because when we first
      started to play, the first three games were won by the Gnomes, so
      everyone started stacking their deck with anti-Corporate and Bank
      cards...

      I suppose in an anti-Corporate deck it could work, especially if you
      make it a Monster Place. Not much use in normal situations, though.

      > At one point I had written an article for Pyramid about altering
      the special abilities of "useless" cards to make them a bit more
      competitive, slightly altering the special abilities (but *not* the
      statistics) (i.e., Boy Sprouts can relieve any place, and can draw
      either a Group or Plot card; Hammer of Thor does +4 instead of +2,
      ans also works for Magic, etc.). This was about eight years ago and
      was rejected, and I no longer have it anymore. But it was a fairly
      fun academic exercise.

      As I said once before, "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It."

      Fnord.

      *Leviticus Darksyde*
    • plasmoid_dk
      Hi all, Steve suggested that we made a list of useless groups, and here is mine. I ll add in resources later. Let me start by saying that I don t think that
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 22 5:58 AM
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        Hi all,
        Steve suggested that we made a list of useless groups, and here is
        mine. I'll add in resources later.
        Let me start by saying that I don't think that these cards require
        errata, they can just be ignored. Mind you, I'd love if these cards
        were more useful, but we've got plenty of errata to remember as is.
        But as an academic exercise, this is great fun, and we can always
        dream of a new edition. :)

        I don't consider cards useful simply because they count against a
        goal. Quite often other cards which also count for that goal will
        replace them. Exempt from this are cards with unique combinations of
        alignments, which can be very useful for Bermuda. Still, it would be
        nice if such cards did something remotely useful.

        I also consider no alignments a big problem. Unless a group has a
        very very useful special ability, it will rarely make it into a deck
        if it can't be defended.

        BTW, lets try to come up with decks where these cards could be
        useful. It doesn't make them generally more useful, but shows that
        there is hope for almost anyone :)

        Right. The list:
        *Antiwar Activists (it only adds resistance)
        *Boy Sprouts (other cards relieve way better)
        *Conspiracy Theorists
        *Copy Shops? (so hard to defend)
        *Day Care Centers (with pow1, their mimic ability is of little use)
        *Druids (nice against disasters, but a normal attack to destroy will
        kill both groups)
        *Elvis (other groups _with alignments_ can cancel media too)
        *Flat Earthers
        *Hannelohre Kohl (an extra token on Red Cross?)
        *Imelda Marcos
        *Joggers (If I want assassinations, quite a few violent groups are
        better, and for green slurp I'd prefer the +4 from an alignment)
        *MI-5 (Only works against exposing, not, say, Agent in Place)
        *Militia (+1 to _printed_ power? It has printed power 1!)
        *Moonbase (protect personalities a little, then have a disaster kill
        them)
        *Nutrition Nazis (as a group)
        *Pale People in Black
        *Paranoids
        *Recycling Centers (Cool, but hard to defend)
        *Secular Humanists
        *Shock Jocks
        *Telephone Psychics?
        *Trekkies

        And from CotSG
        *Corrective Phrenologists
        *Dallas Catacombs
        *Good Sex for Mutants Dating League
        *Phlegm Elementals
        *St. Janor Hypercleats
        *Saucer Landing Strip
        *SubGenius FisTemples (?)
        *Yetis

        Cheers
        Martin :)
      • smacinwo
        ... Good point. But if I m putting the Joggers, Urban Gangs, and the Ninjas in a deck, I d better be praying that Chicken in Every Pot doesn t get played. ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 22 10:30 PM
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          > True Enough. But I wouldn't put them in INSTEAD of the Ninjas or
          > Urban Gangs. I would put them in there WITH them as a supplement
          > (Bonuses are cumulative, you know).

          Good point. But if I'm putting the Joggers, Urban Gangs, and the
          Ninjas in a deck, I'd better be praying that Chicken in Every Pot
          doesn't get played.

          > > > Hammer of Thor useless? Not if you're Hermes or Cthulhu!
          >
          > > That +2 to an attack is pretty paltry, especially since you have
          to
          > use an action and therefore can only use it once! As for the
          Adepts,
          > there are tons better Magic resources.
          >
          > That's also true. I usually don't use it in a pure Hermes deck
          > myself, though if I want to get a little aggressive (or play as
          > Cthulhu), I use it along with the Spear of Longinus. Plus, it
          still
          > counts as a group when counting for Goals if you're Hermes. So
          it's
          > not totally useless.

