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Re: [angla] Macbeth: What are Ido for "Witch","Lightning"?

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  • James Chandler
    ... Yes, witch/wizard are wonderful, short, handy germanic words, but Ido is not a germanic language. If anything it is a simplified romanic language, with a
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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      >yea, but in english we have witch and warlock/wizard - both sorcero (a
      >wizard/warlock yea?) and sorcerino ARE longer than the english words,
      >albeit by only one or two syllables. the worry i have is that its a bit
      >like spanish, where one has to talk really quickly. this is ok for
      >spanish people, but for germanic speakers it may be a little tricky,
      >esp. if they havnt quite mastered the roman vowels. eh well.

      Yes, witch/wizard are wonderful, short, handy germanic words, but Ido is not
      a germanic language. If anything it is a simplified romanic language, with
      a germanic admixture (sometimes an unhappy one, as in the case of 'quik' for
      example). And witch/wizard with their final consonants are not going to be
      so easy for those in whose native languages words generally end in a vowel.
      (One might also object that the shortness of 'witch' has led to a collision
      with the much more frequent 'which', and that 'wizard' is now probably used
      just as often in the sense of 'sequence of dialog boxes used to simplify
      configuration of computer software' as in its traditional sense.)

      At the end of the day, an auxlang is never going to have sex-specific roots
      for this concept, so at least one syllable will be needed for sex marking.
      To my mind the construction of sorcerulo/ino is just about optimal for a
      planned auxlang.

      Kordiale, James Chandler
      idojc@...
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    • Michael Talbot-Wilson
      ... A sorcerer. Not longer than sorcero. Why has this word survived? ... The Spanish don t have to talk really quickly to keep up with the meaning, they are
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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        Ye 2003-05-31 19:38 +0100, Xipirho skribis:

        > yea, but in english we have witch and warlock/wizard - both sorcero (a
        > wizard/warlock yea?) and sorcerino ARE longer than the english words,

        A sorcerer. Not longer than sorcero. Why has this word survived?

        > albeit by only one or two syllables. the worry i have is that its a bit
        > like spanish, where one has to talk really quickly. this is ok for

        :-) I'd love to have your worries.

        The Spanish don't have to talk really quickly to keep up with the
        meaning, they are just more intelligent, so they do it (if they do it)
        voluntarily.

        > spanish people, but for germanic speakers it may be a little tricky,
        > esp. if they havnt quite mastered the roman vowels. eh well.

        It is rumoured that they don't, actually, do it.

        --
        Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
        Lu destronizis la potenti
        ed elevis la humili.
        La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
        e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
        (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
      • Michael Talbot-Wilson
        ... Is there something unhappy about quik ? To me it is a happy thing to find that Ido has this one-syllable word, corresponding to a five- syllable English
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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          Ye 2003-06-01 10:18 -0000, James Chandler skribis:

          > Yes, witch/wizard are wonderful, short, handy germanic words, but Ido is not
          > a germanic language. If anything it is a simplified romanic language, with
          > a germanic admixture (sometimes an unhappy one, as in the case of 'quik' for
          > example). And witch/wizard with their final consonants are not going to be

          Is there something unhappy about "quik"? To me it is a happy thing to
          find that Ido has this one-syllable word, corresponding to a five-
          syllable English word. It is a useful counter-example in the context
          of the complaint about the length of Ido words. I can see no problems
          whatsoever about "quik".

          One could complain that it is a "false friend" to English speakers,
          but it is common enough in Ido that we soon get over that.

          It is not a simplified romanic language, it is a simplified Esperanto.
          It has some Romanic tinge because the inventor and the first
          dictionary writers were French. But the terminal vowels are a case of
          "parallel evolution", invented by Zamenhof for a technical reason, not
          in any way derived from or related to the romanic languages. Ido has
          exposed Esperanto's terminal vowels to view as an incidental result of
          the simplication. They don't have n's and j's stuck on them any more.
          And there is nothing Romanic about the grammar. Quite the contrary,
          as an examination of Interlingua's verb conjugations shows.

          --
          Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
          Lu destronizis la potenti
          ed elevis la humili.
          La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
          e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
          (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
        • James Chandler
          Kara Mike quik is a pet hate of mine. If it is supposed to be based on E quick , then it doesnt have the right meaning, because immediately is not the
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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            Kara Mike

            'quik' is a pet hate of mine. If it is supposed to be based on E 'quick',
            then it doesnt have the right meaning, because 'immediately' is not the same
            thing as 'quickly'. In any case, we have a root mediat.a, so we can simply
            form ne.mediat.e, and then 'quik' is redundant. 'quik' just makes the
            language look amateurish (or Esperanto-ish). I think there is a case for
            suppressing it. But perhaps we should continue this discussion on
            Linguolisto...

