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[Illuminati New World Order] Re: Dead dead dead

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  • xaaronus
    ... Unfortunately no, Brainwash is a supplement for Deluxe Illuminati. The Boxed game. It s fun but I d rather have more INWO.
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 16, 2003
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      --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, Gary Groeneweg
      <groeneweg72@y...> wrote:
      > What is this Brainwash that I keep hearing about? Are
      > there NEW inwo supplements?! Really?

      Unfortunately no, Brainwash is a supplement for Deluxe Illuminati.
      The Boxed game. It's fun but I'd rather have more INWO.
    • The Warbuilder
      Agreed...and 100 of those players are in Bavaria. So... Warbuilder ... From: plasmoid_dk To:
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
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        Agreed...and 100 of those players are in Bavaria. So...

        Warbuilder

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "plasmoid_dk" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
        To: <illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:52 AM
        Subject: [Illuminati New World Order] Re: Dead dead dead


        > Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
        > That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.
        >
        > It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
        > just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
        > fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
        > I mean, how many people are still playing?
        > 200?
        >
        > Martin
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        >
      • plasmoid_dk
        Perhaps SJGames could release the BFD on ccgworkshop. That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy. It s really annoying that there is a finished set
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
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          Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
          That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.

          It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
          just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
          fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
          I mean, how many people are still playing?
          200?

          Martin
        • byerskr
          If he builds it they will come. It happened before and it will happen again. I know that I am in the process of getting a group going here again and they will
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
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            If he builds it they will come. It happened before and it will
            happen again.

            I know that I am in the process of getting a group going here again
            and they will buy some boxes. It may not be everything profit-wise,
            but SJG could at least let people get in in files and tell them how
            to use the empty cards to put them on.

            Keith Byers
          • smacinwo
            ... Actually, I think a lot more play than that...I was at a wedding reception, and the topic came around to gaming, and I casually mentioned INWO...and two of
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
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              --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
              <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
              > That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.
              >
              > It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
              > just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
              > fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
              > I mean, how many people are still playing?
              > 200?
              >
              > Martin

              Actually, I think a lot more play than that...I was at a wedding
              reception, and the topic came around to gaming, and I casually
              mentioned INWO...and two of the people there (whom I had never met)
              played the game. We talked about it for fifteen minutes or so.
              (Unfortunately, they live far away...but then again, that's two more
              cabals that might be starting back up.) This was a about three
              months ago, and that's not bad for a 10-year-old game.

              I don't expect SJG to release BFD. Let's face it--it will be a loss.
              There's one reason for this--SubGenius. SubGenius has to be the
              worst thing that ever happened to INWO, and has killed off any
              chance of a supplement. SubGenius was *not* a financial success, and
              anyone of Steve Jacksons' business savvy should have known that. The
              Church of the SubGeius has a very small audience. INWO also has a
              fairly small audience. Mixing both of them together spells disaster,
              since you're probably only to get sales when those two markets
              overlap, and for two niche markets, anyone could have seen the
              impending financial loss happen. (I, personally, find the cards
              redudant, uncreative, broken, and--dare I say--offensive. One of our
              friends bought it. We looked at it, and we dumped it.) INWO had mass
              appeal (well, for gaming) because the subject of the cards were well-
              known to most people--Bill Clinton, the Vatican, etc. SubGenius was
              the opposite of that--trying to force INWO fans into caring about 97
              cards that are barely understood outside of the context of the
              Church. What a stupid, stupid waste of time.

              However, I *do* think that a conspiracy game *could* be profitable
              if marketed correctly. In this post-9/11 world, there will be plenty
              of "controversial" groups and cards that could generate some word-of-
              mouth and hook a lot of curiosity-seekers, like Al-Quaeda. (I'm not
              saying such cards would be a good idea, but they are legitimate
              targets for conspiracy.)

              However, just releasing an expansion probably wouldn't work. Re-
              releasing the whole mess (INWO and Assassins and BFD, and mayble
              renaming and culling the best 10-20% from SubGenius) would be the
              most likely financial success, but also the riskiest.

              [And--I might add--one could say, "well, they did that already--it's
              called Deluxe Illuminati. I think there's a lot of people out there
              who would say INWO is better mechanically than Illuminati, and some
              would say just the opposide. I think marketing it as
              a "customizable" game, though not necessarily a "collectable" game
              may or may not be a good move. Everyone has their own One Big Deck?
              Not a bad idea....)