          I guess it's the law of diminishing returns. Sure, I'd put--and have
          put--the Hammer of Thor in my Adepts decks, but not before the Holy
          Grail, Crystal Skull, Shroud of Turin, Soulburner, Book of Kells,
          and the Necronomicon are in, but it *would* be before the Frog God,
          the Spear of Longinus, and the Bronze Head. I've never gotten to the
          point where, by the time I have enough Magic resources out, I'd
          better put some groups in my power structure instead.

          > > > How is Ollie North useful? There aren't many Conservative
          Media
          > in the game (with or without Assassins cards).
          >
          > > He's good for a conservative personality speed deck (Ollie has a
          > net +7 to control Nancy Reagan, who has a +17 (!) to control
          Ronald
          > Reagan) and is the only Conservative Criminal card in the basic
          set
          > (in an earlier post, I mentioned this was sought after for my
          > Criminal Unmask as Bermuda deck).
          >
          > Actually, it's +18 for Nancy to control Ronnie (+4 Straight, +4
          > Conservative, and her own +10 bonus). Unless you meant net as
          well.

          Yeah, I meant net. I think. I hain't doin' the math again.

          >
          > The problem with this is you're stretching Ronnie out too far in
          your
          > Power Structure, and he can be easily captured or destroyed in
          this
          > setup, as his Resistance and Power are low. A better bet would be
          to
          > give Ollie an extra arrow, and have him control both Ron AND Nancy
          > (Just have Nancy attack him, and transfer him to Ollie). In a
          pure
          > Media deck, however, you'd be better off with Bjorne.

          I wouldn't be so fool as to 1) make a personality have a puppet
          (excepting Bjorne and Ross Perot); 2) allowing a personality to get
          three cards away from you Illuminati. And unless you Blitzkreig
          Nancy, it's not going to happen anyway.

          > > > Of course, in my opinion, the Most Useless Card In The Entire
          > Game has got to be Switzerland. It serves little purpose, either
          for
          > the Gnomes of Zurich, or against them. Of course if you need
          cannon
          > fodder for Cthulhu...
          >
          > > Strangely enough, I agree...but I've also seen Switzerland occur
          > freqently in my gaming group for some reason, so I kind of forgot
          > about it as being a weak card. I think it's because when we first
          > started to play, the first three games were won by the Gnomes, so
          > everyone started stacking their deck with anti-Corporate and Bank
          > cards...
          >
          > I suppose in an anti-Corporate deck it could work, especially if
          you
          > make it a Monster Place. Not much use in normal situations,
          though.

          I never really saw the point, anyway, because if you're going to use
          Switzerland against the Gnomes, better be ready with your defenses
          since...they have a +15 to control it! Not a particularly useful
          card, indeed.

          > > At one point I had written an article for Pyramid about altering
          > the special abilities of "useless" cards to make them a bit more
          > competitive, slightly altering the special abilities (but *not*
          the
          > statistics) (i.e., Boy Sprouts can relieve any place, and can draw
          > either a Group or Plot card; Hammer of Thor does +4 instead of +2,
          > ans also works for Magic, etc.). This was about eight years ago
          and
          > was rejected, and I no longer have it anymore. But it was a fairly
          > fun academic exercise.
          >
          > As I said once before, "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It."

          Well, I don't want to say these cards are broken--that's an
          adjective better reserved for cards like Interesting Times (What?
          Did you say something, Martin?). But I would call them useless or
          next-to-useless, and, to me, it's more fun if every card in your
          power structure did something fun and useful. Yeah, I've have the
          Urban Gangs and Joggers in my deck before, but they're just there.
          Yawn. So why not be creative and think up some alternate special
          abilities?

          How about this: in addition to Switzerland's existing ability, any
          Bank puppet of Swizterland is immune from attacks from Government,
          Corproate groups and Nations, and has doubled Power and Resistance
          against any other type of attack. That fits the theme of the card
          well, it's not too powerful--the puppet of a low-powered, non-huge
          place is *not* that well defended--and it makes a formerly
          marginally useful card somewhat more useful. Again, this is all
          academic, but damn, it's fun, isn't it?
        • smacinwo
          Good list. Some I ve forgotten about. ... This is the most disappointing one. It could have been a lot more thematic and useful. ... I use this card more than
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 22 10:40 PM
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            Good list. Some I've forgotten about.

