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Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

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  • Soylent Green
    As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan
    Message 1 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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      As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.

       

      So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.

       

      Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.

       

      To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).

       

      That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.

    • Cameron Mount
      Is that how it is supposed to work? I ve just been awarding the player a DP rather than spending one of my own. ... Is that how it is supposed to work? I ve
      Message 2 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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        Is that how it is supposed to work? I've just been awarding the player a DP rather than "spending" one of my own.


        On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
         

        As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.

         

        So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.

         

        Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.

         

        To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).

         

        That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.


      • Soylent Green
        That s what I mean. The GM awards the player a DP when he uses Determined Effort or Stunt or other DP activated effect on behalf of an NPC. In this instance
        Message 3 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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          That's what I mean. The GM awards the player a DP when he uses Determined Effort or Stunt or other DP activated effect on behalf of an NPC.  In this instance the player had also committed a DP to her action with the net effect that at the end of the panel the character's action had been thwarted by something very close to GM fiat with no net gain in DP for that player.

          As it were the player did not complain, it did cast a shadow over the game and it could have been a bit of anti-climax had I not done this, but I'm not sure 100% happy with this myself.
           


          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: cameron.a.mount@...
          Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:14:25 -0400
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

           

          Is that how it is supposed to work? I've just been awarding the player a DP rather than "spending" one of my own.


          On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
           

          As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.

           

          So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.

           

          Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.

           

          To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).

           

          That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.




        • Cameron Mount
          Okay. In hindsight, would it have made more sense to award her 2 DP in this case? Additionally, did she have an Aspect you could compel that could explain why
          Message 4 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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            Okay. In hindsight, would it have made more sense to award her 2 DP in this case?

            Additionally, did she have an Aspect you could compel that could explain why her attempt failed?

            Just spit-balling.


            On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             

            That's what I mean. The GM awards the player a DP when he uses Determined Effort or Stunt or other DP activated effect on behalf of an NPC.  In this instance the player had also committed a DP to her action with the net effect that at the end of the panel the character's action had been thwarted by something very close to GM fiat with no net gain in DP for that player.

            As it were the player did not complain, it did cast a shadow over the game and it could have been a bit of anti-climax had I not done this, but I'm not sure 100% happy with this myself.
             


            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: cameron.a.mount@...
            Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:14:25 -0400
            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

             

            Is that how it is supposed to work? I've just been awarding the player a DP rather than "spending" one of my own.


            On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
             

            As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.

             

            So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.

             

            Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.

             

            To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).

             

            That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.





          • Soylent Green
            The character invoked on of the Serpent Sphinx s Aspects because to use Sleep because her Willpower/Sleep power ranks we not higher than his Willpower. The
            Message 5 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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              The character invoked on of the Serpent Sphinx's Aspects because to use Sleep because her Willpower/Sleep power ranks we not higher than his Willpower.

              The Serpent Sphinx then used another of his Aspects to make a Determined Effort to resit the Sleep attack.

              I think that's by the book, but as result player's action fizzles as a result of direct GM intervention with no net gain of DP for the player.

              Awarding 2 DP might be the gracious thing to do. I don't think that's is suggested anywhere in the rules but it's a possibility.

              Alternatively maybe it's just bad form for the GM to respond to a players Aspect invocation with an Apsect invocation of his own, given that unlike the player the GM has no limit on how many DP he can "spend".

              Or maybe the GM should only have a limited number of DP he can use for all his character per session? 


              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              From: cameron.a.mount@...
              Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:31:59 -0400
              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

               

              Okay. In hindsight, would it have made more sense to award her 2 DP in this case?

              Additionally, did she have an Aspect you could compel that could explain why her attempt failed?

              Just spit-balling.


              On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
               

              That's what I mean. The GM awards the player a DP when he uses Determined Effort or Stunt or other DP activated effect on behalf of an NPC.  In this instance the player had also committed a DP to her action with the net effect that at the end of the panel the character's action had been thwarted by something very close to GM fiat with no net gain in DP for that player.

              As it were the player did not complain, it did cast a shadow over the game and it could have been a bit of anti-climax had I not done this, but I'm not sure 100% happy with this myself.
               


              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              From: cameron.a.mount@...
              Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:14:25 -0400
              Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

               

              Is that how it is supposed to work? I've just been awarding the player a DP rather than "spending" one of my own.


              On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
               

              As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.
               
              So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.
               
              Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.
               
              To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).
               
              That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.






            • Chris Tavares
              That seems a little off - I thought NPCs in general didn t have or get to spend Determination? Although I can certainly understand your desire to keep the bad
              Message 6 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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                That seems a little off – I thought NPCs in general didn’t have or get to spend Determination? Although I can certainly understand your desire to keep the bad guy from going to sleep in the first panel.

                 

                You might want to consider borrowing the GM Bennie rules from Savage Worlds. In that game, the GM gets one bennie (i.e. point of determination) per player to use as a pool for any NPC. In addition, wild card characters (the significant villians) have two personal bennies each.

                 

                -Chris

                 

                 

                From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cameron Mount
                Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:32 PM
                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                 

                 

                Okay. In hindsight, would it have made more sense to award her 2 DP in this case?

