Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Determined Effort

Expand Messages
  • Steve Kenson
    Happy New Year, all! Hoping 2014 will be another successful year for ICONS and Ad Infinitum Adventures. A quick, informal survey question: Do you handle
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2014
    • 0 Attachment
      Happy New Year, all! Hoping 2014 will be another successful year for ICONS and Ad Infinitum Adventures.

      A quick, informal survey question:

      Do you handle spending Determination for Determined Effort "by the book" or do you modify the rules in some fashion (and, if so, how)? In particular:

      1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?

      2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

      3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?

      Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts and hope everyone has a fun and super 2014!
      _____
      Steve Kenson
      stevekenson@...
      www.stevekenson.com





    • Soylent Green
      1. Yes, sort of.. in theory. It s not unheard of that in the heat of the moment people forget to invoke an Aspect. But I seen that happen in other ICONS and
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2014
      • 0 Attachment
        1. Yes, sort of.. in theory. It's not unheard of that in the heat of the moment people forget to invoke an Aspect. But I seen that happen in other ICONS and Fate games, even of the Bamf pod casts.

        2. Nope. We ditched the retry requirement. I can see how that might prevent one-shotting the boss villain but it just doesn't come natural. 

        3. Yes


        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        From: stevekenson@...
        Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 08:55:47 -0500
        Subject: [icons-rpg] Determined Effort

         
        Happy New Year, all! Hoping 2014 will be another successful year for ICONS and Ad Infinitum Adventures.

        A quick, informal survey question:

        Do you handle spending Determination for Determined Effort "by the book" or do you modify the rules in some fashion (and, if so, how)? In particular:

        1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?

        2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

        3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?

        Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts and hope everyone has a fun and super 2014!
        _____
        Steve Kenson
        stevekenson@...
        www.stevekenson.com






      • Jonathan Brock
        1) Yes, is one of the most fun aspects. 2) No, seems too artificial, cumbersome, and foreign to us, coming from other game systems. 3) No, let
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 1, 2014
        • 0 Attachment

          1)      Yes, is one of the most fun aspects.

          2)      No, seems too artificial, cumbersome, and foreign to us, coming from other game systems.

          3)      No, let them spend however many they want at +2 result per.

           

          From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Kenson
          Sent: Wednesday, January 1, 2014 7:56 AM
          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Determined Effort

           

           

          Happy New Year, all! Hoping 2014 will be another successful year for ICONS and Ad Infinitum Adventures.

           

          A quick, informal survey question:

           

          Do you handle spending Determination for Determined Effort "by the book" or do you modify the rules in some fashion (and, if so, how)? In particular:

           

          1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?

           

          2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

           

          3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?

           

          Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts and hope everyone has a fun and super 2014!

           

        • Jonathan Lang
          Bear in mind that I personally use Great Power with Fate Core (modified by some options suggested by the Fate System Toolkit) rather than actually using Icons
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 1, 2014
          • 0 Attachment
            Bear in mind that I personally use Great Power with Fate Core (modified by some options suggested by the Fate System Toolkit) rather than actually using Icons per se.  As such, my answers aren’t technically about how I handle spending Determination; but they’re close.  

            1. Yes, I require Aspects to be invoked in order to spend Fate Points — with the sole exception that I also allow a Fate Point to be spent on a Skill to give it one use of a Stunt that it would otherwise lack (barring only Stunts that provide a bonus to the dice roll).  This is effectively a generalization of Icon’s Focused Effort, since one of the things a Stunt is good for is to let you use a Skill for something that it couldn’t ordinarily do.  I also go with Fate Core’s restriction of no more than one Fate Point per Aspect invoked (and no more than one Fate Point on the Skill): Aspects are easy enough to come by that you can get as much of a bonus as you want with sufficient inventiveness — and the inventiveness needed to come up with enough Aspects to make up the difference between the result you got and the result you wanted is fun.  

            2. No, I place no restrictions on retries.  

            3. No, I don’t require Aspects to be invoked before the roll.  
          • Ron Frazier
            *1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?* Yes. *2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2014
            • 0 Attachment
              1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?
              Yes.
              2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?
              No. I don't use Determined effort. See below.
              3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?
              No. I don't used Determined effort anymore. I treat this mechanically like invoking aspects in Fate, where you get +2 (or a reroll!) for invoking one aspect, but you can invoke as many different aspects as you like on a single roll. 
              --
              Ron Frazier
              ronfraz63@...
              "One who watches the wind will not sow, and the one who looks at the clouds will not reap."
            • Soylent Green
              I ve done that too in some games. Some players seemed to really struggle with the whole Determined Effort concept and in the end a Fate style +2 per DP/invoke
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 2, 2014
              • 0 Attachment
                I've done that too in some games. Some players seemed to really struggle with the whole Determined Effort concept and in the end a Fate style +2 per DP/invoke was just simpler to explain. 

                In general Determined Effort was easier to grasp for players who had previous experience with TSR Marvel Supe Hero game as it maps the Karma system to a degree. 


                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: ronfraz63@...
                Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 07:47:18 -0500
                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Determined Effort

                 

                1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?
                Yes.
                2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?
                No. I don't use Determined effort. See below.
                3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?
                No. I don't used Determined effort anymore. I treat this mechanically like invoking aspects in Fate, where you get +2 (or a reroll!) for invoking one aspect, but you can invoke as many different aspects as you like on a single roll. 
                --
                Ron Frazier
                ronfraz63@...
                "One who watches the wind will not sow, and the one who looks at the clouds will not reap."

