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Re: What's the deal with NPC heroes?

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  • jaerdaph
    LOL! Back in my 3e D&D days, I couldn t say Mystic Thurge without doing the Daffy Duck voice. :) jaerdaph
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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      LOL!

      Back in my 3e D&D days, I couldn't say "Mystic Thurge" without doing the Daffy Duck voice. :)

      jaerdaph

      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Craig McRoberts <imprimis5@...> wrote:
      >
      > Ok, I know this is off topic, or at least tangential, but am I the only one who reads the subject of this thread with a Jerry Seinfeld voice? And with that, I'm back to lurking and reading and absorbing.
      >
      > Craig
      > >
      >
    • Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer
      I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They can be
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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        I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They canĀ  be contacts, foils, plot devices, etc, and if a character appears repeatedly in an rpg line's art for example, I'd like stats and background.
      • Tommy Brownell
        I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players want to
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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          I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
          like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
          want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
          handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
          stuff away.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: eric troup
          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?



          Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
          mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.


          Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
          Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
          we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
          which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.


          But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
          a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
          Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
          rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)


          I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
          fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
          rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).


          I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
          reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
          anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.


          Thanks.




          On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:





          On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:


          Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
          provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
          like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
          appeared on the web as promotional material.


          By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
          the focus.


          We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
          Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
          extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.


          ---


          Gareth-Michael Skarka
          Adamant Entertainment
          gms@...











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        • eric troup
          Agreed. Only time I ve ever been guilty of handwaving was in a Spirit of the Century game where we had an extremely limited amount of time left to finish the
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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            Agreed. Only time I've ever been guilty of handwaving was in a Spirit of the Century game where we had an extremely limited amount of time left to finish the adventure, no chance for a next session (It was a Christmas-themed story and we weren't due to meet back until after the holidays; what fun would that have been?), and it was a huuuuuuuge battle involving our PCs, our main villain, a bunch of his minions, a revolt of workers, a tribe of angry Yeti, and the saving or destruction of Santa's workshop. (Not as cheesy as it sounds, actually). Poor planning on my part left us with about 15 minutes to resolve this whole thing, and therefore, many of the ancillary characters got handwaved for the sake of time. Ended up having a blast though. Took a very narrativist approach to the whole thing, and in some ways, though I hate to admit it as I'm not a fan of hand-waving, I think it wound up being more successful than if we'd taken the time to roll every little piece of that pie on the table.

            Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.


            On 3 Oct 2010, at 12:36, Tommy Brownell wrote:

            > I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
            > like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
            > want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
            > handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
            > stuff away.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: eric troup
            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
            > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
            >
            >
            >
            > Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
            > mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.
            >
            >
            > Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
            > Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
            > we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
            > which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.
            >
            >
            > But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
            > a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
            > Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
            > rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)
            >
            >
            > I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
            > fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
            > rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).
            >
            >
            > I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
            > reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
            > anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.
            >
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:
            >
            >
            > Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
            > provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
            > like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
            > appeared on the web as promotional material.
            >
            >
            > By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
            > the focus.
            >
            >
            > We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
            > Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
            > extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.
            >
            >
            > ---
            >
            >
            > Gareth-Michael Skarka
            > Adamant Entertainment
            > gms@...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3173 - Release Date: 10/02/10
            > 13:05:00
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          • Jakub
            ... Not really. I think that in all games, but especially in supers games your friends/foils/contacts need to be personalized - that s why ICONS and the
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Curt \"Cripplepotomus\" Meyer" <curtmeyer@...> wrote:
              >
              > I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like
              > new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They can
              > be contacts, foils, plot devices, etc, and if a character appears repeatedly
              > in an rpg line's art for example, I'd like stats and background.
              >

              Not really. I think that in all games, but especially in supers games your friends/foils/contacts need to be personalized - that's why ICONS and the characters-as-aspects rule, and that's why i'm waiting for the nemesis creation rules in Villainomicon.
              If I don't have any influence on creation of the character of my rival or greatest enemy, it doesn't really feel like a supers game.
            • Jakub
              ... Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:

                >
                > Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.

                Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are attacking the slaves, but the slavers join the combat to protect the servants), and I want to adopt this approach in ICONS, especially that the great finale of my campaign should ideally be a great epic battle in space between all the heroes and villains, rebel aliens and evil invading alien sect.
              • eric troup
                That s kinda where I got the idea to let the players control the GA during combat, actually. I may have my pet peeves regarding Savage Worlds, but there s a
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                  That's kinda where I got the idea to let the players control the GA during combat, actually.  I may have my pet peeves regarding Savage Worlds, but there's a whole lot to like about it.


                  On 4 Oct 2010, at 02:43, Jakub wrote:

                   

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.

                  Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are attacking the slaves, but the slavers join the combat to protect the servants), and I want to adopt this approach in ICONS, especially that the great finale of my campaign should ideally be a great epic battle in space between all the heroes and villains, rebel aliens and evil invading alien sect.


                • Soylent Green
                  Pretty much in agreement. Handing them over the the player is quite cute and with a simple system it s easy to do.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                    Pretty much in agreement. Handing them over the the player is quite cute and with a simple system it's easy to do.

                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: tommyb@...
                    > Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:36:54 -0500
                    > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
                    >
                    > I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
                    > like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
                    > want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
                    > handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
                    > stuff away.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: eric troup
                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
                    > mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.
                    >
                    >
                    > Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
                    > Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
                    > we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
                    > which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.
                    >
                    >
                    > But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
                    > a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
                    > Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
                    > rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)
                    >
                    >
                    > I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
                    > fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
                    > rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).
                    >
                    >
                    > I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
                    > reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
                    > anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
                    > provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
                    > like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
                    > appeared on the web as promotional material.
                    >
                    >
                    > By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
                    > the focus.
                    >
                    >
                    > We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
                    > Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
                    > extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.
                    >
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    >
                    > Gareth-Michael Skarka
                    > Adamant Entertainment
                    > gms@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3173 - Release Date: 10/02/10
                    > 13:05:00
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • dirkgentry2000
                    I d love to hear how that game goes, jaerdaph -- let me know if you post an actual play report or something?
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                      I'd love to hear how that game goes, jaerdaph -- let me know if you post an actual play report or something?

                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "jaerdaph" <jjbardales@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > We're planning on picking PCs directly from the WWII American hero team supplement and using any remaining American heroes, heroes from other nations' teams (especially if they have an American hero rival) and the villain teams as NPCs.
                      >
                      > jaerdaph
                      >
                      > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we've done an American
                      > > hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they
                      > > all seem to be selling about the same, with a slight edge in sales to the
                      > > American hero team.
                      > >
                      > > So from my perspective, people don't seem to be shying away from interesting
                      > > hero characters at least.
                      >
                    • curtmeyer@gmail.com
                      That s a good point, but I still like the flavor of heroes. But, yes, PCs should be the focus of the game.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                        That's a good point, but I still like the "flavor" of heroes. But, yes, PCs should be the focus of the game.
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