                 

                Additionally, did she have an Aspect you could compel that could explain why her attempt failed?

                 

                Just spit-balling.

                 

                On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                 

                That's what I mean. The GM awards the player a DP when he uses Determined Effort or Stunt or other DP activated effect on behalf of an NPC.  In this instance the player had also committed a DP to her action with the net effect that at the end of the panel the character's action had been thwarted by something very close to GM fiat with no net gain in DP for that player.

                 

                As it were the player did not complain, it did cast a shadow over the game and it could have been a bit of anti-climax had I not done this, but I'm not sure 100% happy with this myself.

                 


                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: cameron.a.mount@...
                Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:14:25 -0400
                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                 

                 

                Is that how it is supposed to work? I've just been awarding the player a DP rather than "spending" one of my own.

                 

                On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:

                 

                 

                As I might have mentioned, I’ve just recently kicked off a new ICONS campaign. It came a bit out of the blue so I didn’t really have much of game plan other than perhaps the desire to explore the ICONS-verse, at least in terms of the villains that have appeared in the Adamant/Ad Infinitum books and adventures.

                 

                So first off I ran The Skeletron Key albeit without Skeletron but with Inferno and Miss Fortune.

                 

                Yesterday I ran an adventure of my own featuring The Serpent Sphinx and guest starring Harlequin and Colombina in a Batman: The Brave and the Bold style and intro. Rather unexpectedly “The Kooky Couple of Crime” were a lot of fun to run, so much so I’ll have to bring them back for a rematch at some stage. By contrast my rendition of the Serpent Sphinx was little by the numbers but at least he gave the party a decent fight, largely because for once I remembered to use DPs for my villains.

                 

                To be honest I’m still not 100% comfortable with this. I had one character try to attack the Serpent Sphinx with the Sleep power, spending a DP to tag one of his opponents Aspects in order to bridge the Willpower gap. I spend one DP on the Serpent Sphinx behalf to oppose this. So okay, going to sleep on the first round of combat might have been an anti-climax but countering a players DP with a GMs DP seems a bit heavy handed especially as the player just ended with not the GM has an unlimited number of them. . The player didn’t complain or anything but in then her action was nullified direct GM intervention and she ended with the same number of DP she started with (1 spent, 1 gained).

                 

                That aside, it was a good adventure. Time to start working on the next one. I wonder which villain it will feature.

                 

                 

                 

                 

              • Icosahedrophilia
                ... No, I don’t think this is quite by the book. First, the tagging needed for the Sleep power doesn’t cost Determination, per RAW. It just requires
                Message 7 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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                  On May 15, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                   

                  The character invoked on of the Serpent Sphinx's Aspects because to use Sleep because her Willpower/Sleep power ranks we not higher than his Willpower.

                  The Serpent Sphinx then used another of his Aspects to make a Determined Effort to resit the Sleep attack.

                  I think that's by the book, but as result player's action fizzles as a result of direct GM intervention with no net gain of DP for the player.

                  No, I don’t think this is quite by the book.

                  First, the tagging needed for the Sleep power doesn’t cost Determination, per RAW. It just requires tagging. So the PC is not out any Determination when tagging for that purpose.

                  Second, any Determination “spent” by the Sphinx should go to the player.

                  Third, the Sphinx couldn’t take Determined Effort to resist the Sleep attack, per RAW. This is because the Sphinx doesn’t make a test to resist the sleep. The hero makes a test to impose the sleep.

                  Am I wrong or missing something here?

                  Chris

                  Chris Heard
                  Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                  http://drchris.me/d20
                  ><> ב״ה



                • Soylent Green
                  As always, when it comes to rule interpretation, your guess is as good as mine :-) Still, responding to your points in order: #1 My reading that when the
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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                    As always, when it comes to rule interpretation, your guess is as good as mine :-)

                    Still, responding to your points in order:

                    #1 My reading that when the player tags the NPC Aspect you need to pay a DP just as the same as if you are invoking one of your own Aspects. There is an optional rule in the Villainomicon regarding Fate style free tags under specific circumstances, but normally the principle is you inovke/tag, you pay a DP.

                    #2 The DP "spent by the Serpent Sphinx did go to the player. 

                    #3 The way a villain used Determined Effort is that the GM states that the player's test (where offensive or defensive) fails. The player then rolls his test and the GM pays to player a number of DP required to turn what ever success they might have rolled into a failed test at the usual rate of 1 DP for 2 ranks, with a guaranteed minimum of at least 1 DP even if the player fails on the test anyway.

                    I don't think this is explicitly written anywhere in the rules but I don;t see how Probability Control, which a number of official villains have, could possibly work otherwise.


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: d20@...
                    Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:19:45 -0700
                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                     

                    On May 15, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                     

                    The character invoked on of the Serpent Sphinx's Aspects because to use Sleep because her Willpower/Sleep power ranks we not higher than his Willpower.

                    The Serpent Sphinx then used another of his Aspects to make a Determined Effort to resit the Sleep attack.

                    I think that's by the book, but as result player's action fizzles as a result of direct GM intervention with no net gain of DP for the player.

                    No, I don’t think this is quite by the book.

                    First, the tagging needed for the Sleep power doesn’t cost Determination, per RAW. It just requires tagging. So the PC is not out any Determination when tagging for that purpose.

