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RE: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine, and a mystery - long

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  • John Adams
    Mike thanks so much for the step by step progress of the overhaul. Was very helpful for me to see how to do this procedure. You know I have a 154 and so far I
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 22, 2010

      Mike thanks so much for the step by step progress of the overhaul.

       

      Was very helpful for me to see how to do this procedure.

       

      You know I have a 154 and so far I am not experiencing any problems.

      I have some smoke coming from the crankcase filler hole but it is not excessive.

      Thanks for keep the group informed.

       

      John Adams

       

       


      From: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com [mailto: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Sloane
      Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 5:30 PM
      To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine, and a mystery - long

       

       

      I finally decided that it was time to overhaul the engine on my 184 and
      make that my "winter project". The problems were 1. although it started
      up OK, after about 20 minutes it would start to blow fumes out the
      breather, and 2. after 30-45 minutes of mowing, the engine would run
      quite hot then quit and not restart until it had cooled down. I assumed
      the blow-by was due to bad rings, but I had no idea what the cause of
      the shutting down was.

      I pulled the tractor into the barn on Saturday and removed the huge rear
      turf tires/rims so I could get around.
      <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/184-engine-overhaul-2.html#media>
      Then I removed the hood and fuel tank. When I removed the fuel tank, I
      discovered why any fuel in the tank would be gone the next time I went
      to use the tractor - the trap/filter was one turn loose! Then I drained
      the oil and the coolant (after I finally found the drain plug!). The
      next thing I discovered was that the fan/alternator belt was loose, so
      that *may* be the reason for the overheating. The next step was to pull
      the head, and aside from a little carbon in the combustion chambers,
      that looked fine. The plugs, to my surprise, were only a little more
      than finger tight. But the plugs all looked very good - no fouling and
      no sign of burning.

      Then I dropped the pan (after removing the flywheel shield and the
      steering arm cross member and drag link). As I usually do when I drop
      the pan on any engine, I checked to see what "interesting" things I
      might find in the pan. In this case, there was a small compression
      spring, about 1" long and about 1/4" in diameter and somewhat mangled. I
      have worked on C-60 engines for many years, and this spring didn't
      strike me as anything from the engine. The only thing that came to mind
      was the oil control valve spring.

      The first thing I did when I went out to the barn today was pull the oil
      pressure relief spring out of the front side of the engine. As you can
      see at
      <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/comparison-with-oil.html#media>,
      the larger spring is the one from the relief valve and the smaller one
      is what I found in the oil pan. So that will have to remain a mystery.

      The next thing I did was remove piston no. 4 from the engine. (On an
      in-line 4 cylinder engine, no. 4 is usually the one that gets the
      hottest, so I always start there - to get the Bad News over first.) The
      bearings and journals are in fine shape, and the shells are marked
      "STD". The pistons themselves are also fine. I removed a couple of rings
      and placed them into the bore, and, as expected, the gap at the end is
      (relatively) huge. The manual says anything over .017 is too large, and
      it didn't take a feeler gauge to see that these rings are really worn.
      <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/piston-ring-gap.html#media>

      I removed pistons no. 2 and 3, and they were the same as no. 4.
      Unfortunately, I somehow managed to drop one of the bolts that holds the
      bottom of the connecting rod in one piston. I looked around but still
      haven't found it.

      After I gave up looking for the bolt (I am sure it will turn up
      eventually), I set up a bore gauge and checked the bores for wear and
      those three cylinders showed almost no wear, certainly not enough to
      justify boring. The most reading I got was 2 or 3 thousandths, which
      (for me) is virtually nothing.

      Aside from the worn rings and the one tired upper radiator hose, I
      really don't see anything that needs immediate attention. But I still
      haven't solved the mystery of the engine quitting after 30-45 minutes of
      hard running. The coil is brand new, but I suppose it could be
      defective. I do have another new coil, although it doesn't have an
      internal resistor, so I would have to add one of my ballast resistors
      in-line if I tried it out. I think I will wait until Spring to do that,
      as there is no way I could use the tractor hard outside for 45 minutes
      this time of year!

      I am going to look over the tractor very carefully before I order the
      replacement parts and gasket set to see if there is anything else that
      needs attention, but, aside from the mystery of the spring in the oil
      pan, everything is going pretty much according to plan. I am debating
      about whether to pull the valves and touch them up, but I am not
      inclined to "fix what ain't broke". Of course I will clean up the head
      and top of the block and other similar stuff before putting the tractor
      back together. And one of the front tires has a slow leak that should be
      remedied before I put the tractor back outside.

      You might notice that I didn't mention honing the cylinder bores. I have
      been doing some reading on the subject, and the consensus among engine
      rebuilders today is that it is no longer necessary, so I haven't been
      doing it. If anyone has any thoughts on the subject, I would like to
      hear them.

      It was OK working in the barn with a sweater over a couple of shirts (I
      have one of those oil filled electric radiators set fairly low - it
      keeps the bay at about 55°), but it was damn cold outside when I walked
      back to the house at 5:00 - 19° with a 10 mph wind. Tomorrow is supposed
      to be slightly warmer, but I think I will wear a heavier jacket when I
      go outside.

