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Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine

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  • Mike Sloane
    I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space with my tale of
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 9, 2011
      I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the
      list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space
      with my tale of minimal progress.

      My back was bothering me before the end of the year, so I took some time
      off from the tractor and am returning to it.

      I have decided to take Tim's advice and hone the cylinders - I have a
      hone, and it only takes a few minutes on a little engine like the C60,
      so why not?

      But first I decided to take a look a the valves, since I had the head
      off. I figured that if I went through all the trouble to pull the head
      and not look at the valves, that would be silly, especially if they
      turned out to have problems. As it turned out, the valves are all fine.
      I was surprised to see how much lead had been deposited on the exhaust
      valves - obviously the engine had a lot of hours burning leaded gas. I
      thought that by the time the 184 was built in 1979, that leaded gas had
      been phased out in the US. I guess I am wrong. I spent several hours the
      last couple of days looking for my jar of valve lapping compound and had
      pretty much given up hope of finding it and planned to pick up another
      jar later this week. This morning, while looking for something else, I
      spotted the jar, right where put it after doing the valves on the Ford
      2N a couple of years ago. This time I will put it away with the valve
      lapping tool in the hopes that I can't possibly misplace both of them. :-)

      So I lapped the valves and then did my most un-favorite job of putting
      the keepers back on. The problem with the C60 engine is that it is an F
      head, and the area you have to work in is low and not at all spacious. I
      sit on a rolling seat so I don't have to kneel on the concrete. I have a
      tub of very stiff axle grease that I keep for this kind of job - I
      essentially "glue" the keepers back on the valve stems with grease until
      I can release the springs. I only dropped one keeper, and the magnet
      found it quickly in the pile of gasket scrapings under the engine. I am
      sure that none of you ever have something like that happen, as your
      floor under the engine is spotless, and everything that drops can be
      found immediately. Good for you. I still need to find that bolt that
      fell out of the No 2 connecting rod...

      It was getting a little nippy out in the barn, so I decided to set the
      valve gap tomorrow (you don't want to rush these things). I placed an
      order with TM Tractor Parts (my favorite Cub source) for the rings,
      gaskets, fan belt, and top hose and will wait for the UPS man to deliver
      the stuff and then put everything back together.

      I trust everyone else has been keeping busy and warm these days,

      Mike

      On 12/15/2010 2:35 PM, Tim Stone wrote:
      > Hey Mike, keep me posted on your progress. I decided to rebuild the
      > parts tractor I bought for the creeper gear. Burns oil especially under
      > load but otherwise runs fine. Most likely stuck or worn out rings as i
      > suspect this tractor spent its entire life outside. BTW I have no idea
      > of what that spring belongs to. Nothing in that motor I can think of. I
      > will start my tear down pretty soon.
      >
      > Now as for honing the cylinders. I highly recommend it so the ring will
      > seat in. Like you I have rebuilt and built many engines and a few stock
      > car motors. I agree that the new engine tolerances and alloys may
      > eliminate that need on newer motors. Especially the aluminum alloy
      > engines. But this is the good ole fashion cast iron block with hardened
      > steel rings so the old technique in book still applies. Years ago and
      > much younger I skipped that step on a Ford 302 I was in a hurry to get
      > done. The rings never seated and when you stepped on the gas from a dead
      > stop a little puff of blue smoke. Also in between power shifts.
      > Otherwise no smoke. So after a year of running the motor I dropped the
      > pan, pulled the pistons and honed the cylinders and put it back
      > together. And yup they seated.
      >
      > Ahh the lessons of youth.
      >
      > Good luck with the rebuild..
      >
      > Tim S..
      >
    • njdale2000
      Mike, Don t forget to order the new head bolts. My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of them for under $10 (under $15 including
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
        Mike,
        Don't forget to order the new head bolts.

        My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of them for under $10 (under $15 including shipping). One type of them (I think the long ones) were exact length. The other ended up being 1/8" shorter. I don't think that the 1/8" makes any difference (he shaved off .085" off of the head for increase compression anyhow).

        Remember what happened with the little yellow Farmall Loboy !!!

