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Help me Grok Fast Attack please

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  • MadisonRStone
    So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 15 3:35 PM
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      So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

      But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

      So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.


      Sent from my iPad
    • eric troup
      I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you re right. If there s another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it. Sent from
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 15 4:30 PM
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        I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you're right. If there's another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it.

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

         


        So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

        But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

        So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.

        Sent from my iPad

      • Chris Heard
        I think you understand mechanically how the power works, but might have an estimate of the power s worth that other players might not share. In the Assembled
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 15 4:36 PM
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          I think you understand mechanically how the power works, but might have an estimate of the power's "worth" that other players might not share.

          In the Assembled Edition, Fast Attack lets you repeat one of your other attacks at a level up to your acting ability level or your Fast Attack level, whichever is greater. That attack ability might be Prowess, Coordination, or even Willpower, depending on the exact nature of the attack.

          Imagine a speedster with Prowess 4 and Fast Attack 8, as in the example of Speed Demon in ICONS Assembled. He throws a punch using his normal attack, then another using 4 levels of his Fast Attack, then a third using the remaining 4 levels of his Fast Attack. Three attacks, each at d6 + 4 for his effort.

          Now imagine that he got power-drained or something so that his Fast Attack is down to 6. He throws his regular punch at d6 + 4 effort, his second punch at d6 + 4 effort, but now he has only two levels of Fast Attack left, so he throws his third punch at d6 + 2 effort.

          So it is not useless to roll (using random generation) or buy (using points-based construction) a Fast Attack value lower than your attacking ability value. It just makes your second (or third, or whatever) attack a little bit less likely to hit. Some players might even specifically want this, in order to simulate a hero who can attack twice per panel but is less accurate the second time.

          Does this favor characters with a low attacking ability value? Well … it favors them in terms of number of attacks, but that's a tradeoff with accuracy. Speed Demon, with Prowess 4 and Fast Attack 8, can throw three punches per panel, each at d6 + 4 effort. Tantrum, with Prowess 2 and Fast Attack 10, can throw six punches per panel, each at d6 + 2 — twice as many punches, but significantly less accurate. Players' tastes will vary as to whether they prefer to roll more dice or have bigger bonuses.

          On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg] <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless. 

          Chris Heard
          Heroes Zone Blog (and Podcast, coming soon)
          http://heroes.zone
          ><> ב״ה


        • John McMullen
          Something I was wondering about is, what was broken about the first version? I don t have a lot of experience with Fast Attack, so I never ran into anything.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 15 5:14 PM
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            Something I was wondering about is, what was broken about the first version? I don't have a lot of experience with Fast Attack, so I never ran into anything.

            John

            Sent from my iPad

            On Jul 15, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "eric troup blindgeek@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you're right. If there's another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it.

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

             


            So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

            But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

            So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.

            Sent from my iPad

          • John McMullen
            Since I asked Steve about Fast Attack, remember that remainders also count. And I would probably allow multiple attacks at a lower level of
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 15 5:25 PM
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              Since I asked Steve about Fast Attack, remember that remainders also count.

              And I would probably allow multiple attacks at a lower level of Coordination/Prowess/Will: suppose you have Prowess 8 and Fast Attack 5. Normally that's two attacks, one at Prowess  and one at 5. But your character is fighting mooks, so Prowess 3 or 2 is enough, so I'd allow 3 attacks: one at Prowess 5, one at 3, one with Prowess 2.

              John

              Sent from my iPad

              On Jul 15, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "eric troup blindgeek@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you're right. If there's another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it.

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

               


              So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

              But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

              So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.

              Sent from my iPad

            • gmjerrymander
              I always took it as you got a second (or third) attack at your FA/ Prowess. So, if your Prowess is 4 and you have FA 7, you got one attack at 4, a second
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 16 4:13 AM
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                I always took it as you got a second (or third) attack at your FA/ Prowess.