              Granted, this is advice with someone with 0% experience in the
              gaming industry, one known for a small profit margin and little room
              for costly mistakes, so SJG not releasing an expansion for a 10-year-
              old game from a largely collapsed game format is not exactly a
              surprise,nor would it necessarily be wise, even from a fan
              standpoint. Then again, if SJG has the time and cash to spend on
              such an obvious money sink as a miniature casting product line for a
              largely defuct system from the 80's, then maybe BFD has a shot in
              the dark.
            • plasmoid_dk
              Hi Smacinwo, always happy to hear about other INWO players :) I totally agree that SubG was a poor joke . Personally I don t think that any of the cards were
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
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                Hi Smacinwo,
                always happy to hear about other INWO players :)

                I totally agree that SubG was a poor "joke".
                Personally I don't think that any of the cards were broken (though
                there is a very powerful plotr or two) - and I actually like a lot
                of the cards for what they do. It would just have been so much
                cooler if they hadn't been CotSG-based.

                My INWO friends dislike the cards for being nonsensical and
                decidedly unfunny. We all got into INWO because of the whole
                political satire thing, and CotSG definately isn't it.

                Add to this the fact that it sucked as a stand-alone game, which is
                what it was marketed as, and you've got a bad expansion.

                Mind you, we weren't too fond of the assassins set either. We all
                love group based decks, and Assassins had few interesting groups -
                and none of them common. And the common plots weren't even that
                interesting!
                Zaps, paralyzes, freezes? ZZzzzZZ Zzz!

                My dream expansion would contain this in 1 box:
                The 100 BFD cards
                The 100 Assassins cards
                The ~15 German Uniques

                I would definately buy 2 of these, and I know others who would too.
                This box would definately contain stuff both for the collector and
                the active player.
                Cheers
                Martin
              • smacinwo
                ... Well, I guess it wasn t that they wewre broken, it s that they were...well boring. Aside from about maybe 10%-15% of the cards, most of the Plots and
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
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                  > Personally I don't think that any of the cards were broken (though
                  > there is a very powerful plotr or two) - and I actually like a lot
                  > of the cards for what they do. It would just have been so much
                  > cooler if they hadn't been CotSG-based.
                  >
                  > My INWO friends dislike the cards for being nonsensical and
                  > decidedly unfunny. We all got into INWO because of the whole
                  > political satire thing, and CotSG definately isn't it.

                  Well, I guess it wasn't that they wewre broken, it's that they
                  were...well boring. Aside from about maybe 10%-15% of the cards,
                  most of the Plots and Groups were simple rehashes of cards that are
                  already made. This, of course, was necessary since CotSG was a
                  standalone game, so stuff like "Murphy's Law" was translated into a
                  different CotSB-based card with the same ability (and, usually, a
                  slightly different cost). Yes, the primary selling point of INWO
                  (and, I might add, Illuminati) was the political satire. And CotSG
                  just blew.

                  > Mind you, we weren't too fond of the assassins set either. We all
                  > love group based decks, and Assassins had few interesting groups -
                  > and none of them common. And the common plots weren't even that
                  > interesting!
                  > Zaps, paralyzes, freezes? ZZzzzZZ Zzz!

                  Actually, aside from the "broken" cards, Assassins was welcome in
                  our group, because it filled in a few gaps and left a lot of new
                  options. I do wish, like you, of course, that more Groups were
                  added, though I'm also glad they weren't Common (I have enough
                  copies of the Telephone Psychics, thank you, and I don't need an
                  equal number of Swingers).

                  I, personally, like Zaps, Freezes, and Paralysises (eses?) but find
                  they're too expensive to power. If a few more Plot cards/special
                  abilities allowed different ways to power these types of cards, I
                  think they'd be viable.

                  > My dream expansion would contain this in 1 box:
                  > The 100 BFD cards
                  > The 100 Assassins cards
                  > The ~15 German Uniques

                  I agree. And I know plenty that will shell out the cash for such a
                  set. Likewise, I don't mind if they add CotSB cards, but I'd only
                  welcome them if they were "translated"--i.e., they were converted
                  from CotSB to political satire, which, quite frankly, wouldn't be
                  *that* hard to do. As much as I dislike CotSB, there *were* a few
                  good cards in the set.
                • plasmoid_dk
                  Hi again, I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to be worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not to run the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 19, 2004
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                    Hi again,
                    I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to be
                    worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not to
                    run the discussion in 2 places. I hope you are on the list too.

