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All-Star (Official ICONS character) updated?

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  • Fabricio
    Has anyone seen the updated version of All-Star, according to the new rules of Great Power? Fabrício Franco
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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      Has anyone seen the updated version of All-Star, according to the new rules of Great Power?

      Fabrício Franco
    • +1 Sword
      Looks like All-Star didn t make the cut for being one of the revised ICONS Iconics. ... Looks like All-Star didn t make the cut for being one of the revised
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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        Looks like All-Star didn't make the cut for being one of the revised ICONS Iconics.

        On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Fabricio <fabfranco@...> wrote:
         

        Has anyone seen the updated version of All-Star, according to the new rules of Great Power?

        Fabrício Franco


      • Fabrício César Franco
        Would that be because of possible high levels of Supersenses?
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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          Would that be because of possible high levels of Supersenses?


        • +1 Sword
          That seems unlikely, given that Sekhmet s Supersenses read like this: Super-Senses Device 5 (Mask of Sekhmet) Enhanced Hearing 2, Enhanced Vision, lnfravision.
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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            That seems unlikely, given that Sekhmet's Supersenses read like this:

            Super-Senses Device 5 (Mask of Sekhmet)
            Enhanced Hearing 2, Enhanced Vision, lnfravision. Tracking Sense

            On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
             

            Would that be because of possible high levels of Supersenses?


          • Fabrício César Franco
            Was Sekhmet updated according to Great Power new benchmarks?
            Message 5 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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              Was Sekhmet updated according to Great Power new benchmarks?



            • +1 Sword
              I don t think there was an old Sekhmet to update. She s one of the newly created Iconics. That said, she s the only Post-Great Power Iconic character with
              Message 6 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                I don't think there was an old Sekhmet to update. She's one of the newly created Iconics.
                That said, she's the only Post-Great Power Iconic character with Super-Senses so she's the best you're going to get.

                On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                 

                Was Sekhmet updated according to Great Power new benchmarks?


              • Fabrício César Franco
                But no Extended Sense was mentioned, and that s what I really wanted to see depicted. The distances involved are still befuddlilng.
                Message 7 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                  But no Extended Sense was mentioned, and that's what I really wanted to see depicted. The distances involved are still befuddlilng.


                • Icosahedrophilia
                  ... Yes. The version of Sekhmet that +1 sword cited was the GP-compatible version from Hero Pack 4. In fact, as +1 sword’s later reply indicates, that’s
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                    On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:13 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                    Was Sekhmet updated according to Great Power new benchmarks?

                    Yes. The version of Sekhmet that +1 sword cited was the GP-compatible version from Hero Pack 4. In fact, as +1 sword’s later reply indicates, that’s the only published version of Sekhmet (as far as I know).

                    ICONS breaks down if you ask for too much precision from the scale and power levels.* The benchmarks table in Great Power presents rough guidelines for storytelling/visualization purposes, not a strict mechanical equation and certainly not a straightjacket. This is most obvious to me on the Distance column, where Personal Range is off the bottom of the scale, levels 1–2 are clearly Close Range. Level 3 could be ruled as close or Extended Range, according to the size of the “city block.” Level 4 is tagged as Extended Range. Level 5 is tagged as Visual Range, and level 6 as “a few miles.” But then, a six-foot-tall person can see about 3 miles out to sea at sea level, more as elevation increases, so 5 and 6 overlap. Levels 7 and up are “beyond.”

                    * In fact, any stratified scale does this. I am a college professor, and I’m required to report letter grades for students at the end of the semester. So that students can always track their progress, and to keep things as objective as possible, I use a numerical system. But because there are breakpoints, a student with 90.49% gets a B+ while a student with 90.51% gets an A–. As a professor I can override this, of course, and as GM I can override the breakpoints on the benchmarks scale. The same thing happens in any RPG system. In D&D you might have a character who, by strict rules, can carry 1,000 gp but not 1,001 gp. Even more than in most systems, ICONS depends on the GM’s good judgment to realize that if a Strength 4 character can’t lift a Suzuki TU250 (325 lbs.), s/he also can’t lift the fat lady at the circus. Or if s/he can do one, s/he can do the other. 

