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What's the deal with NPC heroes?

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  • Jakub
    See I don t understand why so much space in supers settings is devoted to the NPC heroes. I ve always thought it s the PCs that are supposed to be the stars of
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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      See I don't understand why so much space in supers settings is devoted to the NPC heroes. I've always thought it's the PCs that are supposed to be the stars of the story. I don't really mind villain books, because they're like Monster Manuals of supers gaming (even though I feel that a hero should always have his own personal nemesis - which is almost never supported by the published adventures).

      My issue is with settings devoting so much space to the "good" NPCs that they would overshadow the players' characters. I understand that there should be some heroes described, but do they all need to be statted and their backstory delivered on 2-3 pages? Overly detailed description of a NPC doesn't really make sense if he's not going to be used.

      I know that there might be reasons for it (like "here's how to create a guy that's like Superman", or "he will eventually turn evil", "if PCs will need Big Guns, here's Thor"), but in non-licenced games I simply don't see the appeal of statting and detailed descriptions of NPCs that will participate only in background. I think that yes, it's great to fight alongside Superman once in a while, but a) it's not so great to fight alongside Superman's knockoff and b) it's not Superman who's supposed to be the hero in games.

      Well, that was my rant, what do you think?
    • Soylent Green
      Yeah, I pretty much agree. Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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        Yeah, I pretty much agree. Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly appeared on the web as promotional material.


        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        From: erpegis@...
        Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 10:39:30 +0000
        Subject: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?

         
        See I don't understand why so much space in supers settings is devoted to the NPC heroes. I've always thought it's the PCs that are supposed to be the stars of the story. I don't really mind villain books, because they're like Monster Manuals of supers gaming (even though I feel that a hero should always have his own personal nemesis - which is almost never supported by the published adventures).

        My issue is with settings devoting so much space to the "good" NPCs that they would overshadow the players' characters. I understand that there should be some heroes described, but do they all need to be statted and their backstory delivered on 2-3 pages? Overly detailed description of a NPC doesn't really make sense if he's not going to be used.

        I know that there might be reasons for it (like "here's how to create a guy that's like Superman", or "he will eventually turn evil", "if PCs will need Big Guns, here's Thor"), but in non-licenced games I simply don't see the appeal of statting and detailed descriptions of NPCs that will participate only in background. I think that yes, it's great to fight alongside Superman once in a while, but a) it's not so great to fight alongside Superman's knockoff and b) it's not Superman who's supposed to be the hero in games.

        Well, that was my rant, what do you think?


      • Tim K.
        ... Not so hot, while I tend to concur, you d be surprised how many people want heroes in a book. As examples, as NPC s, as what have you. My choice was to
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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          > Well, that was my rant, what do you think?
          >
          >


          Not so hot, while I tend to concur, you'd be surprised how many people
          want heroes in a book. As examples, as NPC's, as what have you. My
          choice was to give villains only with a few very narrow examples for
          mentors/allies/rivals. It didn't work out so well from the demands point
          of view.

          Tim Kirk (Hearts & Souls creator.)
        • Gareth-Michael Skarka
          ... By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be the focus. We give hero write-ups when they re neccessary to an adventure (the
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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            On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:

             Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly appeared on the web as promotional material.

            By design, and exactly for the reasons described.    Your heroes should be the focus.

            We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.

            ---

            Gareth-Michael Skarka    

            Adamant Entertainment

            gms@...


          • Eli
            Let me chime in as one of those people who like heroes in a book. I can understand the reasoning for not having them, but I do prefer to have some. I feel that
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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              Let me chime in as one of those people who like heroes in a book. I can understand the reasoning for not having them, but I do prefer to have some. I feel that they are especially useful in themed settings or settings that are trying to establish a particular universe as they show players what sorts of heroes are out there besides themselves. Also, no comic book hero exists in a vacuum (unless he’s not in an expansive comic universe). They have friends, team-ups, rivals.

               

              As a few examples Spider-Man teamed up with EVERYBODY. Batman has his rivalry with Green Arrow. There are of course large team rosters like Justice League and Avengers types groups where the players do not necessarily constitute the entirety of the team.

               

              I do agree that more villains than heroes is a good thing, but there are good reasons for including heroes.

               

              -Eli

               

              From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gareth-Michael Skarka
              Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 7:57 AM
              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?

               

               

               

              On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:



               Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly appeared on the web as promotional material.