        In doing research on headbolts, I found out that they are not really meant to be used more that 3 or so times anyhow. Each time that you torque them down to final specification - they get 'stretched' a bit. After 3 times or so, they become 'junk' and are very apt to break.

        NJDale
      • Tim Stone
        Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an ah haaa moment as yes
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
          Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and well all the stuff that makes this fun..

          I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)

          Tim S...

          --- On Sun, 1/9/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

          From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
          Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
          To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 5:08 PM

           

          I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the
          list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space
          with my tale of minimal progress.

          My back was bothering me before the end of the year, so I took some time
          off from the tractor and am returning to it.

          I have decided to take Tim's advice and hone the cylinders - I have a
          hone, and it only takes a few minutes on a little engine like the C60,
          so why not?

          But first I decided to take a look a the valves, since I had the head
          off. I figured that if I went through all the trouble to pull the head
          and not look at the valves, that would be silly, especially if they
          turned out to have problems. As it turned out, the valves are all fine.
          I was surprised to see how much lead had been deposited on the exhaust
          valves - obviously the engine had a lot of hours burning leaded gas. I
          thought that by the time the 184 was built in 1979, that leaded gas had
          been phased out in the US. I guess I am wrong. I spent several hours the
          last couple of days looking for my jar of valve lapping compound and had
          pretty much given up hope of finding it and planned to pick up another
          jar later this week. This morning, while looking for something else, I
          spotted the jar, right where put it after doing the valves on the Ford
          2N a couple of years ago. This time I will put it away with the valve
          lapping tool in the hopes that I can't possibly misplace both of them. :-)

          So I lapped the valves and then did my most un-favorite job of putting
          the keepers back on. The problem with the C60 engine is that it is an F
          head, and the area you have to work in is low and not at all spacious. I
          sit on a rolling seat so I don't have to kneel on the concrete. I have a
          tub of very stiff axle grease that I keep for this kind of job - I
          essentially "glue" the keepers back on the valve stems with grease until
          I can release the springs. I only dropped one keeper, and the magnet
          found it quickly in the pile of gasket scrapings under the engine. I am
          sure that none of you ever have something like that happen, as your
          floor under the engine is spotless, and everything that drops can be
          found immediately. Good for you. I still need to find that bolt that
          fell out of the No 2 connecting rod...

          It was getting a little nippy out in the barn, so I decided to set the
          valve gap tomorrow (you don't want to rush these things). I placed an
          order with TM Tractor Parts (my favorite Cub source) for the rings,
          gaskets, fan belt, and top hose and will wait for the UPS man to deliver
          the stuff and then put everything back together.

          I trust everyone else has been keeping busy and warm these days,

          Mike

          On 12/15/2010 2:35 PM, Tim Stone wrote:
          > Hey Mike, keep me posted on your progress. I decided to rebuild the
          > parts tractor I bought for the creeper gear. Burns oil especially under
          > load but otherwise runs fine. Most likely stuck or worn out rings as i
          > suspect this tractor spent its entire life outside. BTW I have no idea
          > of what that spring belongs to. Nothing in that motor I can think of. I
          > will start my tear down pretty soon.
          >
          > Now as for honing the cylinders. I highly recommend it so the ring will
          > seat in. Like you I have rebuilt and built many engines and a few stock
          > car motors. I agree that the new engine tolerances and alloys may
          > eliminate that need on newer motors. Especially the aluminum alloy
          > engines. But this is the good ole fashion cast iron block with hardened
          > steel rings so the old technique in book still applies. Years ago and
          > much younger I skipped that step on a Ford 302 I was in a hurry to get
          > done. The rings never seated and when you stepped on the gas from a dead
          > stop a little puff of blue smoke. Also in between power shifts.
          > Otherwise no smoke. So after a year of running the motor I dropped the
          > pan, pulled the pistons and honed the cylinders and put it back
          > together. And yup they seated.
          >
          > Ahh the lessons of youth.
          >
          > Good luck with the rebuild..
          >
          > Tim S..
          >


        • Mike Sloane
          I will take that into consideration, but I would not suggest using grade 8 bolts for this particular application. The reason is that grade 8 bolts don t
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
            I will take that into consideration, but I would not suggest using grade
            8 bolts for this particular application. The reason is that grade 8
            bolts don't stretch the way grade 5 bolts do, and that is why the proper
            torque for the C-60 engine is something like 35 foot/pounds. If you
            tighten grade 8 bolts to only 35 ft/lbs., they won't hold the head down
            properly. You would have to go to much higher torque, and that would
            stand a good chance of ripping the threads out of the soft cast iron
            block. Again, I am only referring to the old low compression IH C-60
            engine, not a high compression diesel or racing gas engine.

