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Totally baffled by C60 rebuild

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  • Gary Budd Sr
    Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every measurement.All rod and
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
      Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing everything by the book.
      Any help would be appreciated
      Gary
    • Mike Sloane
      Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use assembly grease , which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle grease or even STP
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
        Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
        "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
        grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
        crankshaft will be very hard to turn.

        When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
        dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.

        Just some thoughts,

        Mike

        On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
        > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
        > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
        > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
        > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
        > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
        > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
        > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
        > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
        > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
        > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
        > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
      • Gary Budd Sr
        Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can t remember name of company that supplied the ones i
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
          Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can't remember name of company that supplied the ones i bought.Thank you for your assistance.

          --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
          >
          > Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
          > "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
          > grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
          > crankshaft will be very hard to turn.
          >
          > When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
          > dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.
          >
          > Just some thoughts,
          >
          > Mike
          >
          > On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
          > > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
          > > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
          > > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
          > > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
          > > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
          > > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
          > > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
          > > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
          > > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
          > > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
          > > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
          >
        • tpstone3756@yahoo.com
          Hi Gary might be worth some plastic gauge to see if you got oversized bearings in a standard size box. Also did you end gap the rings? If you prelubed
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
            Hi Gary might be worth some plastic gauge to see if you got oversized bearings in a standard size box. Also did you end gap the rings? If you prelubed everything then it's got to be something else. I've rebuilt a few motors over the years and they are always a little tight until breakin but not like you describe. Back off the bearing caps if it frees up wrong bearings.

            Sent from my iPod

            On Dec 6, 2012, at 1:07 PM, "Gary Budd Sr" <gbuddsr1@...> wrote:

             

            Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can't remember name of company that supplied the ones i bought.Thank you for your assistance.

            --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
            >
            > Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
            > "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
            > grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
            > crankshaft will be very hard to turn.
            >
            > When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
            > dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.
            >
            > Just some thoughts,
            >
            > Mike
            >
            > On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
            > > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
            > > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
            > > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
            > > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
            > > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
            > > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
            > > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
            > > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
            > > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
            > > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
            > > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
            >

          • thmcdowell1@yahoo.com
            The way i usually do it is torque main cap and thrust the crank and spin it one at a time same with the rods. This should tell u where the tight spot is. Hope
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
              The way i usually do it is torque main cap and thrust the crank and spin it one at a time same with the rods. This should tell u where the tight spot is.

              Hope this helps
              Tommy

              Connected by Motorola


              Gary Budd Sr <gbuddsr1@...> wrote:

               

              Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can't remember name of company that supplied the ones i bought.Thank you for your assistance.

              --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:
              >
              > Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
              > "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
              > grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
              > crankshaft will be very hard to turn.
              >
              > When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
              > dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.
              >
              > Just some thoughts,
              >
              > Mike
              >
              > On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
              > > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
              > > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
              > > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
              > > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
              > > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
              > > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
              > > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
              > > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
              > > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
              > > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
              > > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
              >

            • Gary Budd Sr
              Took it apart again.Laid the crank out on the bench and sure enough it s the rod bearings.I attached the rods to the crank on the bench and found them to be
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
                Took it apart again.Laid the crank out on the bench and sure enough it's the rod bearings.I attached the rods to the crank on the bench and found them to be very tight.Fortunately I kept the old bearing,put the old set in and had no problem with movement. Going to take them back and hopefully get a set that are right for the motor.I really do admire you fellas who do this all the time.I've learned allot from the project and the members of this group.
                Again Thank you
                Gary

