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Re: [icons-rpg] Re: scale progression

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  • John McMullen
    I ve seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that fair has (at least) two meanings,
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 19, 2013
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      I've seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O'Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that "fair" has (at least) two meanings, one of which is essentially average ("I did fair on the test") and one of which is  better than average ("It was fair weather for sailing"). Avoiding one of the two seems called for, and since there's less ambiguity with "average" I'd suggest keeping it. (Not no amibiguity, I hasten to assure the math majors.)
       
      Yet the implication of even the above-average fair does not suggest "astonishing" or "spectacular" to me.
       
      Mediocre might do, but it has its roots in "medium"  which is close in meaning to "average." Gah. This kind of thing is always difficult.
       
      You have:
       
      Weak
      Poor
      Average
      Fair
      Good
      Great
      Incredible
      Amazing
      ???
      Cosmic
       
      I might have (and this is off the top of my head, because we use numbers):
       
      Terrible
      Poor
      Typical
      Good
      Great
      Outstanding
      Incredible
      Amazing
      Fantastic
      Titanic
       
      I have Titanic as the highest because normally Strength 10 means lifting a mountain or equivalent, and Atlas--who did something similar, seeing as the Greeks thought the world was a bit smaller--was a Titan. However, there's certainly debate about what any word means: there are really only three levels: Below average to average; above average but still human; extrahuman. Then you have to fight about word meaning within those levels.
       
      Less nice words but with a nicer set of initials (that is, in alphabetical order as a deliberate choice):
       
      Atrocious
      Bad
      Fair
      Good
      Impressive
      Legendary
      Marvelous
      Remarkable
      Super
      Titanic
       
      I'd probably reserve Cosmic and Godlike for off the scale or for games where you deliberately set the scale higher (and also avoiding arguments over whether cosmic means better than god-like).
       
      I think Tim is right that there are essentially two scales: one for abilities everyone has, and one for things where mere possession makes you special: almost everyone can hear, so you have to be able to distinguish levels of hearing both normal and exceptional, but no one can fly, so being able to even hover makes you out of the human realm.
       
      John
       
      John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
      jhmcmullen@...

      From: Dethrael <dethrael@...>
      To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: scale progression



      I also don't think fair should be after average, you could use astonishing or spectacular for one of them.

      Sent from my iPad

      On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:

      I think Tim's idea that Cosmic is off the scale sounds right, but my real thought lies on the lower end. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, but I think of "poor" as being worse than "weak."


      On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Tim <ethernaut@...> wrote:
       
      My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities:

      1 Weak
      2 Mediocre
      3 Typical
      4 Noteworthy
      5 Elite
      6 Cinematic
      7 Extrahuman
      8 Superhuman
      9 Ultrahuman
      10 Godlike

      I put Cosmic off the scale.

      These work for abilities where humans are mostly limited to 6 or below.

      For powers (where just having a Power is special):

      1 Weak
      2 Mediocre
      3 Typical
      4 Good
      5 Remarkable
      6 Fantastic
      7 Incredible
      8 Amazing
      9 Awesome
      10 Godlike

      Your mileage may vary, of course.

      --- In mailto:icons-rpg%40yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
      >
      > Weak
      > Poor
      > Average
      > Fair
      > Good
      > Great
      > Incredible
      > Amazing
      > ???
      > Cosmic
      >
      > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
      > _____
      > Steve Kenson
      > stevekenson@...
      > http://www.stevekenson.com/
      >






    • David C
      The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn t
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 19, 2013
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        The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn't Legendary be higher than Marvelous? As an X-men fan, I'd like to see Uncanny way up on the list, above Amazing... but is that accurate?

        I honestly have trouble sometimes remembering which level was better in MSH just going by the adjectives.

        david

        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
        >
        > Weak
        > Poor
        > Average
        > Fair
        > Good
        > Great
        > Incredible
        > Amazing
        > ???
        > Cosmic
        >
        > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
        > _____
        > Steve Kenson
        > stevekenson@...
        > www.stevekenson.com
        >
      • stevekenson
        ... Quite so. Obviously, I m thinking of it in the latter sense (better than average, but sort of a modifier on Good as in Fairly Good putting it between
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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          On Mar 20, 2013, at 6:54 AM, John McMullen wrote:
          > I've seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O'Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that "fair" has (at least) two meanings, one of which is essentially average ("I did fair on the test") and one of which is better than average ("It was fair weather for sailing").

          Quite so. Obviously, I'm thinking of it in the latter sense (better than average, but sort of a modifier on "Good" as in "Fairly Good" putting it between Average and a solid Good).

          I'm allergic to the use of "Mediocre" (my least favorite Fudge adjective), perhaps because mediocrity has come to have "less than average" or "lowest common denominator" connotation.