            From what I can tell from the tear-down, this is the first time the
            head has been off this engine, and the head bolts look very clean. If I
            have any problems with them, I will order a complete new set from Case IH.

            Mike

            On 1/10/2011 11:01 AM, njdale2000 wrote:
            > Mike,
            > Don't forget to order the new head bolts.
            >
            > My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of
            > them for under $10 (under $15 including shipping). One type of them (I
            > think the long ones) were exact length. The other ended up being 1/8"
            > shorter. I don't think that the 1/8" makes any difference (he shaved off
            > .085" off of the head for increase compression anyhow).
            >
            > Remember what happened with the little yellow Farmall Loboy !!!
            >
            > In doing research on headbolts, I found out that they are not really
            > meant to be used more that 3 or so times anyhow. Each time that you
            > torque them down to final specification - they get 'stretched' a bit.
            > After 3 times or so, they become 'junk' and are very apt to break.
            >
            > NJDale
          • Mike Sloane
            Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images. Anything in particular you want to see? Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015 as
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
              Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
              Anything in particular you want to see?

              Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service manual,
              and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite tight.
              That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
              and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
              honing.

              Then I cleaned the combustion chambers on the head with drill-mounted
              wire wheels of different sizes, was well as cleaning the head in
              general. Unlike the valves, it didn't take much. I also used a mounted
              stone to clean up some of the rougher parts of the casting around the
              valve area of the head - there were bits of cast iron sticking up into
              the area that could, under the right conditions, get hot enough to
              actually ignite incoming air/gas mixture.

              Then, just to make you guys (and Tim) happy I honed the cylinder bores.
              This is a job that takes longer to set up and take down than to actually
              perform. I used my 1/2" Makita drill because it runs quite slowly, oiled
              up the stones well, and ran the hone up and down the cylinder for about
              30 seconds. I wasn't happy with the results (there was still a little
              glaze left), so I did it again and am satisfied with their appearance. I
              can never get the cylinders as nice looking as the pictures in the
              manuals, but they are good enough for my needs. Hey, this is an old
              tractor, not an airplane engine.

              While I was puttering, I brought the timing marks around on the
              crankshaft pulley, cleaned the area, and marked the two notches with a
              silver Sharpie pen. (I used to do that job with a tiny brush and
              aluminum paint, but a Sharpie is so much faster and easier.) That will
              make timing the engine MUCH easier when I get to that point. I wish I
              could clean up the entire engine area, but it is far too cold here
              (30°F) to roll the tractor outdoors for a bath. There is oily dirt
              everywhere, and I suspect that someday a front crankshaft seal will be
              replaced, but it won't be any time soon...

              Speaking of it being cold, I am working in my 24x48 barn. While I added
              insulation when I built the barn back in the '70s, it certainly doesn't
              have central heating. It has three separate bays, and I keep one of
              those oil filled electric radiators in each bay, set to just keep the
              temperature above freezing. While I am working on a tractor, I goose the
              thermostat up a little and wear Nitrile gloves and an old heavy sweater.
              I am surprised how those thin Nitrile gloves keep my hands warm enough
              to be comfortable (and also not cracked and bleeding the way they used
              to before the invention of Nitrile gloves).

              I have now done as much as I can do (except for finding that darn lost
              bolt) until the parts arrive. It turns out that the top hose is a Case
              IH only part, so I will have to shoot off an order to Carter & Gruenwald
              to see if they have one. All the rest of the needed pieces can come from
              TM Tractor Parts <www.tmtractor.com>

              Mike

              On 1/10/2011 11:40 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
              > Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little
              > workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an
              > ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn
              > floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and
              > well all the stuff that makes this fun..
              >
              > I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)
              >
              > Tim S...
            • Tim Stone
              Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there are any
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there are any tricks). Also my lapping skills aren't the best. Also do you need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines? Also is the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece? As always any rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to do list together..