                So, if your Prowess is 4 and you have FA 7, you got one attack at 4, a second attack at 4, and a third attack at 3.

                If your Prowess is 7 and FA 4, you got one attack at 7 and one attack at 4.

                OR am I reading this wrong.
              • Chris Heard
                Your explanation is correct for Great Power and the Assembled Edition. The power changed from its expression in Classic ICONS, where the total number of
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 16 9:30 AM
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                  Your explanation is correct for Great Power and the Assembled Edition. The power changed from its expression in Classic ICONS, where the total number of attacks depends on your Fast Attack level, and Fast Attack has nothing to do with the "to hit" roll.

                  On Jul 16, 2014, at 4:13 AM, splunge42@... [icons-rpg] <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                  I always took it as you got a second (or third) attack at your FA/ Prowess.

                  So, if your Prowess is 4 and you have FA 7, you got one attack at 4, a second attack at 4, and a third attack at 3.

                  If your Prowess is 7 and FA 4, you got one attack at 7 and one attack at 4.

                  OR am I reading this wrong.


                  Chris Heard
                  Heroes Zone Blog (and Podcast, coming soon)
                  http://heroes.zone
                  ><> ב״ה


                • Cameron Mount
                  I think there was a potential for brokenness with a high prowess and a high fast attack combining for three attacks at +8, for example. By forcing you to
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 18 8:50 AM
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                    I think there was a potential for brokenness with a high prowess and a high fast attack combining for three attacks at +8, for example.

                    By forcing you to divide the attacks up based on the level, you can't really get three attacks at full power unless your prowess is lower.

                    Assume FA 8 and Prowess 5. In first edition, that's three attacks at +5. In the revised versions, it's two attacks at +5 and one at +3.

                    On Jul 18, 2014 11:19 AM, "John McMullen jhmcmullen@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                     

                    Since I asked Steve about Fast Attack, remember that remainders also count.

                    And I would probably allow multiple attacks at a lower level of Coordination/Prowess/Will: suppose you have Prowess 8 and Fast Attack 5. Normally that's two attacks, one at Prowess  and one at 5. But your character is fighting mooks, so Prowess 3 or 2 is enough, so I'd allow 3 attacks: one at Prowess 5, one at 3, one with Prowess 2.

                    John

                    Sent from my iPad

                    On Jul 15, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "eric troup blindgeek@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                    I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you're right. If there's another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it.

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                     


                    So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

                    But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

                    So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.

                    Sent from my iPad

                  • Soylent Green
                    I don t know what the reasoning was for the change, but I can have a guess. With point-buy you could invest heavily one a attack and then for a single point of
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 18 9:28 AM
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                      I don't know what the reasoning was for the change, but I can have a guess. With point-buy you could invest heavily one a attack and then for a single point of Fast Attack double it's effectiveness.

                      Also, form an aesthetic point of view it is a little inelegant that you spending  5 points in Fast Attack is no better than spending 1 point.

                      These sorts of issue tend to arise with point build. With random generation you don't have to worry about stuff like this.


                      From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 20:14:06 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Help me Grok Fast Attack please

                       

                      Something I was wondering about is, what was broken about the first version? I don't have a lot of experience with Fast Attack, so I never ran into anything.

                      John

                      Sent from my iPad

                      On Jul 15, 2014, at 7:30 PM, "eric troup blindgeek@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      I just reread the power description, and I have to say… I think you're right. If there's another way of interpreting that, I would love to hear it.

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Jul 15, 2014, at 3:35 PM, "MadisonRStone spookyvoodoo64@... [icons-rpg]" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                       

                      So based on my reading of the text your fast attack level needs to always be equal to or higher than your prowess for it to even make any sense purchasing? Am I residing something wrong here? I feel I must be. If my PC has Prowess 7 I have to have Fast Attack 7 or higher to get any use out of it. Having a 4 or 5 in FA would be pointless.