                --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, "thmcdowell1@..." <thmcdowell1@...> wrote:
                >
                > The way i usually do it is torque main cap and thrust the crank and spin it one at a time same with the rods. This should tell u where the tight spot is.
                >
                > Hope this helps
                > Tommy
                >
                > Connected by Motorola
                >
                > Gary Budd Sr <gbuddsr1@...> wrote:
                >
                > >Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can't remember name of company that supplied the ones i bought.Thank you for your assistance.
                > >
                > >--- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
                > >> "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
                > >> grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
                > >> crankshaft will be very hard to turn.
                > >>
                > >> When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
                > >> dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.
                > >>
                > >> Just some thoughts,
                > >>
                > >> Mike
                > >>
                > >> On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
                > >> > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
                > >> > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
                > >> > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
                > >> > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
                > >> > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
                > >> > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
                > >> > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
                > >> > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
                > >> > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
                > >> > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
                > >> > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                >
              • northcreek2624
                Glad you found the problem.I bet that you were considering replacing all the nuts&bolts with wing nuts :)...Mike.
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 9, 2012
                  Glad you found the problem.I bet that you were considering replacing all the nuts&bolts with "wing nuts":)...Mike.

                  --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Budd Sr" <gbuddsr1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Took it apart again.Laid the crank out on the bench and sure enough it's the rod bearings.I attached the rods to the crank on the bench and found them to be very tight.Fortunately I kept the old bearing,put the old set in and had no problem with movement. Going to take them back and hopefully get a set that are right for the motor.I really do admire you fellas who do this all the time.I've learned allot from the project and the members of this group.
                  > Again Thank you
                  > Gary
                  >
                  > --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, "thmcdowell1@" <thmcdowell1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The way i usually do it is torque main cap and thrust the crank and spin it one at a time same with the rods. This should tell u where the tight spot is.
                  > >
                  > > Hope this helps
                  > > Tommy
                  > >
                  > > Connected by Motorola
                  > >
                  > > Gary Budd Sr <gbuddsr1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >Yes I used assembly grease.It was just suggested to me to try another manufacturer for rod bearings.Can't remember name of company that supplied the ones i bought.Thank you for your assistance.
                  > > >
                  > > >--- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@> wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Did you put some kind of grease on the bearing shells? You can use
                  > > >> "assembly grease", which is sold for that purpose, although regular axle
                  > > >> grease or even STP will do fine. Without some kind of lubricant, the
                  > > >> crankshaft will be very hard to turn.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> When you put the pistons/rings in, did you use lots of oil? Dry rings on
                  > > >> dry cylinders will also make for a lot of friction.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Just some thoughts,
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Mike
                  > > >>
                  > > >> On 12/6/2012 11:35 AM, Gary Budd Sr wrote:
                  > > >> > Bought a LoBoy 185 w/C60 engine.I replaced all bearings and rings,all
                  > > >> > standard size.I have had it apart 20 times double checking every
                  > > >> > measurement.All rod and main bearing caps are in correct
                  > > >> > position.With just the main bearings placed and torqued engine turns
                  > > >> > freely.When rod caps and bearings are placed and torqued it is a big
                  > > >> > struggle to turn it over with breaker bar and socket.I tried this
                  > > >> > morning to see if the starter/generator would turn it,no way.I can
                  > > >> > see towing it but can't see how that is correct.These are suppose to
                  > > >> > be low compression engine.Something is not right and I am becoming
                  > > >> > very frustrated with it.This is my first rebuild and I'm doing
                  > > >> > everything by the book. Any help would be appreciated Gary
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Dale Clift
                  Plasti-Gage is your friend.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 10, 2012
                    Plasti-Gage is your friend.
                  • Gary Budd Sr
                    In my continuing saga of rebuilding the engine,I thought I would bring you all up to today.I did finally get another set of bearings.Same situation as
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                      In my continuing saga of rebuilding the engine,I thought I would bring you all up to today.I did finally get another set of bearings.Same situation as before,to tight.I re-plastic gauged the crank,a ok.Gave up on Monday and took it to an engine building machine shop.They also checked the crank with same result,a ok.The fellow at the shop was confused also and started doing some research himself.He called today to tell me it wasn't the thickness of the bearings it was the width.He found that you have to get the part number from the rod and match that with the bearings needed.According to him there are two different size rod bearings for the c60.He is going to show me what the difference is when they come in.As I find out more i will post here.
                      Gary
                      --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Dale Clift <daleclift@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Plasti-Gage is your friend.
                      >
                    • ebony51@frontiernet.net
                      I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience. I have been getting an oil leak at the bearing
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                        I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience.