              • osiejator
                ... Usually, but I can waive that with players that are new to hobby or when the Quality used is painfully obvious. ... Yes. I tend to be emphatic with the
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 2, 2014
                • 0 Attachment

                  --In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, <stevekenson@...> wrote:


                  > Happy New Year, all! Hoping 2014 will be another successful year for ICONS and Ad Infinitum Adventures.

                  > A quick, informal survey question:

                  > Do you handle spending Determination for Determined Effort "by the book" or do you modify the rules in some fashion (and, if so, how)? In particular:

                  > 1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?

                  Usually, but I can waive that with players that are new to hobby or when the Quality used is painfully obvious.

                  > 2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

                  Yes. I tend to be emphatic with the players - *this is not "luck", this is not "good roleplaying", those are not Bennies. Not that they usually get it, but still :)

                  > 3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?

                  The former, yes. The latter - i sometimes forget.

                  Thanks, I look forward to your thoughts and hope everyone has a fun and super 2014!
                  _____
                  Steve Kenson
                  stevekenson@...
                  www.stevekenson.com


                • dregotim
                  1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination? Yes, I require tagging. 2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 9, 2014
                  • 0 Attachment



                    1) Do you require the tagging of a Quality in order to spend Determination?

                    Yes, I require tagging.

                    2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

                    I've tried both approaches. First I will not use the requirements. That usually makes people save determination until a big baddie appears and try to one-shot him unloading a full salvo. If you mix that with the Damage boosting determination rule, determination becomes the perfect alpha striking machine and, even without the damage boosting, you’ll try to go for a quick  stun/kill if you had a solid damage (6+)  and the enemy is not a high strength bruiser.

                     

                    Afterwards, I’ve used the requirements. That fixed the one-strike determination hoarding syndrome, but also made the game more swingy. Yes, most of determination spending was on those “big attack” moments, but some of them were used to help in minor rolls where you don’t need a big swing, just a point of determination or two to assure success/minimize a bad dice roll. 

                     

                    Also,  I found that some aspect were less “useful” when requirements were used. Due not being able to use determination to upgrade rolls most of the time, players preferred aspects that let them switch the base roll of a low stat to a higher one  and didn’t choose perfectly valid and good aspects because of their usage capabilities.

                     


                    3) Do you require the declaration of Determined effort (and the setting of the desired outcome) before the roll, and charge a minimum of 1 Determination, even if the test is successful on its own?

                    I required  the declaration of the determined effort and the minimum 1-point spending, but only because I had a character with precognition on the hero group. Most of my player group didn’t mind that (and the precog character have some really nice occasions to shine thanks to it).

                     

                    On the other hand, setting the desired outcome has not required. If you didn’t say the outcome, it was implied that you went for a 0 success outcome: Enough to get what you want with no extras.

                  • Icosahedrophilia
                    Dear friends, ... I don’t understand how the “one attempt only” rule leads to this outcome. The players’ desire to cold-cock the villain does not make
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 9, 2014
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear friends,

                      On Jan 9, 2014, at 2:22 AM, dregotim@... wrote:

                      2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

                      I've tried both approaches. First I will not use the requirements. That usually makes people save determination until a big baddie appears and try to one-shot him unloading a full salvo.

                      I don’t understand how the “one attempt only” rule leads to this outcome. The players’ desire to cold-cock the villain does not make it a “one attempt only” situation. The GM determines whether a situation is “one attempt only.” It’s for things like “there is one second to go on the timebomb so it’s now or never.”

                      Perhaps I am not clearly understanding the type of scenario you have in mind.

                      By the way, I didn’t respond to the original post, but my answers would all be “I play it as close to RAW as I can remember in the moment.”

                      Chris Heard
                      Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                      http://drchris.me/d20
                      ><> ב״ה



                    • David Rego
                      Sorry, English is not my main language. :( Main post asked about how determined effort is played and if the rulebook requirements are used or not. What I ve
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 9, 2014
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sorry, English is not my main language.  :(

                        Main post asked about how determined effort is played and if the rulebook requirements are used or not.

                        What I've tried to explain is that I've tried both methods of using determined efforts: with no restrictions (so not only after fail / one attempt only is needed) and with restrictions.

                        Playing without restrictions, the players tended to the first situation described (amassing points and spending them in a big attack).  The second case (avoiding some kinds of aspects, etc..) corresponds to a situation with restrictions.

                        Hope it helps to clarify things a bit. :(




                        On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:56 PM, Icosahedrophilia <d20@...> wrote:
                         

                        Dear friends,


                        On Jan 9, 2014, at 2:22 AM, dregotim@... wrote:

                        2) Do you observe the requirement that Determined effort is only for trying again or one-attempt-only tests?

                        I've tried both approaches. First I will not use the requirements. That usually makes people save determination until a big baddie appears and try to one-shot him unloading a full salvo.

                        I don’t understand how the “one attempt only” rule leads to this outcome. The players’ desire to cold-cock the villain does not make it a “one attempt only” situation. The GM determines whether a situation is “one attempt only.” It’s for things like “there is one second to go on the timebomb so it’s now or never.”

                        Perhaps I am not clearly understanding the type of scenario you have in mind.

                        By the way, I didn’t respond to the original post, but my answers would all be “I play it as close to RAW as I can remember in the moment.”

                        Chris Heard
                        Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                        http://drchris.me/d20
                        ><> ב״ה




                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.