            Kordiale, James Chandler
            idojc@...
            http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
            http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

            There is no political solution
            To our troubled evolution
            Have no faith in constitution
            There is no bloody revolution
            - Sting, Spirits in the Material World

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          • Xipirho
            yea, you re right really. couldnt we shorten down to sorcer for neut noun and sorcero for masc and sorcera for fem tho?
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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              yea, you're right really. couldnt we shorten down to "sorcer" for neut
              noun and "sorcero" for masc and "sorcera" for fem tho?


              On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 11:18 Europe/London, James Chandler wrote:

              >> yea, but in english we have witch and warlock/wizard - both sorcero (a
              >> wizard/warlock yea?) and sorcerino ARE longer than the english words,
              >> albeit by only one or two syllables. the worry i have is that its a
              >> bit
              >> like spanish, where one has to talk really quickly. this is ok for
              >> spanish people, but for germanic speakers it may be a little tricky,
              >> esp. if they havnt quite mastered the roman vowels. eh well.
              >
              > Yes, witch/wizard are wonderful, short, handy germanic words, but Ido
              > is not
              > a germanic language. If anything it is a simplified romanic language,
              > with
              > a germanic admixture (sometimes an unhappy one, as in the case of
              > 'quik' for
              > example). And witch/wizard with their final consonants are not going
              > to be
              > so easy for those in whose native languages words generally end in a
              > vowel.
              > (One might also object that the shortness of 'witch' has led to a
              > collision
              > with the much more frequent 'which', and that 'wizard' is now probably
              > used
              > just as often in the sense of 'sequence of dialog boxes used to
              > simplify
              > configuration of computer software' as in its traditional sense.)
              >
              > At the end of the day, an auxlang is never going to have sex-specific
              > roots
              > for this concept, so at least one syllable will be needed for sex
              > marking.
              > To my mind the construction of sorcerulo/ino is just about optimal for
              > a
              > planned auxlang.
              >
              > Kordiale, James Chandler
              > idojc@...
              > http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
              > http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
              >
              > There is no political solution
              > To our troubled evolution
              > Have no faith in constitution
              > There is no bloody revolution
              > - Sting, Spirits in the Material World
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
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            • Xipirho
              ... yea, you re right! sorry. ... probably true! i think it might also be the case that the germanic (or at least english and german) vowels make it harder to
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                > Ye 2003-05-31 19:38 +0100, Xipirho skribis:
                >
                >> yea, but in english we have witch and warlock/wizard - both sorcero (a
                >> wizard/warlock yea?) and sorcerino ARE longer than the english words,
                >
                > A sorcerer. Not longer than sorcero. Why has this word survived?

                yea, you're right! sorry.

                >
                >> albeit by only one or two syllables. the worry i have is that its a
                >> bit
                >> like spanish, where one has to talk really quickly. this is ok for
                >
                > :-) I'd love to have your worries.
                >
                > The Spanish don't have to talk really quickly to keep up with the
                > meaning,
                > they are just more intelligent, so they do it (if they do it)
                > voluntarily.

                probably true! i think it might also be the case that the germanic (or
                at least english and german) vowels make it harder to say
                longer/quicker words.

                >
                >> spanish people, but for germanic speakers it may be a little tricky,
                >> esp. if they havnt quite mastered the roman vowels. eh well.
                >
                > It is rumoured that they don't, actually, do it.

                who do what?
              • Xipirho
                On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 11:53 Europe/London, Michael Talbot-Wilson ... what s quik mean then?
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                  On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 11:53 Europe/London, Michael Talbot-Wilson
                  wrote:

                  > Ye 2003-06-01 10:18 -0000, James Chandler skribis:
                  >
                  >> Yes, witch/wizard are wonderful, short, handy germanic words, but Ido
                  >> is not
                  >> a germanic language. If anything it is a simplified romanic
                  >> language, with
                  >> a germanic admixture (sometimes an unhappy one, as in the case of
                  >> 'quik' for
                  >> example). And witch/wizard with their final consonants are not going
                  >> to be
                  >
                  > Is there something unhappy about "quik"? To me it is a happy thing to
                  > find that Ido has this one-syllable word, corresponding to a five-
                  > syllable English word. It is a useful counter-example in the context
                  > of the complaint about the length of Ido words. I can see no problems
                  > whatsoever about "quik".
                  >
                  > One could complain that it is a "false friend" to English speakers,
                  > but it is common enough in Ido that we soon get over that.

                  what's quik mean then?
                • Michael Talbot-Wilson
                  ... immediately -- Lu dispersis le superba kordie. Lu destronizis la potenti ed elevis la humili. La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji e la richin Lu forigis
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                    Ye 2003-06-01 15:14 +0100, Xipirho skribis:

                    > what's quik mean then?

                    immediately

                    --
                    Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
                    Lu destronizis la potenti
                    ed elevis la humili.
                    La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
                    e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
                    (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
                  • Xipirho
                    why was that chosen? On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 19:47 Europe/London, Michael Talbot-Wilson
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                      why was that chosen?


