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Holy Bat-signal!

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  • Soylent Green
    My current Icons campaign is very much in a the masked crime-fighters vein. Superheroes are still a new concept in the world. They operate in the shadows,
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2010
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      My current Icons campaign is very much in a the masked crime-fighters vein. Superheroes are still a new concept in the world. They operate in the shadows, hiding behind their secret identities and aren't in any way integrated or even really trusted by the authorities.
       
      That's all well and good but I do find one problem with this; it makes it very hard for anyone, both good guys and bad guys, to contact the heroes. The heroes alter-egos are well connected and have various avenues finding out what is going on, but there just isn't an established way for an NPC to contact the heroes. Without Commissioner Gordon's Bat Signal device or the classic "Let's ask Tony Stark to get a message to his bodyguard Iron-man" (back when shellhead still had a secret identity), contacting the heroes is kind of tricky.
       
      To provide a concrete examples, one of the things going is a gang war between two criminal organisations. One of the supervillains on the losing side would consider cutting a deal with the heroes but I'm finding it tricky to figure out a way for him to contact the heroes.
       
      Meanwhile another villain wants an item which is in one of the heroes possession (the gadget that fuels his superpowers to be specific). I'd considered having the villain take a hostage and try to arrange an exchange, but again I'm struggling to see a way for the villain to send a ransom note to the hero that does not also tip off the police, press and pretty much everyone else in the city.
       
      I'm sure I can probably find a way round, but it's kind of like a recurrent issue - solving it for one specific situation doesn't mean it won't crop up the next adventure.
       
      Any one else had this kind of issue before? How did you address it?
       
      PS: I due time I'll no doubt have a supervillain Joker-style take over the airwaves and broadcast a challenge at the heroes on live TV, but I'm kind of saving that more appropriate time :-)

    • Tim K.
      ... A couple of ways. I ve had the villains contact the heroes directly through their own means: communicative telepathy, devices left in police hands, often
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2010
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        > Any one else had this kind of issue before? How did you address it?
        >
        > PS: I due time I'll no doubt have a supervillain Joker-style take over the airwaves and broadcast a challenge at the heroes on live TV, but I'm kind of saving that more appropriate time :-)
        >


        A couple of ways.

        I've had the villains contact the heroes directly through their own
        means: communicative telepathy, devices left in police hands, often
        seemingly inexplicable devices at that. They then use that device to
        transmit a message. "I am contacting you through an audio frequency
        only you and a dogs can hear!"

        Sending it through known associates--such as a reporter who they have
        had rapport with--they only need to pass on word that they wish to
        contact the heroes after all then leave a means to do that. In this day
        and age of disposable cell phones its made even easier by leaving a
        phone number that can't be tracked for them to call.

        Appearing on the airwaves: I've a message for Dr. Radiant, you must
        answer the phone at X and 2nd Streets at precisely 3:03 PM. Let the
        police secure the area then have the PC answer the phone, and let the
        villain pass on his message.

        Send in thugs. Have thugs perform a crime, then get caught at pass on
        the message. They're sacrificed for the villains plans (to be broken out
        later of course.) "The boss wants to make a deal, you'se just got to
        give me the message and I'll take it back to her!"

        Kidnap and important personage they will come rescue--then let them go
        with the message. "He let me go, I couldn't believe it either, but he
        wants you to meet him at the sight of your battle three week ago, I
        don't remember that one making the news!"
      • Soylent Green
        I think the known associate route is probably the most viable route. Unfortunately they ve been developing contact via their alter-egos rather than through
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2010
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          I think the known associate route is probably the most viable route. Unfortunately they've been developing contact via their alter-egos rather than through their super-persona. I guess I just have to wait for the right opportunity to try to fill that gap.
           
          Running this sort of game is really very different from public Fantastic Four style super-group.
           

          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: silverlion@...
          Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 09:50:15 -0500
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Holy Bat-signal!

           

          > Any one else had this kind of issue before? How did you address it?
          >
          > PS: I due time I'll no doubt have a supervillain Joker-style take over the airwaves and broadcast a challenge at the heroes on live TV, but I'm kind of saving that more appropriate time :-)
          >

          A couple of ways.

          I've had the villains contact the heroes directly through their own
          means: communicative telepathy, devices left in police hands, often
          seemingly inexplicable devices at that. They then use that device to
          transmit a message. "I am contacting you through an audio frequency
          only you and a dogs can hear!"

