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How soon is too soon?

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  • Soylent Green
    So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right? So how long before the GM can legitimately
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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      So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

      So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 
    • Tommy Brownell
      As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them. ... From: Soylent Green To: icons group Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM Subject: [icons-rpg] How
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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        As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
        Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

         


        So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

        So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 



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      • Mike Olson
        Wait two scenarios. You could wait for three, but two s enough not to seem desperate. *Swingers* references aside, I really think you do want to wait long
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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          Wait two scenarios. You could wait for three, but two's enough not to seem desperate.
           
          Swingers references aside, I really think you do want to wait long enough for the players to kinda forget about Sin and the Troll, and the best way to do that is to give them at least two other full-blown problems to solve in the interim. If you bring them back too soon, it won't be a surprise, and if you keep doing that they'll just get bored with them. But if Sin's a recurring villain that pops up, say, a few times a year (real-time), it better serves his image as a recurring villain (as opposed to the only villain in town).
           
          --Mike

          On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:



          So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

          So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 



        • Eli
          There are really no hard fast rules in comics. The villain could show up next issue, having clawed himself out of the wreckage and even more angry. The Dr will
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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            There are really no hard fast rules in comics. The villain could show up next issue, having clawed himself out of the wreckage and even more angry. The Dr will have to have some time to hatch his plans unless he has a way to escape while in transit to his incarceration. Perhaps it is only a robot duplicate that is being sent to prison. Meanwhile Dr. Sin is busy at work hatching his next plan, or perhaps the duplicate is part of his plan rigged with explosives or poison gas to be triggered once he’s in a crowded court room with a judge and his nemesis who must testify against him.

             

            Really, you have carte blanche to cook up whatever you want for your villains’ comeback.

             

            -Eli

             


            So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

            So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 

          • Gareth-Michael Skarka
            Greetings ICONics!! We ve just released a brand-new official ICONS adventure: JAILBREAK!, written by Eddy Webb (World of Darkness Developer, White Wolf
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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              Greetings ICONics!!

              We've just released a brand-new official ICONS adventure:   JAILBREAK!, written by Eddy Webb (World of Darkness Developer, White Wolf Publishing), with art (as always) by Dan "Alien Mastermind" Houser:

              What twist of fate has landed our heroes in jail? How will they escape? And who is... the Killer Gamemaster?



              ------------

              Gareth-Michael Skarka    

              Adamant Entertainment

              (785) 393-8290

              gms@...


            • Soylent Green
              Cool, got to check it out. Teh artwork alone would do it for me :-) To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: gms@adamantentertainment.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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                Cool, got to check it out. Teh artwork alone would do it for me :-)



                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: gms@...
                Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 16:07:44 -0500
                Subject: [icons-rpg] JAILBREAK!

                 
                Greetings ICONics!!

                We've just released a brand-new official ICONS adventure:   JAILBREAK!, written by Eddy Webb (World of Darkness Developer, White Wolf Publishing), with art (as always) by Dan "Alien Mastermind" Houser:

                What twist of fate has landed our heroes in jail? How will they escape? And who is... the Killer Gamemaster?



                ------------
                Gareth-Michael Skarka    
                Adamant Entertainment
                (785) 393-8290
                gms@...


              • Tim K.
                I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things that might seem to
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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                  I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                  depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                  that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                  events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.


                  I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                  criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                  it upon themselves.
                • Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer
                  Cool! ...just downloaded it. I do have one question that s been bugging me for a while: who s the heroine in red-white-and-blue that appears on the cover of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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                    Cool! ...just downloaded it. I do have one question that's been bugging me for a while: who's the heroine in red-white-and-blue that appears on the cover of Jailbreak! and of the core book and where can I get her stats? Most of the other stock characters I've been able to download from the Adamant site or from rpg.net.
                  • Gareth-Michael Skarka
                    That s All-American Girl! We haven t given her stats yet... But we will! -G
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 23, 2010
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                      That's All-American Girl!       We haven't given her stats yet...  But we will!

