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RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

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  • Eli
    It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters. The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don t sell like they used to and with comics
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010

      It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters.

       

      The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don’t sell like they used to and with comics readers getting older on average, they need to have depth which often means flaws. Wife-beating isn’t great, but if you track back through comics history you will find many examples of characters bringing to light social ills through their flaws and stories. As far as Bendis’ comment, I’m sure that he didn’t mean he was cool because he beats his wife but more that he’s cool because he’s not perfect and has flaws.

       

      Comics are very much a reflection of their readers and unfortunately a statistically high number of readers are going to come from households where these toxic relationships are prevalent. Also remember, that if a character as a flaw, he also has the opportunity to overcome that flaw or be done in by it, which also makes for good stories.

       

      From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Rice
      Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:41 AM
      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

       

       

      See- I don't really think they have.

      Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

      But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

      What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

      It's become way, way bigger than the character.

      Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

      When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

      Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

      Nope. It's his bad marriage.

      On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

       

      I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

      Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



       

      That's because ant-man is amazing.

      It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

      On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

       

      Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

      From: rpgchuck@...
      Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



       

      And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

      I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

      That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has
      a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
      >
      >
      >
      > -Eli
      >

       

       

    • Jakub
      ... Because it s not cool powers that make a character interesting. It s flaws and conflict and alienation. Jakub
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

        >
        > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
        > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
        > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
        > ruined.
        >
        > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
        > genius, and created Ultron.
        >
        > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

        Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

        Jakub
      • Charles Rice
        Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around. I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone s
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
          Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around.

          I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone's character outside of their powers.

          On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Jakub <erpegis@...> wrote:
           



          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

          >
          > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
          > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
          > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
          > ruined.
          >
          > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
          > genius, and created Ultron.
          >
          > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

          Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

          Jakub


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