            > *Antiwar Activists (it only adds resistance)

            This is the most disappointing one. It could have been a lot more
            thematic and useful.

            > *Boy Sprouts (other cards relieve way better)
            > *Conspiracy Theorists

            I use this card more than normal. I like it.

            > *Copy Shops? (so hard to defend)

            See below.

            > *Day Care Centers (with pow1, their mimic ability is of little use)
            > *Druids (nice against disasters, but a normal attack to destroy
            will
            > kill both groups)

            Yeah, this one's pretty stupid. Yeah, you make one place harder to
            destroy with a disaster...but the Druids have no alignments, so
            they're hard to defend, which makes them easy targets, which also
            destroys the place you want to protect. Maybe they should be
            Secret...

            > *Elvis (other groups _with alignments_ can cancel media too)

            Well, his use is more with the Church of Elvis than his Media-
            cancelling ability.

            > *Flat Earthers
            > *Hannelohre Kohl (an extra token on Red Cross?)
            > *Imelda Marcos
            > *Joggers (If I want assassinations, quite a few violent groups are
            > better, and for green slurp I'd prefer the +4 from an alignment)
            > *MI-5 (Only works against exposing, not, say, Agent in Place)

            I've used this before as well. Not often, but it actually came in
            handy more than once...

            > *Militia (+1 to _printed_ power? It has printed power 1!)

            Yes, but it's Violent. Link to Cyborg Soldiers, and, suddenly,
            that's 2 its increasing each time...

            > *Moonbase (protect personalities a little, then have a disaster
            kill
            > them)
            > *Nutrition Nazis (as a group)
            > *Pale People in Black
            > *Paranoids
            > *Recycling Centers (Cool, but hard to defend)

            This, along with Copy Shops, are good "gimmick" groups, so I
            wouldn't call them useless. By themselves they are, yes, but there's
            so many good uses to put them to.

            > *Secular Humanists
            i forgot about them. I actually have used them successfully in a
            Liberal deck, but only because I was playing a no-rares deck...

            > *Shock Jocks

            If there was a control Weird/destroy Straight goal, this might
            become useful.

            > *Telephone Psychics?

            I had a very good use for this card once. I played a sneak-from-
            behind Criminal Overlords victory one time. At the beginning of the
            turn I had no Violent Criminal cards, at the end I did...this was
            one leg of the stool. I used the Gay Activists to make this a
            Violent instead of Peaceful, and this is the only Peaceful Criminal
            group in the basic game.

            > *Trekkies

            I'll have to agree with most of this list. Looking at this list,
            most are useless, but some (Trekkies, Elvis, Conspiracy Theorists,
            Boy Sprouts) I see relatively often (not NPC often, but often
            enough...) So I think many of these cards are "I need one more card,
            let me find something--anything--with a like or similar alignment
            that no one else has an agents card for." Maybe they're just the
            games in our playing group.
          • plasmoid_dk
            Hi Steve and Leviticus, Ollie North actually has a 3rd slurp: The german Showmaster. Furthermore, slap a False Overman on Ollie, and his power will increase to
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 22 11:24 PM
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              Hi Steve and Leviticus,
              Ollie North actually has a 3rd slurp: The german Showmaster.
              Furthermore, slap a False Overman on Ollie, and his power will
              increase to 3, he will have 2 matching alignments on all 3 slurps
              for a net attack of pow19, and he will count towards Criminal
              Overlords.
              Not bad :)

              IMO, Switzerland is cr*p against the Gnomes, but it is great for the
              gnomes - as a last turn slurp. Basically, on the turn where you go
              for a win, a "free" +15 isn't half bad.
              I just never play the Gnomes bevause they are so boring.

              Cheers
              Martin
            • plasmoid_dk
              Hi Steve, Leviticus and all: ... Not say as much as sob . ... IMO, stick with the immunity. I m going to split up the thread into 2. Onw with suggestions
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 23 12:55 AM
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                Hi Steve, Leviticus and all:

                Steve said:
                >that's an adjective better reserved for cards like Interesting Times
                >(What? Did you say something, Martin?).
                Not "say" as much as "sob".

                >How about: any Bank puppet of Swizterland is immune from attacks
                >from Government, Corproate groups and Nations, and has doubled Power
                >and Resistance against any other type of attack.
                IMO, stick with the immunity.