      Mike

    • Mike Sloane
      Thanks, John. My old back has been complaining to me, so I am giving it a rest until maybe after the Holidays. Mike
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 22, 2010
        Thanks, John. My old back has been complaining to me, so I am giving it
        a rest until maybe after the Holidays.

        Mike

        On 12/22/2010 11:36 AM, John Adams wrote:
        > Mike thanks so much for the step by step progress of the overhaul.
        >
        > Was very helpful for me to see how to do this procedure.
        >
        > You know I have a 154 and so far I am not experiencing any problems.
        >
        > I have some smoke coming from the crankcase filler hole but it is not
        > excessive.
        >
        > Thanks for keep the group informed.
        >
        > John Adams
      • Mike Sloane
        I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space with my tale of
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 9, 2011
          I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the
          list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space
          with my tale of minimal progress.

          My back was bothering me before the end of the year, so I took some time
          off from the tractor and am returning to it.

          I have decided to take Tim's advice and hone the cylinders - I have a
          hone, and it only takes a few minutes on a little engine like the C60,
          so why not?

          But first I decided to take a look a the valves, since I had the head
          off. I figured that if I went through all the trouble to pull the head
          and not look at the valves, that would be silly, especially if they
          turned out to have problems. As it turned out, the valves are all fine.
          I was surprised to see how much lead had been deposited on the exhaust
          valves - obviously the engine had a lot of hours burning leaded gas. I
          thought that by the time the 184 was built in 1979, that leaded gas had
          been phased out in the US. I guess I am wrong. I spent several hours the
          last couple of days looking for my jar of valve lapping compound and had
          pretty much given up hope of finding it and planned to pick up another
          jar later this week. This morning, while looking for something else, I
          spotted the jar, right where put it after doing the valves on the Ford
          2N a couple of years ago. This time I will put it away with the valve
          lapping tool in the hopes that I can't possibly misplace both of them. :-)

          So I lapped the valves and then did my most un-favorite job of putting
          the keepers back on. The problem with the C60 engine is that it is an F
          head, and the area you have to work in is low and not at all spacious. I
          sit on a rolling seat so I don't have to kneel on the concrete. I have a
          tub of very stiff axle grease that I keep for this kind of job - I
          essentially "glue" the keepers back on the valve stems with grease until
          I can release the springs. I only dropped one keeper, and the magnet
          found it quickly in the pile of gasket scrapings under the engine. I am
          sure that none of you ever have something like that happen, as your
          floor under the engine is spotless, and everything that drops can be
          found immediately. Good for you. I still need to find that bolt that
          fell out of the No 2 connecting rod...

          It was getting a little nippy out in the barn, so I decided to set the
          valve gap tomorrow (you don't want to rush these things). I placed an
          order with TM Tractor Parts (my favorite Cub source) for the rings,
          gaskets, fan belt, and top hose and will wait for the UPS man to deliver
          the stuff and then put everything back together.

          I trust everyone else has been keeping busy and warm these days,

          Mike

          On 12/15/2010 2:35 PM, Tim Stone wrote:
          > Hey Mike, keep me posted on your progress. I decided to rebuild the
          > parts tractor I bought for the creeper gear. Burns oil especially under
          > load but otherwise runs fine. Most likely stuck or worn out rings as i
          > suspect this tractor spent its entire life outside. BTW I have no idea
          > of what that spring belongs to. Nothing in that motor I can think of. I
          > will start my tear down pretty soon.
          >
          > Now as for honing the cylinders. I highly recommend it so the ring will
          > seat in. Like you I have rebuilt and built many engines and a few stock
          > car motors. I agree that the new engine tolerances and alloys may
          > eliminate that need on newer motors. Especially the aluminum alloy
          > engines. But this is the good ole fashion cast iron block with hardened
          > steel rings so the old technique in book still applies. Years ago and
          > much younger I skipped that step on a Ford 302 I was in a hurry to get
          > done. The rings never seated and when you stepped on the gas from a dead
          > stop a little puff of blue smoke. Also in between power shifts.
          > Otherwise no smoke. So after a year of running the motor I dropped the
          > pan, pulled the pistons and honed the cylinders and put it back
          > together. And yup they seated.
          >
          > Ahh the lessons of youth.
          >
          > Good luck with the rebuild..
          >
          > Tim S..
          >
        • njdale2000
          Mike, Don t forget to order the new head bolts. My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of them for under $10 (under $15 including
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
            Mike,
            Don't forget to order the new head bolts.

            My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of them for under $10 (under $15 including shipping). One type of them (I think the long ones) were exact length. The other ended up being 1/8" shorter. I don't think that the 1/8" makes any difference (he shaved off .085" off of the head for increase compression anyhow).

            Remember what happened with the little yellow Farmall Loboy !!!

            In doing research on headbolts, I found out that they are not really meant to be used more that 3 or so times anyhow. Each time that you torque them down to final specification - they get 'stretched' a bit. After 3 times or so, they become 'junk' and are very apt to break.

            NJDale
          • Tim Stone
            Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an ah haaa moment as yes
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
              Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and well all the stuff that makes this fun..

              I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)

              Tim S...