                    Chris Heard
                    Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                    http://drchris.me/d20
                    ><> ב״ה



                  • +1 Sword
                    Try looking at it like this: Situation: There is some stinky trash on the sidewalk out to be picked up by the garbage men. As a clue you might notice that
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                      Try looking at it like this:
                      Situation: There is some stinky trash on the sidewalk out to be picked up by the garbage men. As a clue you might notice that there is a dead body in there.

                      The GM has determined that the dead body smells but isn't overwhelming yet. That means that I (normal player me) with no super-senses can smell it if I'm standing next to it. 'A couple of yards away.' by the bench mark table. Another few hours in the hot sun and I might be able to smell it from across the street but it is still early so no.

                      My Character 'Bloodhound' on the other hand has Super-Senses 6 (Extended Sense[Smell] 2, Enhanced Sense[Smell] 3, Tracking Sense). 

                      Bloodhound with his Extended Sense of smell can pick up the smell of the dead body from a City Block(2 steps) away. In a couple of hours when normal people would be smelling it from across the street then Bloodhound is actually picking it up in his headquarters halfway across town (Extended range is a judgement call). Inside the walls of his headquarters, the GM might call for a test to see if he notices it. Fortunately Bloodhound is rolling an 8 on his smell checks because his Enhanced Sense 3 adds to his Awareness 5.

                      He'll be rolling that when he starts attempting to track the killer down with his tracking sense as well.




                      On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                       

                      But no Extended Sense was mentioned, and that's what I really wanted to see depicted. The distances involved are still befuddlilng.

                    • Icosahedrophilia
                      ... I submit that the following points should help you with your “befuddlement.” (Is it really that you’re confused, or that you understand but object?
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                        On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:38 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                         
                        But no Extended Sense was mentioned, and that's what I really wanted to see depicted. The distances involved are still befuddlilng.__

                        I submit that the following points should help you with your “befuddlement.” (Is it really that you’re confused, or that you understand but object? Those are different things.)

                        1. The power level of an Extended Sense is differential and by default operates with respect to the PCEVB scale, not with respect to the Great Power Benchmarks table.

                        2. If you want more granularity, you use the GP Benchmarks table instead, but it still works the same way. If you take this approach, a character with Extended Hearing 3 can hear something that is really 15 miles away as if it were a couple of city blocks way (extended range).

                        3. In either case, the GM still adjudicates the action. S/he might simply declare a success or failure, or might call for a test. For example, a character with Extended Hearing 3 is trying to listen in on a whispered conversation 15 miles way.

                        3a. Using the PCEVB scale, the character can hear things at beyond range as if the sound were at close range. Close range is defined in ICONS as “Close enough to hit someone with a melee weapon or shoot them at point-blank range, or move up to them and do so in a single panel. You can communicate by speaking normally.” By default, close range is too far away to hear whispering, so the PC can’t hear the whispered conversation, although the GM might allow the PC an Awareness test, especially if the player can tag an aspect and spend a point of Determination for this. 

                        3b. Using the Benchmarks table, the character can hear things “tens of miles away” as if they were at extended range. Communicating across extended range (without mechanical assistance) normally requires shouting (ICONS, p. 55). So, again, the PC can’t hear the conversation, but the GM might make success possible with a test.

                        Obviously, these two methods don’t quite yield the same results, but the procedure is the same. I like to keep things simple, so I’d probably just use the PCEVB scale, but I might impose penalties based on how far “beyond” range the stimulus is, and the benchmarks table could be a good guide for this.


                        Chris Heard
                        Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                        http://drchris.me/d20
                        ><> ב״ה



                      • Fabrício César Franco
                        Chris, Adding insult to injury (sort of): what s PCEVB? Befuddled Fabrício Chris, Adding insult to injury (sort of): what s PCEVB? Befuddled Fabrício
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                          Chris,

                          Adding insult to injury (sort of): what's PCEVB?

