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Dead dead dead

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  • plasmoid_dk
    Hi all, is it just me or is INWO finally dead in the water. Was it because Assassins was weak? Was it because SubGenius was worse? Was it because Bavarian Fire
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 27, 2003
      Hi all,
      is it just me or is INWO finally dead in the water.

      Was it because Assassins was weak?
      Was it because SubGenius was worse?
      Was it because Bavarian Fire Drill never came out?
      Or was it simply because the learning curve was too steep?

      You tell me,
      if anyone is still here that is :/
      Martin
    • byerskr
      Bringing up and old subject. I don t think INWO is dead but I don t understand why BFD wasn t put out when Brainwash and other supplements were put out for
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 14, 2003
        Bringing up and old subject.

        I don't think INWO is dead but I don't understand why BFD wasn't put
        out when Brainwash and other supplements were put out for Illuminati.

        I don't think it would be a big deal if SJG would just put out
        something as they have to have the set designed. If they don't put
        something out then nothing more can really happen.

        There was discussion about putting out a new Handbook which I wish
        would happen. Heck I would help if it meant seeing it get out to the
        public just to get it out.

        I have some friends who won't play until the next set comes out. I
        am in the process of trying to get things running here where I am
        now. But I could use a little help from SJG by having something new
        out.

        I don't think the supplements were weak. But other games have foils
        and such so they will attract some more attention.

        Keith Byers
      • Gary Groeneweg
        What is this Brainwash that I keep hearing about? Are there NEW inwo supplements?! Really? http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 15, 2003
          What is this Brainwash that I keep hearing about? Are
          there NEW inwo supplements?! Really?

          http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals
          New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.
        • xaaronus
          ... Unfortunately no, Brainwash is a supplement for Deluxe Illuminati. The Boxed game. It s fun but I d rather have more INWO.
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 16, 2003
            --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, Gary Groeneweg
            <groeneweg72@y...> wrote:
            > What is this Brainwash that I keep hearing about? Are
            > there NEW inwo supplements?! Really?

            Unfortunately no, Brainwash is a supplement for Deluxe Illuminati.
            The Boxed game. It's fun but I'd rather have more INWO.
          • The Warbuilder
            Agreed...and 100 of those players are in Bavaria. So... Warbuilder ... From: plasmoid_dk To:
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
              Agreed...and 100 of those players are in Bavaria. So...

              Warbuilder

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "plasmoid_dk" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              To: <illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 10:52 AM
              Subject: [Illuminati New World Order] Re: Dead dead dead


              > Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
              > That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.
              >
              > It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
              > just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
              > fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
              > I mean, how many people are still playing?
              > 200?
              >
              > Martin
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > illuminatinewworldorder-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • plasmoid_dk
              Perhaps SJGames could release the BFD on ccgworkshop. That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy. It s really annoying that there is a finished set
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
                Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
                That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.

                It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
                just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
                fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
                I mean, how many people are still playing?
                200?

                Martin
              • byerskr
                If he builds it they will come. It happened before and it will happen again. I know that I am in the process of getting a group going here again and they will
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 23, 2003
                  If he builds it they will come. It happened before and it will
                  happen again.

                  I know that I am in the process of getting a group going here again
                  and they will buy some boxes. It may not be everything profit-wise,
                  but SJG could at least let people get in in files and tell them how
                  to use the empty cards to put them on.

                  Keith Byers
                • smacinwo
                  ... Actually, I think a lot more play than that...I was at a wedding reception, and the topic came around to gaming, and I casually mentioned INWO...and two of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
                    --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                    <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > Perhaps SJGames could "release" the BFD on ccgworkshop.
                    > That would certainly have me signing up in a jiffy.
                    >
                    > It's really annoying that there is a finished set out there that
                    > just isn't published. On the other hand, if they did it the old
                    > fashion way they would probably do so with a loss.
                    > I mean, how many people are still playing?
                    > 200?
                    >
                    > Martin

                    Actually, I think a lot more play than that...I was at a wedding
                    reception, and the topic came around to gaming, and I casually
                    mentioned INWO...and two of the people there (whom I had never met)
                    played the game. We talked about it for fifteen minutes or so.
                    (Unfortunately, they live far away...but then again, that's two more
                    cabals that might be starting back up.) This was a about three
                    months ago, and that's not bad for a 10-year-old game.

