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Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

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  • Tommy Brownell
    As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them. ... From: Soylent Green To: icons group Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM Subject: [icons-rpg] How
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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      As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
      Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

       


      So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

      So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 



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    • Tim K.
      I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things that might seem to
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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        I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
        depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
        that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
        events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.


        I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
        criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
        it upon themselves.
      • Michael Taylor
        ... As a Player and a GM I ve always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back pet villians arbitrarily. The Villians & Vigilantes RPG
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 24, 2010
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          > So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?
          >
          > So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?
          >

          As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.
           
          The Villians & Vigilantes RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=81970) has a system for running the trials of the criminals (there are other systems and tables floating around as well).
           
          A couple of dice rolls and you can *fairly* determine how soon the criminal can escape from jail or maybe get bounced on a techicallity.
           
          This can also lead to more storie possiblities than just plunking the villian back in and give the chance for PCs to interact with laywers, cops, bail-bondsmen, etc.
           
          Also, doing it randomly means the PCs won't quickly figure out which villians are your 'pets'.
           
          JMO.
           
           
           
        • Soylent Green
          Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole they
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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            Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole "they had defeated" bit.
             

            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: tommyb@...
            Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0500
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

             
            As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
            Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

             


            So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

            So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 




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          • Tommy Brownell
            I can t believe that just now showed up, a week later...=P I see what you re saying...I think that as long as the villain s plot was noticeably foiled (i.e.,
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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              I can't believe that just now showed up, a week later...=P

              I see what you're saying...I think that as long as the villain's plot was
              noticeably foiled (i.e., he doesn't show up the next session having picked
              up exactly where he left off - unless that is a specific plot point you are
              building towards [an unrelenting advance towards an end goal, if that makes
              sense]) then having them show up only a session or two later isn't anything
              too crazy. It might get old before it actually gets frustrating.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Soylent Green
              To: icons group
              Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:01 AM
              Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?



              Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the
              feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole
              "they had defeated" bit.




              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              From: tommyb@...
              Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0500
              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?


              As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Soylent Green
              To: icons group
              Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
              Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?




              So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows
              the Troll died in that cave in, right?

              So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?







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            • Soylent Green
              ... And that s an excellent point. To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: silverlion@gmail.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                >> it upon themselves.

                And that's an excellent point.
                 

                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: silverlion@...
                Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                 


                I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                it upon themselves.


              • Tommy Brownell
                Although in Troll s case it s a moot point, since he s not behind bars. Which begs another question: Does Presumed Dead have a different expiration date than
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                  Although in Troll's case it's a moot point, since he's not behind bars.
                   
                  Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:37 AM
                  Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                   

                  >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                  >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                  >> it upon themselves.

                  And that's an excellent point.
                   


                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                  From: silverlion@...
                  Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                  Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                   


                  I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                  depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                  that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                  events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                  I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                  criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                  it upon themselves.




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                • Soylent Green
                  If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) m pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                    If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                     
                    Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                     
                    Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                     

                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: tommyb@...
                    Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 05:04:44 -0500
                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                     
                    Although in Troll's case it's a moot point, since he's not behind bars.
                     
                    Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:37 AM
                    Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                     

                    >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                    >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                    >> it upon themselves.

                    And that's an excellent point.
                     


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: silverlion@...
                    Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                     


                    I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                    depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                    that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                    events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                    I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                    criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                    it upon themselves.






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                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                  • Eli
                    Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains. 1)
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                      Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains.

                       

                      1)      Robot/clone duplicate

                      2)      Ancient secret death trance

                      3)      Henchman body double (willing or not)

                      4)      Unidentifiable remains. He has to be dead, we found his ring, right? The tattered remains of Dr. Really Bad’s cape fluttering on a piece of the wreckage you saw fall on him.

                      5)      Super science contingency plan. Pretty much anything that would allow for an obviously dead villain to have kept himself alive at the last minute – teleporter, mind transferral, dimensional shift, time jump, etc. It works for the Daleks.

                      6)      Heroic hubris. The heroes themselves can give the villain all the opportunity to have escaped certain demise. Some players/characters are just a bit too confident in their abilities.

                       

                      Any of the above things can be used together or sperately.

                       

                      From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Soylent Green
                      Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:04 AM
                      To: icons group
                      Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                       

                       

                      If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                       
                      Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                       
                      Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                       

                    • Soylent Green
                      There is no question that death can be explained away, it s more a question of when can you (the GM) get away with it with full player buy-in and does it feel
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                        There is no question that death can be explained away, it's more a question of when can you (the GM) get away with it with full player buy-in and  does it feel contrived to the players.


                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        From: emu2020@...
                        Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:37:24 -0700
                        Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                         

                        Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains.

                         

                        1)      Robot/clone duplicate

                        2)      Ancient secret death trance

                        3)      Henchman body double (willing or not)

                        4)      Unidentifiable remains. He has to be dead, we found his ring, right? The tattered remains of Dr. Really Bad’s cape fluttering on a piece of the wreckage you saw fall on him.

                        5)      Super science contingency plan. Pretty much anything that would allow for an obviously dead villain to have kept himself alive at the last minute – teleporter, mind transferral, dimensional shift, time jump, etc. It works for the Daleks.

                        6)      Heroic hubris. The heroes themselves can give the villain all the opportunity to have escaped certain demise. Some players/characters are just a bit too confident in their abilities.

                         

                        Any of the above things can be used together or sperately.

                         

                        From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Soylent Green
                        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:04 AM
                        To: icons group
                        Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                         

                         

                        If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                         
                        Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                         
                        Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                         

                      • Soylent Green
                        That s sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn t care much for random tables, but I ve grown to respect their chaotic power. To:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                          That's sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn't care much for random tables, but I've grown to respect their chaotic power.


