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Re: [icons-rpg] Powerful minions/henchmen/etc for heroes

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  • Cameron Mount
    I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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      I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.

      My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

      So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


      On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
       

      Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

      One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
      soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
      answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
      to get the essence of the mastermind down.

      This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
      a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
      might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
      someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
      Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
      set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
      on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
      they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

      (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
      telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
      trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

      Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
      the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
      fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
      least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
      to handle them well in ICONS.

      There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
      disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
      durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
      Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
      overlooking?

      Regards,
      Bruce


    • Bruce Baugh
      Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :) Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn t
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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        Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :)

        Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn't thinking of!

        On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
         

        I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.


        My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

        So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


        On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
         

        Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

        One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
        soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
        answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
        to get the essence of the mastermind down.

        This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
        a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
        might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
        someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
        Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
        set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
        on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
        they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

        (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
        telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
        trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

        Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
        the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
        fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
        least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
        to handle them well in ICONS.

        There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
        disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
        durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
        Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
        overlooking?

        Regards,
        Bruce



      • Cameron Mount
        I think you could use it as a model for creating a Henchmen power, if nothing else.
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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          I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if nothing else.


          On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
           

          Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :)


          Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn't thinking of!

          On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
           

          I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.


          My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

          So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


          On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
           

          Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

          One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
          soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
          answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
          to get the essence of the mastermind down.

          This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
          a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
          might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
          someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
          Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
          set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
          on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
          they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

          (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
          telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
          trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

          Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
          the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
          fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
          least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
          to handle them well in ICONS.

          There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
          disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
          durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
          Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
          overlooking?

          Regards,
          Bruce




        • Bruce Baugh
          Yeah, definitely! Hmm! Alternate Form synced with Duplication, and then customization of each form...
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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            Yeah, definitely!

            Hmm! Alternate Form synced with Duplication, and then customization of each form...

            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
             

            I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if nothing else.



            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
             

            Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :)


            Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn't thinking of!

            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
             

            I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.


            My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

            So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
             

            Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

            One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
            soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
            answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
            to get the essence of the mastermind down.

            This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
            a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
            might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
            someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
            Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
            set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
            on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
            they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

            (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
            telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
            trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

            Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
            the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
            fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
            least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
            to handle them well in ICONS.

            There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
            disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
            durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
            Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
            overlooking?

            Regards,
            Bruce





          • Cameron Mount
            Here s a quick draft that you could use as an idea. (Not playtested at all, but it s a starting point). *Henchmen* *(Control Power)* You are a born leader, and
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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              Here's a quick draft that you could use as an idea. (Not playtested at all, but it's a starting point).

              Henchmen (Control Power)

              You are a born leader, and have followers that almost blindly follow your every instruction. You have a number of henchmen equal to your power level + 1, so two with Henchmen 1, three with Henchmen 2, and so forth. (The power to have virtually unlimited henchmen is off the scale.)

              Your Henchmen power level is linked to your intelligence or force of personality (Intellect or Willpower) and cannot exceed your level in that ability. Reduce a rolled value above that level to your ability level. At the GM's discretion, an appropriate Specialty (such as Science) may increase the effective level of your ability.

              Choose one of the following types of Henchmen. You can also make up other types with the Game Master's permission.

              Robots/Zombies/other lesser-thinking creatures (Intellect) - You have used your own intelligence to create a horde of followers that are loyal to you.

              Thugs/Ninjas/Other humans (Willpower) - You are extraordinarily charismatic and have convinced a group of like-minded individuals to do your bidding.

              Henchmen can have ability levels that equal up to your ability levels (so if all your abilities added together are 22, each henchman can have abilities that add up to 22) except that their Intellect or Willpower must be less than your own. Each henchman can have as many Specialties as you do - 1 (minimum 1), and can choose from any Specialty available to characters. Each henchman you have can have as many powers as you do - 1 (minimum 1), and can have any power that you choose except this one or a power that has the same effects--like Time Control-summon duplicates--so that henchmen cannot have henchmen of their own. You and your henchmen share the same pool of Determination, like a team. Henchmen act as independent characters, although the GM may want to use the guidelines for cooperation with a group of henchmen (see Combining Abilities p. 57)

              A dead or unconscious henchmen can only be replaced between scenes. If two or more henchmen die or are knocked unconscious in the same scene, roll a(n) Intellect or Willpower test against your power level to determine if your henchmen stick around or flee. If you are knocked out or killed, all your henchmen scatter and run away.