                        I have been getting an oil leak at the bearing cap just below the clutch of my Cub 154. I finally got around to taking it off today (kind of a bear to get to the four bolts out). I have new gasket. Since I only want to do this once, I thought I would ask about whether or not I should use a gasket sealant on the gasket or not? If yes, what is recommended?

                        This is the bearing cap below the clutch and is on the tranmission housing. The part number is Cub Cadet IH-350845-R1; CAP, BEARING RETAINER.

                        And is there an easy way to put this cap back on? Took me quite awhile to get it off and I am not sure my fingers will get up in there to put the bolts back in easily?

                        The leak has been a problem since oil gets on the mower belt and is thrown everywhere.

                        I do plan on cleaning and polishing up both surfaces pretty well. Any other advice?

                        Thanks

                        Larry Hardesty

                        Larry Hardesty
                        Kearney, Nebraska
                      • thmcdowell1@yahoo.com
                        Wow thanks for the info Please keep us updated Thanks Tommy Connected by Motorola
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                          Wow thanks for the info
                          Please keep us updated

                          Thanks
                          Tommy

                          Connected by Motorola


                          Gary Budd Sr <gbuddsr1@...> wrote:

                           


                          In my continuing saga of rebuilding the engine,I thought I would bring you all up to today.I did finally get another set of bearings.Same situation as before,to tight.I re-plastic gauged the crank,a ok.Gave up on Monday and took it to an engine building machine shop.They also checked the crank with same result,a ok.The fellow at the shop was confused also and started doing some research himself.He called today to tell me it wasn't the thickness of the bearings it was the width.He found that you have to get the part number from the rod and match that with the bearings needed.According to him there are two different size rod bearings for the c60.He is going to show me what the difference is when they come in.As I find out more i will post here.
                          Gary

                          --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Dale Clift <daleclift@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Plasti-Gage is your friend.
                          >

                        • northcreek2624
                          I generally would use a light coat of rtv form a gasket and prefer the highest rated black rtv.In no pressure applications such as this I often eliminate the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                            I generally would use a light coat of rtv form a gasket and prefer the highest rated black rtv.In no pressure applications such as this I often eliminate the gasket entirely with great results as long as the gasket thickness is not an engineered clearance issue.Clean oil free surfaces are a must..Mike.

                            --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, ebony51@... wrote:
                            >
                            > I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience.
                            >
                            > I have been getting an oil leak at the bearing cap just below the clutch of my Cub 154. I finally got around to taking it off today (kind of a bear to get to the four bolts out). I have new gasket. Since I only want to do this once, I thought I would ask about whether or not I should use a gasket sealant on the gasket or not? If yes, what is recommended?
                            >
                            > This is the bearing cap below the clutch and is on the tranmission housing. The part number is Cub Cadet IH-350845-R1; CAP, BEARING RETAINER.
                            >
                            > And is there an easy way to put this cap back on? Took me quite awhile to get it off and I am not sure my fingers will get up in there to put the bolts back in easily?
                            >
                            > The leak has been a problem since oil gets on the mower belt and is thrown everywhere.
                            >
                            > I do plan on cleaning and polishing up both surfaces pretty well. Any other advice?
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            > Larry Hardesty
                            >
                            > Larry Hardesty
                            > Kearney, Nebraska
                            >
                          • ohyeah76
                            ... No problem Larry, you are not the only one who ventures over to other sites! :) All the best with getting the retainer plate back on. Let us all know how
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                              --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, ebony51@... wrote:
                              >
                              > I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience.
                              >
                              >

                              No problem Larry, you are not the only one who ventures over to other sites! :)
                              All the best with getting the retainer plate back on. Let us all know how you faired!
                              -Raymond
                            • thmcdowell1@yahoo.com
                              If u use any at all i would use a non harding sealer and very little will go a long way Tommy Connected by Motorola
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 14, 2012
                                If u use any at all i would use a non harding sealer and very little will go a long way

                                Tommy

                                Connected by Motorola


                                ebony51@... wrote:

                                 

                                I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience.