                    Second, any Determination “spent” by the Sphinx should go to the player.

                    Third, the Sphinx couldn’t take Determined Effort to resist the Sleep attack, per RAW. This is because the Sphinx doesn’t make a test to resist the sleep. The hero makes a test to impose the sleep.

                    Am I wrong or missing something here?

                    Chris

                    Chris Heard
                    Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                    http://drchris.me/d20
                    ><> ב״ה




                  • Theron Bretz
                    #1  That s how I play it. #2  As it should, except I don t even think of it as DP spent by the villain.  I just say, He struggles for a moment, then shakes
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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                      #1  That's how I play it.
                      #2  As it should, except I don't even think of it as DP spent by the villain.  I just say, "He struggles for a moment, then shakes it off" or whatever and toss a poker chip to the player.
                      #3  That's more thought than I put into it in my game sessions.  See #2 above.  Your method is more stringently fair, my way makes my brain hurt less. :-)  And yeah, that's how I handle Prob Controllers.  Mostly, I just say why whatever the PC just did actually didn't in some sort of interesting way and drop DP on them.  A lot of it comes down to gauging the mood of the table.  If my counter seems to flow against expectations, then I'll either scale it back, or let the die roll stand.  To go back to your game session, I wouldn't let Sleep take the big bad out on the first page.  Of course, I've gotten to where I make sure I keep a pretty good lid on "one shot" powers to try and head such things off a bit in advance.



                      From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                      To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 6:41 PM
                      Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina



                      As always, when it comes to rule interpretation, your guess is as good as mine :-)

                      Still, responding to your points in order:

                      #1 My reading that when the player tags the NPC Aspect you need to pay a DP just as the same as if you are invoking one of your own Aspects. There is an optional rule in the Villainomicon regarding Fate style free tags under specific circumstances, but normally the principle is you inovke/tag, you pay a DP.

                      #2 The DP "spent by the Serpent Sphinx did go to the player. 

                      #3 The way a villain used Determined Effort is that the GM states that the player's test (where offensive or defensive) fails. The player then rolls his test and the GM pays to player a number of DP required to turn what ever success they might have rolled into a failed test at the usual rate of 1 DP for 2 ranks, with a guaranteed minimum of at least 1 DP even if the player fails on the test anyway.

                      I don't think this is explicitly written anywhere in the rules but I don;t see how Probability Control, which a number of official villains have, could possibly work otherwise.


                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      From: d20@...
                      Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:19:45 -0700
                      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                       

                      On May 15, 2013, at 3:47 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                       

                      The character invoked on of the Serpent Sphinx's Aspects because to use Sleep because her Willpower/Sleep power ranks we not higher than his Willpower.

                      The Serpent Sphinx then used another of his Aspects to make a Determined Effort to resit the Sleep attack.

                      I think that's by the book, but as result player's action fizzles as a result of direct GM intervention with no net gain of DP for the player.

                      No, I don’t think this is quite by the book.

                      First, the tagging needed for the Sleep power doesn’t cost Determination, per RAW. It just requires tagging. So the PC is not out any Determination when tagging for that purpose.

                      Second, any Determination “spent” by the Sphinx should go to the player.

                      Third, the Sphinx couldn’t take Determined Effort to resist the Sleep attack, per RAW. This is because the Sphinx doesn’t make a test to resist the sleep. The hero makes a test to impose the sleep.

                      Am I wrong or missing something here?

                      Chris

                      Chris Heard
                      Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                      http://drchris.me/d20
                      ><> ב״ה








                    • Icosahedrophilia
                      ... The way I read it, tagging and spending Determination are not inherently linked, though they often run side-by-side. The “Tagging” section on p. 78
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 15, 2013
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                        On May 15, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                        #1 My reading that when the player tags the NPC Aspect you need to pay a DP just as the same as if you are invoking one of your own Aspects. There is an optional rule in the Villainomicon regarding Fate style free tags under specific circumstances, but normally the principle is you inovke/tag, you pay a DP.

                        The way I read it, tagging and spending Determination are not inherently linked, though they often run side-by-side.

                        The “Tagging” section on p. 78 reads in part, “Tagging is simply a matter of you, the player, noting that the aspect is relevant to the current
                        situation and bringing it to the Game Master’s attention.” Then we read a little later, “Tagging lets you spend Determination in certain ways …” This suggests to me that tagging and spending Determination are in principle distinct actions; tagging gives you permission to spend Determination in certain circumstances, but you could potentially tag without spending Determination.

                        I think this approach is supported by the wording of the Mind Control and Sleep powers; Mind Control says “Those with greater Willpower are immune to your control unless you first tag one of their aspects (see Tagging and Compelling under Determination).” The mention of Determination is only telling you where to look up what “tagging” means; nothing here says you have to spend Determination along with this tagging.

                        Powers like Probability Control also give you the possibility of spending Determination without tagging, never mind the “free tags” in Villainomicon.

                        So all this leads me to believe that while tagging and spending Determination are usually linked, they’re not inherently or automatically linked.

                        But also note that the tagging requirement on Mind Control and Sleep is gone in Great Power anyway …

                        #2 The DP "spent by the Serpent Sphinx did go to the player. 