                I'm going to split up the thread into 2. Onw with suggestions for
                errata, and one with suggestions for clever things to do with
                the "useless" cards.

                >>*Conspiracy Theorists
                >I use this card more than normal. I like it.
                Really? Fair enough. I'll scratch it from the list.

                >>*Druids>
                >which makes them easy targets, which also destroys the place you
                >want to protect.
                Actually, it's the other way around. But the problem remains.
                In the official errata I *think* it was clarified that their ability
                to aid magic includes secret magic....

                >>*Elvis>
                >Well, his use is more with the Church of Elvis.
                Sure, but isolated, he is fairly useless.
                And since he is neither weird or peaceful, Discordia/Shangri-La will
                have little use for him, so has many better 2-group-combos than him
                and his church.

                >>*MI-5
                > I've used this before as well.
                Yeah. It's OK. I was being too harsh.

                >>*Militia (+1 to _printed_ power? It has printed power 1!)
                >Yes, but it's Violent. Link to Cyborg Soldiers, and, suddenly,
                >that's 2 its increasing each time...
                I'd rather play a "power-to-6" than hope for them to take part in 6
                succesful attacks, which would _finally_ put their power at 7.

                >>*Recycling Centers + Copy Shops
                >This, along with Copy Shops, are good "gimmick" groups.
                I know. They're just so hard to fit into decks.
                If you rely on their gimmick then you either only get it once
                (because they are so easy to destroy) or you'll need a loooong time
                to set up your deck.

                I'll put these 2 in the errata thread, but not in the "trick" thread.

                >>*Telephone Psychics?
                >I used the Gay Activists to make this a Violent instead of Peaceful,
                >and this is the only Peaceful Criminal group in the basic game.
                OK. I consider that fairly marginal though ;)
                I'll take that as a trick, not as an indication that they are useful.

                Right. I'll set it up. Cheers :)
                Martin
              • plasmoid_dk
                Hi all, this is the thread for suggesting errata for the useless cards. This will never be official, nor is that the intention. It s just a bit of fun inn it?
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 23 1:08 AM
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                  Hi all,
                  this is the thread for suggesting errata for the useless cards.
                  This will never be official, nor is that the intention.
                  It's just a bit of fun inn'it? :)
                  (BTW, wording may be sloppy, we can clean that up later).

                  *Antiwar Activists
                  Martin: These could be the reverse of KKK. They even have the exact
                  reverse alignments. So: If they defend a peaceful group, then all
                  Violent groups on either side have half power.

                  *Boy Sprouts
                  Steve: Maybe let them draw a plot or a group.

                  *Copy Shops
                  Martin: Corporate?

                  *Corrective Phrenologists
                  *Dallas Catacombs
                  *Day Care Centers
                  *Druids
                  *Elvis
                  *Flat Earthers
                  *Good Sex for Mutants Dating League
                  *Hannelohre Kohl
                  *Imelda Marcos
                  *Joggers
                  *Militia
                  Martin: Maybe make it a bonus to permanent power, instead of printed.

                  *Moonbase
                  *Ollie North
                  *Nutrition Nazis (as a group)
                  *Pale People in Black
                  *Paranoids
                  *Phlegm Elementals
                  *Recycling Centers
                  Martin: Government?

                  *Saucer Landing Strip
                  *Secular Humanists
                  *Shock Jocks
                  *Switzerland
                  Steve: In addition to Switzerland's existing ability, any
                  Bank puppet of Swizterland is immune from attacks from Government,
                  Corproate groups and Nations.

                  *Telephone Psychics
                  *Trekkies
                  *Yetis

                  *Earthquake Projector
                  Martin: Spend its token to create a disaster against any place. Pow16
                  to devastate. Pow11 to destroy.

                  *Hammer of Thor
                  Martin: Replaces old ability: Link to add +2 power to one magic group.

                  *The True Pipe
                • plasmoid_dk
                  Hi all, this is the thread for suggesting clever things to do with otherwize useless cards. *Antiwar Activists *Boy Sprouts Steve: Good for deal-making. I ll
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 23 1:27 AM
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                    Hi all,
                    this is the thread for suggesting clever things to do with otherwize
                    useless cards.

                    *Antiwar Activists
                    *Boy Sprouts
                    Steve: Good for deal-making. "I'll relieve Finland if you give
                    me a Plot card..." and then draw an extra for yourself.