               

              By design, and exactly for the reasons described.    Your heroes should be the focus.

               

              We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.

            • Charles Rice
              I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we ve done an American hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they all seem to
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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                I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we've done an American hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they all seem to be selling about the same, with a slight edge in sales to the American hero team.

                So from my perspective, people don't seem to be shying away from interesting hero characters at least.

                On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Eli <emu2020@...> wrote:
                 

                Let me chime in as one of those people who like heroes in a book. I can understand the reasoning for not having them, but I do prefer to have some. I feel that they are especially useful in themed settings or settings that are trying to establish a particular universe as they show players what sorts of heroes are out there besides themselves. Also, no comic book hero exists in a vacuum (unless he’s not in an expansive comic universe). They have friends, team-ups, rivals.

                 

                As a few examples Spider-Man teamed up with EVERYBODY. Batman has his rivalry with Green Arrow. There are of course large team rosters like Justice League and Avengers types groups where the players do not necessarily constitute the entirety of the team.

                 

                I do agree that more villains than heroes is a good thing, but there are good reasons for including heroes.

                 

                -Eli

                 

                From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gareth-Michael Skarka
                Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 7:57 AM
                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?

                 

                 

                 

                On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:



                 Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly appeared on the web as promotional material.

                 

                By design, and exactly for the reasons described.    Your heroes should be the focus.

                 

                We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.


              • jaerdaph
                We re planning on picking PCs directly from the WWII American hero team supplement and using any remaining American heroes, heroes from other nations teams
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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                  We're planning on picking PCs directly from the WWII American hero team supplement and using any remaining American heroes, heroes from other nations' teams (especially if they have an American hero rival) and the villain teams as NPCs.

                  jaerdaph

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we've done an American
                  > hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they
                  > all seem to be selling about the same, with a slight edge in sales to the
                  > American hero team.
                  >
                  > So from my perspective, people don't seem to be shying away from interesting
                  > hero characters at least.
                • Craig McRoberts
                  Ok, I know this is off topic, or at least tangential, but am I the only one who reads the subject of this thread with a Jerry Seinfeld voice? And with that,
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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                    Ok, I know this is off topic, or at least tangential, but am I the only one who reads the subject of this thread with a Jerry Seinfeld voice? And with that, I'm back to lurking and reading and absorbing.

                    Craig
                  • Charles Rice
                    It was just you. Until I read this anyway. Curses! (just kidding)
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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                      It was just you.

                      Until I read this anyway.

                      Curses!

                      (just kidding)

                      On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:34 PM, Craig McRoberts <imprimis5@...> wrote:
                       

                      Ok, I know this is off topic, or at least tangential, but am I the only one who reads the subject of this thread with a Jerry Seinfeld voice? And with that, I'm back to lurking and reading and absorbing.

                      Craig

                    • Charles Rice
                      That s neat! For the record, my players did the same thing. Hornet, Marauder and Minuteman are real PCs, while other members of the Vigilance Force were
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 2, 2010
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                        That's neat!

                        For the record, my players did the same thing. Hornet, Marauder and Minuteman are "real" PCs, while other members of the Vigilance Force were NPCs, though many have been played as guest characters by visiting players.

                        On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:26 PM, jaerdaph <jjbardales@...> wrote:
                         

                        We're planning on picking PCs directly from the WWII American hero team supplement and using any remaining American heroes, heroes from other nations' teams (especially if they have an American hero rival) and the villain teams as NPCs.

                        jaerdaph



                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we've done an American
                        > hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they
                        > all seem to be selling about the same, with a slight edge in sales to the
                        > American hero team.
                        >
                        > So from my perspective, people don't seem to be shying away from interesting
                        > hero characters at least.


                      • eric troup
                        Actually, I m glad you brought up Sins of the Past, because I have a mechanics question about running it and similar encounters. Obviously, from reading the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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                          Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.

                          Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here, we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.

                          But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC?  They have their own Qualities and Challenges and such.  Do they use Determination like the PC?  Are they rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)

                          I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).

                          I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.

                          Thanks.


                          On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:

                           


                          On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:

                           Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly appeared on the web as promotional material.

                          By design, and exactly for the reasons described.    Your heroes should be the focus.

                          We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.

                          ---

                          Gareth-Michael Skarka    

                          Adamant Entertainment

                          gms@...