                        Cool. That wasn’t clear to me from the original description. Thanks for clarifying.

                        #3 The way a villain used Determined Effort is that the GM states that the player's test (where offensive or defensive) fails. The player then rolls his test and the GM pays to player a number of DP required to turn what ever success they might have rolled into a failed test at the usual rate of 1 DP for 2 ranks, with a guaranteed minimum of at least 1 DP even if the player fails on the test anyway.

                        I don't think this is explicitly written anywhere in the rules but I don;t see how Probability Control, which a number of official villains have, could possibly work otherwise.

                        Steve Kenson explained his approach to this some time ago here; the version below is copied from the compilation posted on the Truth & Justice Wiki:

                        Q: How do I handle a villain (or non-player hero) with Probability Control when they don't have or use Determination?

                        A: [Steve Kenson:] Similar to a hero, the villain has "bonus" Determination equal to the Probability Control power's level. The Good Luck version allows the villain to effectively increase an ability by +2 per point spent for one action or retcon "lucky breaks". The Bad Luck version allows the villain to increase difficulties for others by +2 per point spent or retcon "unlucky breaks" for them.

                        In both cases, the GM gets a number of "free" uses equal to the villain's power level before having to award the players any Determination. Any uses of Probability Control past that point should award Determination like any other challenge or villainous use of Determination.

                        Example: The Killer Gamemaster uses his Probability Control to cause a ladder to break under a hero, increasing the difficulty of the Coordination test by +2.This costs one of his "free" uses of Probability Control but does not award the affect hero a Determination
                        point.

                        Some GMs may wish to award Determination for villainous uses of Probability Control anyway, depending on the style of the game. Typically, most villains will exhaust their free uses fairly quickly, especially if they are facing a whole team of heroes, but some groups may find being deprived of the usual rewards of encountering challenges somewhat frustrating. Balance withholding and awarding Determination as best suits the flow of your game.

                        Great Power suggests a different approach (p. 104):

                        Since Game Master characters do not have or use Determination, treat uses of Probability Control by them as temporary challenges (Icons, p. 92), much like any other “bad luck” the GM chooses to impose on the heroes by way of the story. This makes Probability Control more of a player-focused power, since GM characters eff ectively have unlimited uses of challenges (so long as the GM awards the players Determination).

                        If you wish, this power can give a GM character “free” challenges equal to the power level; instances where Probability Control challenges do not award the players any Determination, but this is not recommended, since it interferes with the intended free flow of Determination in game play. Game Masters may want to limit “free” uses to retcons, allowing probability controlling GM characters more freedom to control the environment without directly affecting the heroes.

                        In either case, Steve has treated the “as written” version of Probability Control as the way heroes use it, and has treated GM character use of the power differently. I’ve used the FAQ version with my kids previously, and now that GP is out I’ll be using that method. As a GM, I would always opt for one of these methods instead of letting a GM character use Determined Effort, for this reason: What happens if the attacking hero wants to use Determined Effort against a villain with Probability Control who wants to use inverse Determined Effort as a function of PC/Bad Luck? Do you go into a Determination bidding war? The GM character will always win something like that. Do you go by who shouted it out first? It just creates too many headaches, so one of the methods outlined above makes things flow far smoother (and the second one is now “official” for groups using GP anyway).

                        Not trying to get into a big argument here, just suggesting that there are resources already in place to avoid the problems that can arise. I am a “lazy” enough GM to take the path of least resistance.

                        Chris Heard
                        Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                        http://drchris.me/d20
                        ><> ב״ה



                      • Soylent Green
                        Thanks for the input, and don t worry I appreciate you aren t looking for an argument. It is very hard to discuss the detail of a rule without, well, going
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks for the input, and don't worry I appreciate you aren't looking for an argument. It is very hard to discuss the detail of a rule without, well, going into the detail and quoting sources. I would not have raised the issue if I were not interested in people responses and appreciate the thought you put into yours.

                          For what it's worth, I think you are probably right about #3 but I reserve judgement on #1.

                          But this bring us back to a point I made last week;  nobody but nobody runs ICONS correctly, the the purely technical sense of the word but that's okay because I don't think it was ever really meant to be that kind of game in the first place. 


                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: d20@...
                          Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 17:51:10 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                           

                          On May 15, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                          #1 My reading that when the player tags the NPC Aspect you need to pay a DP just as the same as if you are invoking one of your own Aspects. There is an optional rule in the Villainomicon regarding Fate style free tags under specific circumstances, but normally the principle is you inovke/tag, you pay a DP.

                          The way I read it, tagging and spending Determination are not inherently linked, though they often run side-by-side.

                          The “Tagging” section on p. 78 reads in part, “Tagging is simply a matter of you, the player, noting that the aspect is relevant to the current
                          situation and bringing it to the Game Master’s attention.” Then we read a little later, “Tagging lets you spend Determination in certain ways …” This suggests to me that tagging and spending Determination are in principle distinct actions; tagging gives you permission to spend Determination in certain circumstances, but you could potentially tag without spending Determination.