                Warm Regards
                Tim S...

                --- On Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

                From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM

                Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                Anything in particular you want to see?

                Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service manual,
                and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite tight.
                That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                honing.

                Then I cleaned the combustion chambers on the head with drill-mounted
                wire wheels of different sizes, was well as cleaning the head in
                general. Unlike the valves, it didn't take much. I also used a mounted
                stone to clean up some of the rougher parts of the casting around the
                valve area of the head - there were bits of cast iron sticking up into
                the area that could, under the right conditions, get hot enough to
                actually ignite incoming air/gas mixture.

                Then, just to make you guys (and Tim) happy I honed the cylinder bores.
                This is a job that takes longer to set up and take down than to actually
                perform. I used my 1/2" Makita drill because it runs quite slowly, oiled
                up the stones well, and ran the hone up and down the cylinder for about
                30 seconds. I wasn't happy with the results (there was still a little
                glaze left), so I did it again and am satisfied with their appearance. I
                can never get the cylinders as nice looking as the pictures in the
                manuals, but they are good enough for my needs. Hey, this is an old
                tractor, not an airplane engine.

                While I was puttering, I brought the timing marks around on the
                crankshaft pulley, cleaned the area, and marked the two notches with a
                silver Sharpie pen. (I used to do that job with a tiny brush and
                aluminum paint, but a Sharpie is so much faster and easier.) That will
                make timing the engine MUCH easier when I get to that point. I wish I
                could clean up the entire engine area, but it is far too cold here
                (30°F) to roll the tractor outdoors for a bath. There is oily dirt
                everywhere, and I suspect that someday a front crankshaft seal will be
                replaced, but it won't be any time soon...

                Speaking of it being cold, I am working in my 24x48 barn. While I added
                insulation when I built the barn back in the '70s, it certainly doesn't
                have central heating. It has three separate bays, and I keep one of
                those oil filled electric radiators in each bay, set to just keep the
                temperature above freezing. While I am working on a tractor, I goose the
                thermostat up a little and wear Nitrile gloves and an old heavy sweater.
                I am surprised how those thin Nitrile gloves keep my hands warm enough
                to be comfortable (and also not cracked and bleeding the way they used
                to before the invention of Nitrile gloves).

                I have now done as much as I can do (except for finding that darn lost
                bolt) until the parts arrive. It turns out that the top hose is a Case
                IH only part, so I will have to shoot off an order to Carter & Gruenwald
                to see if they have one. All the rest of the needed pieces can come from
                TM Tractor Parts <www.tmtractor.com>

                Mike

                On 1/10/2011 11:40 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                > Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little
                > workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an
                > ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn
                > floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and
                > well all the stuff that makes this fun..
                >
                > I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)
                >
                > Tim S...


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              • Mike Sloane
                ... On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye level, but on
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                  On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                  > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                  > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                  > are any tricks).
                  On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even
                  get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye
                  level, but on the LoBoys, I end up sitting on a low rolling seat (I
                  avoid kneeling on concrete because of my old knees). The valve lash
                  adjustment is really quite easy - you set cylinder No. 1 on TDC and then
                  adjust valves 1,2,3,5, then turn the engine one full turn and do valves
                  4,6,7,8. I usually spin the engine around by hand a few times to make
                  sure that there is no dirt on the cam, etc. and then check the clearance
                  again with my .015" feeler.

                  > Also my lapping skills aren't the best.
                  I always had a lot of trouble with lapping using those cheap suction cup
                  tools. Then I found the answer to all my problems. It is a tool that
                  uses a suction cup that has a hole in the center with a spring loaded
                  piston that keeps pulling up on the valve. I will try to get a picture
                  of that to make the description clearer.

                  > Also do you
                  > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines?
                  I have never had to do anything with the guides in the C-60 engines. I
                  suspect that has to do with the relatively slow speed of the engine, the
                  short travel of the valves, and the length of the guides.

