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Modeling multipowers

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  • Icosahedrophilia
    Dear friends, When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 9 10:37 AM
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      Dear friends,

      When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

      Chris Heard
      Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
      http://drchris.me/d20
      <><
    • Tim K.
      ... for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it? ... I imagine you d take the power with stunts
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 9 11:08 AM
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        On 8/9/2012 12:37 PM, Icosahedrophilia wrote:
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or
        for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?
        >

        I imagine you'd take the power with stunts or full powers. The reason
        being that just because you have one power at a time is not enough a
        limitation to get a discount. You'd make a challenge for that and it
        would be invoked to get DP, in play and you'd spend time "switching"
        powers. Otherwise you can switch fast enough that its not really a
        limitation.
      • John McMullen
        You wouldn t get a price break, but I d consider either using Wizardry or possibly Elemental Control, if the GM is kind. So, for instance, something like EC:
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 9 11:22 AM
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          You wouldn't get a price break, but I'd consider either using Wizardry or possibly Elemental Control, if the GM is kind. So, for instance, something like EC: Ability boost (Challenge: Only one power set at a time).
           
          To my mind, using the other ID power (what is it called, again?) would be more of a cheat ("Six guys who share the same brain but have one difference: Which ability Boost they have!")
           
          John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
          jhmcmullen@...

          From: Icosahedrophilia <d20@...>
          To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 1:37 PM
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Modeling multipowers

          Dear friends,

          When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

          Chris Heard
          Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
          http://drchris.me/d20
          <><

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        • Icosahedrophilia
          Alter Ego? That s the way I ve worked it so far. I m actually trying to model a guy with four faces, who has a different power set depending on which face is
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 9 11:24 AM
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            Alter Ego? That's the way I've worked it so far. I'm actually trying to model a guy with four faces, who has a different power set depending on which face is "forward."

            On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:22 AM, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
            To my mind, using the other ID power (what is it called, again?) would be more of a cheat ("Six guys who share the same brain but have one difference: Which ability Boost they have!")


            Chris Heard
            Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast

          • Cameron Mount
            Alter-ego. I considered making that as a suggestion, but it really seemed a bit too much like a cheat. I think, in general, that ICONS goes the opposite way
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 9 11:25 AM
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              Alter-ego. I considered making that as a suggestion, but it really seemed a bit too much like a cheat.

              I think, in general, that ICONS goes the opposite way from Champions and M&M. Because points-buy is the standard there, points-shaving becomes the system mastery element (much like feat and class selection is for D&D). Since points are allocated essentially flat across the board in ICONS, it seems to me that looking for ways to shave points in a build is looking at the game through the wrong lens.

              On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:22 PM, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
               

              You wouldn't get a price break, but I'd consider either using Wizardry or possibly Elemental Control, if the GM is kind. So, for instance, something like EC: Ability boost (Challenge: Only one power set at a time).
               
              To my mind, using the other ID power (what is it called, again?) would be more of a cheat ("Six guys who share the same brain but have one difference: Which ability Boost they have!")
               
              John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
              jhmcmullen@...

              From: Icosahedrophilia <d20@...>
              To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 1:37 PM
              Subject: [icons-rpg] Modeling multipowers

              Dear friends,

              When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

              Chris Heard
              Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
              http://drchris.me/d20
              <><

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            • Fabrício César Franco
              Alter-Ego would be a way to do it, if you re not looking for saving points. There s a DC villain, called Trinity, which has different powers according to which
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 9 11:27 AM
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                Alter-Ego would be a way to do it, if you're not looking for saving points. There's a DC villain, called Trinity, which has different powers according to which face she is wearing, too.  

                2012/8/9 Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...>
                 

                Alter-ego. I considered making that as a suggestion, but it really seemed a bit too much like a cheat.


                I think, in general, that ICONS goes the opposite way from Champions and M&M. Because points-buy is the standard there, points-shaving becomes the system mastery element (much like feat and class selection is for D&D). Since points are allocated essentially flat across the board in ICONS, it seems to me that looking for ways to shave points in a build is looking at the game through the wrong lens.


                On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 2:22 PM, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                 

                You wouldn't get a price break, but I'd consider either using Wizardry or possibly Elemental Control, if the GM is kind. So, for instance, something like EC: Ability boost (Challenge: Only one power set at a time).
                 
                To my mind, using the other ID power (what is it called, again?) would be more of a cheat ("Six guys who share the same brain but have one difference: Which ability Boost they have!")
                 
                John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                jhmcmullen@...

                From: Icosahedrophilia <d20@...>
                To: "icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com" <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 1:37 PM
                Subject: [icons-rpg] Modeling multipowers

                Dear friends,

                When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?

                Chris Heard
                Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                http://drchris.me/d20
                <><

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                .