                      But if I have Prowess 4 and FA attack well that's two level 4 attacks I can make per turn. The power seems to favor PCs with lower Prowess.

                      So what am I missing, cause I feel I must be missing something.

                      Sent from my iPad

                    • Chris Heard
                      ... I can t speak for Steve, of course, but I can reflect on the implications of the change. In Classic ICONS, certain levels of Fast Attack were basically
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 18 2:05 PM
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                        On Jul 15, 2014, at 5:14 PM, John McMullen jhmcmullen@... [icons-rpg] <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        Something I was wondering about is, what was broken about the first version? I don't have a lot of experience with Fast Attack, so I never ran into anything.

                        I can't speak for Steve, of course, but I can reflect on the implications of the change.

                        In Classic ICONS, certain levels of Fast Attack were basically irrelevant. There was no point in having Fast Attack at any level other than 1, 6, or 8 (because Fast Attack 5 gave the same benefit as Fast Attack 1, and so on).

                        In Icons Assembled, every level of Fast Attack matters. Having Fast Attack 5 is now significantly different from having Fast Attack 1. I think this is a positive change.

                        Also, please note that the actual wording of the Fast Attack power is more flexible than the example on p. 97 of ICONS Assembled might imply. "Fast Attack allows you to attack more than once per action, dividing your Fast Attack level into additional attack tests, up to your level with that attack." In the example given, Speed Demon has Prowess 4, Coordination 6, and Fast Attack 8, and the two example applications have him maxing out his second attack, for three Prowess attacks at 4/4/4 or three Coordination attacks at 6/6/2. But by the actual rule, the extra attacks can go "up to your level with that attack." In other words, per RAW, the character's attack ability sets a maximum on the extra attack(s) granted by Fast Attack, but not a minimum. Speed Demon could also make four Prowess attacks at 4/3/3/2 or three Coordination attacks at 6/4/4, if you go by RAW and don't take the example as a rule.

                        Chris Heard
                        Heroes Zone Blog (and Podcast, coming soon)
                        http://heroes.zone
                        ><> ב״ה


                      • Steve Kenson
                        ... Chris Heard covered this quite well. In particular the original version of Fast Attack had a lot of dead space where levels weren t particularly
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 19 3:55 PM
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                          On Jul 19, 2014, at 4:02 AM, "John McMullen" jhmcmullen wrote:
                          Something I was wondering about is, what was broken about the first version?

                          Chris Heard covered this quite well. In particular the original version of Fast Attack had a lot of "dead space" where levels weren't particularly meaningful, and it was entirely detached from how effective an attacker was. Now every level is relevant and it is tied to the effective acting levels of the attacks.
                        • wee_ree_cat
                          hey all, I was wondering, did I miss something about multiple attacks for characters without Fast Attack ? I mean, is there a legit way for a hero without a
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 20 8:59 PM
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                            hey all,

                            I was wondering, did I miss something about multiple attacks for characters without Fast Attack ?

                            I mean, is there a legit way for a hero without a Fast Attack power to try hitting two baddies at once ?
                          • Soylent Green
                            In the classic rules,you can target multiple target with one attack but it comes at a hefty -4 penalty.I don t know off hand if that is still the case, I d
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 21 2:34 AM
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                              In the classic rules,you can target multiple target with one attack but it comes at a hefty -4 penalty.I don't know off hand if that is still the case, I'd have to look it up. 

                              Alternatively, depending on the circumstances you might be able to Stunt for Blast (area affect) or even for Fast-Attack itself.

                              Informally, we tend to allow for all sort of crazy things, especially on a massive success or it's just really, really cool. 


                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2014 20:59:45 -0700
                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Help me Grok Fast Attack please

                               
                              hey all,

                              I was wondering, did I miss something about multiple attacks for characters without Fast Attack ?

                              I mean, is there a legit way for a hero without a Fast Attack power to try hitting two baddies at once ?

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