                    I don't expect SJG to release BFD. Let's face it--it will be a loss.
                    There's one reason for this--SubGenius. SubGenius has to be the
                    worst thing that ever happened to INWO, and has killed off any
                    chance of a supplement. SubGenius was *not* a financial success, and
                    anyone of Steve Jacksons' business savvy should have known that. The
                    Church of the SubGeius has a very small audience. INWO also has a
                    fairly small audience. Mixing both of them together spells disaster,
                    since you're probably only to get sales when those two markets
                    overlap, and for two niche markets, anyone could have seen the
                    impending financial loss happen. (I, personally, find the cards
                    redudant, uncreative, broken, and--dare I say--offensive. One of our
                    friends bought it. We looked at it, and we dumped it.) INWO had mass
                    appeal (well, for gaming) because the subject of the cards were well-
                    known to most people--Bill Clinton, the Vatican, etc. SubGenius was
                    the opposite of that--trying to force INWO fans into caring about 97
                    cards that are barely understood outside of the context of the
                    Church. What a stupid, stupid waste of time.

                    However, I *do* think that a conspiracy game *could* be profitable
                    if marketed correctly. In this post-9/11 world, there will be plenty
                    of "controversial" groups and cards that could generate some word-of-
                    mouth and hook a lot of curiosity-seekers, like Al-Quaeda. (I'm not
                    saying such cards would be a good idea, but they are legitimate
                    targets for conspiracy.)

                    However, just releasing an expansion probably wouldn't work. Re-
                    releasing the whole mess (INWO and Assassins and BFD, and mayble
                    renaming and culling the best 10-20% from SubGenius) would be the
                    most likely financial success, but also the riskiest.

                    [And--I might add--one could say, "well, they did that already--it's
                    called Deluxe Illuminati. I think there's a lot of people out there
                    who would say INWO is better mechanically than Illuminati, and some
                    would say just the opposide. I think marketing it as
                    a "customizable" game, though not necessarily a "collectable" game
                    may or may not be a good move. Everyone has their own One Big Deck?
                    Not a bad idea....)

                    Granted, this is advice with someone with 0% experience in the
                    gaming industry, one known for a small profit margin and little room
                    for costly mistakes, so SJG not releasing an expansion for a 10-year-
                    old game from a largely collapsed game format is not exactly a
                    surprise,nor would it necessarily be wise, even from a fan
                    standpoint. Then again, if SJG has the time and cash to spend on
                    such an obvious money sink as a miniature casting product line for a
                    largely defuct system from the 80's, then maybe BFD has a shot in
                    the dark.
                  • plasmoid_dk
                    Hi Smacinwo, always happy to hear about other INWO players :) I totally agree that SubG was a poor joke . Personally I don t think that any of the cards were
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
                      Hi Smacinwo,
                      always happy to hear about other INWO players :)

                      I totally agree that SubG was a poor "joke".
                      Personally I don't think that any of the cards were broken (though
                      there is a very powerful plotr or two) - and I actually like a lot
                      of the cards for what they do. It would just have been so much
                      cooler if they hadn't been CotSG-based.

                      My INWO friends dislike the cards for being nonsensical and
                      decidedly unfunny. We all got into INWO because of the whole
                      political satire thing, and CotSG definately isn't it.

                      Add to this the fact that it sucked as a stand-alone game, which is
                      what it was marketed as, and you've got a bad expansion.

                      Mind you, we weren't too fond of the assassins set either. We all
                      love group based decks, and Assassins had few interesting groups -
                      and none of them common. And the common plots weren't even that
                      interesting!
                      Zaps, paralyzes, freezes? ZZzzzZZ Zzz!