                      -G




                      On Sep 23, 2010, at 8:21 PM, Curt Cripplepotomus Meyer wrote:



                      Cool! ...just downloaded it. I do have one question that's been bugging me for a while: who's the heroine in red-white-and-blue that appears on the cover of Jailbreak! and of the core book and where can I get her stats? Most of the other stock characters I've been able to download from the Adamant site or from rpg.net. 



                    • Soylent Green
                      Yeah. Obviously as a GM you can engineer any situation to bring back a villain so the real limiting factor is the player s tolerance for such things. I mean if
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 24, 2010
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                        Yeah. Obviously as a GM you can engineer any situation to bring back a villain so the real limiting factor is the player's tolerance for such things. I mean if the guy the party arrested last week is back on the streets the next session the players might start feeling it's all kind of pointless.
                         
                        And yet you need recurring villains. They are the lifeblood of the superhero genre - more so than any other genre I suspect. You lose a lot of the flavour without them.
                        I think you make a good point. The "waiting" period is not necessarily measured in number of sessions (issues?) but by the relative importance of what happens in between.
                         
                        Some other random thoughts.
                         
                        * Organisations, like HYDRA or the Maggia make excellent recurring villains for roleplaying games.
                         
                        * As a GM never assume the villain will manage to get away. Sure it happens all the time in comics the roleplaying games don't work that way.
                         
                        * For an Icon specific solution for recurring villains, the GM might consider giving the players a Determination Point when a previously defeated villains escapes from prison or returns from the dead through some act of GM fiat.

                         

                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        From: devlin1@...
                        Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:15:33 -0700
                        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                         
                        Wait two scenarios. You could wait for three, but two's enough not to seem desperate.
                         
                        Swingers references aside, I really think you do want to wait long enough for the players to kinda forget about Sin and the Troll, and the best way to do that is to give them at least two other full-blown problems to solve in the interim. If you bring them back too soon, it won't be a surprise, and if you keep doing that they'll just get bored with them. But if Sin's a recurring villain that pops up, say, a few times a year (real-time), it better serves his image as a recurring villain (as opposed to the only villain in town).
                         
                        --Mike

                        On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:



                        So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

                        So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 




                      • Michael Taylor
                        ... As a Player and a GM I ve always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back pet villians arbitrarily. The Villians & Vigilantes RPG
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 24, 2010
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                          > So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?
                          >
                          > So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?
                          >

                          As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.
                           
                          The Villians & Vigilantes RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=81970) has a system for running the trials of the criminals (there are other systems and tables floating around as well).
                           
                          A couple of dice rolls and you can *fairly* determine how soon the criminal can escape from jail or maybe get bounced on a techicallity.
                           
                          This can also lead to more storie possiblities than just plunking the villian back in and give the chance for PCs to interact with laywers, cops, bail-bondsmen, etc.
                           
                          Also, doing it randomly means the PCs won't quickly figure out which villians are your 'pets'.
                           
                          JMO.
                           
                           
                           
                        • Soylent Green
                          Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole they
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                            Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole "they had defeated" bit.
                             

                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            From: tommyb@...
                            Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0500
                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                             
                            As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
                            Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                             


                            So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?

                            So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again? 




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                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3154 - Release Date: 09/23/10 01:34:00


                          • Tommy Brownell
                            I can t believe that just now showed up, a week later...=P I see what you re saying...I think that as long as the villain s plot was noticeably foiled (i.e.,
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                              I can't believe that just now showed up, a week later...=P

                              I see what you're saying...I think that as long as the villain's plot was
                              noticeably foiled (i.e., he doesn't show up the next session having picked
                              up exactly where he left off - unless that is a specific plot point you are
                              building towards [an unrelenting advance towards an end goal, if that makes
                              sense]) then having them show up only a session or two later isn't anything
                              too crazy. It might get old before it actually gets frustrating.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Soylent Green
                              To: icons group
                              Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:01 AM
                              Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?