              --- On Sun, 1/9/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

              From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
              Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
              To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 5:08 PM

               

              I am catching up on my engine work on the 184, and it seems that the
              list has been a little slow lately, so I will fill up the empty space
              with my tale of minimal progress.

              My back was bothering me before the end of the year, so I took some time
              off from the tractor and am returning to it.

              I have decided to take Tim's advice and hone the cylinders - I have a
              hone, and it only takes a few minutes on a little engine like the C60,
              so why not?

              But first I decided to take a look a the valves, since I had the head
              off. I figured that if I went through all the trouble to pull the head
              and not look at the valves, that would be silly, especially if they
              turned out to have problems. As it turned out, the valves are all fine.
              I was surprised to see how much lead had been deposited on the exhaust
              valves - obviously the engine had a lot of hours burning leaded gas. I
              thought that by the time the 184 was built in 1979, that leaded gas had
              been phased out in the US. I guess I am wrong. I spent several hours the
              last couple of days looking for my jar of valve lapping compound and had
              pretty much given up hope of finding it and planned to pick up another
              jar later this week. This morning, while looking for something else, I
              spotted the jar, right where put it after doing the valves on the Ford
              2N a couple of years ago. This time I will put it away with the valve
              lapping tool in the hopes that I can't possibly misplace both of them. :-)

              So I lapped the valves and then did my most un-favorite job of putting
              the keepers back on. The problem with the C60 engine is that it is an F
              head, and the area you have to work in is low and not at all spacious. I
              sit on a rolling seat so I don't have to kneel on the concrete. I have a
              tub of very stiff axle grease that I keep for this kind of job - I
              essentially "glue" the keepers back on the valve stems with grease until
              I can release the springs. I only dropped one keeper, and the magnet
              found it quickly in the pile of gasket scrapings under the engine. I am
              sure that none of you ever have something like that happen, as your
              floor under the engine is spotless, and everything that drops can be
              found immediately. Good for you. I still need to find that bolt that
              fell out of the No 2 connecting rod...

              It was getting a little nippy out in the barn, so I decided to set the
              valve gap tomorrow (you don't want to rush these things). I placed an
              order with TM Tractor Parts (my favorite Cub source) for the rings,
              gaskets, fan belt, and top hose and will wait for the UPS man to deliver
              the stuff and then put everything back together.

              I trust everyone else has been keeping busy and warm these days,

              Mike

              On 12/15/2010 2:35 PM, Tim Stone wrote:
              > Hey Mike, keep me posted on your progress. I decided to rebuild the
              > parts tractor I bought for the creeper gear. Burns oil especially under
              > load but otherwise runs fine. Most likely stuck or worn out rings as i
              > suspect this tractor spent its entire life outside. BTW I have no idea
              > of what that spring belongs to. Nothing in that motor I can think of. I
              > will start my tear down pretty soon.
              >
              > Now as for honing the cylinders. I highly recommend it so the ring will
              > seat in. Like you I have rebuilt and built many engines and a few stock
              > car motors. I agree that the new engine tolerances and alloys may
              > eliminate that need on newer motors. Especially the aluminum alloy
              > engines. But this is the good ole fashion cast iron block with hardened
              > steel rings so the old technique in book still applies. Years ago and
              > much younger I skipped that step on a Ford 302 I was in a hurry to get
              > done. The rings never seated and when you stepped on the gas from a dead
              > stop a little puff of blue smoke. Also in between power shifts.
              > Otherwise no smoke. So after a year of running the motor I dropped the
              > pan, pulled the pistons and honed the cylinders and put it back
              > together. And yup they seated.
              >
              > Ahh the lessons of youth.
              >
              > Good luck with the rebuild..
              >
              > Tim S..
              >


            • Mike Sloane
              I will take that into consideration, but I would not suggest using grade 8 bolts for this particular application. The reason is that grade 8 bolts don t
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
                I will take that into consideration, but I would not suggest using grade
                8 bolts for this particular application. The reason is that grade 8
                bolts don't stretch the way grade 5 bolts do, and that is why the proper
                torque for the C-60 engine is something like 35 foot/pounds. If you
                tighten grade 8 bolts to only 35 ft/lbs., they won't hold the head down
                properly. You would have to go to much higher torque, and that would
                stand a good chance of ripping the threads out of the soft cast iron
                block. Again, I am only referring to the old low compression IH C-60
                engine, not a high compression diesel or racing gas engine.

                From what I can tell from the tear-down, this is the first time the
                head has been off this engine, and the head bolts look very clean. If I
                have any problems with them, I will order a complete new set from Case IH.

                Mike

                On 1/10/2011 11:01 AM, njdale2000 wrote:
                > Mike,
                > Don't forget to order the new head bolts.
                >
                > My son got his from an on-line hardware store (Grade 8) and got all of
                > them for under $10 (under $15 including shipping). One type of them (I
                > think the long ones) were exact length. The other ended up being 1/8"
                > shorter. I don't think that the 1/8" makes any difference (he shaved off
                > .085" off of the head for increase compression anyhow).
                >
                > Remember what happened with the little yellow Farmall Loboy !!!
                >
                > In doing research on headbolts, I found out that they are not really
                > meant to be used more that 3 or so times anyhow. Each time that you
                > torque them down to final specification - they get 'stretched' a bit.
                > After 3 times or so, they become 'junk' and are very apt to break.
                >
                > NJDale
              • Mike Sloane
                Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images. Anything in particular you want to see? Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015 as
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 10, 2011
                  Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                  Anything in particular you want to see?