                          Befuddled Fabrício

                        • Icosahedrophilia
                          ... The ICONS range spectrum: Personal / Close / Extended / Visual / Beyond Chris Heard Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast http://drchris.me/d20 ... On Jun 28,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                            On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                            Adding insult to injury (sort of): what's PCEVB?

                            The ICONS range spectrum:  Personal / Close / Extended / Visual / Beyond

                            Chris Heard
                            Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                            http://drchris.me/d20
                            ><> ב״ה



                          • Fabrício César Franco
                            Chris, Then it s settled. No Great Power benchmarks to Extended Senses. Thanks! The power costs are going to get much lower now. You helped a lot! Fabrício
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                              Chris,

                              Then it's settled. No Great Power benchmarks to Extended Senses. Thanks! The power costs are going to get much lower now. You helped a lot!

                              Fabrício

                            • Icosahedrophilia
                              I also suggest remembering “Rule Zero” (GM fiat). We have human GMs instead of computers to help adjudicate corner cases and fuzzy situations. (And because
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                                I also suggest remembering “Rule Zero” (GM fiat). We have human GMs instead of computers to help adjudicate corner cases and fuzzy situations. (And because they’re our friends and we like them and so on.)

                                Also, if you haven’t already done so, maybe read through some of Steve Kenson’s blog series about translating the Justice League animated series into gaming terms. One of the lessons is: “some things just are.” I don’t care how high your power level in Extended Smell is. You can’t smell a dead body in Beijing if you’re in Topeka. Period. (Barring some kind of technological innovation like Smell-o-Vision.)

                                On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:30 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                                Then it's settled. No Great Power benchmarks to Extended Senses. Thanks! The power costs are going to get much lower now. You helped a lot!

                                Chris Heard
                                Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                                http://drchris.me/d20
                                ><> ב״ה



                              • soulslayer
                                Bear in mind that the rules suggest that you can use the Great Power benchmarks if you d prefer, because as Chris mentioned it grants you more granularity. Of
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                                  Bear in mind that the rules suggest that you can use the Great Power benchmarks if you'd prefer, because as Chris mentioned it grants you more granularity. Of course as I think we all would agree, the points would increase but that's a trade-off.

                                  For me, I'm perfectly happy with using the PCEVB scale for Extended senses, but nothing says you can't use a different scale.

                                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Chris,
                                  >
                                  > Then it's settled. No Great Power benchmarks to Extended Senses. Thanks!
                                  > The power costs are going to get much lower now. You helped a lot!
                                  >
                                  > Fabrício
                                  >
                                  > <http://www.ludo-sapiens.blogspot.com>
                                  >
                                • Theron Bretz
                                  I recently got to play V&V with Jeff Dee. One of his pre-gens was The Schnozz, a man with Precognitive Smell. :-) Sent from my iPhone ... I recently got to
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                                    I recently got to play V&V with Jeff Dee. One of his pre-gens was The Schnozz, a man with Precognitive Smell. :-)

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:35 PM, Icosahedrophilia <d20@...> wrote:

                                    I also suggest remembering “Rule Zero” (GM fiat). We have human GMs instead of computers to help adjudicate corner cases and fuzzy situations. (And because they’re our friends and we like them and so on.)

                                    Also, if you haven’t already done so, maybe read through some of Steve Kenson’s blog series about translating the Justice League animated series into gaming terms. One of the lessons is: “some things just are.” I don’t care how high your power level in Extended Smell is. You can’t smell a dead body in Beijing if you’re in Topeka. Period. (Barring some kind of technological innovation like Smell-o-Vision.)

                                    On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:30 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                                    Then it's settled. No Great Power benchmarks to Extended Senses. Thanks! The power costs are going to get much lower now. You helped a lot!

                                    Chris Heard
                                    Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                                    http://drchris.me/d20
                                    ><> ב״ה



                                  • Fabrício César Franco
                                    Again, let me say it: this list is awesome! You guys rock and thanks to you, not only I got my doubts solved but you brought a large smile to my lips.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 28, 2013
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                                      Again, let me say it: this list is awesome! You guys rock and thanks to you, not only I got my doubts solved but you brought a large smile to my lips. 

                                      Fabrício Franco
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