                    *Corrective Phrenologists
                    *Dallas Catacombs
                    *Day Care Centers
                    Martin: They've got low power, but they can still count towards
                    criminal overlords.
                    Martin: In any deck with several x/y goals, they can switch their
                    alignment easily.
                    Martin: Place Manuel Noriega as a puppet of Ross Perot. He now has 5
                    alignments. Day Care, Dittoheads and Secret FisTemples can all copy
                    his alignments. Put NWO: Gun Control and NWO: Law and Order in play,
                    for a +7 power bonus for each!

                    *Druids
                    Martin: Might be useful in a Cthulhu seppuku deck. Druids die when
                    you make "their" place go boom.

                    *Elvis
                    *Flat Earthers
                    *Good Sex for Mutants Dating League
                    *Hannelohre Kohl
                    *Imelda Marcos
                    Martin: DotW 61 uses CDC and Goal: Arise! to make an attack initiated
                    by you count as someone else destroying you. Imelda can do this too,
                    but she has more targets, and rivals can not make her attack succeed
                    (which kills the trick). Just use dice control to kill her.

                    *Joggers
                    *Militia
                    *Moonbase
                    Martin: Classic really. Seppukuthulhu. Combine it with personalities,
                    druids and an Ark of the Covenant, and the ball really starts rolling.

                    *Nutrition Nazis (as a group)
                    *Ollie North
                    Martin: Combine with False Overman. He now has an attack power of 19
                    against Ronald, Nancy and Showmaster (and counts towards criminal
                    overlords).

                    *Pale People in Black
                    *Paranoids
                    *Phlegm Elementals
                    *Saucer Landing Strip
                    *Secular Humanists
                    *Shock Jocks
                    *Switzerland
                    Martin: With Privileged Attack it's an easy last turn slurp for the
                    Gnomes.

                    *Telephone Psychics
                    Steve: Use the Gay Activists to make this a Violent instead of
                    Peaceful group, for a sneaky Criminal Ovewrlords win.

                    *Trekkies
                    *Yetis
                    *Earthquake Projector
                    *Hammer of Thor
                    *The True Pipe

                    Cheers,
                    Martin :)
                  • smacinwo
                    ... Not to make this list any longer than it should be, but there are a lot of cards that are powerful enough, they *should* be used fairly often, but I never
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 23 8:09 AM
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                      > I'm going to split up the thread into 2. Onw with suggestions for
                      > errata, and one with suggestions for clever things to do with
                      > the "useless" cards.

                      Not to make this list any longer than it should be, but there are a
                      lot of cards that are powerful enough, they *should* be used fairly
                      often, but I never see them in play. I hesitate to call them
                      useless, because I can find uses for them but there's something
                      missing. For instance, I have never, ever put Pollsters in my deck.
                      Ever. I can thing of many ways that their special ability can be
                      useful, but I've never done it. How about OPEC? OPEC doesn't really
                      have a special ability to use, does it? It just has an average Power
                      of 5. It doesn't have GLobal Power and just has one alignment. I
                      rarely put this in my deck except for a power deck with Texas and
                      MOC.

                      > >>*Conspiracy Theorists
                      > >I use this card more than normal. I like it.
                      > Really? Fair enough. I'll scratch it from the list.

                      Well, I think i'm singular in this opinion. No one else I play with
                      seems to like them.

                      > >>*Druids>
                      > >which makes them easy targets, which also destroys the place you
                      > >want to protect.
                      > Actually, it's the other way around. But the problem remains.
                      > In the official errata I *think* it was clarified that their
                      ability
                      > to aid magic includes secret magic....

                      Drats! You're right. Still, it's a pain in the neck. And yes, they
                      can interfere with Secret Magic groups.

                      > >>*Elvis>
                      > >Well, his use is more with the Church of Elvis.
                      > Sure, but isolated, he is fairly useless.
                      > And since he is neither weird or peaceful, Discordia/Shangri-La
                      will
                      > have little use for him, so has many better 2-group-combos than
                      him
                      > and his church.

                      > >>*MI-5
                      > > I've used this before as well.
                      > Yeah. It's OK. I was being too harsh.
                      >
                      > >>*Militia (+1 to _printed_ power? It has printed power 1!)
                      > >Yes, but it's Violent. Link to Cyborg Soldiers, and, suddenly,
                      > >that's 2 its increasing each time...
                      > I'd rather play a "power-to-6" than hope for them to take part in
                      6
                      > succesful attacks, which would _finally_ put their power at 7.