                  Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service manual,
                  and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite tight.
                  That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                  and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                  honing.

                  Then I cleaned the combustion chambers on the head with drill-mounted
                  wire wheels of different sizes, was well as cleaning the head in
                  general. Unlike the valves, it didn't take much. I also used a mounted
                  stone to clean up some of the rougher parts of the casting around the
                  valve area of the head - there were bits of cast iron sticking up into
                  the area that could, under the right conditions, get hot enough to
                  actually ignite incoming air/gas mixture.

                  Then, just to make you guys (and Tim) happy I honed the cylinder bores.
                  This is a job that takes longer to set up and take down than to actually
                  perform. I used my 1/2" Makita drill because it runs quite slowly, oiled
                  up the stones well, and ran the hone up and down the cylinder for about
                  30 seconds. I wasn't happy with the results (there was still a little
                  glaze left), so I did it again and am satisfied with their appearance. I
                  can never get the cylinders as nice looking as the pictures in the
                  manuals, but they are good enough for my needs. Hey, this is an old
                  tractor, not an airplane engine.

                  While I was puttering, I brought the timing marks around on the
                  crankshaft pulley, cleaned the area, and marked the two notches with a
                  silver Sharpie pen. (I used to do that job with a tiny brush and
                  aluminum paint, but a Sharpie is so much faster and easier.) That will
                  make timing the engine MUCH easier when I get to that point. I wish I
                  could clean up the entire engine area, but it is far too cold here
                  (30°F) to roll the tractor outdoors for a bath. There is oily dirt
                  everywhere, and I suspect that someday a front crankshaft seal will be
                  replaced, but it won't be any time soon...

                  Speaking of it being cold, I am working in my 24x48 barn. While I added
                  insulation when I built the barn back in the '70s, it certainly doesn't
                  have central heating. It has three separate bays, and I keep one of
                  those oil filled electric radiators in each bay, set to just keep the
                  temperature above freezing. While I am working on a tractor, I goose the
                  thermostat up a little and wear Nitrile gloves and an old heavy sweater.
                  I am surprised how those thin Nitrile gloves keep my hands warm enough
                  to be comfortable (and also not cracked and bleeding the way they used
                  to before the invention of Nitrile gloves).

                  I have now done as much as I can do (except for finding that darn lost
                  bolt) until the parts arrive. It turns out that the top hose is a Case
                  IH only part, so I will have to shoot off an order to Carter & Gruenwald
                  to see if they have one. All the rest of the needed pieces can come from
                  TM Tractor Parts <www.tmtractor.com>

                  Mike

                  On 1/10/2011 11:40 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                  > Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little
                  > workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an
                  > ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn
                  > floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and
                  > well all the stuff that makes this fun..
                  >
                  > I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)
                  >
                  > Tim S...
                • Tim Stone
                  Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there are any
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                    Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there are any tricks). Also my lapping skills aren't the best. Also do you need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines? Also is the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece? As always any rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to do list together..

                    Warm Regards
                    Tim S...

                    --- On Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

                    From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                    Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                    To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM

                    Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                    Anything in particular you want to see?

                    Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service manual,
                    and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite tight.
                    That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                    and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                    honing.

                    Then I cleaned the combustion chambers on the head with drill-mounted
                    wire wheels of different sizes, was well as cleaning the head in
                    general. Unlike the valves, it didn't take much. I also used a mounted
                    stone to clean up some of the rougher parts of the casting around the
                    valve area of the head - there were bits of cast iron sticking up into
                    the area that could, under the right conditions, get hot enough to
                    actually ignite incoming air/gas mixture.

                    Then, just to make you guys (and Tim) happy I honed the cylinder bores.
                    This is a job that takes longer to set up and take down than to actually
                    perform. I used my 1/2" Makita drill because it runs quite slowly, oiled
                    up the stones well, and ran the hone up and down the cylinder for about
                    30 seconds. I wasn't happy with the results (there was still a little
                    glaze left), so I did it again and am satisfied with their appearance. I
                    can never get the cylinders as nice looking as the pictures in the
                    manuals, but they are good enough for my needs. Hey, this is an old
                    tractor, not an airplane engine.

                    While I was puttering, I brought the timing marks around on the
                    crankshaft pulley, cleaned the area, and marked the two notches with a
                    silver Sharpie pen. (I used to do that job with a tiny brush and
                    aluminum paint, but a Sharpie is so much faster and easier.) That will
                    make timing the engine MUCH easier when I get to that point. I wish I
                    could clean up the entire engine area, but it is far too cold here
                    (30°F) to roll the tractor outdoors for a bath. There is oily dirt
                    everywhere, and I suspect that someday a front crankshaft seal will be
                    replaced, but it won't be any time soon...

