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RE: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

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  • Soylent Green
    Thanks for the input, and don t worry I appreciate you aren t looking for an argument. It is very hard to discuss the detail of a rule without, well, going
    Message 1 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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      Thanks for the input, and don't worry I appreciate you aren't looking for an argument. It is very hard to discuss the detail of a rule without, well, going into the detail and quoting sources. I would not have raised the issue if I were not interested in people responses and appreciate the thought you put into yours.

      For what it's worth, I think you are probably right about #3 but I reserve judgement on #1.

      But this bring us back to a point I made last week;  nobody but nobody runs ICONS correctly, the the purely technical sense of the word but that's okay because I don't think it was ever really meant to be that kind of game in the first place. 


      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
      From: d20@...
      Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 17:51:10 -0700
      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

       

      On May 15, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
      #1 My reading that when the player tags the NPC Aspect you need to pay a DP just as the same as if you are invoking one of your own Aspects. There is an optional rule in the Villainomicon regarding Fate style free tags under specific circumstances, but normally the principle is you inovke/tag, you pay a DP.

      The way I read it, tagging and spending Determination are not inherently linked, though they often run side-by-side.

      The “Tagging” section on p. 78 reads in part, “Tagging is simply a matter of you, the player, noting that the aspect is relevant to the current
      situation and bringing it to the Game Master’s attention.” Then we read a little later, “Tagging lets you spend Determination in certain ways …” This suggests to me that tagging and spending Determination are in principle distinct actions; tagging gives you permission to spend Determination in certain circumstances, but you could potentially tag without spending Determination.

      I think this approach is supported by the wording of the Mind Control and Sleep powers; Mind Control says “Those with greater Willpower are immune to your control unless you first tag one of their aspects (see Tagging and Compelling under Determination).” The mention of Determination is only telling you where to look up what “tagging” means; nothing here says you have to spend Determination along with this tagging.

      Powers like Probability Control also give you the possibility of spending Determination without tagging, never mind the “free tags” in Villainomicon.

      So all this leads me to believe that while tagging and spending Determination are usually linked, they’re not inherently or automatically linked.

      But also note that the tagging requirement on Mind Control and Sleep is gone in Great Power anyway …

      #2 The DP "spent by the Serpent Sphinx did go to the player. 

      Cool. That wasn’t clear to me from the original description. Thanks for clarifying.

      #3 The way a villain used Determined Effort is that the GM states that the player's test (where offensive or defensive) fails. The player then rolls his test and the GM pays to player a number of DP required to turn what ever success they might have rolled into a failed test at the usual rate of 1 DP for 2 ranks, with a guaranteed minimum of at least 1 DP even if the player fails on the test anyway.

      I don't think this is explicitly written anywhere in the rules but I don;t see how Probability Control, which a number of official villains have, could possibly work otherwise.

      Steve Kenson explained his approach to this some time ago here; the version below is copied from the compilation posted on the Truth & Justice Wiki:

      Q: How do I handle a villain (or non-player hero) with Probability Control when they don't have or use Determination?

      A: [Steve Kenson:] Similar to a hero, the villain has "bonus" Determination equal to the Probability Control power's level. The Good Luck version allows the villain to effectively increase an ability by +2 per point spent for one action or retcon "lucky breaks". The Bad Luck version allows the villain to increase difficulties for others by +2 per point spent or retcon "unlucky breaks" for them.

      In both cases, the GM gets a number of "free" uses equal to the villain's power level before having to award the players any Determination. Any uses of Probability Control past that point should award Determination like any other challenge or villainous use of Determination.

      Example: The Killer Gamemaster uses his Probability Control to cause a ladder to break under a hero, increasing the difficulty of the Coordination test by +2.This costs one of his "free" uses of Probability Control but does not award the affect hero a Determination
      point.

      Some GMs may wish to award Determination for villainous uses of Probability Control anyway, depending on the style of the game. Typically, most villains will exhaust their free uses fairly quickly, especially if they are facing a whole team of heroes, but some groups may find being deprived of the usual rewards of encountering challenges somewhat frustrating. Balance withholding and awarding Determination as best suits the flow of your game.