                      My dream expansion would contain this in 1 box:
                      The 100 BFD cards
                      The 100 Assassins cards
                      The ~15 German Uniques

                      I would definately buy 2 of these, and I know others who would too.
                      This box would definately contain stuff both for the collector and
                      the active player.
                      Cheers
                      Martin
                    • smacinwo
                      ... Well, I guess it wasn t that they wewre broken, it s that they were...well boring. Aside from about maybe 10%-15% of the cards, most of the Plots and
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 18, 2004
                        > Personally I don't think that any of the cards were broken (though
                        > there is a very powerful plotr or two) - and I actually like a lot
                        > of the cards for what they do. It would just have been so much
                        > cooler if they hadn't been CotSG-based.
                        >
                        > My INWO friends dislike the cards for being nonsensical and
                        > decidedly unfunny. We all got into INWO because of the whole
                        > political satire thing, and CotSG definately isn't it.

                        Well, I guess it wasn't that they wewre broken, it's that they
                        were...well boring. Aside from about maybe 10%-15% of the cards,
                        most of the Plots and Groups were simple rehashes of cards that are
                        already made. This, of course, was necessary since CotSG was a
                        standalone game, so stuff like "Murphy's Law" was translated into a
                        different CotSB-based card with the same ability (and, usually, a
                        slightly different cost). Yes, the primary selling point of INWO
                        (and, I might add, Illuminati) was the political satire. And CotSG
                        just blew.

                        > Mind you, we weren't too fond of the assassins set either. We all
                        > love group based decks, and Assassins had few interesting groups -
                        > and none of them common. And the common plots weren't even that
                        > interesting!
                        > Zaps, paralyzes, freezes? ZZzzzZZ Zzz!

                        Actually, aside from the "broken" cards, Assassins was welcome in
                        our group, because it filled in a few gaps and left a lot of new
                        options. I do wish, like you, of course, that more Groups were
                        added, though I'm also glad they weren't Common (I have enough
                        copies of the Telephone Psychics, thank you, and I don't need an
                        equal number of Swingers).

                        I, personally, like Zaps, Freezes, and Paralysises (eses?) but find
                        they're too expensive to power. If a few more Plot cards/special
                        abilities allowed different ways to power these types of cards, I
                        think they'd be viable.

                        > My dream expansion would contain this in 1 box:
                        > The 100 BFD cards
                        > The 100 Assassins cards
                        > The ~15 German Uniques

                        I agree. And I know plenty that will shell out the cash for such a
                        set. Likewise, I don't mind if they add CotSB cards, but I'd only
                        welcome them if they were "translated"--i.e., they were converted
                        from CotSB to political satire, which, quite frankly, wouldn't be
                        *that* hard to do. As much as I dislike CotSB, there *were* a few
                        good cards in the set.
                      • plasmoid_dk
                        Hi again, I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to be worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not to run the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 19, 2004
                          Hi again,
                          I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to be
                          worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not to
                          run the discussion in 2 places. I hope you are on the list too.

                          Everyone is welcome to give feedback or create their own list.
                          If you are not on the inwo mailing list, then you can see past
                          messages here:
                          http://www.sjgames.com/pipermail/inwo-list/

                          Cheers
                          Martin :)
                        • Tim Gatewood
                          Dear Martin, Okay, it has taken me several minutes to back-trace this message topic to find this one message that spells out what the BFD deck is. (I thought
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 22, 2004
                            Dear Martin,

                            Okay, it has taken me several minutes to back-trace this message
                            topic to find this one message that spells out what the "BFD deck"
                            is. (I thought it might be the Big F*ing Deck, but that is the One
                            With Everything- grin.) For clarity's sake, maybe we could all agree
                            to avoid using initials that refer back to messages from 7 months
                            ago? Please !

                            I called myself keeping up with all the rumors about INWO and
                            Illuminati the game, and I had never heard of the Bavarian Fire Drill
                            deck. It does appear that there is a new INWO-based deck coming out
                            (see the SJ Games website) - but nothing is said about BFD. What can
                            you tell us (me) about it?

                            And, no, the game is not "dead" -- it just requires a certain
                            awareness of politics for the satire to be meaningful, and a certain
                            twisted mentality to get the jokes. In short, it is not for the
                            average "rule player" gamer, nor for the MTV-generation computer
                            gamer who expects lights, bells, whistles, and impossibly-built-yet-
                            scantily-clad females in their games.