                    Speaking of it being cold, I am working in my 24x48 barn. While I added
                    insulation when I built the barn back in the '70s, it certainly doesn't
                    have central heating. It has three separate bays, and I keep one of
                    those oil filled electric radiators in each bay, set to just keep the
                    temperature above freezing. While I am working on a tractor, I goose the
                    thermostat up a little and wear Nitrile gloves and an old heavy sweater.
                    I am surprised how those thin Nitrile gloves keep my hands warm enough
                    to be comfortable (and also not cracked and bleeding the way they used
                    to before the invention of Nitrile gloves).

                    I have now done as much as I can do (except for finding that darn lost
                    bolt) until the parts arrive. It turns out that the top hose is a Case
                    IH only part, so I will have to shoot off an order to Carter & Gruenwald
                    to see if they have one. All the rest of the needed pieces can come from
                    TM Tractor Parts <www.tmtractor.com>

                    Mike

                    On 1/10/2011 11:40 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                    > Hi Mike when you get a chance snap a couple of shots. The little
                    > workarounds and tricks are invaluable. BTW the stiff axel grease was an
                    > ah haaa moment as yes I have dropped keepers before. And yes my barn
                    > floor gets pretty piled up as I'm doing the scrapping and brushing and
                    > well all the stuff that makes this fun..
                    >
                    > I wasn't going to do the valves but yup you have shamed me in to it ;)
                    >
                    > Tim S...


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                  • Mike Sloane
                    ... On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye level, but on
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                      On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                      > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                      > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                      > are any tricks).
                      On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even
                      get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye
                      level, but on the LoBoys, I end up sitting on a low rolling seat (I
                      avoid kneeling on concrete because of my old knees). The valve lash
                      adjustment is really quite easy - you set cylinder No. 1 on TDC and then
                      adjust valves 1,2,3,5, then turn the engine one full turn and do valves
                      4,6,7,8. I usually spin the engine around by hand a few times to make
                      sure that there is no dirt on the cam, etc. and then check the clearance
                      again with my .015" feeler.

                      > Also my lapping skills aren't the best.
                      I always had a lot of trouble with lapping using those cheap suction cup
                      tools. Then I found the answer to all my problems. It is a tool that
                      uses a suction cup that has a hole in the center with a spring loaded
                      piston that keeps pulling up on the valve. I will try to get a picture
                      of that to make the description clearer.

                      > Also do you
                      > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines?
                      I have never had to do anything with the guides in the C-60 engines. I
                      suspect that has to do with the relatively slow speed of the engine, the
                      short travel of the valves, and the length of the guides.

                      > Also is
                      > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece?
                      The seals on these engines are one piece. The rear seal is very easy to
                      replace, and on the numbered LoBoys you can do it without "splitting"
                      the tractor. The only caution is that the rear seal size you buy will be
                      very slightly smaller than the original one that was used back in 1947,
                      so that the outside of the seal isn't tight against the carrier. What I
                      do is "glue" the seal into the casting with what is called "flange seal"
                      from Loctite or similar. I have yet to have one come loose.

                      I have not tried to do a front seal with the engine in place - I am
                      pretty sure that you have to pull the engine. But after that, it is a
                      pretty easy repair. Fortunately, for whatever reason, the rear seals on
                      the C-60 engine are the ones that seem the most prone to leaking.

                      > As always any
                      > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                      > do list together..
                      I find that true of EVERY project I get involved with. The Good News
                      about the C-60 engine is that it is so simple that I very rarely
                      encounter serious or overly expensive issues. I have heard that the
                      heads were prone to cracking and/or warping, but I have never found a
                      bad head yet. I would imagine that allowing them to overheat might cause
                      that kind of problem. The LoBoy is a great learning tool for anybody who
                      is just getting into engine or equipment repair. Except for the PTO
                      clutch, everything else on the tractor is the kind of thing you would
                      find in among generic illustrations in a 1950's textbook on
                      engine/tractor repair. (Well, the outboard clutch on the 154/185 is a
                      little unusual, but it is so simple that it shouldn't pose any problems
                      for someone who is willing to follow the directions in the service manual.)

                      On the other hand, this particular engine hasn't (so far) presented any
                      surprises. The only problem that I have not resolved is why the engine
                      quits after running well for about half an hour or so. I have eliminated
                      the coil and other ignition components, as they have been changed out
                      for a new coil and electronic ignition module. When I first took a look
                      after the hood was removed, I discovered that the fan/alternator belt
                      was quite slack, so it might have been a simple case of the engine
                      overheating. Maybe.

                      Mike
                      >
                      > Warm Regards
                      > Tim S...
                      >
                      > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                      > To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                      >
                      > Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                      > Anything in particular you want to see?
                      >
                      > Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service
                      > manual,
                      > and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite
                      > tight.
                      > That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                      > and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                      > honing.
                      >
                    • Tim Stone
                      Wow, thank you very much Mike.. This will be very helpful.. Done a my fair share of engine rebuilds. Mostly car and truck engines. Did one flat head 1950 Ford
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                        Wow, thank you very much Mike.. This will be very helpful.. Done a my fair share of engine rebuilds. Mostly car and truck engines. Did one flat head 1950 Ford V8 back when I was a teenager. Hate to admit it but that was a really long time ago so don't remember much about it. But like riding a bicycle it will come back to me. BTW on that lapping tool if you remember where you got it that sounds like one to get.