                          I think this approach is supported by the wording of the Mind Control and Sleep powers; Mind Control says “Those with greater Willpower are immune to your control unless you first tag one of their aspects (see Tagging and Compelling under Determination).” The mention of Determination is only telling you where to look up what “tagging” means; nothing here says you have to spend Determination along with this tagging.

                          Powers like Probability Control also give you the possibility of spending Determination without tagging, never mind the “free tags” in Villainomicon.

                          So all this leads me to believe that while tagging and spending Determination are usually linked, they’re not inherently or automatically linked.

                          But also note that the tagging requirement on Mind Control and Sleep is gone in Great Power anyway …

                          #2 The DP "spent by the Serpent Sphinx did go to the player. 

                          Cool. That wasn’t clear to me from the original description. Thanks for clarifying.

                          #3 The way a villain used Determined Effort is that the GM states that the player's test (where offensive or defensive) fails. The player then rolls his test and the GM pays to player a number of DP required to turn what ever success they might have rolled into a failed test at the usual rate of 1 DP for 2 ranks, with a guaranteed minimum of at least 1 DP even if the player fails on the test anyway.

                          I don't think this is explicitly written anywhere in the rules but I don;t see how Probability Control, which a number of official villains have, could possibly work otherwise.

                          Steve Kenson explained his approach to this some time ago here; the version below is copied from the compilation posted on the Truth & Justice Wiki:

                          Q: How do I handle a villain (or non-player hero) with Probability Control when they don't have or use Determination?

                          A: [Steve Kenson:] Similar to a hero, the villain has "bonus" Determination equal to the Probability Control power's level. The Good Luck version allows the villain to effectively increase an ability by +2 per point spent for one action or retcon "lucky breaks". The Bad Luck version allows the villain to increase difficulties for others by +2 per point spent or retcon "unlucky breaks" for them.

                          In both cases, the GM gets a number of "free" uses equal to the villain's power level before having to award the players any Determination. Any uses of Probability Control past that point should award Determination like any other challenge or villainous use of Determination.

                          Example: The Killer Gamemaster uses his Probability Control to cause a ladder to break under a hero, increasing the difficulty of the Coordination test by +2.This costs one of his "free" uses of Probability Control but does not award the affect hero a Determination
                          point.

                          Some GMs may wish to award Determination for villainous uses of Probability Control anyway, depending on the style of the game. Typically, most villains will exhaust their free uses fairly quickly, especially if they are facing a whole team of heroes, but some groups may find being deprived of the usual rewards of encountering challenges somewhat frustrating. Balance withholding and awarding Determination as best suits the flow of your game.

                          Great Power suggests a different approach (p. 104):

                          Since Game Master characters do not have or use Determination, treat uses of Probability Control by them as temporary challenges (Icons, p. 92), much like any other “bad luck” the GM chooses to impose on the heroes by way of the story. This makes Probability Control more of a player-focused power, since GM characters eff ectively have unlimited uses of challenges (so long as the GM awards the players Determination).

                          If you wish, this power can give a GM character “free” challenges equal to the power level; instances where Probability Control challenges do not award the players any Determination, but this is not recommended, since it interferes with the intended free flow of Determination in game play. Game Masters may want to limit “free” uses to retcons, allowing probability controlling GM characters more freedom to control the environment without directly affecting the heroes.

                          In either case, Steve has treated the “as written” version of Probability Control as the way heroes use it, and has treated GM character use of the power differently. I’ve used the FAQ version with my kids previously, and now that GP is out I’ll be using that method. As a GM, I would always opt for one of these methods instead of letting a GM character use Determined Effort, for this reason: What happens if the attacking hero wants to use Determined Effort against a villain with Probability Control who wants to use inverse Determined Effort as a function of PC/Bad Luck? Do you go into a Determination bidding war? The GM character will always win something like that. Do you go by who shouted it out first? It just creates too many headaches, so one of the methods outlined above makes things flow far smoother (and the second one is now “official” for groups using GP anyway).

                          Not trying to get into a big argument here, just suggesting that there are resources already in place to avoid the problems that can arise. I am a “lazy” enough GM to take the path of least resistance.

                          Chris Heard
                          Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                          http://drchris.me/d20
                          ><> ב״ה




                        • stevekenson
                          First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game! So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                            First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                            So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                            If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                            Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                            The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                            You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                            Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                            Hope that helps!
                            Steve
                            _____
                            Steve Kenson
                            stevekenson@...
                            www.stevekenson.com





                          • Soylent Green
                            Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It s the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                              Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 

                              At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".

                              As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.

                              Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.

                              So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?


                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              From: stevekenson@...
                              Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                               
                              First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                              So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                              If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                              Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                              The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                              You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                              Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                              Hope that helps!
                              Steve
                              _____
                              Steve Kenson
                              stevekenson@...
                              www.stevekenson.com






                            • John McMullen
                              Because Hero Pack 1 didn t have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge? Cause, you know,
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                                Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?

                                'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)

                                If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                 
                                John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                jhmcmullen@...


                                From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina




                                Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 

                                At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".

                                As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.

                                Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.

                                So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?