                        • jaerdaph
                          LOL! Back in my 3e D&D days, I couldn t say Mystic Thurge without doing the Daffy Duck voice. :) jaerdaph
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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                            LOL!

                            Back in my 3e D&D days, I couldn't say "Mystic Thurge" without doing the Daffy Duck voice. :)

                            jaerdaph

                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Craig McRoberts <imprimis5@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Ok, I know this is off topic, or at least tangential, but am I the only one who reads the subject of this thread with a Jerry Seinfeld voice? And with that, I'm back to lurking and reading and absorbing.
                            >
                            > Craig
                            > >
                            >
                          • Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer
                            I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They can be
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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                              I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They can  be contacts, foils, plot devices, etc, and if a character appears repeatedly in an rpg line's art for example, I'd like stats and background.
                            • Tommy Brownell
                              I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players want to
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
                                like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
                                want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
                                handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
                                stuff away.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: eric troup
                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
                                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?



                                Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
                                mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.


                                Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
                                Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
                                we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
                                which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.


                                But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
                                a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
                                Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
                                rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)


                                I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
                                fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
                                rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).


                                I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
                                reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
                                anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.


                                Thanks.




                                On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:





                                On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:


                                Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
                                provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
                                like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
                                appeared on the web as promotional material.


                                By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
                                the focus.


                                We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
                                Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
                                extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.


                                ---


                                Gareth-Michael Skarka
                                Adamant Entertainment
                                gms@...











                                No virus found in this incoming message.
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                              • eric troup
                                Agreed. Only time I ve ever been guilty of handwaving was in a Spirit of the Century game where we had an extremely limited amount of time left to finish the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                  Agreed. Only time I've ever been guilty of handwaving was in a Spirit of the Century game where we had an extremely limited amount of time left to finish the adventure, no chance for a next session (It was a Christmas-themed story and we weren't due to meet back until after the holidays; what fun would that have been?), and it was a huuuuuuuge battle involving our PCs, our main villain, a bunch of his minions, a revolt of workers, a tribe of angry Yeti, and the saving or destruction of Santa's workshop. (Not as cheesy as it sounds, actually). Poor planning on my part left us with about 15 minutes to resolve this whole thing, and therefore, many of the ancillary characters got handwaved for the sake of time. Ended up having a blast though. Took a very narrativist approach to the whole thing, and in some ways, though I hate to admit it as I'm not a fan of hand-waving, I think it wound up being more successful than if we'd taken the time to roll every little piece of that pie on the table.

                                  Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.


                                  On 3 Oct 2010, at 12:36, Tommy Brownell wrote:

                                  > I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
                                  > like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
                                  > want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
                                  > handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
                                  > stuff away.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: eric troup
                                  > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
                                  > mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
                                  > Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
                                  > we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
                                  > which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
                                  > a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
                                  > Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
                                  > rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
                                  > fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
                                  > rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
                                  > reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
                                  > anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thanks.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
                                  > provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
                                  > like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
                                  > appeared on the web as promotional material.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
                                  > the focus.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
                                  > Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
                                  > extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ---
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Gareth-Michael Skarka
                                  > Adamant Entertainment
                                  > gms@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3173 - Release Date: 10/02/10
                                  > 13:05:00
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Jakub
                                  ... Not really. I think that in all games, but especially in supers games your friends/foils/contacts need to be personalized - that s why ICONS and the
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Curt \"Cripplepotomus\" Meyer" <curtmeyer@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I actually like NPC heroes, though I like optional rules a lot more: like
                                    > new powers, vehicles, etc. Your characters can interact with them. They can
                                    > be contacts, foils, plot devices, etc, and if a character appears repeatedly
                                    > in an rpg line's art for example, I'd like stats and background.
                                    >

                                    Not really. I think that in all games, but especially in supers games your friends/foils/contacts need to be personalized - that's why ICONS and the characters-as-aspects rule, and that's why i'm waiting for the nemesis creation rules in Villainomicon.
                                    If I don't have any influence on creation of the character of my rival or greatest enemy, it doesn't really feel like a supers game.
                                  • Jakub
                                    ... Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.

                                      Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are attacking the slaves, but the slavers join the combat to protect the servants), and I want to adopt this approach in ICONS, especially that the great finale of my campaign should ideally be a great epic battle in space between all the heroes and villains, rebel aliens and evil invading alien sect.
                                    • eric troup
                                      That s kinda where I got the idea to let the players control the GA during combat, actually. I may have my pet peeves regarding Savage Worlds, but there s a
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                        That's kinda where I got the idea to let the players control the GA during combat, actually.  I may have my pet peeves regarding Savage Worlds, but there's a whole lot to like about it.