                                I have been getting an oil leak at the bearing cap just below the clutch of my Cub 154. I finally got around to taking it off today (kind of a bear to get to the four bolts out). I have new gasket. Since I only want to do this once, I thought I would ask about whether or not I should use a gasket sealant on the gasket or not? If yes, what is recommended?

                                This is the bearing cap below the clutch and is on the tranmission housing. The part number is Cub Cadet IH-350845-R1; CAP, BEARING RETAINER.

                                And is there an easy way to put this cap back on? Took me quite awhile to get it off and I am not sure my fingers will get up in there to put the bolts back in easily?

                                The leak has been a problem since oil gets on the mower belt and is thrown everywhere.

                                I do plan on cleaning and polishing up both surfaces pretty well. Any other advice?

                                Thanks

                                Larry Hardesty

                                Larry Hardesty
                                Kearney, Nebraska

                              • ebony51@frontiernet.net
                                Raymond, Thanks, I would never thought of the Indian Head sealant. I have Permatex 1 and 2 around, but done of the Indian Head. Heading into town shortly
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 15, 2012
                                  Raymond, Thanks, I would never thought of the Indian Head sealant. I have Permatex 1 and 2 around, but done of the Indian Head. Heading into town shortly to get it. The lead has been bugging me for quite some time, but hard to get to it....once I think I finally identified where it was coming from. The Cub 154 is a little different to work on than my other old tractors....lots of stuff put into a small space...and hard to get at without taking lots of other stuff off.

                                  The leak got onto my belly mower belt through oil all over under the tractor, plus not being good for the belt. I hope I will finally get it fixed. I will let it sit for awhile and then test it before I put the mower back on. I don't want to be doing this more than once, which is quite enough!

                                  Thanks much.

                                  Larry Hardesty
                                  Kearney, Nebraska

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "ohyeah76" <ohyeah76@...>
                                  To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 12:22:42 AM
                                  Subject: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Re: Gasket sealant question

                                   






                                  --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com , ebony51@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I asked this on another forum this evening, and I thought I would ask it here too. Thanks for your patience.
                                  >
                                  >

                                  No problem Larry, you are not the only one who ventures over to other sites! :)
                                  All the best with getting the retainer plate back on. Let us all know how you faired!
                                  -Raymond
                                • Gary Budd Sr
                                  Got the polished crank and rods with new bearings back today.The machinist showed me the problem with the bearings,the ones I bought (standard size for C60)
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 18, 2012
                                    Got the polished crank and rods with new bearings back today.The machinist showed me the problem with the bearings,the ones I bought (standard size for C60) are wider than the ones I needed.When torqued they rubbed on the rim of the journal.Hope to get it back together in the AM and move on with my project.Thanks again to everyone in this group.
                                    Merry Christmas
                                    Gary -



                                    -- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, "thmcdowell1@..." wrote:

                                    Wow thanks for the info
                                    Please keep us updated

                                    Thanks
                                    Tommy

                                    Connected by Motorola

                                    Gary Budd Sr wrote:


                                    In my continuing saga of rebuilding the engine,I thought I would bring you all up to today.I did finally get another set of bearings.Same situation as before,to tight.I re-plastic gauged the crank,a ok.Gave up on Monday and took it to an engine building machine shop.They also checked the crank with same result,a ok.The fellow at the shop was confused also and started doing some research himself.He called today to tell me it wasn't the thickness of the bearings it was the width.He found that you have to get the part number from the rod and match that with the bearings needed.According to him there are two different size rod bearings for the c60.He is going to show me what the difference is when they come in.As I find out more i will post here.
                                    Gary
                                    --- In ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com, Dale Clift wrote:

                                    Plasti-Gage is your friend.
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.