                  > Also is
                  > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece?
                  The seals on these engines are one piece. The rear seal is very easy to
                  replace, and on the numbered LoBoys you can do it without "splitting"
                  the tractor. The only caution is that the rear seal size you buy will be
                  very slightly smaller than the original one that was used back in 1947,
                  so that the outside of the seal isn't tight against the carrier. What I
                  do is "glue" the seal into the casting with what is called "flange seal"
                  from Loctite or similar. I have yet to have one come loose.

                  I have not tried to do a front seal with the engine in place - I am
                  pretty sure that you have to pull the engine. But after that, it is a
                  pretty easy repair. Fortunately, for whatever reason, the rear seals on
                  the C-60 engine are the ones that seem the most prone to leaking.

                  > As always any
                  > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                  > do list together..
                  I find that true of EVERY project I get involved with. The Good News
                  about the C-60 engine is that it is so simple that I very rarely
                  encounter serious or overly expensive issues. I have heard that the
                  heads were prone to cracking and/or warping, but I have never found a
                  bad head yet. I would imagine that allowing them to overheat might cause
                  that kind of problem. The LoBoy is a great learning tool for anybody who
                  is just getting into engine or equipment repair. Except for the PTO
                  clutch, everything else on the tractor is the kind of thing you would
                  find in among generic illustrations in a 1950's textbook on
                  engine/tractor repair. (Well, the outboard clutch on the 154/185 is a
                  little unusual, but it is so simple that it shouldn't pose any problems
                  for someone who is willing to follow the directions in the service manual.)

                  On the other hand, this particular engine hasn't (so far) presented any
                  surprises. The only problem that I have not resolved is why the engine
                  quits after running well for about half an hour or so. I have eliminated
                  the coil and other ignition components, as they have been changed out
                  for a new coil and electronic ignition module. When I first took a look
                  after the hood was removed, I discovered that the fan/alternator belt
                  was quite slack, so it might have been a simple case of the engine
                  overheating. Maybe.

                  Mike
                  >
                  > Warm Regards
                  > Tim S...
                  >
                  > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                  > To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                  >
                  > Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                  > Anything in particular you want to see?
                  >
                  > Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service
                  > manual,
                  > and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite
                  > tight.
                  > That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                  > and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                  > honing.
                  >
                • Tim Stone
                  Wow, thank you very much Mike.. This will be very helpful.. Done a my fair share of engine rebuilds. Mostly car and truck engines. Did one flat head 1950 Ford
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                    Wow, thank you very much Mike.. This will be very helpful.. Done a my fair share of engine rebuilds. Mostly car and truck engines. Did one flat head 1950 Ford V8 back when I was a teenager. Hate to admit it but that was a really long time ago so don't remember much about it. But like riding a bicycle it will come back to me. BTW on that lapping tool if you remember where you got it that sounds like one to get.

                    On the quitting problem, could be overheating but did the engine smell hot? Since this is a percolator cooling system lack of airflow should make the motor smell hot. Also did the problem onset fast or slow. Cooling issue would onset slower than say a carb/choke problem. And you would have some ramp of power loss before it decided to give up. The 184 I am starting the rebuild on, last summer was shuting off suddenly. That one turns out to be a carb/float problem. Since that engine smokes especially under load time for new rings and such.

                    Funny how we older guys have no fear doing these kind of things. (I'm in the mid 50's). Before I upset any of the young guys on here. Hats off to you if you do this kind of work just saying I don't see as many young ones taking it up..

                    Once again Mike a big thanks..

                    Tim S...

                    --- On Tue, 1/11/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

                    From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                    Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                    To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 9:59 AM



                    On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                    > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                    > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                    > are any tricks).
                    On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even
                    get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye
                    level, but on the LoBoys, I end up sitting on a low rolling seat (I
                    avoid kneeling on concrete because of my old knees). The valve lash
                    adjustment is really quite easy - you set cylinder No. 1 on TDC and then
                    adjust valves 1,2,3,5, then turn the engine one full turn and do valves
                    4,6,7,8. I usually spin the engine around by hand a few times to make
                    sure that there is no dirt on the cam, etc. and then check the clearance
                    again with my .015" feeler.

                    > Also my lapping skills aren't the best.
                    I always had a lot of trouble with lapping using those cheap suction cup
                    tools. Then I found the answer to all my problems. It is a tool that
                    uses a suction cup that has a hole in the center with a spring loaded
                    piston that keeps pulling up on the valve. I will try to get a picture
                    of that to make the description clearer.