                              Well sure. I was thinking more in terms in terms of player perception, the
                              feeling that bringing back the bad guy they had defeated cheapens the whole
                              "they had defeated" bit.




                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              From: tommyb@...
                              Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:14:51 -0500
                              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?


                              As soon as the GM has a good excuse to use them.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Soylent Green
                              To: icons group
                              Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 1:35 PM
                              Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?




                              So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows
                              the Troll died in that cave in, right?

                              So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?







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                              Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3154 - Release Date: 09/23/10
                              01:34:00









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                            • Soylent Green
                              ... And that s an excellent point. To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: silverlion@gmail.com Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                >> it upon themselves.

                                And that's an excellent point.
                                 

                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                From: silverlion@...
                                Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                 


                                I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                                depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                                that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                                events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                                I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                it upon themselves.


                              • Tommy Brownell
                                Although in Troll s case it s a moot point, since he s not behind bars. Which begs another question: Does Presumed Dead have a different expiration date than
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                  Although in Troll's case it's a moot point, since he's not behind bars.
                                   
                                  Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:37 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                   

                                  >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                  >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                  >> it upon themselves.

                                  And that's an excellent point.
                                   


                                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: silverlion@...
                                  Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                                  Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                   


                                  I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                                  depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                                  that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                                  events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                                  I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                  criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                  it upon themselves.




                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3169 - Release Date: 09/30/10 13:34:00
                                • Soylent Green
                                  If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) m pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                    If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                                     
                                    Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                                     
                                    Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                                     

                                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: tommyb@...
                                    Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 05:04:44 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                     
                                    Although in Troll's case it's a moot point, since he's not behind bars.
                                     
                                    Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 4:37 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                     

                                    >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                    >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                    >> it upon themselves.

                                    And that's an excellent point.
                                     


                                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: silverlion@...
                                    Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                     


                                    I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                                    depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                                    that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                                    events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                                    I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                    criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                    it upon themselves.






                                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3169 - Release Date: 09/30/10 13:34:00


                                  • Eli
                                    Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains. 1)
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                      Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains.

                                       

                                      1)      Robot/clone duplicate

                                      2)      Ancient secret death trance

                                      3)      Henchman body double (willing or not)

                                      4)      Unidentifiable remains. He has to be dead, we found his ring, right? The tattered remains of Dr. Really Bad’s cape fluttering on a piece of the wreckage you saw fall on him.

                                      5)      Super science contingency plan. Pretty much anything that would allow for an obviously dead villain to have kept himself alive at the last minute – teleporter, mind transferral, dimensional shift, time jump, etc. It works for the Daleks.

                                      6)      Heroic hubris. The heroes themselves can give the villain all the opportunity to have escaped certain demise. Some players/characters are just a bit too confident in their abilities.

                                       

                                      Any of the above things can be used together or sperately.

                                       

                                      From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Soylent Green
                                      Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:04 AM
                                      To: icons group
                                      Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                       

                                       

                                      If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                                       
                                      Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                                       
                                      Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                                       

                                    • Soylent Green
                                      There is no question that death can be explained away, it s more a question of when can you (the GM) get away with it with full player buy-in and does it feel
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                        There is no question that death can be explained away, it's more a question of when can you (the GM) get away with it with full player buy-in and  does it feel contrived to the players.


                                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: emu2020@...
                                        Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:37:24 -0700
                                        Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                         

                                        Even certain death can be side-stepped pretty easily in this genre, especially in the case of very powerful, wealthy, or intelligent villains.

                                         

                                        1)      Robot/clone duplicate

                                        2)      Ancient secret death trance

                                        3)      Henchman body double (willing or not)

                                        4)      Unidentifiable remains. He has to be dead, we found his ring, right? The tattered remains of Dr. Really Bad’s cape fluttering on a piece of the wreckage you saw fall on him.

                                        5)      Super science contingency plan. Pretty much anything that would allow for an obviously dead villain to have kept himself alive at the last minute – teleporter, mind transferral, dimensional shift, time jump, etc. It works for the Daleks.