                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                From: stevekenson@...
                                Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                                 
                                First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                                So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                                If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                                Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                                The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                                You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                                Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                                Hope that helps!
                                Steve
                                _____
                                Steve Kenson
                                stevekenson@...
                                www.stevekenson.com










                              • John McMullen
                                At the risk of derailing, I ll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 16, 2013
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                                  At the risk of derailing, I'll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food fortune, and him just a bit of a sociopath: at one point, to try and make up to her, he sent her a heart. A human heart. But don't worry, it was his. He'd taken it from his own chest.) "Dying is easy; I've done it a lot. Comedy--that's hard."

                                  Animation as a useful power really needs you to be somewhere there's lots of stuff to animate: a topiary, a park with lots of statuary, a mall, a museum...like that. 
                                   
                                  John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                  jhmcmullen@...


                                  From: stevekenson <stevekenson@...>
                                  To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:33 AM
                                  Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina



                                  First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                                  So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                                  If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                                  Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                                  The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                                  You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                                  Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                                  Hope that helps!
                                  Steve
                                  _____
                                  Steve Kenson
                                  stevekenson@...
                                  www.stevekenson.com









                                • dirkgentry2000
                                  Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn t it? re: Spider-Fridge. I ll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                                    re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                                    I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                                    IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                                    With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                                    I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                    >
                                    > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                    >
                                    > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                    >  
                                    > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                    > jhmcmullen@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                    > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                    > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                    >
                                    > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                    >
                                    > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                    >
                                    > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                    >
                                    > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: stevekenson@...
                                    > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                    > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                    >
                                    > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                    >
                                    > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                    >
                                    > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                    >
                                    > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                    >
                                    > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                    >
                                    > Hope that helps!
                                    > Steve
                                    > _____
                                    > Steve Kenson
                                    > stevekenson@...
                                    > www.stevekenson.com
                                    >
                                  • Soylent Green
                                    Derail away, derail away :-) Your right of course, animation has its greatest potential where there is a lot of interesting objects to animate. But at pinch
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Derail away, derail away :-)

                                      Your right of course, animation has its greatest potential where there is a lot of interesting objects to animate. But at pinch even a modest lamp post can display remarkable personality once animated.


                                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: jhmcmullen@...
                                      Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:29:38 -0700
                                      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina

                                       

                                      At the risk of derailing, I'll say that they were fun in my Hope Prep game, even being temporarily broken up. (I made her an heir to the McCain frozen food fortune, and him just a bit of a sociopath: at one point, to try and make up to her, he sent her a heart. A human heart. But don't worry, it was his. He'd taken it from his own chest.) "Dying is easy; I've done it a lot. Comedy--that's hard."

                                      Animation as a useful power really needs you to be somewhere there's lots of stuff to animate: a topiary, a park with lots of statuary, a mall, a museum...like that. 
                                       
                                      John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                      jhmcmullen@...


                                      From: stevekenson <stevekenson@...>
                                      To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:33 AM
                                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina



                                      First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!

                                      So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.

                                      If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers

                                      Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).

                                      The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid

                                      You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).

                                      Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.

                                      Hope that helps!
                                      Steve
                                      _____
                                      Steve Kenson
                                      stevekenson@...
                                      www.stevekenson.com










                                    • Soylent Green
                                      Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that. Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.

                                        Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 

                                        I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 


                                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                        Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                                         
                                        Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                                        re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                                        I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                                        IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                                        With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                                        I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                        >
                                        > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                        >
                                        > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                        >  
                                        > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                        > jhmcmullen@...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                        > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                        > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                        >
                                        > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                        >
                                        > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                        >
                                        > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                        >
                                        > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                        > From: stevekenson@...
                                        > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                        > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                        >
                                        > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                        >
                                        > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                        >
                                        > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                        >
                                        > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                        >
                                        > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                        >
                                        > Hope that helps!
                                        > Steve
                                        > _____
                                        > Steve Kenson
                                        > stevekenson@...
                                        > www.stevekenson.com
                                        >


                                      • John McMullen
                                        For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)

                                          It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 

                                          But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                                           
                                          John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                          jhmcmullen@...


                                          From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                          To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge



                                          Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.

                                          Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 

                                          I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 


                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                          Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                                           
                                          Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?

                                          re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.

                                          I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)

                                          IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.

                                          With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.

                                          I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.

                                          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                          >
                                          > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                          >
                                          > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                          >  
                                          > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                          > jhmcmullen@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                          > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                          > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                          >
                                          > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                          >
                                          > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                          >
                                          > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                          >
                                          > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: stevekenson@...
                                          > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                          > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                          >
                                          > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                          >
                                          > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                          >
                                          > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                          >
                                          > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                          >
                                          > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                          >
                                          > Hope that helps!
                                          > Steve
                                          > _____
                                          > Steve Kenson
                                          > stevekenson@...
                                          > www.stevekenson.com
                                          >






                                        • dirkgentry2000
                                          IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                                            >
                                            > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                                            >
                                            > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                                            >  
                                            > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                            > jhmcmullen@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                            > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                                            > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                                            >
                                            > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                                            > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                            > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                            > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                            > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                                            >
                                            > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                                            >
                                            > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                                            >
                                            > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                                            >
                                            > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                                            >
                                            > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                                            >
                                            > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                            > >
                                            > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                            > >
                                            > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                            > >  
                                            > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                            > > jhmcmullen@
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ________________________________
                                            > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                                            > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                            > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                            > >
                                            > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                            > >
                                            > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                            > >
                                            > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                            > >
                                            > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ________________________________
                                            > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > From: stevekenson@
                                            > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                            > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                            > >
                                            > >  
                                            > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                            > >
                                            > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                            > >
                                            > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                            > >
                                            > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                            > >
                                            > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                            > >
                                            > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                            > >
                                            > > Hope that helps!
                                            > > Steve
                                            > > _____
                                            > > Steve Kenson
                                            > > stevekenson@
                                            > > www.stevekenson.com
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Chris Tavares
                                            There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like Epithet and Catchphrase . Those exact literal words. Hm, this character
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment

                                              There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”

                                               

                                              I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.