                    > Also do you
                    > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines?
                    I have never had to do anything with the guides in the C-60 engines. I
                    suspect that has to do with the relatively slow speed of the engine, the
                    short travel of the valves, and the length of the guides.

                    > Also is
                    > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece?
                    The seals on these engines are one piece. The rear seal is very easy to
                    replace, and on the numbered LoBoys you can do it without "splitting"
                    the tractor. The only caution is that the rear seal size you buy will be
                    very slightly smaller than the original one that was used back in 1947,
                    so that the outside of the seal isn't tight against the carrier. What I
                    do is "glue" the seal into the casting with what is called "flange seal"
                    from Loctite or similar. I have yet to have one come loose.

                    I have not tried to do a front seal with the engine in place - I am
                    pretty sure that you have to pull the engine. But after that, it is a
                    pretty easy repair. Fortunately, for whatever reason, the rear seals on
                    the C-60 engine are the ones that seem the most prone to leaking.

                    > As always any
                    > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                    > do list together..
                    I find that true of EVERY project I get involved with. The Good News
                    about the C-60 engine is that it is so simple that I very rarely
                    encounter serious or overly expensive issues. I have heard that the
                    heads were prone to cracking and/or warping, but I have never found a
                    bad head yet. I would imagine that allowing them to overheat might cause
                    that kind of problem. The LoBoy is a great learning tool for anybody who
                    is just getting into engine or equipment repair. Except for the PTO
                    clutch, everything else on the tractor is the kind of thing you would
                    find in among generic illustrations in a 1950's textbook on
                    engine/tractor repair. (Well, the outboard clutch on the 154/185 is a
                    little unusual, but it is so simple that it shouldn't pose any problems
                    for someone who is willing to follow the directions in the service manual.)

                    On the other hand, this particular engine hasn't (so far) presented any
                    surprises. The only problem that I have not resolved is why the engine
                    quits after running well for about half an hour or so. I have eliminated
                    the coil and other ignition components, as they have been changed out
                    for a new coil and electronic ignition module. When I first took a look
                    after the hood was removed, I discovered that the fan/alternator belt
                    was quite slack, so it might have been a simple case of the engine
                    overheating. Maybe.

                    Mike
                    >
                    > Warm Regards
                    > Tim S...
                    >
                    > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >     From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                    >     Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                    >     To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                    >     Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                    >
                    >     Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                    >     Anything in particular you want to see?
                    >
                    >     Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service
                    >     manual,
                    >     and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite
                    >     tight.
                    >     That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                    >     and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                    >     honing.
                    >


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                  • njdale2000
                    Mike, You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory). Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow season) my son did some head work
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                      Mike,
                      You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory).

                      Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow season) my son did some head work on his 184.

                      Now, I know that you don't favor changes like this; but, others may be looking for more power.

                      He got a used 154 head (same casing number) and had .085" milled off of it. He checked the piston dome to head clearance with wadded up aluminum foil and found that there was .120" clearance. The valve to head clearance was not checked since there is so much room in that area anyhow.

                      Now that Colorado mountain snow season has arrived and he has started plowing driveway snow, he says that the tractor has 'considerably' more power - especially when pushing up the sloped section of driveway.

                      Now, keep in mind that this is at 7,300 feet of elevation so that the air and oxygen levels are quite thin (25% less than at sea level). His 'before' compression test showed 75#'s of compression even across all 4 cylinders. His 'after' compression test still showed the same 75# results. His rings are probably worn just about the same as yours were (which would definitely bleed off any increased compression at starter cranking speed.

                      a freshly built C60 engine at sea level could expect to read about 125# of compression. Just taking into account the elevation change, the same freshly built engine would have a target compression of only 93#'s at the 7,300 foot elevation.

                      Next year during his two month 'down' season, he plans on doing a ring and bearing job.

                      But, to all of you who might want to get a little more power (10% to 15%) out of your C60 engines - milling .085" off your head is a relatively inexpensive, relatively easy way to achieve that.