                            -- Tim G in Memphis, the land of dead and living Kings and Pyramids,
                            an Illuminati player since 1985 or so

                            ***********
                            --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi all,
                            > is it just me or is INWO finally dead in the water.
                            >
                            > Was it because Assassins was weak?
                            > Was it because SubGenius was worse?
                            > Was it because Bavarian Fire Drill never came out?
                            > Or was it simply because the learning curve was too steep?
                            >
                            > You tell me,
                            > if anyone is still here that is :/
                            > Martin
                          • smacinwo
                            ... can ... The game promoted on the INWO home page is Illuminati: Crime Lords, which is not compatible with either Illuminati or INWO. It is designed as a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 22, 2004
                              > It does appear that there is a new INWO-based deck coming out
                              > (see the SJ Games website) - but nothing is said about BFD. What
                              can
                              > you tell us (me) about it?

                              The game promoted on the INWO home page is Illuminati: Crime Lords,
                              which is not compatible with either Illuminati or INWO. It is
                              designed as a standalone game, much like the horrid SubGenius, and
                              it uses many of the same mechanics as Illuminati and INWO, but it is
                              an entirely different game.

                              There *is* a page for BFD, but it's less than informative:

                              http://www.sjgames.com/inwo/bfd.html

                              Also, Steve Jackson has gone on record stating that INWO is no
                              longer being actively supported. Granted, Deluxe INWO came out after
                              he said that, so perhaps the interest in Deluxe INWO will tell him
                              whether it's worth releasing BFD. (Deluxe INWO is, in fact, out of
                              print, and did so in what seems to be a short amount of time.
                              Whether that is due to hightened interest or a simple clearing out
                              of the existing stock, I don't know.)

                              > And, no, the game is not "dead" -- it just requires a certain
                              > awareness of politics for the satire to be meaningful, and a
                              certain
                              > twisted mentality to get the jokes. In short, it is not for the
                              > average "rule player" gamer, nor for the MTV-generation computer
                              > gamer who expects lights, bells, whistles, and impossibly-built-
                              yet-
                              > scantily-clad females in their games.

                              I'll say it's one of the most intelligent games out there, and yet
                              still fun...which might be part of its apparent lull. It's good
                              social satire, but it can be dated, and the cards desperately need
                              to be updated to keep it fresh. Unfortunately, the market draw
                              of "updating" the cards is largely expensive for a game with such a
                              dwindling fan base.

                              Although I still expect impossible-built-yet-scandily-clad females
                              in all of my games.
                            • plasmoid_dk
                              Hi Smac, ... What? Aw man :/ I recently sold an INWO article to Pyramid and decided to get paid in store credit just to get Deluxe INWO. Then they sat on my
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 23, 2004
                                Hi Smac,
                                >Deluxe INWO is, in fact, out of print, and did so in what seems to
                                >be a short amount of time.

                                What? Aw man :/
                                I recently sold an INWO article to Pyramid and decided to get paid
                                in store credit just to get Deluxe INWO. Then they sat on my voucher
                                for a few months, and now you're telling me it's out of print.
                                *sigh*

                                Martin
                              • smacinwo
                                ... be ... to ... Thanks, Martin. I agree mostly with your choices with cards to keep, though personally I would just drop the SubGenius attribute and all
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 25, 2004
                                  --- In illuminatinewworldorder@yahoogroups.com, plasmoid_dk
                                  <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > Hi again,
                                  > I went ahead and created a list of which CotSG cards I consider to
                                  be
                                  > worth keeping/translating. I posted it to the INWO list so as not
                                  to
                                  > run the discussion in 2 places. I hope you are on the list too.
                                  >
                                  > Everyone is welcome to give feedback or create their own list.
                                  > If you are not on the inwo mailing list, then you can see past
                                  > messages here:
                                  > http://www.sjgames.com/pipermail/inwo-list/
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  > Martin :)

                                  Thanks, Martin. I agree mostly with your choices with cards to keep,
                                  though personally I would just drop the SubGenius attribute and all
                                  cards that deal directly with just affecting SubGenius groups.

                                  "Translating" the cards are a bit harder than I thought, especially
                                  if we're trying to keep the same Power/Alignments/Attributes/etc. I
                                  have made a few changes, but not many, and I've noted these changes
                                  and other alternate ideas below the cards.