                                               

                                              -Chris

                                               

                                               

                                              From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                                              Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                                               

                                               


                                              IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                                              >
                                              > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                                              >
                                              > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                                              >  
                                              > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                              > jhmcmullen@...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                              > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                                              > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                                              >
                                              > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                                              > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                              > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                              > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                              > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                                              >
                                              > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                                              >
                                              > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                                              >
                                              > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                                              >
                                              > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                                              >
                                              > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                                              >
                                              > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                              > >
                                              > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                              > >
                                              > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                              > >  
                                              > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                              > > jhmcmullen@
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ________________________________
                                              > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                                              > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                              > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                              > >
                                              > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                              > >
                                              > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                              > >
                                              > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                              > >
                                              > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ________________________________
                                              > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > From: stevekenson@
                                              > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                              > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                              > >
                                              > >  
                                              > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                              > >
                                              > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                              > >
                                              > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                              > >
                                              > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                              > >
                                              > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                              > >
                                              > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                              > >
                                              > > Hope that helps!
                                              > > Steve
                                              > > _____
                                              > > Steve Kenson
                                              > > stevekenson@
                                              > > www.stevekenson.com
                                              > >
                                              >

                                            • Theron Bretz
                                              My suspicion is that the issue crept in during layout. The generic Aspects were placeholder text that didn t get replaced. Sent from my iPhone ... My suspicion
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                My suspicion is that the issue crept in during layout. The generic Aspects were placeholder text that didn't get replaced. 

                                                Sent from my iPhone

                                                On May 16, 2013, at 12:34 PM, "Chris Tavares" <cct@...> wrote:

                                                There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”

                                                 

                                                I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.

                                                 

                                                -Chris

                                                 

                                                 

                                                From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                                                Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge

                                                 

                                                 


                                                IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                                                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                                                >
                                                > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                                                >
                                                > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                                                >  
                                                > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                                > jhmcmullen@...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                                > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                                                > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                                                >
                                                > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                                                > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                                > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                                > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                                >
                                                >  
                                                > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                                                >
                                                > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                                                >
                                                > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                                                >
                                                > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                                                >
                                                > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                                                >
                                                > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                                                >
                                                > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                                > >
                                                > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                                > >
                                                > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                                > >  
                                                > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                                > > jhmcmullen@
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ________________________________
                                                > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                                                > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                                > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                                > >
                                                > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                                > >
                                                > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                                > >
                                                > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                                > >
                                                > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ________________________________
                                                > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > From: stevekenson@
                                                > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                                > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                                > >
                                                > >  
                                                > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                                > >
                                                > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                                > >
                                                > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                                > >
                                                > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                                > >
                                                > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                                > >
                                                > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                                > >
                                                > > Hope that helps!
                                                > > Steve
                                                > > _____
                                                > > Steve Kenson
                                                > > stevekenson@
                                                > > www.stevekenson.com
                                                > >
                                                >

                                              • John McMullen
                                                Sure, learning experiences are fine. And I m happy with the product line now, even if that one is a bit disappointing. One can be disappointed in individual
                                                Message 23 of 23 , May 16, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Sure, learning experiences are fine. And I'm happy with the product line now, even if that one is a bit disappointing.

                                                  One can be disappointed in individual products and still like the line. (I know that's heresy in some circles.) :)
                                                   
                                                  John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                                  jhmcmullen@...


                                                  From: Chris Tavares <cct@...>
                                                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:34 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge



                                                  There are aspects in HP1, but they are wrong. The aspects listed are things like “Epithet” and “Catchphrase”. Those exact literal words. “Hm, this character has a catchphrase. Too bad I don’t know what it is!”
                                                   
                                                  I chalk that up to a learning experience – HP1 was written before Icons was released after all.
                                                   
                                                  -Chris
                                                   
                                                  From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dirkgentry2000
                                                  Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:24 AM
                                                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  IIRC aspects were actually written for the HP1 characters. They were taken out though. I was never sure why. But - water under the bridge as they say