                        On the quitting problem, could be overheating but did the engine smell hot? Since this is a percolator cooling system lack of airflow should make the motor smell hot. Also did the problem onset fast or slow. Cooling issue would onset slower than say a carb/choke problem. And you would have some ramp of power loss before it decided to give up. The 184 I am starting the rebuild on, last summer was shuting off suddenly. That one turns out to be a carb/float problem. Since that engine smokes especially under load time for new rings and such.

                        Funny how we older guys have no fear doing these kind of things. (I'm in the mid 50's). Before I upset any of the young guys on here. Hats off to you if you do this kind of work just saying I don't see as many young ones taking it up..

                        Once again Mike a big thanks..

                        Tim S...

                        --- On Tue, 1/11/11, Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...> wrote:

                        From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                        Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                        To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, January 11, 2011, 9:59 AM



                        On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                        > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                        > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                        > are any tricks).
                        On the C-60 engine, the manifold has to be removed before you can even
                        get to the side plates. On the old Cub, the engine was almost at eye
                        level, but on the LoBoys, I end up sitting on a low rolling seat (I
                        avoid kneeling on concrete because of my old knees). The valve lash
                        adjustment is really quite easy - you set cylinder No. 1 on TDC and then
                        adjust valves 1,2,3,5, then turn the engine one full turn and do valves
                        4,6,7,8. I usually spin the engine around by hand a few times to make
                        sure that there is no dirt on the cam, etc. and then check the clearance
                        again with my .015" feeler.

                        > Also my lapping skills aren't the best.
                        I always had a lot of trouble with lapping using those cheap suction cup
                        tools. Then I found the answer to all my problems. It is a tool that
                        uses a suction cup that has a hole in the center with a spring loaded
                        piston that keeps pulling up on the valve. I will try to get a picture
                        of that to make the description clearer.

                        > Also do you
                        > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines?
                        I have never had to do anything with the guides in the C-60 engines. I
                        suspect that has to do with the relatively slow speed of the engine, the
                        short travel of the valves, and the length of the guides.

                        > Also is
                        > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece?
                        The seals on these engines are one piece. The rear seal is very easy to
                        replace, and on the numbered LoBoys you can do it without "splitting"
                        the tractor. The only caution is that the rear seal size you buy will be
                        very slightly smaller than the original one that was used back in 1947,
                        so that the outside of the seal isn't tight against the carrier. What I
                        do is "glue" the seal into the casting with what is called "flange seal"
                        from Loctite or similar. I have yet to have one come loose.

                        I have not tried to do a front seal with the engine in place - I am
                        pretty sure that you have to pull the engine. But after that, it is a
                        pretty easy repair. Fortunately, for whatever reason, the rear seals on
                        the C-60 engine are the ones that seem the most prone to leaking.

                        > As always any
                        > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                        > do list together..
                        I find that true of EVERY project I get involved with. The Good News
                        about the C-60 engine is that it is so simple that I very rarely
                        encounter serious or overly expensive issues. I have heard that the
                        heads were prone to cracking and/or warping, but I have never found a
                        bad head yet. I would imagine that allowing them to overheat might cause
                        that kind of problem. The LoBoy is a great learning tool for anybody who
                        is just getting into engine or equipment repair. Except for the PTO
                        clutch, everything else on the tractor is the kind of thing you would
                        find in among generic illustrations in a 1950's textbook on
                        engine/tractor repair. (Well, the outboard clutch on the 154/185 is a
                        little unusual, but it is so simple that it shouldn't pose any problems
                        for someone who is willing to follow the directions in the service manual.)

                        On the other hand, this particular engine hasn't (so far) presented any
                        surprises. The only problem that I have not resolved is why the engine
                        quits after running well for about half an hour or so. I have eliminated
                        the coil and other ignition components, as they have been changed out
                        for a new coil and electronic ignition module. When I first took a look
                        after the hood was removed, I discovered that the fan/alternator belt
                        was quite slack, so it might have been a simple case of the engine
                        overheating. Maybe.

                        Mike
                        >
                        > Warm Regards
                        > Tim S...
                        >
                        > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >     From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                        >     Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                        >     To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                        >     Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                        >
                        >     Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                        >     Anything in particular you want to see?
                        >
                        >     Today I re-set the gap on the valves to .015" as per the service
                        >     manual,
                        >     and the job went well. As expected, the gaps were initially quite
                        >     tight.
                        >     That is due to two factors - the wear on the seats as they get hammered
                        >     and the slight lowering of the valves on the seats after even my gentle
                        >     honing.
                        >


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                      • njdale2000
                        Mike, You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory). Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow season) my son did some head work
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                          Mike,
                          You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory).

                          Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow season) my son did some head work on his 184.

                          Now, I know that you don't favor changes like this; but, others may be looking for more power.

                          He got a used 154 head (same casing number) and had .085" milled off of it. He checked the piston dome to head clearance with wadded up aluminum foil and found that there was .120" clearance. The valve to head clearance was not checked since there is so much room in that area anyhow.