              (Notes: I was attempting to follow the limitations inherent in Wizardry by tying the power to an ability, especially since any henchmen can effectively have any power. I broke it up to the player's choice of intellect or willpower because I was thinking of things like robots/zombies/other lesser-thinking creations for intellect, or thugs/ninjas/Bond-villain-henchmen for willpower. There might be a case to be made for Strength and clans/barbarians/aliens/etc that value might over intelligence or willpower, but I think that's a fairly weak assumption and one that doesn't really hold up well over time. Most of the "might/right" people are also smart or charismatic.)


              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
              I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if nothing else.


              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
               

              Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :)


              Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn't thinking of!

              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
               

              I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.


              My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

              So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
               

              Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

              One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
              soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
              answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
              to get the essence of the mastermind down.

              This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
              a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
              might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
              someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
              Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
              set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
              on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
              they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

              (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
              telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
              trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

              Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
              the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
              fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
              least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
              to handle them well in ICONS.

              There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
              disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
              durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
              Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
              overlooking?

              Regards,
              Bruce





            • Bruce Baugh
              Ooh! That is very much the kind of thing I want. Off to poke and ponder more! :)
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                Ooh! That is very much the kind of thing I want. Off to poke and ponder more! :)

                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                 

                Here's a quick draft that you could use as an idea. (Not playtested at all, but it's a starting point).


                Henchmen (Control Power)

                You are a born leader, and have followers that almost blindly follow your every instruction. You have a number of henchmen equal to your power level + 1, so two with Henchmen 1, three with Henchmen 2, and so forth. (The power to have virtually unlimited henchmen is off the scale.)

                Your Henchmen power level is linked to your intelligence or force of personality (Intellect or Willpower) and cannot exceed your level in that ability. Reduce a rolled value above that level to your ability level. At the GM's discretion, an appropriate Specialty (such as Science) may increase the effective level of your ability.

                Choose one of the following types of Henchmen. You can also make up other types with the Game Master's permission.

                Robots/Zombies/other lesser-thinking creatures (Intellect) - You have used your own intelligence to create a horde of followers that are loyal to you.

                Thugs/Ninjas/Other humans (Willpower) - You are extraordinarily charismatic and have convinced a group of like-minded individuals to do your bidding.

                Henchmen can have ability levels that equal up to your ability levels (so if all your abilities added together are 22, each henchman can have abilities that add up to 22) except that their Intellect or Willpower must be less than your own. Each henchman can have as many Specialties as you do - 1 (minimum 1), and can choose from any Specialty available to characters. Each henchman you have can have as many powers as you do - 1 (minimum 1), and can have any power that you choose except this one or a power that has the same effects--like Time Control-summon duplicates--so that henchmen cannot have henchmen of their own. You and your henchmen share the same pool of Determination, like a team. Henchmen act as independent characters, although the GM may want to use the guidelines for cooperation with a group of henchmen (see Combining Abilities p. 57)

                A dead or unconscious henchmen can only be replaced between scenes. If two or more henchmen die or are knocked unconscious in the same scene, roll a(n) Intellect or Willpower test against your power level to determine if your henchmen stick around or flee. If you are knocked out or killed, all your henchmen scatter and run away.



                (Notes: I was attempting to follow the limitations inherent in Wizardry by tying the power to an ability, especially since any henchmen can effectively have any power. I broke it up to the player's choice of intellect or willpower because I was thinking of things like robots/zombies/other lesser-thinking creations for intellect, or thugs/ninjas/Bond-villain-henchmen for willpower. There might be a case to be made for Strength and clans/barbarians/aliens/etc that value might over intelligence or willpower, but I think that's a fairly weak assumption and one that doesn't really hold up well over time. Most of the "might/right" people are also smart or charismatic.)


