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Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

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  • Charles Rice
    That s because ant-man is amazing. It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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      That's because ant-man is amazing.

      It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

      On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
       

      Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

      From: rpgchuck@...
      Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


       
      And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

      I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

      That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
      >
      >
      >
      > -Eli
      >



    • Soylent Green
      I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most. To:
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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        I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.
         

        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        From: rpgchuck@...
        Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

         
        That's because ant-man is amazing.

        It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

        On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
         

        Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

        From: rpgchuck@...
        Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


         
        And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

        I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

        That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
        >
        >
        >
        > -Eli
        >




      • Charles Rice
        See- I don t really think they have. Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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          See- I don't really think they have.

          Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

          But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

          What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

          It's become way, way bigger than the character.

          Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

          When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

          Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

          Nope. It's his bad marriage.

          On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
           

          I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

          Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


           
          That's because ant-man is amazing.

          It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

          On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
           

          Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

          From: rpgchuck@...
          Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


           
          And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

          I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

          That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
          >
          >
          >
          > -Eli
          >





        • Soylent Green
          A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder,
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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            A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder, never feeling quite adequate as an Avenger and changing his powers and identity time and again.
             
            But you know, politically incorrect as it may sound, I think the thing that doomed the character was the fact that his girlfriend/wife had all the money. Nothing wrong that in the real world, but back in the 60's in the context of heroic fantasy which very much lives on simple stereotypes, this was somewhat emasculating. It's silly. We don't tend to dwell on what most superheroes do for money, but long before Bendis he was presented as the guy living off his wife's money.

            But hey, Pym can still hold his head up high. At least he wasn't in The Champions.

             

            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: rpgchuck@...
            Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:41:23 -0400
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

             
            See- I don't really think they have.

            Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

            But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

            What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

            It's become way, way bigger than the character.

            Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

            When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

            Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

            Nope. It's his bad marriage.

            On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             

            I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

            Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


             
            That's because ant-man is amazing.

            It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

            On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             
            Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

            From: rpgchuck@...
            Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


             
            And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

            I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

            That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
            >
            >
            >
            > -Eli
            >






          • dirkgentry2000
            The brief and under-appreciated comic Mighty Avengers (with the Pym led team) - did a heck of a job of redeeming Pym as a cool character in my book
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              The brief and under-appreciated comic Mighty Avengers (with the Pym led team) - did a heck of a job of redeeming Pym as a cool character in my book
              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder, never feeling quite adequate as an Avenger and changing his powers and identity time and again.
              >
              > But you know, politically incorrect as it may sound, I think the thing that doomed the character was the fact that his girlfriend/wife had all the money. Nothing wrong that in the real world, but back in the 60's in the context of heroic fantasy which very much lives on simple stereotypes, this was somewhat emasculating. It's silly. We don't tend to dwell on what most superheroes do for money, but long before Bendis he was presented as the guy living off his wife's money.
              >
              > But hey, Pym can still hold his head up high. At least he wasn't in The Champions.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > From: rpgchuck@...
              > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:41:23 -0400
              > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > See- I don't really think they have.
              >
              > Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.
              >
              > But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.
              >
              > What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.
              >
              > It's become way, way bigger than the character.
              >
              > Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.
              >
              > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.
              >
              > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.
              >
              > Nope. It's his bad marriage.
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > From: rpgchuck@...
              > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
              > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > That's because ant-man is amazing.
              >
              > It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.
              >
              >
              > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > From: rpgchuck@...
              > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
              > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.
              >
              > I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.
              >
              > That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.
              >
              > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -Eli
              > >
              >
            • Eli
              It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters. The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don t sell like they used to and with comics
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters.

                 

                The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don’t sell like they used to and with comics readers getting older on average, they need to have depth which often means flaws. Wife-beating isn’t great, but if you track back through comics history you will find many examples of characters bringing to light social ills through their flaws and stories. As far as Bendis’ comment, I’m sure that he didn’t mean he was cool because he beats his wife but more that he’s cool because he’s not perfect and has flaws.

                 

                Comics are very much a reflection of their readers and unfortunately a statistically high number of readers are going to come from households where these toxic relationships are prevalent. Also remember, that if a character as a flaw, he also has the opportunity to overcome that flaw or be done in by it, which also makes for good stories.

                 

                From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Rice
                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:41 AM
                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

                 

                 

                See- I don't really think they have.

                Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

                But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

                What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

                It's become way, way bigger than the character.

                Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

                When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

                Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

                Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                 

                I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

                Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



                 

                That's because ant-man is amazing.

                It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                 

                Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                From: rpgchuck@...
                Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



                 

                And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:

                >
                >
                >
                > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has
                a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                >
                >
                >
                > -Eli
                >

                 

                 

              • Jakub
                ... Because it s not cool powers that make a character interesting. It s flaws and conflict and alienation. Jakub
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
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                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
                  > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
                  > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
                  > ruined.
                  >
                  > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
                  > genius, and created Ultron.
                  >
                  > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                  Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

                  Jakub
                • Charles Rice
                  Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around. I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone s
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
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                    Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around.

                    I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone's character outside of their powers.

                    On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Jakub <erpegis@...> wrote:
                     



                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
                    > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
                    > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
                    > ruined.
                    >
                    > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
                    > genius, and created Ultron.
                    >
                    > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                    Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

                    Jakub


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