                      On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 19:47 Europe/London, Michael Talbot-Wilson
                      wrote:

                      > Ye 2003-06-01 15:14 +0100, Xipirho skribis:
                      >
                      >> what's quik mean then?
                      >
                      > immediately
                      >
                      > --
                      > Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
                      > Lu destronizis la potenti
                      > ed elevis la humili.
                      > La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
                      > e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
                      > (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                    • Michael Talbot-Wilson
                      ... In general, Ido uses a final e to denote the adverbs. Perhaps these could be called derived adverbs. There is some root, and we derive an adverb by
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                        Ye 2003-06-01 11:46 -0000, James Chandler skribis:

                        > Kara Mike
                        >
                        > 'quik' is a pet hate of mine. If it is supposed to be based on E 'quick',
                        > then it doesnt have the right meaning, because 'immediately' is not the same
                        > thing as 'quickly'. In any case, we have a root mediat.a, so we can simply
                        > form ne.mediat.e, and then 'quik' is redundant. 'quik' just makes the
                        > language look amateurish (or Esperanto-ish). I think there is a case for
                        > suppressing it. But perhaps we should continue this discussion on
                        > Linguolisto...

                        In general, Ido uses a final "e" to denote the adverbs. Perhaps these
                        could be called derived adverbs. There is some root, and we derive an
                        adverb by giving it the suffix -e. Thus "omnadie", daily, "jorne", by
                        day, "amikale", in a friendly spirit, "seque", following.

                        There are also a number of short Ido adverbs that have no ending.
                        Well, they can't be short and have no ending, can they, ho, ho? I
                        mean no grammatical ending, marker, desinence. I think that all the
                        little Ido words that do not have grammatical markers are adverbs.
                        Except nam, perhaps. Among them are ja, jus, quik, nun, sat, tro, pos
                        and olim.

                        I don't think "quik" is out of place in that company.

                        Amikale,
                        Michael Talbot-Wilson

                        --
                        Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
                        Lu destronizis la potenti
                        ed elevis la humili.
                        La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
                        e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
                        (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
                      • Michael Talbot-Wilson
                        ... dunno -- Lu dispersis le superba kordie. Lu destronizis la potenti ed elevis la humili. La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji e la richin Lu forigis
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                          Ye 2003-06-01 20:15 +0100, Xipirho skribis:

                          > why was that chosen?

                          dunno

                          --
                          Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
                          Lu destronizis la potenti
                          ed elevis la humili.
                          La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
                          e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
                          (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
                        • James Chandler
                          ... Not in Ido. But Jespersen in Novial did employ the method you suggest. Kordiale, James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                            >yea, you're right really. couldnt we shorten down to "sorcer" for neut
                            >noun and "sorcero" for masc and "sorcera" for fem tho?

                            Not in Ido. But Jespersen in Novial did employ the method you suggest.

                            Kordiale, James Chandler
                            idojc@...
                            http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
                            http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

                            There is no political solution
                            To our troubled evolution
                            Have no faith in constitution
                            There is no bloody revolution
                            - Sting, Spirits in the Material World

                            _________________________________________________________________
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                          • James Chandler
                            Kara Mike It is not the lack of final -e that I object to, it is the fact that it is based on a word in one language which does not mean the same thing. ja
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                              Kara Mike

                              It is not the lack of final -e that I object to, it is the fact that it is
                              based on a word in one language which does not mean the same thing. 'ja' is
                              based on FPI forms of words with the meaning 'already', so it is entirely
                              justified. But how would you go about justifying quik = 'already' to
                              someone who asked, as someone just did, why it was chosen?

                              Kordiale, James Chandler
                              idojc@...
                              http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
                              http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

                              There is no political solution
                              To our troubled evolution
                              Have no faith in constitution
                              There is no bloody revolution
                              - Sting, Spirits in the Material World

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                            • James Chandler
                              Me skribis: But how would you go about justifying quik = already to Sorry, I meant quik = immediately Kordiale, James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 1, 2003
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                                Me skribis:

                                But how would you go about justifying quik = 'already' to

                                Sorry, I meant quik = 'immediately'

                                Kordiale, James Chandler
                                idojc@...
                                http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
                                http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

                                There is no political solution
                                To our troubled evolution
                                Have no faith in constitution
                                There is no bloody revolution
                                - Sting, Spirits in the Material World