                                        6)      Heroic hubris. The heroes themselves can give the villain all the opportunity to have escaped certain demise. Some players/characters are just a bit too confident in their abilities.

                                         

                                        Any of the above things can be used together or sperately.

                                         

                                        From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Soylent Green
                                        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 6:04 AM
                                        To: icons group
                                        Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                         

                                         

                                        If the death was off screen (no corpse found and all) 'm pretty sure no one really believes in or out of character that the guy is dead so I guess you are free to recycle any time.
                                         
                                        Next up is behind bars because there are plenty of logical ways a bad guy could either escape or be let out early.
                                         
                                        Back from certain death is requires the longest wait I think.

                                         

                                      • Soylent Green
                                        That s sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn t care much for random tables, but I ve grown to respect their chaotic power. To:
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                          That's sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn't care much for random tables, but I've grown to respect their chaotic power.


                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: michaeltaylor1329@...
                                          Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 15:50:29 +0000
                                          Subject: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                           
                                          > So the heroes finally manage to send Dr Sin behind bars. And everyone knows the Troll died in that cave in, right?
                                          >
                                          > So how long before the GM can legitimately use these NPCs again?
                                          >

                                          As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.
                                           
                                          The Villians & Vigilantes RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=81970) has a system for running the trials of the criminals (there are other systems and tables floating around as well).
                                           
                                          A couple of dice rolls and you can *fairly* determine how soon the criminal can escape from jail or maybe get bounced on a techicallity.
                                           
                                          This can also lead to more storie possiblities than just plunking the villian back in and give the chance for PCs to interact with laywers, cops, bail-bondsmen, etc.
                                           
                                          Also, doing it randomly means the PCs won't quickly figure out which villians are your 'pets'.
                                           
                                          JMO.
                                           
                                           
                                           

                                        • Tim K.
                                          ... Heh. That s simply what writer s of comics do. I try and make sure my player s understand when we are playing comic book superheroes (not just superheroes)
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 1, 2010
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                                            > As a Player and a GM I've always felt it was pretty bogus to bring back 'pet' villians arbitrarily.


                                            Heh. That's simply what writer's of comics do. I try and make sure my
                                            player's understand when we are playing comic book superheroes (not just
                                            superheroes) with all that implies. There is a difference in tone for me
                                            between the two, a bit of intentional amorphousness to the nature of
                                            reality in the former. It is where villains come back, and come back and
                                            escape, and so on.

                                            Even killing them isn't a good idea, because you might make them more
                                            powerful next time around. (I love the knowing nod given in both the V&V
                                            comic book, and Astro City to this happenstance occurring.)

                                            Albeit I try and not overuse anything too much, it can be frustrating to
                                            the players. That's true of any game and any GM decision that isn't
                                            framed by rules. "Goblins again?" is much the same. You always have to
                                            add a bit of original spin to GMing anything.
                                          • Michael Taylor
                                            ... There is a Marvel Superheroes article called Nobody Lasts Forever - But Death rarely has the last word on superheroes by David Edward Martin
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 2, 2010
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                                              > Which begs another question: Does "Presumed Dead" have a different expiration date than "Behind Bars"? If so, is it longer or shorter?
                                              >

                                              There is a Marvel Superheroes article called "Nobody Lasts Forever - But Death rarely has the last word on superheroes"
                                              by David Edward Martin (http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/AFenTA-cjM-KKzwhtwGqPg7Q16JrNTXFZ7WPBuCJKI8j5ejSKvOEN2NxerC8njbVov32mUuNaMiVG5o2pR6Huw/MSH%20Marvel%20Phile%20and%20Articles/Articles%20-%20MSH%20Campaign%20Tips.pdf).

                                              This deals with what happens when heroes die and is a pretty good way to deal with Villians as well.

                                              Again, it's not so much a matter of 'when' that will frustrate players, as how.