                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if nothing else.


                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                 

                Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen. Thanks. :)


                Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I wasn't thinking of!

                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                 

                I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.


                My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

                So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                 

                Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

                One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
                soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
                answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
                to get the essence of the mastermind down.

                This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
                a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
                might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
                someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
                Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
                set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
                on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
                they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

                (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
                telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
                trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

                Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
                the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
                fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
                least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
                to handle them well in ICONS.

                There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
                disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
                durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
                Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
                overlooking?

                Regards,
                Bruce






              • dirkgentry2000
                hey - a Summon rule for handling minions was previously published (as OGL content) in Museum Mayhem from Vigilance Press. I just added that rule to the Icons
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                  hey - a Summon rule for handling minions was previously published (as OGL content) in Museum Mayhem from Vigilance Press.

                  I just added that rule to the Icons Truth and Justice wiki

                  You can check it out here:
                  http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Summon+Rule

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ooh! That is very much the kind of thing I want. Off to poke and ponder
                  > more! :)
                  >
                  > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...>wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Here's a quick draft that you could use as an idea. (Not playtested at
                  > > all, but it's a starting point).
                  > >
                  > > *Henchmen* *(Control Power)*
                  > >
                  > > You are a born leader, and have followers that almost blindly follow your
                  > > every instruction. You have a number of henchmen equal to your power level
                  > > + 1, so two with Henchmen 1, three with Henchmen 2, and so forth. (The
                  > > power to have virtually unlimited henchmen is off the scale.)
                  > >
                  > > Your Henchmen power level is linked to your intelligence or force of
                  > > personality (Intellect or Willpower) and cannot exceed your level in that
                  > > ability. Reduce a rolled value above that level to your ability level. At
                  > > the GM's discretion, an appropriate Specialty (such as Science) may
                  > > increase the effective level of your ability.
                  > >
                  > > Choose one of the following types of Henchmen. You can also make up other
                  > > types with the Game Master's permission.
                  > >
                  > > Robots/Zombies/other lesser-thinking creatures (Intellect) - You have used
                  > > your own intelligence to create a horde of followers that are loyal to you.
                  > >
                  > > Thugs/Ninjas/Other humans (Willpower) - You are extraordinarily
                  > > charismatic and have convinced a group of like-minded individuals to do
                  > > your bidding.
                  > >
                  > > Henchmen can have ability levels that equal up to your ability levels (so
                  > > if all your abilities added together are 22, each henchman can have
                  > > abilities that add up to 22) except that their Intellect or Willpower must
                  > > be less than your own. Each henchman can have as many Specialties as you do
                  > > - 1 (minimum 1), and can choose from any Specialty available to characters.
                  > > Each henchman you have can have as many powers as you do - 1 (minimum 1),
                  > > and can have any power that you choose except this one or a power that has
                  > > the same effects--like Time Control-summon duplicates--so that henchmen
                  > > cannot have henchmen of their own. You and your henchmen share the same
                  > > pool of Determination, like a team. Henchmen act as independent characters,
                  > > although the GM may want to use the guidelines for cooperation with a group
                  > > of henchmen (see Combining Abilities p. 57)
                  > >
                  > > A dead or unconscious henchmen can only be replaced between scenes. If two
                  > > or more henchmen die or are knocked unconscious in the same scene, roll
                  > > a(n) Intellect or Willpower test against your power level to determine if
                  > > your henchmen stick around or flee. If you are knocked out or killed, all
                  > > your henchmen scatter and run away.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > (Notes: I was attempting to follow the limitations inherent in Wizardry by
                  > > tying the power to an ability, especially since any henchmen can
                  > > effectively have any power. I broke it up to the player's choice of
                  > > intellect or willpower because I was thinking of things like
                  > > robots/zombies/other lesser-thinking creations for intellect, or
                  > > thugs/ninjas/Bond-villain-henchmen for willpower. There might be a case to
                  > > be made for Strength and clans/barbarians/aliens/etc that value might over
                  > > intelligence or willpower, but I think that's a fairly weak assumption and
                  > > one that doesn't really hold up well over time. Most of the "might/right"
                  > > people are also smart or charismatic.)
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...
                  > > > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if
                  > >> nothing else.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>> **
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen.
                  > >>> Thanks. :)
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I
                  > >>> wasn't thinking of!
                  > >>>
                  > >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <
                  > >>> cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>> **
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas
                  > >>>> and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and
                  > >>>> started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and
                  > >>>> then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a
                  > >>>> 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the
                  > >>>> closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent
                  > >>>> power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen
                  > >>>> weren't actually identical.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>> **
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
                  > >>>>> soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
                  > >>>>> answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
                  > >>>>> to get the essence of the mastermind down.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
                  > >>>>> a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
                  > >>>>> might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
                  > >>>>> someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
                  > >>>>> Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
                  > >>>>> set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
                  > >>>>> on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
                  > >>>>> they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
                  > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
                  > >>>>> telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
                  > >>>>> trap laying. The bots do the damage.)
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
                  > >>>>> the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
                  > >>>>> fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
                  > >>>>> least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
                  > >>>>> to handle them well in ICONS.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
                  > >>>>> disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
                  > >>>>> durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
                  > >>>>> Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
                  > >>>>> overlooking?
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Regards,
                  > >>>>> Bruce
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Bruce Baugh
                  Oh, hey. Thank you! I ve browsed some at the wiki, but, er, clearly not enough. :)
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                    Oh, hey. Thank you! I've browsed some at the wiki, but, er, clearly not enough. :)

