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Re: [icons-rpg] scale progression

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  • lordblacksteel
    fair being a step up from average seems a little off.
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 16, 2013
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      "fair" being a step up from "average" seems a little off.

      On Mar 16, 2013, at 10:15 AM, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:

       

      Thoughts on this Scale progression...?


      Weak
      Poor
      Average
      Fair
      Good
      Great
      Incredible
      Amazing
      ???
      Cosmic

      Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...

    • Bill Olander
      I would put Fair below Average. For things above Great I think I would want words that go beyond synonyms for really good because I always get confused by
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 16, 2013
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        I would put Fair below Average. 
        For things above Great I think I would want words that go beyond synonyms for 'really good' because I always get confused by how they relate to each other.

        I like Cosmic because it describes something to me. So maybe:
        6 = Some synonym for 'Human Max'
        7 = Parahuman (just above human max)
        8 = Megahuman
        9 = Superhuman
        10 = Cosmic  

        I know that's a lot of 'human' but Superhuman is definitely better than Megahuman to me but Super and Mega are around equal.

        On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:15 AM, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
         

        Thoughts on this Scale progression...?


        Weak
        Poor
        Average
        Fair
        Good
        Great
        Incredible
        Amazing
        ???
        Cosmic

        Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...


      • Soylent Green
        You could try Legendary for level 9. To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: plusonesword@gmail.com Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:35:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [icons-rpg]
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 16, 2013
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          You could try Legendary for level 9.


          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: plusonesword@...
          Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 12:35:00 -0400
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] scale progression

           
          I would put Fair below Average. 
          For things above Great I think I would want words that go beyond synonyms for 'really good' because I always get confused by how they relate to each other.

          I like Cosmic because it describes something to me. So maybe:
          6 = Some synonym for 'Human Max'
          7 = Parahuman (just above human max)
          8 = Megahuman
          9 = Superhuman
          10 = Cosmic  

          I know that's a lot of 'human' but Superhuman is definitely better than Megahuman to me but Super and Mega are around equal.

          On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 11:15 AM, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
           
          Thoughts on this Scale progression...?

          Weak
          Poor
          Average
          Fair
          Good
          Great
          Incredible
          Amazing
          ???
          Cosmic

          Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...




        • Tim
          My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities: 1 Weak 2 Mediocre 3 Typical 4 Noteworthy 5 Elite 6 Cinematic 7 Extrahuman 8 Superhuman 9 Ultrahuman 10
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 17, 2013
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            My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities:

            1 Weak
            2 Mediocre
            3 Typical
            4 Noteworthy
            5 Elite
            6 Cinematic
            7 Extrahuman
            8 Superhuman
            9 Ultrahuman
            10 Godlike

            I put Cosmic off the scale.

            These work for abilities where humans are mostly limited to 6 or below.

            For powers (where just having a Power is special):

            1 Weak
            2 Mediocre
            3 Typical
            4 Good
            5 Remarkable
            6 Fantastic
            7 Incredible
            8 Amazing
            9 Awesome
            10 Godlike

            Your mileage may vary, of course.

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
            >
            > Weak
            > Poor
            > Average
            > Fair
            > Good
            > Great
            > Incredible
            > Amazing
            > ???
            > Cosmic
            >
            > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
            > _____
            > Steve Kenson
            > stevekenson@...
            > www.stevekenson.com
            >
          • Cameron Mount
            I think Tim s idea that Cosmic is off the scale sounds right, but my real thought lies on the lower end. I m not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, but I
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 17, 2013
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              I think Tim's idea that Cosmic is off the scale sounds right, but my real thought lies on the lower end. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, but I think of "poor" as being worse than "weak."


              On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Tim <ethernaut@...> wrote:
               

              My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities:

              1 Weak
              2 Mediocre
              3 Typical
              4 Noteworthy
              5 Elite
              6 Cinematic
              7 Extrahuman
              8 Superhuman
              9 Ultrahuman
              10 Godlike

              I put Cosmic off the scale.

              These work for abilities where humans are mostly limited to 6 or below.