          Both Astonishing and Spectacular have potential. I also like the suggestion of "Supreme" for the level 10 slot.
          _____
          Steve Kenson
          stevekenson@...
          www.stevekenson.com
        • Mike Morgado
          I loved the Marvel adjectives. :) That was my first ever roleplaying game. I like Legendary as the rank 10.  Cosmic should be off the scale IMO   Sent from
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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            I loved the Marvel adjectives. :) That was my first ever roleplaying game.

            I like Legendary as the rank 10.  Cosmic should be off the scale IMO

             
            Sent from the SDF-5 Command Ship


            From: David C <jokagaru@...>
            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:44:41 AM
            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: scale progression

             
            The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn't Legendary be higher than Marvelous? As an X-men fan, I'd like to see Uncanny way up on the list, above Amazing... but is that accurate?

            I honestly have trouble sometimes remembering which level was better in MSH just going by the adjectives.

            david

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
            >
            > Weak
            > Poor
            > Average
            > Fair
            > Good
            > Great
            > Incredible
            > Amazing
            > ???
            > Cosmic
            >
            > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
            > _____
            > Steve Kenson
            > stevekenson@...
            > www.stevekenson.com
            >



          • Jon Lang
            The scale I d use: 0: Abysmal 1: Terrible 2: Poor 3: Mediocre 4: Fair 5: Good 6: Great 7: Outstanding 8: Awesome 9: Incredible 10: Supreme Reasoning: Terrible
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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              The scale I'd use:

              0: Abysmal
              1: Terrible
              2: Poor
              3: Mediocre
              4: Fair
              5: Good
              6: Great
              7: Outstanding
              8: Awesome
              9: Incredible
              10: Supreme

              Reasoning:
              Terrible is definitely worse than Poor; but Abysmal is the absolute worst.  Conversely, Supreme is the absolute best; so I'd bookend the scale with these two adjectives.  If you're assigning numbers to them, I'd be inclined to put Abysmal at "zero".  

              Average and Typical tend to be statistical in nature (Average is the Mean, or the mid-point where there are as many examples down-scale as up-scale; and Typical is the Mode, or the point on the scale that most frequently occurs), and so don't strike me as good terms to use in building the scale itself: they're better off being reserved for use in talking about the scale.  

              Mediocre, Fair, and Adequate are essentially defined as "worse than Good, but better than Poor"; and Mediocre falls just short of being "good enough to get by", and so is clearly between Poor and the other two.  I'd go with Fair because it's a more broadly-applicable term than Adequate; I wouldn't try to use both because the relative definitions of Fair and Adequate are murky.  

              I went with "Outstanding" rather than "Superb" to avoid confusion between "Superb" and "Supreme": they just look too much alike.  

              Great is better than Good; and Outstanding is better than Great, but not good enough to bring the sense of awe implied by Amazing or Astounding (which, according to Merriam-Webster, are essentially synonyms: "Amazing" is "something that astounds").  I'd also put Astonishing and Awesome on par with Amazing and Astounding: all four of these imply something that's awe-inspiring.  Pick one and go with it; I chose Awesome because its most clearly about being "awe-inspiring".  

              However, Incredible and Fantastic take it beyond awe-inspiring into the realm of invoking disbelief (something is "fantastic" if it is "like a fantasy"; something is "Incredible" if it is "not credible").  Of the two, I'd be inclined to go with "Incredible", because the sense of disbelief is right there in the name.  When measuring human capability, Awesome is the highest that is believable; Incredible starts getting into the territory of tall tales.  

              And, as I said at the start, Supreme is the upper limit: it's the absolute best that's possible.  Which means that anything beyond Supreme is in the realm of the impossible.  

              If using 4dF as your randomizer, it's worth noting that someone with Fair (4) ability can achieve results ranging from Abysmal to Awesome; but an Incredible result is literally too good to be true.  

              On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 8:15 AM, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
               

              Thoughts on this Scale progression...?


              Weak
              Poor
              Average
              Fair
              Good
              Great
              Incredible
              Amazing
              ???
              Cosmic

              Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...




              --
              Jonathan "Dataweaver" Lang

            • shadow_walker_818
              Well, for the original Marvel Game by TSR, I added the following: 35 Fantastic 45 Spectacular (for Spectacular Spiderman) 60 Sensational (if I recall,
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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                Well, for the original Marvel Game by TSR, I added the following:

                35 Fantastic
                45 Spectacular (for Spectacular Spiderman)
                60 Sensational (if I recall, correctly, for Sensational She-Hulk)
                90 Awesome

                Other possibilities: Astonishing, Uncanny, Marvelous, Phenomenal, Godlike


                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                >
                > Weak
                > Poor
                > Average
                > Fair
                > Good
                > Great
                > Incredible
                > Amazing
                > ???
                > Cosmic
                >
                > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                > _____
                > Steve Kenson
                > stevekenson@...
                > www.stevekenson.com
                >
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