                      I never noticed this before. You're right. What a waste. A simple
                      change to "permanent" is warrented.

                      > >>*Recycling Centers + Copy Shops
                      > >This, along with Copy Shops, are good "gimmick" groups.
                      > I know. They're just so hard to fit into decks.
                      > If you rely on their gimmick then you either only get it once
                      > (because they are so easy to destroy) or you'll need a loooong
                      time
                      > to set up your deck.
                      >
                      > I'll put these 2 in the errata thread, but not in the "trick"
                      thread.
                      >
                      > >>*Telephone Psychics?
                      > >I used the Gay Activists to make this a Violent instead of
                      Peaceful,
                      > >and this is the only Peaceful Criminal group in the basic game.
                      > OK. I consider that fairly marginal though ;)
                      > I'll take that as a trick, not as an indication that they are
                      useful.

                      It's extremely marginal. I just wanted to tell that story.

                      > Right. I'll set it up. Cheers :)
                      > Martin
                    • Leviticus Darksyde
                      ... wrote: . ... I really don t see why you included Elvis in this list. With some work, Elvis can be as useful as any other Personality. Or
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 28 5:42 PM
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                        --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                        <no_reply@y...> wrote:

                        .
                        >
                        > I also consider no alignments a big problem. Unless a group has a
                        > *Elvis (other groups _with alignments_ can cancel media too)


                        I really don't see why you included Elvis in this list. With some
                        work, Elvis can be as useful as any other Personality.

                        Or didn't you see my Elvis Is King! deck?

                        So Elvis doesn't have Alignments? Give him some!

                        Or boost his Power using Celebrity Spokesman (link him to Las Vegas
                        for a fitting theme).

                        Make him a Messiah, and the Church of Elvis gives him more Power.

                        Give him Media Connections, and he's now a Media Personality with
                        Global Power equal to his regular Power.

                        If you're Shangri-La, make him Peaceful, and all those points count
                        towards your Special Goal.

                        If you're Discordia, make him Weird, and he now counts double (as
                        does his Church).

                        And Don't Forget: He's the only one who can boost the Church of
                        Elvis without Plots.

                        Fnord.

                        *Leviticus Darksyde*
                      • plasmoid_dk
                        Hi Leviticus, maybe I was too harsh on Elvis. Then again, I ve never in my many years of playing seen him used. My problem with your suggestions is that they
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 30 8:58 AM
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                          Hi Leviticus,
                          maybe I was too harsh on Elvis. Then again, I've never in my many
                          years of playing seen him used.

                          My problem with your suggestions is that they really have nothing to
                          do with Elvis. You can do all of that with any personality.
                          For example, if Shangri-La wants a big personality, then a Nobel and
                          Necronomicon for the Grosse Magier does a better job.

                          Also, while power 8 is neat, it is quite a weakness to have that
                          power rely on a weak group, and a personality at that. A high-power
                          group can defend itself very well, but if someone takes out a weak
                          Elvis, then your power goes, and then the Church can be dealt with
                          next.

                          Also, as Shangri-La I'd never use a Kinder and Gentler on Elvis,
                          when I could be using it on a rivals group.

                          So while I do agree that a power 8 peaceful weird group is a great
                          thing, I think that Elvis himself is too much of a liability, and
                          most decks can use 2 takeovers on other groups with better results.

                          Cheers
                          Martin
                        • Leviticus Darksyde
                          ... to ... and ... At the same time, just about every Personality (with the exception of Bill Clinton) is initially weak. The idea is to Power them up BEFORE
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 30 6:35 PM
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                            --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi Leviticus,
                            > maybe I was too harsh on Elvis. Then again, I've never in my many
                            > years of playing seen him used.
                            >
                            > My problem with your suggestions is that they really have nothing
                            to
                            > do with Elvis. You can do all of that with any personality.
                            > For example, if Shangri-La wants a big personality, then a Nobel
                            and
                            > Necronomicon for the Grosse Magier does a better job.
                            >
                            > Also, while power 8 is neat, it is quite a weakness to have that
                            > power rely on a weak group, and a personality at that. A high-power
                            > group can defend itself very well, but if someone takes out a weak
                            > Elvis, then your power goes, and then the Church can be dealt with
                            > next.
                            >
                            > Also, as Shangri-La I'd never use a Kinder and Gentler on Elvis,
                            > when I could be using it on a rivals group.
                            >
                            > So while I do agree that a power 8 peaceful weird group is a great
                            > thing, I think that Elvis himself is too much of a liability, and
                            > most decks can use 2 takeovers on other groups with better results.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > Martin