              For powers (where just having a Power is special):

              1 Weak
              2 Mediocre
              3 Typical
              4 Good
              5 Remarkable
              6 Fantastic
              7 Incredible
              8 Amazing
              9 Awesome
              10 Godlike

              Your mileage may vary, of course.

              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
              >
              > Weak
              > Poor
              > Average
              > Fair
              > Good
              > Great
              > Incredible
              > Amazing
              > ???
              > Cosmic
              >
              > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
              > _____
              > Steve Kenson
              > stevekenson@...
              > www.stevekenson.com
              >


            • Dethrael
              I also don t think fair should be after average, you could use astonishing or spectacular for one of them. Sent from my iPad
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 17, 2013
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                I also don't think fair should be after average, you could use astonishing or spectacular for one of them.

                Sent from my iPad

                On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:

                I think Tim's idea that Cosmic is off the scale sounds right, but my real thought lies on the lower end. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, but I think of "poor" as being worse than "weak."


                On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Tim <ethernaut@...> wrote:
                 

                My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities:

                1 Weak
                2 Mediocre
                3 Typical
                4 Noteworthy
                5 Elite
                6 Cinematic
                7 Extrahuman
                8 Superhuman
                9 Ultrahuman
                10 Godlike

                I put Cosmic off the scale.

                These work for abilities where humans are mostly limited to 6 or below.

                For powers (where just having a Power is special):

                1 Weak
                2 Mediocre
                3 Typical
                4 Good
                5 Remarkable
                6 Fantastic
                7 Incredible
                8 Amazing
                9 Awesome
                10 Godlike

                Your mileage may vary, of course.

                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                >
                > Weak
                > Poor
                > Average
                > Fair
                > Good
                > Great
                > Incredible
                > Amazing
                > ???
                > Cosmic
                >
                > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                > _____
                > Steve Kenson
                > stevekenson@...
                > www.stevekenson.com
                >


              • John McMullen
                I ve seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that fair has (at least) two meanings,
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 19, 2013
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                  I've seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O'Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that "fair" has (at least) two meanings, one of which is essentially average ("I did fair on the test") and one of which is  better than average ("It was fair weather for sailing"). Avoiding one of the two seems called for, and since there's less ambiguity with "average" I'd suggest keeping it. (Not no amibiguity, I hasten to assure the math majors.)
                   
                  Yet the implication of even the above-average fair does not suggest "astonishing" or "spectacular" to me.
                   
                  Mediocre might do, but it has its roots in "medium"  which is close in meaning to "average." Gah. This kind of thing is always difficult.
                   
                  You have:
                   
                  Weak
                  Poor
                  Average
                  Fair
                  Good
                  Great
                  Incredible
                  Amazing
                  ???
                  Cosmic
                   
                  I might have (and this is off the top of my head, because we use numbers):
                   
                  Terrible
                  Poor
                  Typical
                  Good
                  Great
                  Outstanding
                  Incredible
                  Amazing
                  Fantastic
                  Titanic
                   
                  I have Titanic as the highest because normally Strength 10 means lifting a mountain or equivalent, and Atlas--who did something similar, seeing as the Greeks thought the world was a bit smaller--was a Titan. However, there's certainly debate about what any word means: there are really only three levels: Below average to average; above average but still human; extrahuman. Then you have to fight about word meaning within those levels.
                   
                  Less nice words but with a nicer set of initials (that is, in alphabetical order as a deliberate choice):
                   
                  Atrocious
                  Bad
                  Fair
                  Good
                  Impressive
                  Legendary
                  Marvelous
                  Remarkable
                  Super
                  Titanic
                   
                  I'd probably reserve Cosmic and Godlike for off the scale or for games where you deliberately set the scale higher (and also avoiding arguments over whether cosmic means better than god-like).
                   
                  I think Tim is right that there are essentially two scales: one for abilities everyone has, and one for things where mere possession makes you special: almost everyone can hear, so you have to be able to distinguish levels of hearing both normal and exceptional, but no one can fly, so being able to even hover makes you out of the human realm.
                   
                  John
                   
                  John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                  jhmcmullen@...

                  From: Dethrael <dethrael@...>
                  To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                  Cc: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:37 PM
                  Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: scale progression



                  I also don't think fair should be after average, you could use astonishing or spectacular for one of them.