                                  I'm certainly not going to do each one--in fact, below are only six.
                                  I'll leave you all to do the others.) By no means are
                                  these "translations" all that good--I did it in about ten minutes
                                  pretty much off the top of my head--so please add your own ideas,
                                  changes, etc.

                                  ---

                                  Name: Roswell
                                  Type: Place
                                  Text: If an attack to destroy against this group succeeds, they are
                                  returned to the owning player's hand and do not count as destroyed.
                                  Alignments: None
                                  Attributes: Space
                                  Power: 5/5
                                  Resistance: 5
                                  Arrows: L, R, B

                                  [This was turned into a Place; the Xists are an Organization. This
                                  makes its large Power (this group has the largest Global Power for
                                  an Organization except for the Democrats) a little bit weaker,
                                  though quite frankly it's still out of proportion. I would lower it
                                  to maybe 3/3 and give it an actual useful ability.]

                                  Name: Church of Middle America (same title)
                                  Type: Organization
                                  Text: Any Straight or Conservative group that directly controls the
                                  Church of Middle America gets +2 to its Power (and Global Power, if
                                  it already had it).
                                  Alignments: Straight, Conservative, Peaceful
                                  Attributes: Church
                                  Power: 3/1
                                  Resistance: 4
                                  Arrows: L, R

                                  Name: Blogs (replaces Divine Mail Order)
                                  Type: Organization
                                  Text: You may spend its action to draw a Plot card. You may spend
                                  its action, along with an Illuminati action, to draw three Plot
                                  cards.
                                  Alignments: Corporate
                                  Attributes: Media, Computer
                                  Power: 2
                                  Resistance: 3
                                  Arrows: L, R, B

                                  [Added the Computer attribute. www.subgenius.com would seem to be a
                                  better "translation," but since that card's special ability is
                                  already duplicated in the original INWO I don't see much of a need
                                  to translate it. I thought about "Daily Newspapers" as an
                                  alternative but it didn't seem conspiratorial enough to suggest,
                                  though it could work like the Local Police Departments and be unable
                                  to be destroyed.]

                                  Name: Raeliens (replaces League for Obvious Decency)
                                  Type: Organization
                                  Text: By spending their action, you may force a player to return two
                                  exposed Plots to the top of the owning player's Plot deck.
                                  Alignments: Weird, Conservative
                                  Attributes: N/A
                                  Power: 1
                                  Resistance: 3
                                  Arrows: None

                                  [They should probably also be Church. I'm not sure if I would
                                  consider them Conservative, either, though they are definitely
                                  Weird. This group should have a better special ability, though.]

                                  Name: Utah (replaces Speakers in Tongues)
                                  Type: Place
                                  Text: You get a +3 for any attempt to control a Church group.
                                  Alignments: Weird, Conservative, Fanatic
                                  Attributes: N/A
                                  Power: 1
                                  Resistance: 3
                                  Arrows: None

                                  [This was also turned into a Place. I'm not sure if I would consider
                                  Utah "Weird" though, and I hesitate to just make the Group
                                  the "Mormons". I can't think of any popular religion that would have
                                  a wide enough influence to grant a bonus to any attempt to control a
                                  Church but that is also out of mainstream enough to be considered
                                  Weird. If we dropped "Weird" we probably can come up with some good
                                  alternatives.]

                                  Name: Drug Informants (replaces S.L.A.K.)
                                  Type: Organization
                                  Text: If this group does not have an Action Token at the beginning
                                  of any player's turn, they get one.
                                  Alignments: Violent, Fanatic
                                  Attributes: N/A
                                  Power: 2
                                  Resistance: 5
                                  Arrows: B

                                  [I'd like to add something like "School of Protest,"
                                  or "Protestors," but that's an obviously made up name. There's a
                                  cottage industry, at least in America and Europe, of people who hold
                                  seminars and classes to protest things like the IMF and other global
                                  organizations; this was most prominent for Americans during the
                                  Seattle protests a few years ago. It's actually quite an advanced
                                  network of people, and it's ripe for a conspiracy theory, but
                                  there's no actual name or organization that is funny/well-known
                                  enough to translate or parody. Someday there may.]
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