                    On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 9:09 AM, dirkgentry2000 <dirkgentry2000@...> wrote:
                     

                    hey - a Summon rule for handling minions was previously published (as OGL content) in Museum Mayhem from Vigilance Press.

                    I just added that rule to the Icons Truth and Justice wiki

                    You can check it out here:
                    http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Summon+Rule


                  • Fabrício César Franco
                    Summon Rule is now open for everybody! And Cameron came up with a cool power! Two presents in one day! Yay! 2012/11/20 dirkgentry2000
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                      Summon Rule is now open for everybody! And Cameron came up with a cool power! Two presents in one day! Yay!


                      2012/11/20 dirkgentry2000 <dirkgentry2000@...>
                       

                      hey - a Summon rule for handling minions was previously published (as OGL content) in Museum Mayhem from Vigilance Press.

                      I just added that rule to the Icons Truth and Justice wiki

                      You can check it out here:
                      http://icons-truth-justice-and-gaming.wikispaces.com/Summon+Rule



                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ooh! That is very much the kind of thing I want. Off to poke and ponder
                      > more! :)
                      >
                      > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > > **

                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Here's a quick draft that you could use as an idea. (Not playtested at
                      > > all, but it's a starting point).
                      > >
                      > > *Henchmen* *(Control Power)*