                  Sent from my iPad

                  On Mar 17, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:

                  I think Tim's idea that Cosmic is off the scale sounds right, but my real thought lies on the lower end. I'm not sure I can put my finger on exactly why, but I think of "poor" as being worse than "weak."


                  On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Tim <ethernaut@...> wrote:
                   
                  My own personal ICONS scale for Abilities:

                  1 Weak
                  2 Mediocre
                  3 Typical
                  4 Noteworthy
                  5 Elite
                  6 Cinematic
                  7 Extrahuman
                  8 Superhuman
                  9 Ultrahuman
                  10 Godlike

                  I put Cosmic off the scale.

                  These work for abilities where humans are mostly limited to 6 or below.

                  For powers (where just having a Power is special):

                  1 Weak
                  2 Mediocre
                  3 Typical
                  4 Good
                  5 Remarkable
                  6 Fantastic
                  7 Incredible
                  8 Amazing
                  9 Awesome
                  10 Godlike

                  Your mileage may vary, of course.

                  --- In mailto:icons-rpg%40yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                  >
                  > Weak
                  > Poor
                  > Average
                  > Fair
                  > Good
                  > Great
                  > Incredible
                  > Amazing
                  > ???
                  > Cosmic
                  >
                  > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                  > _____
                  > Steve Kenson
                  > stevekenson@...
                  > http://www.stevekenson.com/
                  >






                • David C
                  The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn t
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 19, 2013
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                    The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn't Legendary be higher than Marvelous? As an X-men fan, I'd like to see Uncanny way up on the list, above Amazing... but is that accurate?

                    I honestly have trouble sometimes remembering which level was better in MSH just going by the adjectives.

                    david

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                    >
                    > Weak
                    > Poor
                    > Average
                    > Fair
                    > Good
                    > Great
                    > Incredible
                    > Amazing
                    > ???
                    > Cosmic
                    >
                    > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                    > _____
                    > Steve Kenson
                    > stevekenson@...
                    > www.stevekenson.com
                    >
                  • stevekenson
                    ... Quite so. Obviously, I m thinking of it in the latter sense (better than average, but sort of a modifier on Good as in Fairly Good putting it between
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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                      On Mar 20, 2013, at 6:54 AM, John McMullen wrote:
                      > I've seen the fair/average problem before (when Mr. O'Sullivan was devising FUDGE, in fact). Part of the problem is that "fair" has (at least) two meanings, one of which is essentially average ("I did fair on the test") and one of which is better than average ("It was fair weather for sailing").

                      Quite so. Obviously, I'm thinking of it in the latter sense (better than average, but sort of a modifier on "Good" as in "Fairly Good" putting it between Average and a solid Good).

                      I'm allergic to the use of "Mediocre" (my least favorite Fudge adjective), perhaps because mediocrity has come to have "less than average" or "lowest common denominator" connotation.

                      Both Astonishing and Spectacular have potential. I also like the suggestion of "Supreme" for the level 10 slot.
                      _____
                      Steve Kenson
                      stevekenson@...
                      www.stevekenson.com
                    • Mike Morgado
                      I loved the Marvel adjectives. :) That was my first ever roleplaying game. I like Legendary as the rank 10.  Cosmic should be off the scale IMO   Sent from
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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                        I loved the Marvel adjectives. :) That was my first ever roleplaying game.

                        I like Legendary as the rank 10.  Cosmic should be off the scale IMO

                         
                        Sent from the SDF-5 Command Ship


                        From: David C <jokagaru@...>
                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:44:41 AM
                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: scale progression

                         
                        The problem with adjectives is that it can vary from individual to individual what is a better word. Like, is Incredible better than Remarkable? Shouldn't Legendary be higher than Marvelous? As an X-men fan, I'd like to see Uncanny way up on the list, above Amazing... but is that accurate?

                        I honestly have trouble sometimes remembering which level was better in MSH just going by the adjectives.