      Great Power suggests a different approach (p. 104):

      Since Game Master characters do not have or use Determination, treat uses of Probability Control by them as temporary challenges (Icons, p. 92), much like any other “bad luck” the GM chooses to impose on the heroes by way of the story. This makes Probability Control more of a player-focused power, since GM characters eff ectively have unlimited uses of challenges (so long as the GM awards the players Determination).

      If you wish, this power can give a GM character “free” challenges equal to the power level; instances where Probability Control challenges do not award the players any Determination, but this is not recommended, since it interferes with the intended free flow of Determination in game play. Game Masters may want to limit “free” uses to retcons, allowing probability controlling GM characters more freedom to control the environment without directly affecting the heroes.

      In either case, Steve has treated the “as written” version of Probability Control as the way heroes use it, and has treated GM character use of the power differently. I’ve used the FAQ version with my kids previously, and now that GP is out I’ll be using that method. As a GM, I would always opt for one of these methods instead of letting a GM character use Determined Effort, for this reason: What happens if the attacking hero wants to use Determined Effort against a villain with Probability Control who wants to use inverse Determined Effort as a function of PC/Bad Luck? Do you go into a Determination bidding war? The GM character will always win something like that. Do you go by who shouted it out first? It just creates too many headaches, so one of the methods outlined above makes things flow far smoother (and the second one is now “official” for groups using GP anyway).

      Not trying to get into a big argument here, just suggesting that there are resources already in place to avoid the problems that can arise. I am a “lazy” enough GM to take the path of least resistance.

      Chris Heard
      Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
      http://drchris.me/d20
      ><> ב״ה




    • stevekenson
      First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game! So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it
      Message 2 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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        First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

        So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

        If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

        Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

        The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

        You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

        Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

        Hope that helps!
        Steve
        _____
        Steve Kenson
        stevekenson@...
        www.stevekenson.com





      • Soylent Green
        Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It s the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in
        Message 3 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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          Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 

          At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".

          As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.

          Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.

          So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?


          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: stevekenson@...
          Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

           
          First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

          So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

          If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

          Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

          The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

          You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

          Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

          Hope that helps!
          Steve
          _____
          Steve Kenson
          stevekenson@...
          www.stevekenson.com






        • John McMullen
          Because Hero Pack 1 didn t have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge? Cause, you know,
          Message 4 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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            Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?

            'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)

            If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
             
            John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
            jhmcmullen@...


            From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
            To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
            Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina




            Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 

            At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".

            As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.

            Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.

            So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?


            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: stevekenson@...
            Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

             
            First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

            So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

            If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

            Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

            The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

            You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

            Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

            Hope that helps!
            Steve
            _____
            Steve Kenson
            stevekenson@...
            www.stevekenson.com










          • John McMullen
            At the risk of derailing, I ll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food
            Message 5 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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              At the risk of derailing, I'll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food fortune, and him just a bit of a sociopath: at one point, to try and make up to her, he sent her a heart. A human heart. But don't worry, it was his. He'd taken it from his own chest.) "Dying is easy; I've done it a lot. Comedy--that's hard."

              Animation as a useful power really needs you to be somewhere there's lots of stuff to animate: a topiary, a park with lots of statuary, a mall, a museum...like that. 
               
              John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
              jhmcmullen@...


              From: stevekenson <stevekenson@...>
              To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:33 AM
              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina



              First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

              So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

              If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

              Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

              The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

              You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

              Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

              Hope that helps!
              Steve
              _____
              Steve Kenson
              stevekenson@...
              www.stevekenson.com









            • dirkgentry2000
              Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn t it? re: Spider-Fridge. I ll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative
              Message 6 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                >
                > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                >
                > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                >
                > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                >  
                > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                > jhmcmullen@...
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                >
                > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                >
                > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                >
                > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                >
                > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                > From: stevekenson@...
                > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                >
                >  
                > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                >
                >
                > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                >
                > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                >
                > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                >
                > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                >
                > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                >
                > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                >
                > Hope that helps!
                > Steve
                > _____
                > Steve Kenson
                > stevekenson@...
                > www.stevekenson.com
                >
              • Soylent Green
                Derail away, derail away :-) Your right of course, animation has its greatest potential where there is a lot of interesting objects to animate. But at pinch
                Message 7 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                  Derail away, derail away :-)

                  Your right of course, animation has its greatest potential where there is a lot of interesting objects to animate. But at pinch even a modest lamp post can display remarkable personality once animated.