          Sending it through known associates--such as a reporter who they have
          had rapport with--they only need to pass on word that they wish to
          contact the heroes after all then leave a means to do that. In this day
          and age of disposable cell phones its made even easier by leaving a
          phone number that can't be tracked for them to call.

          Appearing on the airwaves: I've a message for Dr. Radiant, you must
          answer the phone at X and 2nd Streets at precisely 3:03 PM. Let the
          police secure the area then have the PC answer the phone, and let the
          villain pass on his message.

          Send in thugs. Have thugs perform a crime, then get caught at pass on
          the message. They're sacrificed for the villains plans (to be broken out
          later of course.) "The boss wants to make a deal, you'se just got to
          give me the message and I'll take it back to her!"

          Kidnap and important personage they will come rescue--then let them go
          with the message. "He let me go, I couldn't believe it either, but he
          wants you to meet him at the sight of your battle three week ago, I
          don't remember that one making the news!"


        • emu2020@comcast.net
          Don t forget good ol networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2010
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            Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.

             

            -Eli


             

          • Charles
            And then there was ant-man s network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble. I always thought the fact that he had
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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              And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

              I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

              That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
              >
              >
              >
              > -Eli
              >
            • Soylent Green
              Funny you should mention Ant-man. I ve been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.
                 

                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: rpgchuck@...
                Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

                 
                And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                >
                >
                >
                > -Eli
                >


              • Charles Rice
                That s because ant-man is amazing. It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                  That's because ant-man is amazing.

                  It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                  On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                   

                  Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                  From: rpgchuck@...
                  Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                  Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                   
                  And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                  I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                  That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -Eli
                  >



                • Soylent Green
                  I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most. To:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                    I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.
                     

                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: rpgchuck@...
                    Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

                     
                    That's because ant-man is amazing.

                    It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                    On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                     

                    Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                    From: rpgchuck@...
                    Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                     
                    And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                    I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                    That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -Eli
                    >




                  • Charles Rice
                    See- I don t really think they have. Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                      See- I don't really think they have.

                      Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

                      But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

                      What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

                      It's become way, way bigger than the character.

                      Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

                      When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

                      Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

                      Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                      On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                       

                      I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

                      Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                       
                      That's because ant-man is amazing.

                      It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                      On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                       

                      Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                      From: rpgchuck@...
                      Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                       
                      And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                      I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                      That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -Eli
                      >





                    • Soylent Green
                      A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                        A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder, never feeling quite adequate as an Avenger and changing his powers and identity time and again.
                         
                        But you know, politically incorrect as it may sound, I think the thing that doomed the character was the fact that his girlfriend/wife had all the money. Nothing wrong that in the real world, but back in the 60's in the context of heroic fantasy which very much lives on simple stereotypes, this was somewhat emasculating. It's silly. We don't tend to dwell on what most superheroes do for money, but long before Bendis he was presented as the guy living off his wife's money.

                        But hey, Pym can still hold his head up high. At least he wasn't in The Champions.

                         

                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        From: rpgchuck@...
                        Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:41:23 -0400
                        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

                         
                        See- I don't really think they have.

                        Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

                        But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

                        What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

                        It's become way, way bigger than the character.

                        Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

                        When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

                        Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

                        Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                        On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                         

                        I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

                        Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                         
                        That's because ant-man is amazing.

                        It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                        On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                         
                        Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                        From: rpgchuck@...
                        Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!


                         
                        And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                        I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                        That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -Eli
                        >






                      • dirkgentry2000
                        The brief and under-appreciated comic Mighty Avengers (with the Pym led team) - did a heck of a job of redeeming Pym as a cool character in my book
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                          The brief and under-appreciated comic Mighty Avengers (with the Pym led team) - did a heck of a job of redeeming Pym as a cool character in my book
                          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > A good writeer can turn around any character, but I think Ant-man had a raw deal from the start. He always presented as having a bit of chip on his shoulder, never feeling quite adequate as an Avenger and changing his powers and identity time and again.
                          >
                          > But you know, politically incorrect as it may sound, I think the thing that doomed the character was the fact that his girlfriend/wife had all the money. Nothing wrong that in the real world, but back in the 60's in the context of heroic fantasy which very much lives on simple stereotypes, this was somewhat emasculating. It's silly. We don't tend to dwell on what most superheroes do for money, but long before Bendis he was presented as the guy living off his wife's money.
                          >
                          > But hey, Pym can still hold his head up high. At least he wasn't in The Champions.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: rpgchuck@...
                          > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:41:23 -0400
                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > See- I don't really think they have.
                          >
                          > Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.
                          >
                          > But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.
                          >
                          > What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.
                          >
                          > It's become way, way bigger than the character.
                          >
                          > Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.
                          >
                          > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.
                          >
                          > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.
                          >
                          > Nope. It's his bad marriage.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: rpgchuck@...
                          > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > That's because ant-man is amazing.
                          >
                          > It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: rpgchuck@...
                          > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                          > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.
                          >
                          > I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.
                          >
                          > That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.
                          >
                          > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -Eli
                          > >
                          >
                        • Eli
                          It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters. The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don t sell like they used to and with comics
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 2, 2010
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                            It is an extreme example of the changing face of comics characters.