                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: michaeltaylor1329@...
                          Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:50:29 +0000
                          Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                           
                          > So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?
                          >
                          > So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?
                          >

                          As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.
                           
                          The Villians & Vigilantes RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=81970) has a system for running the trials of the criminals (there are other systems and tables floating around as well).
                           
                          A couple of dice rolls and you can *fairly* determine how soon the criminal can escape from jail or maybe get bounced on a techicallity.
                           
                          This can also lead to more storie possiblities than just plunking the villian back in and give the chance for PCs to interact with laywers, cops, bail-bondsmen, etc.
                           
                          Also, doing it randomly means the PCs won't quickly figure out which villians are your 'pets'.
                           
                          JMO.
                           
                           
                           

                        • Tim K.
                          ... Heh. That s simply what writer s of comics do. I try and make sure my player s understand when we are playing comic book superheroes (not just superheroes)
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                            > As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.


                            Heh. That's simply what writer's of comics do. I try and make sure my
                            player's understand when we are playing comic book superheroes (not just
                            superheroes) with all that implies. There is a difference in tone for me
                            between the two, a bit of intentional amorphousness to the nature of
                            reality in the former. It is where villains come back, and come back and
                            escape, and so on.

                            Even killing them isn't a good idea, because you might make them more
                            powerful next time around. (I love the knowing nod given in both the V&V
                            comic book, and Astro City to this happenstance occurring.)

                            Albeit I try and not overuse anything too much, it can be frustrating to
                            the players. That's true of any game and any GM decision that isn't
                            framed by rules. "Goblins again?" is much the same. You always have to
                            add a bit of original spin to GMing anything.
                          • Michael Taylor
                            ... There is a Marvel Superheroes article called Nobody Lasts Forever - But Death rarely has the last word on superheroes by David Edward Martin
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 2, 2010
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                              > Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                              >

                              There is a Marvel Superheroes article called "Nobody Lasts Forever - But Death rarely has the last word on superheroes"
                              by David Edward Martin (http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/AFenTA-cjM-KKzwhtwGqPg7Q16JrNTXFZ7WPBuCJKI8j5ejSKvOEN2NxerC8njbVov32mUuNaMiVG5o2pR6Huw/MSH%20Marvel%20Phile%20and%20Articles/Articles%20-%20MSH%20Campaign%20Tips.pdf).

                              This deals with what happens when heroes die and is a pretty good way to deal with Villians as well.

                              Again, it's not so much a matter of 'when' that will frustrate players, as how.

                              If he comes back from death with 'just a scratch' it takes away alot of the suspension of disbelive.
                            • eric troup
                              But isn t the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre? I
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                But isn't the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre?  I mean, look at Batman.  How many times can those villains break out of Arkham Asylum?  And it's never the police who bring them back.  I struggle with this a bit in my own games.  My father was a cop, so it's hard for me to make them completely incompetent, but if they were really doing their jobs, there wouldn't be much need for supers except for hired muscle to take down the superbads.  It's a tricky line to walk.


                                On 1 Oct 2010, at 02:37, Soylent Green wrote:

                                 

                                >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                >> it upon themselves.

                                And that's an excellent point.
                                 


                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                From: silverlion@...
                                Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                 


                                I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                                depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                                that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                                events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                                I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                it upon themselves.




                              • Michael Taylor
                                ... Lots of GMs feel that way and I ve never understood it. They have a lot of benefits: a) They re unpredictable. There s nothing worse that recognizing a
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                  > That's sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn't care much for random tables, but I've grown to respect their chaotic power.
                                  >

                                  Lots of GMs feel that way and I've never understood it. They have a lot of benefits:

                                  a) They're unpredictable. There's nothing worse that recognizing a GM's plot or NPCs from a recent movie or comic book!
                                  b) They're fair. You don't look like you're picking on anyone in particular.
                                  c) They're different. You tend to get player buy-in because you're pulling in something new.
                                  d) They're inspiring. The great thing is that they can give you ideas you never would have thought of.
                                • Michael Taylor
                                  ... I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement! It doesn t seem tricky at all. The
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                    > But isn't the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre? I mean, look at Batman. How many times can those villains break out of Arkham Asylum? And it's never the police who bring them back. I struggle with this a bit in my own games. My father was a cop, so it's hard for me to make them completely incompetent, but if they were really doing their jobs, there wouldn't be much need for supers except for hired muscle to take down the superbads. It's a tricky line to walk.
                                    >

                                    I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement!

                                    It doesn't seem tricky at all. The justice system in the comics is a million times more capable than in the real world!

                                    That's why its a fantasy! ;)
                                  • emu2020@comcast.net
                                    In the defense of law enforcement, I m sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they d be able to
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                      In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.

                                       

                                      -Eli




                                      I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement!

                                      It doesn't seem tricky at all. The justice system in the comics is a million times more capable than in the real world!

                                      That's why its a fantasy! ;)


                                    • Michael Taylor
                                      ... I think that s why comic superheroes are so compelling. The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 5, 2010
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                                        > In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.
                                        >

                                        I think that's why comic superheroes are so compelling.

                                        The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic organizations can.
                                      • Soylent Green
                                        Absolutely To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: michaeltaylor1329@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:14:14 +0000 Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: How soon is too
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 6, 2010
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                                          Absolutely


                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: michaeltaylor1329@...
                                          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:14:14 +0000
                                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: How soon is too soon?

                                           

                                          > In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.
                                          >

                                          I think that's why comic superheroes are so compelling.

                                          The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic organizations can.
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