                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                  From: jhmcmullen@...
                  Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:29:38 -0700
                  Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                   

                  At the risk of derailing, I'll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food fortune, and him just a bit of a sociopath: at one point, to try and make up to her, he sent her a heart. A human heart. But don't worry, it was his. He'd taken it from his own chest.) "Dying is easy; I've done it a lot. Comedy--that's hard."

                  Animation as a useful power really needs you to be somewhere there's lots of stuff to animate: a topiary, a park with lots of statuary, a mall, a museum...like that. 
                   
                  John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                  jhmcmullen@...


                  From: stevekenson <stevekenson@...>
                  To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:33 AM
                  Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina



                  First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                  So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                  If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                  Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                  The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                  You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                  Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                  Hope that helps!
                  Steve
                  _____
                  Steve Kenson
                  stevekenson@...
                  www.stevekenson.com










                • Soylent Green
                  Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that. Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                    Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.

                    Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 

                    I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: dirkgentry2000@...
                    Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                     
                    Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                    re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                    I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                    IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                    With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                    I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                    >
                    > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                    >
                    > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                    >  
                    > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                    > jhmcmullen@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                    > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                    >
                    > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                    >
                    > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                    >
                    > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                    >
                    > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: stevekenson@...
                    > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                    > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                    >
                    >  
                    > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                    >
                    >
                    > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                    >
                    > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                    >
                    > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                    >
                    > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                    >
                    > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                    >
                    > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                    >
                    > Hope that helps!
                    > Steve
                    > _____
                    > Steve Kenson
                    > stevekenson@...
                    > www.stevekenson.com
                    >


                  • John McMullen
                    For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)

                      It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 

                      But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                       
                      John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                      jhmcmullen@...


                      From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                      To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                      Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge



                      Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.

                      Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 

                      I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 


                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      From: dirkgentry2000@...
                      Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                       
                      Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                      re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                      I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                      IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                      With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                      I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                      >
                      > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                      >
                      > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                      >  
                      > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                      > jhmcmullen@...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                      > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                      >
                      > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                      >
                      > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                      >
                      > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                      >
                      > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: stevekenson@...
                      > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                      > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                      >
                      >  
                      > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                      >
                      >
                      > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                      >
                      > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                      >
                      > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                      >
                      > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                      >
                      > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                      >
                      > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                      >
                      > Hope that helps!
                      > Steve
                      > _____
                      > Steve Kenson
                      > stevekenson@...
                      > www.stevekenson.com
                      >






                    • dirkgentry2000
                      IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                        >
                        > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                        >
                        > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                        >  
                        > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                        > jhmcmullen@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                        > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                        >
                        > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                        > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                        > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                        > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                        >
                        >  
                        > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                        >
                        > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                        >
                        > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                        >
                        > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                        >
                        > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                        >
                        > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                        >
                        > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                        > >
                        > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                        > >
                        > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                        > >  
                        > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                        > > jhmcmullen@
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                        > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                        > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                        > >
                        > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                        > >
                        > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                        > >
                        > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                        > >
                        > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        > > From: stevekenson@
                        > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                        > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                        > >
                        > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                        > >
                        > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                        > >
                        > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                        > >
                        > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                        > >
                        > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                        > >
                        > > Hope that helps!
                        > > Steve
                        > > _____
                        > > Steve Kenson
                        > > stevekenson@
                        > > www.stevekenson.com
                        > >
                        >
                      • Chris Tavares
                        There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like Epithet and Catchphrase . Those exact literal words. Hm, this character
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”

                           

                          I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.