                      > >
                      > > You are a born leader, and have followers that almost blindly follow your
                      > > every instruction. You have a number of henchmen equal to your power level
                      > > + 1, so two with Henchmen 1, three with Henchmen 2, and so forth. (The
                      > > power to have virtually unlimited henchmen is off the scale.)
                      > >
                      > > Your Henchmen power level is linked to your intelligence or force of
                      > > personality (Intellect or Willpower) and cannot exceed your level in that
                      > > ability. Reduce a rolled value above that level to your ability level. At
                      > > the GM's discretion, an appropriate Specialty (such as Science) may
                      > > increase the effective level of your ability.
                      > >
                      > > Choose one of the following types of Henchmen. You can also make up other
                      > > types with the Game Master's permission.
                      > >
                      > > Robots/Zombies/other lesser-thinking creatures (Intellect) - You have used
                      > > your own intelligence to create a horde of followers that are loyal to you.
                      > >
                      > > Thugs/Ninjas/Other humans (Willpower) - You are extraordinarily
                      > > charismatic and have convinced a group of like-minded individuals to do
                      > > your bidding.
                      > >
                      > > Henchmen can have ability levels that equal up to your ability levels (so
                      > > if all your abilities added together are 22, each henchman can have
                      > > abilities that add up to 22) except that their Intellect or Willpower must
                      > > be less than your own. Each henchman can have as many Specialties as you do
                      > > - 1 (minimum 1), and can choose from any Specialty available to characters.
                      > > Each henchman you have can have as many powers as you do - 1 (minimum 1),
                      > > and can have any power that you choose except this one or a power that has
                      > > the same effects--like Time Control-summon duplicates--so that henchmen
                      > > cannot have henchmen of their own. You and your henchmen share the same
                      > > pool of Determination, like a team. Henchmen act as independent characters,
                      > > although the GM may want to use the guidelines for cooperation with a group
                      > > of henchmen (see Combining Abilities p. 57)
                      > >
                      > > A dead or unconscious henchmen can only be replaced between scenes. If two
                      > > or more henchmen die or are knocked unconscious in the same scene, roll
                      > > a(n) Intellect or Willpower test against your power level to determine if
                      > > your henchmen stick around or flee. If you are knocked out or killed, all
                      > > your henchmen scatter and run away.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > (Notes: I was attempting to follow the limitations inherent in Wizardry by
                      > > tying the power to an ability, especially since any henchmen can
                      > > effectively have any power. I broke it up to the player's choice of
                      > > intellect or willpower because I was thinking of things like
                      > > robots/zombies/other lesser-thinking creations for intellect, or
                      > > thugs/ninjas/Bond-villain-henchmen for willpower. There might be a case to
                      > > be made for Strength and clans/barbarians/aliens/etc that value might over
                      > > intelligence or willpower, but I think that's a fairly weak assumption and
                      > > one that doesn't really hold up well over time. Most of the "might/right"
                      > > people are also smart or charismatic.)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...

                      > > > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> I think you could use it as a model for creating a "Henchmen" power, if
                      > >> nothing else.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>> **

                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Oh, hey, yeah, that would work very well for some kinds of henchmen.
                      > >>> Thanks. :)
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Maybe trickier for robots, demons, etc., but still, a starting place I
                      > >>> wasn't thinking of!
                      > >>>
                      > >>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Cameron Mount <
                      > >>> cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                      > >>>
                      > >>>> **

                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas
                      > >>>> and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and
                      > >>>> started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and
                      > >>>> then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a
                      > >>>> 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the
                      > >>>> closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent
                      > >>>> power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen
                      > >>>> weren't actually identical.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>> **

                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
                      > >>>>> soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
                      > >>>>> answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
                      > >>>>> to get the essence of the mastermind down.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
                      > >>>>> a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
                      > >>>>> might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
                      > >>>>> someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
                      > >>>>> Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
                      > >>>>> set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
                      > >>>>> on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
                      > >>>>> they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
                      > >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
                      > >>>>> telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
                      > >>>>> trap laying. The bots do the damage.)
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
                      > >>>>> the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
                      > >>>>> fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
                      > >>>>> least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
                      > >>>>> to handle them well in ICONS.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
                      > >>>>> disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
                      > >>>>> durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
                      > >>>>> Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
                      > >>>>> overlooking?
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Regards,
                      > >>>>> Bruce
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      >




                      --
                      Twitter: www.twitter.com/fabfranco
                      Blog: Logomaquia
                      Blog: Ludo Sapiens

                    • stevekenson
                      ... Yeah, minions-as-a-power isn t one of those things ICONS does great. The rulebook touches upon it with Animation (p. 35) which is kind of a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                        On Nov 20, 2012, at 8:54 AM, Bruce wrote:
                        In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

                        Yeah, minions-as-a-power isn't one of those things ICONS does great. The rulebook touches upon it with Animation (p. 35) which is kind of a "Create-A-Minion" power. Versions of a Summoning power have shown up in supplements. This is one I'm playing around with:

                        SERVANT

                        Control. You can create or summon a creature to serve you. Your servant has Strength equal to your power level, total Prowess and Coordination equal to your power level, and Stamina equal to Strength. They have no mental abilities and only act to carry out your commands. You must concentrate to command your servant.

