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A new look at Determined Effort

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  • Soylent Green
    I ve been thinking a bit about how Determined Effort works and how awkward it can be to explain concisely. The following is a slight variant on the mechanic
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 1 6:50 AM
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      I've been thinking a bit about how Determined Effort works and how awkward it can be to explain concisely. The following is a slight variant on the mechanic that may or may not have been influenced by Fate Core (to be honest, I kind of lose track) and that I hope might just be a little more intuitive.

      Determined Effort allows a player to spend Determination Points to improve the 
      effort on a test. The player needs to invoke an Aspect before making the roll. After the roll he can decide how many Determination Points (minimum of 1) he wishes to channel through that invocation. Each DP spent adds +2 to the dice roll.

      Mechanically I think this is roughly the same, the difference is that the accent changes from gambling DP on a specific result to channelling one or more DP into the test.

      The variant does away with the "has to have tried and failed" requirement of Determined Effort. Does anyone actually enforce that?
    • Icosahedrophilia
      Dear Soylent Green et al., ... Allowing the player to roll for the test before deciding the outcome level strikes me as a *very* significant change to
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 1 8:55 AM
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        Dear Soylent Green et al.,

        On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
         
        Mechanically I think this is roughly the same, the difference is that the accent changes from gambling DP on a specific result to channelling one or more DP into the test.

        Allowing the player to roll for the test before deciding the outcome level strikes me as a *very* significant change to Determined Effort. Per RAW, the player commits to a specific outcome level. Per the variant, the player only commits to spend 1 Determination. I don’t really find the RAW and the variant to be “roughly the same” either mechanically or narratively, because the variant allows the player to “opt out” after the roll is known. I don’t really see that as “determined.”

        RAW: “I am determined to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to gamble my entire stash of Determination to make that happen!”

        Variant: “I would like to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to ante up 1 Determination for a chance to make that happen—but I’ll decide after the roll whether it’s worth any additional cost!”

        The variant does away with the "has to have tried and failed" requirement of Determined Effort. Does anyone actually enforce that?

        Yes, in our little group (mainly me and my two sons, plus cousins and such on family vacations) we do observe that requirement pretty strictly.

        And remember that the requirement has another clause: “OR has only one chance to succeed.”

        Chris Heard
        Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
        http://drchris.me/d20
        ><> ב״ה



      • Soylent Green
        Fair enough about the retry rule. We ve always ignored that one as it always felt over-fussy. I do see the difference you highlight, which is why I said
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 1 9:24 AM
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          Fair enough about the retry rule. We've always ignored that one as it always felt over-fussy. 

          I do see the difference you highlight, which is why I said 'roughly equivalent'. 

          With the actual rules, once you committed to a specific level of success you are on the hook for it no matter how badly you roll. If you are unlucky that could wipe you out.

          With the variant the player has more control on what he spends but the amount he has to spend remains unchanged. If he wants to save the falling damsel he still has to pony up the DP. 

          The equation changes from "willing to risk everything (just kind of hoping it won't come to that)" to "willing to give up everything". Not quite sure which is more heroic.

          But in any event, these are edge cases that only come into play when you either roll very well or very badly. Thanks to the bell curve probability spread in Icons most of the time this shouldn't be that significant.



          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: d20@...
          Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:55:21 -0700
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] A new look at Determined Effort

           
          Dear Soylent Green et al.,

          On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
           
          Mechanically I think this is roughly the same, the difference is that the accent changes from gambling DP on a specific result to channelling one or more DP into the test.

          Allowing the player to roll for the test before deciding the outcome level strikes me as a *very* significant change to Determined Effort. Per RAW, the player commits to a specific outcome level. Per the variant, the player only commits to spend 1 Determination. I don’t really find the RAW and the variant to be “roughly the same” either mechanically or narratively, because the variant allows the player to “opt out” after the roll is known. I don’t really see that as “determined.”

          RAW: “I am determined to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to gamble my entire stash of Determination to make that happen!”

          Variant: “I would like to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to ante up 1 Determination for a chance to make that happen—but I’ll decide after the roll whether it’s worth any additional cost!”

          The variant does away with the "has to have tried and failed" requirement of Determined Effort. Does anyone actually enforce that?

          Yes, in our little group (mainly me and my two sons, plus cousins and such on family vacations) we do observe that requirement pretty strictly.

          And remember that the requirement has another clause: “OR has only one chance to succeed.”

          Chris Heard
          Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
          http://drchris.me/d20
          ><> ב״ה




        • Cameron Mount
          Soylent Green, I was just looking through Villainomicon, and ran across the variant for Determined Effort which is almost exactly what you ve proposed. ...
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 1 3:26 PM
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            Soylent Green,

            I was just looking through Villainomicon, and ran across the variant for Determined Effort which is almost exactly what you've proposed.


            On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             

            Fair enough about the retry rule. We've always ignored that one as it always felt over-fussy. 

            I do see the difference you highlight, which is why I said 'roughly equivalent'. 

            With the actual rules, once you committed to a specific level of success you are on the hook for it no matter how badly you roll. If you are unlucky that could wipe you out.

            With the variant the player has more control on what he spends but the amount he has to spend remains unchanged. If he wants to save the falling damsel he still has to pony up the DP. 

            The equation changes from "willing to risk everything (just kind of hoping it won't come to that)" to "willing to give up everything". Not quite sure which is more heroic.

            But in any event, these are edge cases that only come into play when you either roll very well or very badly. Thanks to the bell curve probability spread in Icons most of the time this shouldn't be that significant.



            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: d20@...
            Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:55:21 -0700
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] A new look at Determined Effort


             
            Dear Soylent Green et al.,

            On Jul 1, 2013, at 6:50 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             
            Mechanically I think this is roughly the same, the difference is that the accent changes from gambling DP on a specific result to channelling one or more DP into the test.

            Allowing the player to roll for the test before deciding the outcome level strikes me as a *very* significant change to Determined Effort. Per RAW, the player commits to a specific outcome level. Per the variant, the player only commits to spend 1 Determination. I don’t really find the RAW and the variant to be “roughly the same” either mechanically or narratively, because the variant allows the player to “opt out” after the roll is known. I don’t really see that as “determined.”

            RAW: “I am determined to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to gamble my entire stash of Determination to make that happen!”

            Variant: “I would like to catch the falling damsel/dude in distress without breaking his/her back in the process, and I’m willing to ante up 1 Determination for a chance to make that happen—but I’ll decide after the roll whether it’s worth any additional cost!”

            The variant does away with the "has to have tried and failed" requirement of Determined Effort. Does anyone actually enforce that?

            Yes, in our little group (mainly me and my two sons, plus cousins and such on family vacations) we do observe that requirement pretty strictly.

            And remember that the requirement has another clause: “OR has only one chance to succeed.”

            Chris Heard
            Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
            http://drchris.me/d20
            ><> ב״ה





          • Soylent Green
            Cameron, On reflection, I think you are right! They way I read the Determined Effort variant in the Villainomicon it seemed akin to the traditional Fate style
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 2 12:12 AM
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              Cameron, 

              On reflection, I think you are right!  

              They way I read the Determined Effort variant in the Villainomicon it seemed akin to the traditional Fate style rule for Fate Points, meaning that for each +2 you need to invoke or tag a different Aspect . But after rereading the whole section carefully and the section of Limited Tagging,  I think you are correct. 

              My apologies for the confusion.


              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              From: cameron.a.mount@...
              Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:26:08 -0400
              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] A new look at Determined Effort

               

              Soylent Green,

              I was just looking through Villainomicon, and ran across the variant for Determined Effort which is almost exactly what you've proposed.






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