                          Now that Colorado mountain snow season has arrived and he has started plowing driveway snow, he says that the tractor has 'considerably' more power - especially when pushing up the sloped section of driveway.

                          Now, keep in mind that this is at 7,300 feet of elevation so that the air and oxygen levels are quite thin (25% less than at sea level). His 'before' compression test showed 75#'s of compression even across all 4 cylinders. His 'after' compression test still showed the same 75# results. His rings are probably worn just about the same as yours were (which would definitely bleed off any increased compression at starter cranking speed.

                          a freshly built C60 engine at sea level could expect to read about 125# of compression. Just taking into account the elevation change, the same freshly built engine would have a target compression of only 93#'s at the 7,300 foot elevation.

                          Next year during his two month 'down' season, he plans on doing a ring and bearing job.

                          But, to all of you who might want to get a little more power (10% to 15%) out of your C60 engines - milling .085" off your head is a relatively inexpensive, relatively easy way to achieve that.

                          NJDale
                        • Mike Sloane
                          I have no problem with what your son did to his 184, but I think owners of 154/185 s need to be careful if they are thinking of doing the same thing. The
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                            I have no problem with what your son did to his 184, but I think owners
                            of 154/185's need to be careful if they are thinking of doing the same
                            thing. The reason is that IH made some internal changes to the C-60
                            engine because of some problems reported with the 185 - beefed up
                            crankshaft, pistons, bearings, etc. See Page 121 of Ken Updike's
                            excellent book "Farmall Cub & Cub Cadet" for the whole list of
                            improvements that strengthened the bottom of the engine. There is more
                            than the color, starter, and clutch difference between the 185 and the 184.

                            Keep in mind that the c-60 engine started out in 1947 as an "entry
                            level" power plant putting out 10 hp at 1750 rpm. By the time of the
                            194, almost 30 years later, the tooling had gotten more than a little
                            tired, and IH wasn't investing big bucks in maintenance at that point in
                            the corporation's history, but they still managed to squeak 20 hp at
                            2200 rpm. I suggest that anyone contemplating milling the head also
                            consider doing a thorough check of ALL the other components, including
                            the oil pump, cam, timing gears, governor, etc.

                            I can relate to loss of power at high altitudes. I visited my son who
                            was living in Lake Tahoe at the time, and I rented a GMC Jimmy with a
                            big V8 engine. The car did fine running around Reno, but when I was
                            climbing up the Sierra Navadas (10,500') on I267, I almost wondered if I
                            had lost 4 of the 8 cylinders. Some of the pickups pulling travel
                            trailers were barely moving in low gear. IH used to sell "high altitude"
                            kits for the larger farm tractors like the M and H, and they were a
                            popular addition for farmers looking for a few more hp.

                            Mike

                            On 1/11/2011 12:11 PM, njdale2000 wrote:
                            > Mike,
                            > You were right they were grade 5 bolts (bad memory).
                            >
                            > Just as an aside, last August,(after mowing season but before snow
                            > season) my son did some head work on his 184.
                            >
                            > Now, I know that you don't favor changes like this; but, others may be
                            > looking for more power.
                            >
                            > He got a used 154 head (same casing number) and had .085" milled off of
                            > it. He checked the piston dome to head clearance with wadded up aluminum
                            > foil and found that there was .120" clearance. The valve to head
                            > clearance was not checked since there is so much room in that area anyhow.
                            >
                            > Now that Colorado mountain snow season has arrived and he has started
                            > plowing driveway snow, he says that the tractor has 'considerably' more
                            > power - especially when pushing up the sloped section of driveway.
                            >
                            > Now, keep in mind that this is at 7,300 feet of elevation so that the
                            > air and oxygen levels are quite thin (25% less than at sea level). His
                            > 'before' compression test showed 75#'s of compression even across all 4
                            > cylinders. His 'after' compression test still showed the same 75#
                            > results. His rings are probably worn just about the same as yours were
                            > (which would definitely bleed off any increased compression at starter
                            > cranking speed.
                            >
                            > a freshly built C60 engine at sea level could expect to read about 125#
                            > of compression. Just taking into account the elevation change, the same
                            > freshly built engine would have a target compression of only 93#'s at
                            > the 7,300 foot elevation.
                            >
                            > Next year during his two month 'down' season, he plans on doing a ring
                            > and bearing job.
                            >
                            > But, to all of you who might want to get a little more power (10% to
                            > 15%) out of your C60 engines - milling .085" off your head is a
                            > relatively inexpensive, relatively easy way to achieve that.
                            >
                            > NJDale
                            >
                            .
                          • Mike Sloane
                            As promised, I have added some images of today s activity on the 184 engine. Go to
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 11, 2011
                              As promised, I have added some images of today's activity on the 184
                              engine. Go to
                              <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/184-engine-overhaul-18.html>
                              to start and view the images following that one. I think the captions
                              are pretty obvious, but feel free to contact me or the group if there
                              are any questions.