                    Everyone is welcome to give feedback or create their own list.
                    If you are not on the inwo mailing list, then you can see past
                    messages here:
                    http://www.sjgames.com/pipermail/inwo-list/

                    Cheers
                    Martin :)
                  • Tim Gatewood
                    Dear Martin, Okay, it has taken me several minutes to back-trace this message topic to find this one message that spells out what the BFD deck is. (I thought
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 22, 2004
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                      Dear Martin,

                      Okay, it has taken me several minutes to back-trace this message
                      topic to find this one message that spells out what the "BFD deck"
                      is. (I thought it might be the Big F*ing Deck, but that is the One
                      With Everything- grin.) For clarity's sake, maybe we could all agree
                      to avoid using initials that refer back to messages from 7 months
                      ago? Please !

                      I called myself keeping up with all the rumors about INWO and
                      Illuminati the game, and I had never heard of the Bavarian Fire Drill
                      deck. It does appear that there is a new INWO-based deck coming out
                      (see the SJ Games website) - but nothing is said about BFD. What can
                      you tell us (me) about it?

                      And, no, the game is not "dead" -- it just requires a certain
                      awareness of politics for the satire to be meaningful, and a certain
                      twisted mentality to get the jokes. In short, it is not for the
                      average "rule player" gamer, nor for the MTV-generation computer
                      gamer who expects lights, bells, whistles, and impossibly-built-yet-
                      scantily-clad females in their games.

                      -- Tim G in Memphis, the land of dead and living Kings and Pyramids,
                      an Illuminati player since 1985 or so

                      ***********
                      --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                      <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi all,
                      > is it just me or is INWO finally dead in the water.
                      >
                      > Was it because Assassins was weak?
                      > Was it because SubGenius was worse?
                      > Was it because Bavarian Fire Drill never came out?
                      > Or was it simply because the learning curve was too steep?
                      >
                      > You tell me,
                      > if anyone is still here that is :/
                      > Martin
                    • smacinwo
                      ... can ... The game promoted on the INWO home page is Illuminati: Crime Lords, which is not compatible with either Illuminati or INWO. It is designed as a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 22, 2004
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                        > It does appear that there is a new INWO-based deck coming out
                        > (see the SJ Games website) - but nothing is said about BFD. What
                        can
                        > you tell us (me) about it?

                        The game promoted on the INWO home page is Illuminati: Crime Lords,
                        which is not compatible with either Illuminati or INWO. It is
                        designed as a standalone game, much like the horrid SubGenius, and
                        it uses many of the same mechanics as Illuminati and INWO, but it is
                        an entirely different game.

                        There *is* a page for BFD, but it's less than informative:

                        http://www.sjgames.com/inwo/bfd.html

                        Also, Steve Jackson has gone on record stating that INWO is no
                        longer being actively supported. Granted, Deluxe INWO came out after
                        he said that, so perhaps the interest in Deluxe INWO will tell him
                        whether it's worth releasing BFD. (Deluxe INWO is, in fact, out of
                        print, and did so in what seems to be a short amount of time.
                        Whether that is due to hightened interest or a simple clearing out
                        of the existing stock, I don't know.)

                        > And, no, the game is not "dead" -- it just requires a certain
                        > awareness of politics for the satire to be meaningful, and a
                        certain
                        > twisted mentality to get the jokes. In short, it is not for the
                        > average "rule player" gamer, nor for the MTV-generation computer
                        > gamer who expects lights, bells, whistles, and impossibly-built-
                        yet-
                        > scantily-clad females in their games.

                        I'll say it's one of the most intelligent games out there, and yet
                        still fun...which might be part of its apparent lull. It's good
                        social satire, but it can be dated, and the cards desperately need
                        to be updated to keep it fresh. Unfortunately, the market draw
                        of "updating" the cards is largely expensive for a game with such a
                        dwindling fan base.

                        Although I still expect impossible-built-yet-scandily-clad females
                        in all of my games.
                      • plasmoid_dk
                        Hi Smac, ... What? Aw man :/ I recently sold an INWO article to Pyramid and decided to get paid in store credit just to get Deluxe INWO. Then they sat on my
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 23, 2004
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                          Hi Smac,
                          >Deluxe INWO is, in fact, out of print, and did so in what seems to
                          >be a short amount of time.

                          What? Aw man :/
                          I recently sold an INWO article to Pyramid and decided to get paid
                          in store credit just to get Deluxe INWO. Then they sat on my voucher
                          for a few months, and now you're telling me it's out of print.
                          *sigh*

                          Martin
                        • smacinwo
                          ... be ... to ... Thanks, Martin. I agree mostly with your choices with cards to keep, though personally I would just drop the SubGenius attribute and all
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 25, 2004
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                            --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi again,
                            > I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to
                            be
                            > worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not
                            to
                            > run the discussion in 2 places. I hope you are on the list too.
                            >
                            > Everyone is welcome to give feedback or create their own list.
                            > If you are not on the inwo mailing list, then you can see past
                            > messages here:
                            > http://www.sjgames.com/pipermail/inwo-list/
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > Martin :)

                            Thanks, Martin. I agree mostly with your choices with cards to keep,
                            though personally I would just drop the SubGenius attribute and all
                            cards that deal directly with just affecting SubGenius groups.