                                >From: "James Chandler" <idojc@...>
                                >Reply-To: ido-angla@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: ido-angla@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: Re: [angla] Macbeth: What are Ido for "Witch","Lightning"?
                                >Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:03:24 +0000
                                >
                                >Kara Mike
                                >
                                >It is not the lack of final -e that I object to, it is the fact that it is
                                >based on a word in one language which does not mean the same thing. 'ja'
                                >is
                                >based on FPI forms of words with the meaning 'already', so it is entirely
                                >justified. But how would you go about justifying quik = 'already' to
                                >someone who asked, as someone just did, why it was chosen?
                                >
                                >Kordiale, James Chandler
                                >idojc@...
                                >http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
                                >http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
                                >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
                                >
                                >There is no political solution
                                >To our troubled evolution
                                >Have no faith in constitution
                                >There is no bloody revolution
                                >- Sting, Spirits in the Material World
                                >
                                >_________________________________________________________________
                                >Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends
                                >http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
                                >

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                              • Michael Talbot-Wilson
                                ... I don t think you need to. The language is itself. It doesn t need to be justified by reference to other languages. But if one were to try for all that,
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 2, 2003
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                                  Ye 2003-06-01 21:03 -0000, James Chandler skribis:

                                  > Kara Mike
                                  >
                                  > It is not the lack of final -e that I object to, it is the fact that it is
                                  > based on a word in one language which does not mean the same thing. 'ja' is
                                  > based on FPI forms of words with the meaning 'already', so it is entirely
                                  > justified. But how would you go about justifying quik = 'immediately' to
                                  > someone who asked, as someone just did, why it was chosen?

                                  I don't think you need to. The language is itself. It doesn't need
                                  to be justified by reference to other languages.

                                  But if one were to try for all that, the line I would take would be
                                  something like this. No, it is not accurately and academically
                                  equivalent to "quickly". But forget academic and think colloquial,
                                  which is where the natural language really resides. It is near enough
                                  to the meaning expressed in the command "Get here quick!" And near
                                  enough is all we ever get. Word meaning is always a little fluid,
                                  alway depends a bit on the meaner. The meaning of the Ido word is
                                  established in Ido, not by reference to the English word.

                                  Beyond that I would ask, what other word might we choose? An English-
                                  speaker might propose "nemediate", because it can be seen as the
                                  result of an exact, bit by bit, piece by piece, transformation of the
                                  English "immediately". We have "ne" for "im", "mediat" for "mediate"
                                  and "e" for "ly". And it is a Latin-derived word for which an Ido
                                  form is discoverable. That would not be a case with a thorougly
                                  English word like "straightway". It all works out so perfectly.

                                  But is "immediately" the best candidate for the required meaning? I
                                  am guessing it arose as a matter of fashion in the days when
                                  "instantly" was more common, on the principle of never using a
                                  three-syllable word if a five-syllable Latin word can be found. It
                                  sounds more learned to use big words. Particularly if you are a
                                  pompous school master trying to overawe little boys (the context in
                                  which it seems to occur most frequently). But is it the most suitable
                                  or the most natural to the urgency of the occasion, a sense wrung by
                                  analysis from a negative word, a word that signifies the absence of
                                  something "mediate"? Logically, a case can be made. It means a thing
                                  to be done without doing something else first, in a "mediate"
                                  interval. But logic is one thing, and the psychology of urgency is a
                                  quite different thing. Hence, "Come quick!" which doesn't mean
                                  rapidly, but _now_ (or some combination of the two), and for which
                                  "Come immediately!" would convey a much lower sense of immediacy.

                                  Psychologically I think it is very satisfactory to have a monosyllabic
                                  word for the concept. The choice of "quik" seems very apt. The
                                  meaning can't be accurately inferred from the English word, but we get
                                  close; and Ido is not only for English-speakers; and after all, what
                                  are false friends for?

                                  Incidentally, I forgot "lor".

                                  Amikale,
                                  Michael Talbot-Wilson

                                  --
                                  Lu dispersis le superba kordie.
                                  Lu destronizis la potenti
                                  ed elevis la humili.
                                  La hungrantin Lu plenigis de bonaji
                                  e la richin Lu forigis indijanta.
                                  (Lukas 1:51a-53, tr. Kauling)
                                • Xipirho
                                  seriously?! wow - i must be a lingusistic genius then! :-)
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 2, 2003
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                                    seriously?! wow - i must be a lingusistic genius then! :-)


                                    On Sunday, Jun 1, 2003, at 21:59 Europe/London, James Chandler wrote:

                                    >> yea, you're right really. couldnt we shorten down to "sorcer" for neut
                                    >> noun and "sorcero" for masc and "sorcera" for fem tho?
                                    >
                                    > Not in Ido. But Jespersen in Novial did employ the method you suggest.
                                    >
                                    > Kordiale, James Chandler
                                    > idojc@...
                                    > http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
                                    > http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home
                                    >
                                    > There is no political solution
                                    > To our troubled evolution
                                    > Have no faith in constitution
                                    > There is no bloody revolution
                                    > - Sting, Spirits in the Material World
                                    >
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