                             

                            The sad truth is that ultimate good guys don’t sell like they used to and with comics readers getting older on average, they need to have depth which often means flaws. Wife-beating isn’t great, but if you track back through comics history you will find many examples of characters bringing to light social ills through their flaws and stories. As far as Bendis’ comment, I’m sure that he didn’t mean he was cool because he beats his wife but more that he’s cool because he’s not perfect and has flaws.

                             

                            Comics are very much a reflection of their readers and unfortunately a statistically high number of readers are going to come from households where these toxic relationships are prevalent. Also remember, that if a character as a flaw, he also has the opportunity to overcome that flaw or be done in by it, which also makes for good stories.

                             

                            From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Rice
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:41 AM
                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!

                             

                             

                            See- I don't really think they have.

                            Sure, Spider-Man had 4 extra arms for awhile, and was a clone for awhile, and sure, Tony Stark was a drunk for awhile, and even killed people while drunk.

                            But none of those episodes actually effected the way people felt about the character.

                            What Shooter did to Pym though, that changed the way everyone thought about that character, forever.

                            It's become way, way bigger than the character.

                            Partially because wife-beating is such a horrific thing. But also, because so many people that had no affection for the character, now had this new thing that they DID like for some twisted reason.

                            When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly ruined.

                            Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a genius, and created Ultron.

                            Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                            On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                             

                            I think it is fair to say that every classic character has been ruined at one point or another. But I guess Pym has had it worse than most.

                            Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:47 -0400
                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



                             

                            That's because ant-man is amazing.

                            It really makes me so mad what Jim Shooter did to Henry Pym and the Wasp. They are two of the coolest characters in the marvel universe and he totally ruined them, at least as far as comics are concerned.

                            On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                             

                            Funny you should mention Ant-man. I've been wwatching the new Avengers cartoon prequels. Each episode focuses on a founding member. The surprising thing is that the Ant-man episode turns out so far to been the best one.

                            From: rpgchuck@...
                            Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:52:08 +0000
                            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Holy Bat-signal!



                             

                            And then there was ant-man's network of ant informants, that hung around police stations and informed him of trouble.

                            I always thought the fact that he had taught his ants to not only understand spoken English but *read* police reports should be considered Henry Pym's greatest achievement.

                            That's a true comic story btw. Those old ant-men comics were what Stan and Jack wrote when they were on the *really* good drugs I guess.

                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, emu2020@... wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Don't forget good ol' networking. Even without the Bat Signal, Batman has
                            a network of snitches and informants as well as concerned citizens all over the place. How often do we see panels in comics where a hero is approached directly by a crying house wife, beat-up street walker, wide-eyed kid, bum, or some other character who either asks him for direct assistance or knows something's up down on such and such street.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -Eli
                            >

                             

                             

                          • Jakub
                            ... Because it s not cool powers that make a character interesting. It s flaws and conflict and alienation. Jakub
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
                              > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
                              > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
                              > ruined.
                              >
                              > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
                              > genius, and created Ultron.
                              >
                              > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                              Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

                              Jakub
                            • Charles Rice
                              Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around. I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone s
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 8, 2010
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                                Which Pym had before Jim Shooter decided it would be cool if he smacked his wife around.

                                I mean, I think creating Ultron is an interesting facet of someone's character outside of their powers.

                                On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Jakub <erpegis@...> wrote:
                                 



                                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > When you hear the current writer of the Avengers (Bendis) talk about Pym and
                                > the first thing he mentions is that he's cool because he has this toxic
                                > relationship with his wife- you know the character has been well and truly
                                > ruined.
                                >
                                > Not that he can shrink and become a giant, and talk to ants, and is a
                                > genius, and created Ultron.
                                >
                                > Nope. It's his bad marriage.

                                Because it's not cool powers that make a character interesting. It's flaws and conflict and alienation.

                                Jakub


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