                      NJDale
                    • Mike Sloane
                      I have no problem with what your son did to his 184, but I think owners of 154/185 s need to be careful if they are thinking of doing the same thing. The
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                        I have no problem with what your son did to his 184, but I think owners
                        of 154/185's need to be careful if they are thinking of doing the same
                        thing. The reason is that IH made some internal changes to the C-60
                        engine because of some problems reported with the 185 - beefed up
                        crankshaft, pistons, bearings, etc. See Page 121 of Ken Updike's
                        excellent book "Farmall Cub & Cub Cadet" for the whole list of
                        improvements that strengthened the bottom of the engine. There is more
                        than the color, starter, and clutch difference between the 185 and the 184.

                        Keep in mind that the c-60 engine started out in 1947 as an "entry
                        level" power plant putting out 10 hp at 1750 rpm. By the time of the
                        194, almost 30 years later, the tooling had gotten more than a little
                        tired, and IH wasn't investing big bucks in maintenance at that point in
                        the corporation's history, but they still managed to squeak 20 hp at
                        2200 rpm. I suggest that anyone contemplating milling the head also
                        consider doing a thorough check of ALL the other components, including
                        the oil pump, cam, timing gears, governor, etc.

                        I can relate to loss of power at high altitudes. I visited my son who
                        was living in Lake Tahoe at the time, and I rented a GMC Jimmy with a
                        big V8 engine. The car did fine running around Reno, but when I was
                        climbing up the Sierra Navadas (10,500') on I267, I almost wondered if I
                        had lost 4 of the 8 cylinders. Some of the pickups pulling travel
                        trailers were barely moving in low gear. IH used to sell "high altitude"
                        kits for the larger farm tractors like the M and H, and they were a
                        popular addition for farmers looking for a few more hp.

                        Mike

                        On 1/11/2011 12:11 PM, njdale2000 wrote:
                        > Mike,
                        > You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory).
                        >
                        > Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow
                        > season) my son did some head work on his 184.
                        >
                        > Now, I know that you don't favor changes like this; but, others may be
                        > looking for more power.
                        >
                        > He got a used 154 head (same casing number) and had .085" milled off of
                        > it. He checked the piston dome to head clearance with wadded up aluminum
                        > foil and found that there was .120" clearance. The valve to head
                        > clearance was not checked since there is so much room in that area anyhow.
                        >
                        > Now that Colorado mountain snow season has arrived and he has started
                        > plowing driveway snow, he says that the tractor has 'considerably' more
                        > power - especially when pushing up the sloped section of driveway.
                        >
                        > Now, keep in mind that this is at 7,300 feet of elevation so that the
                        > air and oxygen levels are quite thin (25% less than at sea level). His
                        > 'before' compression test showed 75#'s of compression even across all 4
                        > cylinders. His 'after' compression test still showed the same 75#
                        > results. His rings are probably worn just about the same as yours were
                        > (which would definitely bleed off any increased compression at starter
                        > cranking speed.
                        >
                        > a freshly built C60 engine at sea level could expect to read about 125#
                        > of compression. Just taking into account the elevation change, the same
                        > freshly built engine would have a target compression of only 93#'s at
                        > the 7,300 foot elevation.
                        >
                        > Next year during his two month 'down' season, he plans on doing a ring
                        > and bearing job.
                        >
                        > But, to all of you who might want to get a little more power (10% to
                        > 15%) out of your C60 engines - milling .085" off your head is a
                        > relatively inexpensive, relatively easy way to achieve that.
                        >
                        > NJDale
                        >
                        .
                      • Mike Sloane
                        As promised, I have added some images of today s activity on the 184 engine. Go to
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                          As promised, I have added some images of today's activity on the 184
                          engine. Go to
                          <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/184-engine-overhaul-18.html>
                          to start and view the images following that one. I think the captions
                          are pretty obvious, but feel free to contact me or the group if there
                          are any questions.

                          Mike

                          On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                          > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                          > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                          > are any tricks). Also my lapping skills aren't the best. Also do you
                          > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines? Also is
                          > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece? As always any
                          > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                          > do list together..
                          >
                          > Warm Regards
                          > Tim S...
                          >
                          > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                          > To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                          >
                          > Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                          > Anything in particular you want to see?
                          .
                        • njdale2000
                          Mike, I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!! The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010 oversize piston. Standard bore pistons have no mark . I
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 12, 2011
                            Mike,
                            I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!!