                        david

                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                        >
                        > Weak
                        > Poor
                        > Average
                        > Fair
                        > Good
                        > Great
                        > Incredible
                        > Amazing
                        > ???
                        > Cosmic
                        >
                        > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                        > _____
                        > Steve Kenson
                        > stevekenson@...
                        > www.stevekenson.com
                        >



                      • Jon Lang
                        The scale I d use: 0: Abysmal 1: Terrible 2: Poor 3: Mediocre 4: Fair 5: Good 6: Great 7: Outstanding 8: Awesome 9: Incredible 10: Supreme Reasoning: Terrible
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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                          The scale I'd use:

                          0: Abysmal
                          1: Terrible
                          2: Poor
                          3: Mediocre
                          4: Fair
                          5: Good
                          6: Great
                          7: Outstanding
                          8: Awesome
                          9: Incredible
                          10: Supreme

                          Reasoning:
                          Terrible is definitely worse than Poor; but Abysmal is the absolute worst.  Conversely, Supreme is the absolute best; so I'd bookend the scale with these two adjectives.  If you're assigning numbers to them, I'd be inclined to put Abysmal at "zero".  

                          Average and Typical tend to be statistical in nature (Average is the Mean, or the mid-point where there are as many examples down-scale as up-scale; and Typical is the Mode, or the point on the scale that most frequently occurs), and so don't strike me as good terms to use in building the scale itself: they're better off being reserved for use in talking about the scale.  

                          Mediocre, Fair, and Adequate are essentially defined as "worse than Good, but better than Poor"; and Mediocre falls just short of being "good enough to get by", and so is clearly between Poor and the other two.  I'd go with Fair because it's a more broadly-applicable term than Adequate; I wouldn't try to use both because the relative definitions of Fair and Adequate are murky.  

                          I went with "Outstanding" rather than "Superb" to avoid confusion between "Superb" and "Supreme": they just look too much alike.  

                          Great is better than Good; and Outstanding is better than Great, but not good enough to bring the sense of awe implied by Amazing or Astounding (which, according to Merriam-Webster, are essentially synonyms: "Amazing" is "something that astounds").  I'd also put Astonishing and Awesome on par with Amazing and Astounding: all four of these imply something that's awe-inspiring.  Pick one and go with it; I chose Awesome because its most clearly about being "awe-inspiring".  

                          However, Incredible and Fantastic take it beyond awe-inspiring into the realm of invoking disbelief (something is "fantastic" if it is "like a fantasy"; something is "Incredible" if it is "not credible").  Of the two, I'd be inclined to go with "Incredible", because the sense of disbelief is right there in the name.  When measuring human capability, Awesome is the highest that is believable; Incredible starts getting into the territory of tall tales.  

                          And, as I said at the start, Supreme is the upper limit: it's the absolute best that's possible.  Which means that anything beyond Supreme is in the realm of the impossible.  

                          If using 4dF as your randomizer, it's worth noting that someone with Fair (4) ability can achieve results ranging from Abysmal to Awesome; but an Incredible result is literally too good to be true.  

                          On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 8:15 AM, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                           

                          Thoughts on this Scale progression...?


                          Weak
                          Poor
                          Average
                          Fair
                          Good
                          Great
                          Incredible
                          Amazing
                          ???
                          Cosmic

                          Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...




                          --
                          Jonathan "Dataweaver" Lang

                        • shadow_walker_818
                          Well, for the original Marvel Game by TSR, I added the following: 35 Fantastic 45 Spectacular (for Spectacular Spiderman) 60 Sensational (if I recall,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 20, 2013
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                            Well, for the original Marvel Game by TSR, I added the following:

                            35 Fantastic
                            45 Spectacular (for Spectacular Spiderman)
                            60 Sensational (if I recall, correctly, for Sensational She-Hulk)
                            90 Awesome

                            Other possibilities: Astonishing, Uncanny, Marvelous, Phenomenal, Godlike


                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, stevekenson <stevekenson@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thoughts on this Scale progression...?
                            >
                            > Weak
                            > Poor
                            > Average
                            > Fair
                            > Good
                            > Great
                            > Incredible
                            > Amazing
                            > ???
                            > Cosmic
                            >
                            > Not sure what should go in for level 9 (thinking about "Fantastic") or if "Cosmic" is the right one for level 10...
                            > _____
                            > Steve Kenson
                            > stevekenson@...
                            > www.stevekenson.com
                            >
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