                            "Translating" the cards are a bit harder than I thought, especially
                            if we're trying to keep the same Power/Alignments/Attributes/etc. I
                            have made a few changes, but not many, and I've noted these changes
                            and other alternate ideas below the cards.

                            I'm certainly not going to do each one--in fact, below are only six.
                            I'll leave you all to do the others.) By no means are
                            these "translations" all that good--I did it in about ten minutes
                            pretty much off the top of my head--so please add your own ideas,
                            changes, etc.

                            ---

                            Name: Roswell
                            Type: Place
                            Text: If an attack to destroy against this group succeeds, they are
                            returned to the owning player's hand and do not count as destroyed.
                            Alignments: None
                            Attributes: Space
                            Power: 5/5
                            Resistance: 5
                            Arrows: L, R, B

                            [This was turned into a Place; the Xists are an Organization. This
                            makes its large Power (this group has the largest Global Power for
                            an Organization except for the Democrats) a little bit weaker,
                            though quite frankly it's still out of proportion. I would lower it
                            to maybe 3/3 and give it an actual useful ability.]

                            Name: Church of Middle America (same title)
                            Type: Organization
                            Text: Any Straight or Conservative group that directly controls the
                            Church of Middle America gets +2 to its Power (and Global Power, if
                            it already had it).
                            Alignments: Straight, Conservative, Peaceful
                            Attributes: Church
                            Power: 3/1
                            Resistance: 4
                            Arrows: L, R

                            Name: Blogs (replaces Divine Mail Order)
                            Type: Organization
                            Text: You may spend its action to draw a Plot card. You may spend
                            its action, along with an Illuminati action, to draw three Plot
                            cards.
                            Alignments: Corporate
                            Attributes: Media, Computer
                            Power: 2
                            Resistance: 3
                            Arrows: L, R, B

                            [Added the Computer attribute. www.subgenius.com would seem to be a
                            better "translation," but since that card's special ability is
                            already duplicated in the original INWO I don't see much of a need
                            to translate it. I thought about "Daily Newspapers" as an
                            alternative but it didn't seem conspiratorial enough to suggest,
                            though it could work like the Local Police Departments and be unable
                            to be destroyed.]

                            Name: Raeliens (replaces League for Obvious Decency)
                            Type: Organization
                            Text: By spending their action, you may force a player to return two
                            exposed Plots to the top of the owning player's Plot deck.
                            Alignments: Weird, Conservative
                            Attributes: N/A
                            Power: 1
                            Resistance: 3
                            Arrows: None

                            [They should probably also be Church. I'm not sure if I would
                            consider them Conservative, either, though they are definitely
                            Weird. This group should have a better special ability, though.]

                            Name: Utah (replaces Speakers in Tongues)
                            Type: Place
                            Text: You get a +3 for any attempt to control a Church group.
                            Alignments: Weird, Conservative, Fanatic
                            Attributes: N/A
                            Power: 1
                            Resistance: 3
                            Arrows: None

                            [This was also turned into a Place. I'm not sure if I would consider
                            Utah "Weird" though, and I hesitate to just make the Group
                            the "Mormons". I can't think of any popular religion that would have
                            a wide enough influence to grant a bonus to any attempt to control a
                            Church but that is also out of mainstream enough to be considered
                            Weird. If we dropped "Weird" we probably can come up with some good
                            alternatives.]

                            Name: Drug Informants (replaces S.L.A.K.)
                            Type: Organization
                            Text: If this group does not have an Action Token at the beginning
                            of any player's turn, they get one.
                            Alignments: Violent, Fanatic
                            Attributes: N/A
                            Power: 2
                            Resistance: 5
                            Arrows: B

                            [I'd like to add something like "School of Protest,"
                            or "Protestors," but that's an obviously made up name. There's a
                            cottage industry, at least in America and Europe, of people who hold
                            seminars and classes to protest things like the IMF and other global
                            organizations; this was most prominent for Americans during the
                            Seattle protests a few years ago. It's actually quite an advanced
                            network of people, and it's ripe for a conspiracy theory, but
                            there's no actual name or organization that is funny/well-known
                            enough to translate or parody. Someday there may.]
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