                            The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010" oversize piston. Standard bore pistons have 'no mark'.

                            I seriously doubt that 'the factory' used a .010" bore and piston (although anything is possible) - it is more likely that the engine was bored and rebuilt sometime during its 30+ year life. You should re-check the bore with your gauge again.

                            If by chance, if you find that indeed it is really .010" over AND you already have the STD rings on the way - my son has a set of .010" oversize rings that he got in August in an overzealous order before he took the engine apart (his was STD with almost the same cylinder wear as yours had (no wear ridge at all). He was going to grind the ring ends to make up for any wear; but, since there is virtually no wear, I told him just to re-order STD rings when he actually gets around to doing the rebuild. Maybe you guys could just 'swap' them. If it is indeed the case, I will get you brand name and number etc.

                            If the engine has been apart for a rebuild, you might want to check the backs of the main and connecting rod bearing shells. They are ALWAYS marked with a .010, .020, or .030 if undersized and USUALLY marked with a STD if standard size.

                            Hope this information helps, Dale
                          • Mike Sloane
                            Yes, I corresponded with Ken Updike of Carter & Gruenwald , and he agreed that the engine must have been rebuilt using oversize pistons. I miked
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 12, 2011
                              Yes, I corresponded with Ken Updike of Carter & Gruenwald
                              <www.cngco.com>, and he agreed that the engine must have been rebuilt
                              using oversize pistons. I miked the pistons and the cylinder bores this
                              afternoon, and they are indeed .010" over the spec's in the manual.

                              Oddly enough, the parts manual calls for the same rings for standard and
                              for .010" over, so I am surprised that your son was able to find the
                              rings that would be used for .010" over.

                              I did check the bearings, and they are all marked "standard". There is a
                              little wear on the upper shells (see
                              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/184-engine-overhaul-20.html#media>),
                              and Ken suggested that was normal wear and to just replace them. The
                              journals look smooth and shiny, but I will Plastigage at least one of
                              them anyway, just to make sure. Ken wrote that, under similar
                              conditions, they just replace the bearing shells, even on big diesel
                              tractors - they call it an "engine underhaul". Since there is no sign of
                              bearing knock at all in the engine, I feel quite comfortable about just
                              replacing the bearing shells.

                              I don't know about any of you, but we just got about 6" of snow
                              overnight, so I was up about 4:30 AM plowing my private dirt lane and
                              several driveways of the seniors who live on the road. To be very
                              honest, I am very glad that I didn't have to use a tractor for that job.
                              It is SO much nicer to sit in a nice warm truck cab with a mug of hot
                              coffee. :-) It's been a long day, and I have a local government meeting
                              to go to tonight.

                              Mike

                              On 1/12/2011 5:05 PM, njdale2000 wrote:
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              > I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!!
                              >
                              > The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010" oversize piston.
                              > Standard bore pistons have 'no mark'.
                              >
                              > I seriously doubt that 'the factory' used a .010" bore and piston
                              > (although anything is possible) - it is more likely that the engine was
                              > bored and rebuilt sometime during its 30+ year life. You should re-check
                              > the bore with your gauge again.
                              >
                              > If by chance, if you find that indeed it is really .010" over AND you
                              > already have the STD rings on the way - my son has a set of .010"
                              > oversize rings that he got in August in an overzealous order before he
                              > took the engine apart (his was STD with almost the same cylinder wear as
                              > yours had (no wear ridge at all). He was going to grind the ring ends to
                              > make up for any wear; but, since there is virtually no wear, I told him
                              > just to re-order STD rings when he actually gets around to doing the
                              > rebuild. Maybe you guys could just 'swap' them. If it is indeed the
                              > case, I will get you brand name and number etc.
                              >
                              > If the engine has been apart for a rebuild, you might want to check the
                              > backs of the main and connecting rod bearing shells. They are ALWAYS
                              > marked with a .010, .020, or .030 if undersized and USUALLY marked with
                              > a STD if standard size.
                              >
                              > Hope this information helps, Dale
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