                        Generally, your servant has two powers equal to your power level: it can gain another by reducing Strength to 0. Common powers are offensive, defensive and movement.

                        The GM approves all servants and can veto any unsuitable concepts. Villains often have this power at a level off the scale (Icons, p. 5), able to call upon legions of servants or minions in a way unsuitable for heroes.


                        Stunts
                        • Enhanced: Your servant gains Prowess and Coordination equal to your power level, rather than dividing your power level between the two abilities.
                        • Extra Servant: You have two servants of the same type. Each time you add this stunt, you gain an extra servant.
                        • Sensory Link: You can perceive through the senses of your servant, seeing and hearing everything they do.
                        • Split: You can divide your power level amongst multiple servants; rather than summoning one at level 8, for example, you could summon four level 2 servants.
                        There's also the issue of handling large numbers of minions: should they be summed up as a "swarm" type or given individual tests? Certainly, it's better to handle a swarm of trained bees as one entity but a mob of mind-controlled people might be another thing.

                        _____
                        Steve Kenson
                        stevekenson@...
                        www.stevekenson.com





                      • Soylent Green
                        Ah yes. I had a Pistols/Thugs mastermind too. She was so much fun I soloed her all teh way to 50 without even noticing. Nothing quite prepares you for the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
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                          Ah yes. I had a Pistols/Thugs mastermind too. She was so much fun I soloed her all teh way to 50 without even noticing. Nothing quite prepares you for the thrill of seeing your brute arriving on a motorcycle for the first time!

                          As for converting this to Icons, I'd be tempted to take Plant Control as a model. I am not saying thugs are just vegetables, but in ICONS mechanics term they might as well be. To simulate the multiple minions effect I'd allow the player to select this power multiple times as a bonus power - each rolled individually and each time times its selected  counting towards the starting DP pool.
                           

                           

                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: cameron.a.mount@...
                          Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:02:00 -0500
                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Powerful minions/henchmen/etc for heroes

                           
                          I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.

                          My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

                          So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


                          On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                           
                          Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

                          One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
                          soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
                          answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
                          to get the essence of the mastermind down.

                          This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
                          a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
                          might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
                          someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
                          Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
                          set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
                          on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
                          they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

                          (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
                          telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
                          trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

                          Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
                          the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
                          fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
                          least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
                          to handle them well in ICONS.

                          There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
                          disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
                          durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
                          Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
                          overlooking?

                          Regards,
                          Bruce




                        • Cameron Mount
                          That s actually a really good idea, too.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            That's actually a really good idea, too.


                            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                             

                            Ah yes. I had a Pistols/Thugs mastermind too. She was so much fun I soloed her all teh way to 50 without even noticing. Nothing quite prepares you for the thrill of seeing your brute arriving on a motorcycle for the first time!

                            As for converting this to Icons, I'd be tempted to take Plant Control as a model. I am not saying thugs are just vegetables, but in ICONS mechanics term they might as well be. To simulate the multiple minions effect I'd allow the player to select this power multiple times as a bonus power - each rolled individually and each time times its selected  counting towards the starting DP pool.
                             

                             

                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            From: cameron.a.mount@...
                            Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:02:00 -0500
                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Powerful minions/henchmen/etc for heroes


                             
                            I also played CoH for a long time. I was in the closed and open betas and played for the first 13 months or so. Then I lapsed for a few years and started again with 6 months of subscription just before it went F2P, and then I played off and on until the announcement earlier this year.

                            My favorite Mastermind was a character I called Mr. Bowler. He was a 19th Century Victorian criminal with pistols and thugs, who were the closest to the visual aesthetic I wanted.