                                                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > For my part, I thought that the lack of aspects and write--ups in HP1 was quite damning. I can roll up stats myself; a book of artwork and space to write characters beside each picture would have been as useful to me, and perhaps more. (See? There's a product for Dan: 60 character pictures, released as a PDF form, one per page, each with a text field beside it so that buyers can fill in whatever character in whatever system they want.)
                                                  >
                                                  > It wasn't until the free partial (2.5?) that I looked at it again, and then I was happy enough to put HP2 and so forth on my wishlist at RPGNow. 
                                                  >
                                                  > But: different tastes for different tongues, as no one ever says because I just made it up.
                                                  >  
                                                  > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                                  > jhmcmullen@...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                                                  > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 12:51 PM
                                                  > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for the background on Susan. I never knew that.
                                                  >
                                                  > Spider-Fridge and The Octofather are probably the two canon characters my players (well those who have been into Icons for a while) are the most eager to see. I don't think I can fit in Spider-Fridge this campaign which, while is shaping up to light-hearted but not quite The Tick surreal. 
                                                  > I'd be content if all HP1 characters had Aspects but then considering the amount of art it's still a pretty good bargain. 
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > From: dirkgentry2000@...
                                                  > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:54:17 +0000
                                                  > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Spider-Fridge
                                                  >
                                                  >  
                                                  > Would have been really handy if there were write-ups in HP1, wouldn't it?
                                                  >
                                                  > re: Spider-Fridge. I'll mention this to Dan - he might have a more authoritative answer.
                                                  >
                                                  > I wrote the stats as a favor to Dan from a very sparse description from the backer (whose name I have forgotten)
                                                  >
                                                  > IIRC - I believe that Spider-Fridge was a gangster's moll who was rubbed out after she witnessed something she wasn't supposed to. She returned (ala the Crow) to avenge her death and fight crime -- by possessing a refrigerator in her murderous boyfriend's cocktail bar.
                                                  >
                                                  > With the requested name of Spider-Fridge, I went for a combo of Spiderman and Iceman ---- who also had the physical durability of a sturdy home appliance.
                                                  >
                                                  > I'd be curious to hear if Spider-Fridge had been used in anyone's game and if so how he/she was roleplayed.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Because Hero Pack 1 didn't have any write-ups, and I clearly missed the memos, can someone tell me just what the deal is with Spider-Fridge?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > 'Cause, you know, if I look at it without being in a whacky state of mind, it's a fridge. And clearly I'm missing something, because so many people adore him/her/it. (Even then, it might not work, because as Mark Twain said, dissecting a joke is kind of like dissecting a frog: you end up with a mess and a dead frog. But I'm curious.)
                                                  > >
                                                  > > If it's written up somewhere else, just point me to it; we don't necessarily need to clutter the list with the explanation. 
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                                                  > > jhmcmullen@
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ________________________________
                                                  > > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@>
                                                  > > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 10:25 AM
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yeah, Harlequin and Colombina were tons of fun as villains. It's the fact that they are a couple that creates a special dynamic, not unlike Joker and Harely in Batman: The Animated Series. Though I did draw the line at having her call him "Pudding". 
                                                  > >
                                                  > > At one point during the fight Colombina became overcome by jealousy as got into her head that one of the the characters was making a move on her man. Colobima wasn't entirely off base - this character had the Aspect "attracted to bad boys".
                                                  > >
                                                  > > As for Harlequin, well Animatation is one of those showy powers you can have a lot of fun with.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Also, as we were short of players I brought in The Cougar from Hero Pack 1 as one of the heroes team members. Having the GM running a character can be tricky, old Cougar is a pretty basic hero unlikely to outshine the player characters unlike, say, Spider-Fridge who would clearly steal the show.  Besides the picture of Cougar cracks me up every time, I had to find a way to use him eventually.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So my tour of the Icons-verse continues. I wonder who should I bring in for the next adventure?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ________________________________
                                                  > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > From: stevekenson@
                                                  > > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:33:23 -0400
                                                  > > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Fun with Harlequin and Colombina
                                                  > >
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > First off, glad to hear Harlequin and Colombina were a fun addition to your game!
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So far as handling the Sleep test against the Serpent Sphinx, you called it right, in my opinion: when the GM chooses to have a villain resist an effect, you award the player a Determination point. I also tend to "refund" any Determination the player has spent on the test, since I'm essentially nullifying its outcome, so awarding two Determination in this instance would not have been inappropriate.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > If you're looking for an interim stage between "you succeed and he's out!" and "nope, that doesn't work" take a look at the maneuver rules on the wiki: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Maneuvers
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Rather than an immediate "take out" you can say: "The Serpent Sphinx fights off your influence, but he sways a bit on his feet and is looking a little Drowsy," giving the villain the temporary aspect "Drowsy" and allowing the players to tag it, and even granting a free tag to the player who placed it. If the aspect isn't fragile, the villain might even spend a page shaking off the temporary aspect, giving the players a breather to regroup (or, in the Serpent Sphinx's case, momentarily breaking his concentration on other matters, like controlling his minions).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The guidelines for Pyramid Tests may also be useful: http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Success+Pyramid
                                                  > >
                                                  > > You can allow partial success on some tests to accumulate success towards overcoming a foe through means other than just Stamina damage (see the Skeletron example in the article).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Also, tagging generally does require spending Determination (or is a prerequisite to it) but its mentioned separately because sometimes there are "free" tags as with maneuvers where tagging does not involve Determination as such.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hope that helps!
                                                  > > Steve
                                                  > > _____
                                                  > > Steve Kenson
                                                  > > stevekenson@
                                                  > > www.stevekenson.com
                                                  > >
                                                  >




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