                                        On 4 Oct 2010, at 02:43, Jakub wrote:

                                         

                                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Yeah, I'm leaning toward letting the players control their actions during combat, with the understanding that they're basically making my job easier, and so if I need to put words in those characters' mouths, I can.

                                        Savage Worlds has this as an explicit system rule - the PCs control ALL their allies, even the ones that are against them (like in Evernight, the rats are attacking the slaves, but the slavers join the combat to protect the servants), and I want to adopt this approach in ICONS, especially that the great finale of my campaign should ideally be a great epic battle in space between all the heroes and villains, rebel aliens and evil invading alien sect.


                                      • Soylent Green
                                        Pretty much in agreement. Handing them over the the player is quite cute and with a simple system it s easy to do.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                          Pretty much in agreement. Handing them over the the player is quite cute and with a simple system it's easy to do.

                                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: tommyb@...
                                          > Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:36:54 -0500
                                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
                                          >
                                          > I would either A) turn them over to the players to use or B) handle them
                                          > like the PCs, rolling dice and all...depending on whether or not the players
                                          > want to deal with them, basically. They only thing I would not do is
                                          > handwave their actions, because I hate when games just completely handwave
                                          > stuff away.
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: eric troup
                                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:12 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] What's the deal with NPC heroes?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Actually, I'm glad you brought up "Sins of the Past," because I have a
                                          > mechanics question about running it and similar encounters.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Obviously, from reading the Icons rules, we know how a hero uses
                                          > Determination to fight a villain ... and from forum posts and writings here,
                                          > we have some ideas of how to handle when a Villain wants to do something
                                          > which would require spending Determination to affect our heroes.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > But what do you do when you've got other heroes (say, the GOlden Agents, as
                                          > a f'rinstance) fighting alongside the PC? They have their own Qualities and
                                          > Challenges and such. Do they use Determination like the PC? Are they
                                          > rolling dice along with the PC? (Presumably not.)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I even thought about offloading the Golden Agents to the players during a
                                          > fight sequence, so they would be controlled by the players and subject to
                                          > rules players follow (just for the duration of an encounter).
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I just used the Golden Agents as an example here because I happen to be
                                          > reading the adventure (and loving it, by the way!), but this could come up
                                          > anytime one wants to do a "team-up" issue of some sort.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 2 Oct 2010, at 07:57, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Soylent Green wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Icons seems to have not gone down this route though. The rule book only
                                          > provides villain NPCs. And while I suppose there are a few official heroes
                                          > like the Mighty Saguaro (who is totally awesome by the way) they mostly
                                          > appeared on the web as promotional material.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > By design, and exactly for the reasons described. Your heroes should be
                                          > the focus.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > We give hero write-ups when they're neccessary to an adventure (the Golden
                                          > Agents in SINS OF THE PAST, for example), but beyond that, dont' expect an
                                          > extensive pantheon of NPC heroes in ICONS.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ---
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Gareth-Michael Skarka
                                          > Adamant Entertainment
                                          > gms@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • dirkgentry2000
                                          I d love to hear how that game goes, jaerdaph -- let me know if you post an actual play report or something?
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                            I'd love to hear how that game goes, jaerdaph -- let me know if you post an actual play report or something?

                                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "jaerdaph" <jjbardales@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > We're planning on picking PCs directly from the WWII American hero team supplement and using any remaining American heroes, heroes from other nations' teams (especially if they have an American hero rival) and the villain teams as NPCs.
                                            >
                                            > jaerdaph
                                            >
                                            > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I know of the WWII books Vigilance Press has done, we've done an American
                                            > > hero team, a German villain team and a British hero team so far, and they
                                            > > all seem to be selling about the same, with a slight edge in sales to the
                                            > > American hero team.
                                            > >
                                            > > So from my perspective, people don't seem to be shying away from interesting
                                            > > hero characters at least.
                                            >
                                          • curtmeyer@gmail.com
                                            That s a good point, but I still like the flavor of heroes. But, yes, PCs should be the focus of the game.
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                              That's a good point, but I still like the "flavor" of heroes. But, yes, PCs should be the focus of the game.
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