                            So, if I were to do him in ICONS, I'd look at Duplication as the parent power, but I would change the flavor slightly such that the henchmen weren't actually identical.


                            On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Bruce Baugh <bbaugh@...> wrote:
                             
                            Hello, all! The proverbial first-time post here...

                            One of the things I've been doing with ICONS is seeing how many of my
                            soon-to-be-lost City of Heroes characters I can model in it. The
                            answer is "a lot". But I'm a little stumped trying to figure out how
                            to get the essence of the mastermind down.

                            This is what's up with the CoH mastermind. In CoH, each character has
                            a primary power set and a secondary one. An awesomely agile shooter
                            might have Dual Pistols and Super Reflexes, for instance, while
                            someone with an intuitive bond to fundamental forces might have
                            Gravity Control and Time Manipulation. In general, the primary power
                            set is the heavy hitter, the thing that lets a character make her mark
                            on the world. In the case of masterminds, that's the kind of henchman
                            they summon - robots, or demons, or ninjas, and so on.

                            (Here's a short clip illustrating the point:
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYKqP2SzAa0 - the player is mostly
                            telling the bots who to target, and supporting with a little bit of
                            trap laying. The bots do the damage.)

                            Now I suppose one could take the shortcut of simply taking Blast and
                            the like and having robots or whatever minions purely as descriptive
                            fodder. But I never did like that. It feels like they should matter at
                            least as much as ice slides and the like. But I'm a bit at a loss how
                            to handle them well in ICONS.

                            There _are_ minion rules, of course, but those are for basically
                            disposable NPCs. This sort of henchman/companion is substantially more
                            durable. It could well be that working in a simple custom riff on
                            Animal Control would be the thing to do. Any other options I'm
                            overlooking?

                            Regards,
                            Bruce





                          • Bruce Baugh
                            Yeah, that definitely works as well, focusing on the effects that get delivered. How d you handle attacks aimed at the henchentities?
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 20, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yeah, that definitely works as well, focusing on the effects that get delivered. How'd you handle attacks aimed at the henchentities?

                              On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                               

                              Ah yes. I had a Pistols/Thugs mastermind too. She was so much fun I soloed her all teh way to 50 without even noticing. Nothing quite prepares you for the thrill of seeing your brute arriving on a motorcycle for the first time!

                              As for converting this to Icons, I'd be tempted to take Plant Control as a model. I am not saying thugs are just vegetables, but in ICONS mechanics term they might as well be. To simulate the multiple minions effect I'd allow the player to select this power multiple times as a bonus power - each rolled individually and each time times its selected  counting towards the starting DP pool.
                            • Soylent Green
                              With Plant Control I always just assumed that the plant-minions had Stamina points equal to the power s rank. Rereading the power I now realise that is not
                              Message 14 of 15 , Nov 21, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                With Plant Control I always just assumed that the plant-minions had Stamina points equal to the power's rank. Rereading the power I now realise that is not actually in the rules.  

                                That tends to happen a lot to me with ICONS, the boundary between the rules as written and my own interpretation and extrapolations tends to get pretty fuzzy. I've also deliberately made the same exact power work differently for different characters because that  is what made sense for that character.
                                 



                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                From: mrigashirsha@...
                                Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:26:52 -0800
                                Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Powerful minions/henchmen/etc for heroes

                                 
                                Yeah, that definitely works as well, focusing on the effects that get delivered. How'd you handle attacks aimed at the henchentities?


                                On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Ah yes. I had a Pistols/Thugs mastermind too. She was so much fun I soloed her all teh way to 50 without even noticing. Nothing quite prepares you for the thrill of seeing your brute arriving on a motorcycle for the first time!

                                As for converting this to Icons, I'd be tempted to take Plant Control as a model. I am not saying thugs are just vegetables, but in ICONS mechanics term they might as well be. To simulate the multiple minions effect I'd allow the player to select this power multiple times as a bonus power - each rolled individually and each time times its selected  counting towards the starting DP pool.

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