                            At the same time, just about every Personality (with the exception of
                            Bill Clinton) is initially weak. The idea is to Power them up BEFORE
                            Cthulhu gets around to destroying/assassinating them. And remember,
                            I don't have Assasssins or German cards, so using Grosse Magier as a
                            frame of reference is kind of lost on me (I assume he's Magic,
                            otherwise the Necronomicon link doesn't work).

                            Going back to the Ollie North issue again: If you take the Reagans
                            out of the equation, there really isn't much Ollie can really do for
                            you. Ditto with Jimmy Hoffa. Without the CFL-AIO, he's pretty much
                            useless (unless you're playing an anti-Corporate deck against Zurich).

                            The Flat Earthers are only marginally useful, if you have an all
                            Place deck. Not much use in normal situations. I had a deck
                            prepared featuring them, but it looked too much like my United Alien
                            Nations deck, so I had to scrap it.

                            Earthquake Projector isn't totally useless, but it's pretty weak.
                            You need two of them to really be effective. Good thing it's not
                            Unique.

                            Counterspell: Is there a real reason to have it in your deck? Hex
                            works just as well (in most cases better), and doesn't require the
                            Resource to be used to attack you.

                            You mentioned the Joggers before. The Urban Gangs really aren't that
                            much better, plus they can be destroyed. They're good in
                            combination, though (though the Ninjas and the Voudonistas are much
                            better).

                            I find Hillary Clinton is only marginally useful at best. Can't
                            really build a deck around her.

                            Fnord.

                            *Leviticus Darksyde*
                          • smacinwo
                            ... many ... I see him used in about every other Shangri-La deck. I don t think Elvis is that great of a card--he is functionally identical to Dan Quayle--but
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 30 10:49 PM
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                              > > maybe I was too harsh on Elvis. Then again, I've never in my
                              many
                              > > years of playing seen him used.

                              I see him used in about every other Shangri-La deck. I don't think
                              Elvis is that great of a card--he is functionally identical to Dan
                              Quayle--but I do like cards that cancel Media actions, since Media
                              groups are powerful, can power lots of cards, and need to be
                              cancelled now and then. The Elvis/Church of Elvis combo is pretty
                              potent--not just for Shangri-La, but a raw power deck (Church of
                              Elvis has the highest "permanent" (note quotes) power save a
                              Murphy's Law-ed OPEC); try making it Violent and doubling it, then
                              playing Messiah on Elvis...

                              If given a choice, I'd use Dan Quayle, or, more likely, Bigfoot. But
                              the things already mentioned by other posters would preclude me from
                              adding him to a useless deck.

                              > > My problem with your suggestions is that they really have
                              nothing
                              > to
                              > > do with Elvis. You can do all of that with any personality.
                              > > For example, if Shangri-La wants a big personality, then a Nobel
                              > and
                              > > Necronomicon for the Grosse Magier does a better job.
                              > >
                              > > Also, while power 8 is neat, it is quite a weakness to have that
                              > > power rely on a weak group, and a personality at that. A high-
                              power
                              > > group can defend itself very well, but if someone takes out a
                              weak
                              > > Elvis, then your power goes, and then the Church can be dealt
                              with
                              > > next.

                              Point taken. Elvis is not much more than marginally useful without
                              the Church of Elvis.

                              > Going back to the Ollie North issue again: If you take the
                              Reagans
                              > out of the equation, there really isn't much Ollie can really do
                              for
                              > you. Ditto with Jimmy Hoffa. Without the CFL-AIO, he's pretty
                              much
                              > useless (unless you're playing an anti-Corporate deck against
                              Zurich).

                              Wha-wha-wha-what? Cancelling Corporate actions (or the threat
                              thereof) is about the only thing that keeps games with the NPCs
                              grinding to a halt.

                              > Earthquake Projector isn't totally useless, but it's pretty weak.
                              > You need two of them to really be effective. Good thing it's not
                              > Unique.