                           

                          -Chris

                           

                           

                          From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                          Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                           

                           


                          IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                          >
                          > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                          >
                          > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                          >  
                          > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                          > jhmcmullen@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                          > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                          >
                          > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                          > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                          > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                          > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                          >
                          >  
                          > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                          >
                          > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                          >
                          > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                          >
                          > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                          >
                          > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                          >
                          > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                          >
                          > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                          > >
                          > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                          > >
                          > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                          > >  
                          > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                          > > jhmcmullen@
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                          > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                          > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                          > >
                          > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                          > >
                          > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                          > >
                          > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                          > >
                          > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > > From: stevekenson@
                          > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                          > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                          > >
                          > >  
                          > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                          > >
                          > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                          > >
                          > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                          > >
                          > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                          > >
                          > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                          > >
                          > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                          > >
                          > > Hope that helps!
                          > > Steve
                          > > _____
                          > > Steve Kenson
                          > > stevekenson@
                          > > www.stevekenson.com
                          > >
                          >

                        • Theron Bretz
                          My suspicion is that the issue crept in during layout. The generic Aspects were placeholder text that didn t get replaced. Sent from my iPhone ... My suspicion
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            My suspicion is that the issue crept in during layout. The generic Aspects were placeholder text that didn't get replaced. 

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On May 16, 2013, at 12:34 PM, "Chris Tavares" <cct@...> wrote:

                            There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”

                             

                            I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.

                             

                            -Chris

                             

                             

                            From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                            Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                             

                             


                            IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                            >
                            > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                            >
                            > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                            >  
                            > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                            > jhmcmullen@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                            > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                            > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                            >
                            > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                            > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                            > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                            > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                            >
                            >  
                            > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                            >
                            > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                            >
                            > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                            >
                            > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                            >
                            > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                            >
                            > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                            >
                            > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                            > >
                            > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                            > >
                            > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                            > >  
                            > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                            > > jhmcmullen@
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                            > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                            > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                            > >
                            > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                            > >
                            > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                            > >
                            > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                            > >
                            > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: stevekenson@
                            > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                            > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                            > >
                            > >  
                            > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                            > >
                            > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                            > >
                            > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                            > >
                            > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                            > >
                            > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                            > >
                            > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                            > >
                            > > Hope that helps!
                            > > Steve
                            > > _____
                            > > Steve Kenson
                            > > stevekenson@
                            > > www.stevekenson.com
                            > >
                            >

                          • John McMullen
                            Sure, learning experiences are fine. And I m happy with the product line now, even if that one is a bit disappointing. One can be disappointed in individual
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Sure, learning experiences are fine. And I'm happy with the product line now, even if that one is a bit disappointing.

                              One can be disappointed in individual products and still like the line. (I know that's heresy in some circles.) :)
                               
                              John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                              jhmcmullen@...


                              From: Chris Tavares <cct@...>
                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM
                              Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge



                              There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”
                               
                              I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.
                               
                              -Chris
                               
                              From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                              Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                               
                               

                              IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                              >
                              > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                              >
                              > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                              >  
                              > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                              > jhmcmullen@...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                              > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                              > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                              >
                              > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                              > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                              > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                              > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                              >
                              >  
                              > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                              >
                              > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                              >
                              > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                              >
                              > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                              >
                              > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                              >
                              > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                              >
                              > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                              > >
                              > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                              > >
                              > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                              > >  
                              > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                              > > jhmcmullen@
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                              > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                              > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                              > >
                              > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                              > >
                              > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                              > >
                              > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                              > >
                              > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              > > From: stevekenson@
                              > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                              > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                              > >
                              > >  
                              > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                              > >
                              > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                              > >
                              > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                              > >
                              > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                              > >
                              > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                              > >
                              > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                              > >
                              > > Hope that helps!
                              > > Steve
                              > > _____
                              > > Steve Kenson
                              > > stevekenson@
                              > > www.stevekenson.com
                              > >
                              >




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