                              Mike

                              On 1/11/2011 9:19 AM, Tim Stone wrote:
                              > Hi Mike, the valve work and adjustments are always welcomed. Since this
                              > is a flat head seeing how you get to the valve lash adjustment (if there
                              > are any tricks). Also my lapping skills aren't the best. Also do you
                              > need to do anything with the guides in these flat head engines? Also is
                              > the front and rear main seals split or are they one piece? As always any
                              > rebuild turns out to be more extensive then when you are putting the to
                              > do list together..
                              >
                              > Warm Regards
                              > Tim S...
                              >
                              > --- On *Mon, 1/10/11, Mike Sloane /<mikesloane@...>/* wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Mike Sloane <mikesloane@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [IH CUB LoBoy Numbered Series] Rebuilding a 184 engine
                              > To: ihcubloboyseries@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:27 PM
                              >
                              > Sure, I will get the camera out there tomorrow and get some images.
                              > Anything in particular you want to see?
                              .
                            • njdale2000
                              Mike, I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!! The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010 oversize piston. Standard bore pistons have no mark . I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 12, 2011
                                Mike,
                                I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!!

                                The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010" oversize piston. Standard bore pistons have 'no mark'.

                                I seriously doubt that 'the factory' used a .010" bore and piston (although anything is possible) - it is more likely that the engine was bored and rebuilt sometime during its 30+ year life. You should re-check the bore with your gauge again.

                                If by chance, if you find that indeed it is really .010" over AND you already have the STD rings on the way - my son has a set of .010" oversize rings that he got in August in an overzealous order before he took the engine apart (his was STD with almost the same cylinder wear as yours had (no wear ridge at all). He was going to grind the ring ends to make up for any wear; but, since there is virtually no wear, I told him just to re-order STD rings when he actually gets around to doing the rebuild. Maybe you guys could just 'swap' them. If it is indeed the case, I will get you brand name and number etc.

                                If the engine has been apart for a rebuild, you might want to check the backs of the main and connecting rod bearing shells. They are ALWAYS marked with a .010, .020, or .030 if undersized and USUALLY marked with a STD if standard size.

                                Hope this information helps, Dale
                              • Mike Sloane
                                Yes, I corresponded with Ken Updike of Carter & Gruenwald , and he agreed that the engine must have been rebuilt using oversize pistons. I miked
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 12, 2011
                                  Yes, I corresponded with Ken Updike of Carter & Gruenwald
                                  <www.cngco.com>, and he agreed that the engine must have been rebuilt
                                  using oversize pistons. I miked the pistons and the cylinder bores this
                                  afternoon, and they are indeed .010" over the spec's in the manual.

                                  Oddly enough, the parts manual calls for the same rings for standard and
                                  for .010" over, so I am surprised that your son was able to find the
                                  rings that would be used for .010" over.

                                  I did check the bearings, and they are all marked "standard". There is a
                                  little wear on the upper shells (see
                                  <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/international_184/184-engine-overhaul-20.html#media>),
                                  and Ken suggested that was normal wear and to just replace them. The
                                  journals look smooth and shiny, but I will Plastigage at least one of
                                  them anyway, just to make sure. Ken wrote that, under similar
                                  conditions, they just replace the bearing shells, even on big diesel
                                  tractors - they call it an "engine underhaul". Since there is no sign of
                                  bearing knock at all in the engine, I feel quite comfortable about just
                                  replacing the bearing shells.

                                  I don't know about any of you, but we just got about 6" of snow
                                  overnight, so I was up about 4:30 AM plowing my private dirt lane and
                                  several driveways of the seniors who live on the road. To be very
                                  honest, I am very glad that I didn't have to use a tractor for that job.
                                  It is SO much nicer to sit in a nice warm truck cab with a mug of hot
                                  coffee. :-) It's been a long day, and I have a local government meeting
                                  to go to tonight.

                                  Mike

                                  On 1/12/2011 5:05 PM, njdale2000 wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mike,
                                  > I liked the new pictures !!! Thanks !!!
                                  >
                                  > The mark 010 on the piston means that it is a .010" oversize piston.
                                  > Standard bore pistons have 'no mark'.
                                  >
                                  > I seriously doubt that 'the factory' used a .010" bore and piston
                                  > (although anything is possible) - it is more likely that the engine was
                                  > bored and rebuilt sometime during its 30+ year life. You should re-check
                                  > the bore with your gauge again.
                                  >
                                  > If by chance, if you find that indeed it is really .010" over AND you
                                  > already have the STD rings on the way - my son has a set of .010"
                                  > oversize rings that he got in August in an overzealous order before he
                                  > took the engine apart (his was STD with almost the same cylinder wear as
                                  > yours had (no wear ridge at all). He was going to grind the ring ends to
                                  > make up for any wear; but, since there is virtually no wear, I told him
                                  > just to re-order STD rings when he actually gets around to doing the
                                  > rebuild. Maybe you guys could just 'swap' them. If it is indeed the
                                  > case, I will get you brand name and number etc.
                                  >
                                  > If the engine has been apart for a rebuild, you might want to check the
                                  > backs of the main and connecting rod bearing shells. They are ALWAYS
                                  > marked with a .010, .020, or .030 if undersized and USUALLY marked with
                                  > a STD if standard size.
                                  >
                                  > Hope this information helps, Dale
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