                              Remember: you can't use the same card twice in the same attack.
                              About the only good thing Earthquake Projector can do is be used
                              against Space places, which cannot be done with the Weather
                              Satellite. The Earthquake disaster itself is pretty awful--I think
                              it's a coaster, if I'm remembering correctly. The very least they
                              could have done was say, "...or a +10 when used with Earthquake."

                              > Counterspell: Is there a real reason to have it in your deck?
                              Hex
                              > works just as well (in most cases better), and doesn't require the
                              > Resource to be used to attack you.

                              It's slightly cheaper than Hex, but, you're right, it also required
                              it be used against you. The cost is actually somewhat significant--
                              most Magic groups have very weak power (only Stonehenge, Templars,
                              and WITCH have 3+ Power). All told, though you're right--Hex is
                              probably better all around.
                            • plasmoid_dk
                              Hi Leviticus, ... My point is: If you use Nancys ability to slurp Ronnie, and Nancy then bites it, you still got Ronald to show for your efforts. If Elvis
                              Message 14 of 21 , Aug 2, 2004
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                                Hi Leviticus,

                                >Going back to the Ollie North issue again: If you take the Reagans
                                >out of the equation, there really isn't much Ollie can really do
                                >for you. Ditto with Jimmy Hoffa. Without the CFL-AIO, he's pretty
                                >much useless (unless you're playing an anti-Corporate deck against
                                >Zurich).

                                My point is:
                                If you use Nancys ability to slurp Ronnie, and Nancy then bites it,
                                you still got Ronald to show for your efforts.
                                If Elvis comes into play, you get a bonus - but when he goes again,
                                you having nothing to show for it.

                                Cheers
                                Martin
                              • Leviticus Darksyde
                                ... I think you meant Ollie, not Nancy, since that was the subject, but I see your point. That is the problem with co-dependent cards (such as Elvis and the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Aug 2, 2004
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                                  --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > Hi Leviticus,
                                  >
                                  > >Going back to the Ollie North issue again: If you take the Reagans
                                  > >out of the equation, there really isn't much Ollie can really do
                                  > >for you. Ditto with Jimmy Hoffa. Without the CFL-AIO, he's pretty
                                  > >much useless (unless you're playing an anti-Corporate deck against
                                  > >Zurich).
                                  >
                                  > My point is:
                                  > If you use Nancys ability to slurp Ronnie, and Nancy then bites it,
                                  > you still got Ronald to show for your efforts.
                                  > If Elvis comes into play, you get a bonus - but when he goes again,
                                  > you having nothing to show for it.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  > Martin

                                  I think you meant Ollie, not Nancy, since that was the subject, but I
                                  see your point. That is the problem with co-dependent cards (such as
                                  Elvis and the Church of Elvis). If you lose one, the other becomes
                                  useless. I still feel it's kind of hard to build a deck around Ollie
                                  North with so few Conservative Media. Using him to slurp Nancy
                                  Reagan (then having her slurp Ronnie) is a neat trick if you can do
                                  it, though.

                                  Fnord.

                                  *Leviticus Darksyde*
                                • Leviticus Darksyde
                                  ... weak. ... Your mistake here is you cannot use the same PLOT card twice in the same attack. Earthquake Projector is a RESOURCE, and not a Unique one, so
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Aug 2, 2004
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                                    --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, smacinwo
                                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                    > > Earthquake Projector isn't totally useless, but it's pretty
                                    weak.
                                    > > You need two of them to really be effective. Good thing it's not
                                    > > Unique.
                                    >
                                    > Remember: you can't use the same card twice in the same attack.
                                    > About the only good thing Earthquake Projector can do is be used
                                    > against Space places, which cannot be done with the Weather
                                    > Satellite. The Earthquake disaster itself is pretty awful--I think
                                    > it's a coaster, if I'm remembering correctly. The very least they
                                    > could have done was say, "...or a +10 when used with Earthquake."

                                    Your mistake here is you cannot use the same PLOT card twice in the
                                    same attack. Earthquake Projector is a RESOURCE, and not a Unique
                                    one, so you CAN use two of them in the same attack (each has its own
                                    action, remember). If you can do it with Weather Satellite (and you
                                    can), you can do it with Earthquake Projector.

                                    It's called attention to detail.

                                    Fnord.

                                    *Leviticus Darksyde*
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