                                              If he comes back from death with 'just a scratch' it takes away alot of the suspension of disbelive.
                                            • eric troup
                                              But isn t the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre? I
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                                But isn't the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre?  I mean, look at Batman.  How many times can those villains break out of Arkham Asylum?  And it's never the police who bring them back.  I struggle with this a bit in my own games.  My father was a cop, so it's hard for me to make them completely incompetent, but if they were really doing their jobs, there wouldn't be much need for supers except for hired muscle to take down the superbads.  It's a tricky line to walk.


                                                On 1 Oct 2010, at 02:37, Soylent Green wrote:

                                                 

                                                >>I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                                >> criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                                >> it upon themselves.

                                                And that's an excellent point.
                                                 


                                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: silverlion@...
                                                Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:48 -0500
                                                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How soon is too soon?

                                                 


                                                I give it enough time to build up paranoia about them coming back. That
                                                depends a lot on the players and the game. Usually I throw in things
                                                that might seem to be them, but aren't here and there. New villains, or
                                                events with a similar--but not identical modus operandi.

                                                I also like to give enough of a spread so that they don't think the
                                                criminal justice system is a complete joke, forcing their hand to take
                                                it upon themselves.




                                              • Michael Taylor
                                                ... Lots of GMs feel that way and I ve never understood it. They have a lot of benefits: a) They re unpredictable. There s nothing worse that recognizing a
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 3, 2010
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                                                  > That's sounds really cool. You know, there was a time I didn't care much for random tables, but I've grown to respect their chaotic power.
                                                  >

                                                  Lots of GMs feel that way and I've never understood it. They have a lot of benefits:

                                                  a) They're unpredictable. There's nothing worse that recognizing a GM's plot or NPCs from a recent movie or comic book!
                                                  b) They're fair. You don't look like you're picking on anyone in particular.
                                                  c) They're different. You tend to get player buy-in because you're pulling in something new.
                                                  d) They're inspiring. The great thing is that they can give you ideas you never would have thought of.
                                                • Michael Taylor
                                                  ... I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement! It doesn t seem tricky at all. The
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                                    > But isn't the incompetency of the criminal justice system (although usually not stated as such in the internal consistency) a hallmark trope in the genre? I mean, look at Batman. How many times can those villains break out of Arkham Asylum? And it's never the police who bring them back. I struggle with this a bit in my own games. My father was a cop, so it's hard for me to make them completely incompetent, but if they were really doing their jobs, there wouldn't be much need for supers except for hired muscle to take down the superbads. It's a tricky line to walk.
                                                    >

                                                    I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement!

                                                    It doesn't seem tricky at all. The justice system in the comics is a million times more capable than in the real world!

                                                    That's why its a fantasy! ;)
                                                  • emu2020@comcast.net
                                                    In the defense of law enforcement, I m sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they d be able to
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Oct 4, 2010
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                                                      In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.

                                                       

                                                      -Eli




                                                      I dont know any cops personally, but IMHO the incompetency of the criminal justice system is a gross understatement!

                                                      It doesn't seem tricky at all. The justice system in the comics is a million times more capable than in the real world!

                                                      That's why its a fantasy! ;)


                                                    • Michael Taylor
                                                      ... I think that s why comic superheroes are so compelling. The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Oct 5, 2010
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                                                        > In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.
                                                        >

                                                        I think that's why comic superheroes are so compelling.

                                                        The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic organizations can.
                                                      • Soylent Green
                                                        Absolutely To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: michaeltaylor1329@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:14:14 +0000 Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: How soon is too
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Oct 6, 2010
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                                                          Absolutely


                                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                          From: michaeltaylor1329@...
                                                          Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:14:14 +0000
                                                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: How soon is too soon?

                                                           

                                                          > In the defense of law enforcement, I'm sure that if they had a bunch of costumed heroers taking down a big percentage of the common thugs, they'd be able to perform up to comic book standards.
                                                          >

                                                          I think that's why comic superheroes are so compelling.

                                                          The idea that smart, capable individuals can make more of a difference than bureaucratic organizations can.
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