              • Icosahedrophilia
                Points aren t really the issue so much as modeling the character in a way that s easily portable between GMs. For example, suppose I go to a con where I play
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 9 11:31 AM
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                  Points aren't really the issue so much as modeling the character in a way that's easily portable between GMs. For example, suppose I go to a con where I play in two different bring-your-own-hero ICONS games with two completely different GMs. I'd like for both GMs to be able to say "Yes" to the same character, even if one is a strict rules purist and the other is wide open. Okay, in reality, if I play ICONS at my local con, it's more likely that I'd be the GM. That notwithstanding, I'm just plain curious about how other folks would try this.

                  On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:25 AM, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                  > I think, in general, that ICONS goes the opposite way from Champions and M&M. Because points-buy is the standard there, points-shaving becomes the system mastery element (much like feat and class selection is for D&D). Since points are allocated essentially flat across the board in ICONS, it seems to me that looking for ways to shave points in a build is looking at the game through the wrong lens.


                  Chris Heard
                  Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                  http://drchris.me/d20
                • jaerdaph
                  I would just use a variant of Wizardry at the normal x2 power cost, but you could opt to select four powers rather than two in exchange for giving up the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 9 11:42 AM
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                    I would just use a variant of Wizardry at the normal x2 power cost, but you could opt to select four powers rather than two in exchange for giving up the ability to spend Determination to stunt other powers. You could still spend additional power slots to buy other bonus powers under Wizardry at character creation - remember, one of the benefits of Wizardry is that you can select powers - even powers that normally cost two power slots outside of Wizardry - for the cost of only one slot per power at character creation.

                    jaerdaph

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Icosahedrophilia <d20@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear friends,
                    >
                    > When I was in high school, I played a lot of Champions. As I recall, Champions had a Multipower structure, a container into which you could put multiple powers at reduced cost, with the limitation that the hero could only use one of those powers at a time. Vigilance Press patched ICONS with an Ultrapower power in one of the Field Guide to Superheroes installments (vol. 3, I think). Suppose, however, that you wanted to model a multipower using only the official ICONS rules, without third-party plug-ins. For example, suppose you wanted to have a hero who basically had all six flavors of Ability Boost, but could only use one at a time. What's the best way to do this within the rules as written? Wizardry with severe restrictions? Something else? Note: I'm not against hacking the system or using third-party plug-ins in principle, but if something can be done within the official system as written, that improves the character's "portability" across different campaigns/settings/groups, or for example for convention play. So, any thoughts on this? Has this been discussed before and I missed it?
                  • Icosahedrophilia
                    ... So would the following be the optimal way to use this technique? Let s call Trinity s faces A, B, and C. Trinity A has two instances of Alter-Ego (Trinity
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 9 11:46 AM
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                      On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                       

                      Alter-Ego would be a way to do it, if you're not looking for saving points. There's a DC villain, called Trinity, which has different powers according to which face she is wearing, too.

                      So would the following be the optimal way to use this technique? Let's call Trinity's faces A, B, and C. Trinity A has two instances of Alter-Ego (Trinity B and Trinity C, both of whom have one less power than Trinity A). Trinity A can change into Trinity B or Trinity C, but Trinity B can't change into Trinity C directly (nor the other way around); they have to go through Trinity A.

                      Another way to do it would be serial: Trinity A has n powers, of which one is Alter-Ego (Trinity B). Trinity B has n-1 powers, one of which is Alter-Ego (Trinity C). Trinity C has n-2 powers, and none of them are Alter-Ego. So Trinity A can change into B, B can revert to A or change to C, and C can revert to B.

                      This gets more complicated the more faces you add … erp!

                      Chris Heard
                      Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast

                    • Fabrício César Franco
                      I had the same problem when devising a way to portray Gestalt-powered characters... 2012/8/9 Icosahedrophilia ... I had the same problem when
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 9 11:52 AM
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                        I had the same problem when devising a way to portray Gestalt-powered characters...

                        2012/8/9 Icosahedrophilia <d20@...>
                         

                        On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                         

                        Alter-Ego would be a way to do it, if you're not looking for saving points. There's a DC villain, called Trinity, which has different powers according to which face she is wearing, too.

                        So would the following be the optimal way to use this technique? Let's call Trinity's faces A, B, and C. Trinity A has two instances of Alter-Ego (Trinity B and Trinity C, both of whom have one less power than Trinity A). Trinity A can change into Trinity B or Trinity C, but Trinity B can't change into Trinity C directly (nor the other way around); they have to go through Trinity A.

                        Another way to do it would be serial: Trinity A has n powers, of which one is Alter-Ego (Trinity B). Trinity B has n-1 powers, one of which is Alter-Ego (Trinity C). Trinity C has n-2 powers, and none of them are Alter-Ego. So Trinity A can change into B, B can revert to A or change to C, and C can revert to B.

                        This gets more complicated the more faces you add … erp!

                        Chris Heard
                        Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast

                        .
                      • John McMullen
                        Depends on what you re modeling, because there are really a couple of cases that Champions multipowers model (and M&M arrays can do the same thing).   The
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 9 12:09 PM
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                          Depends on what you're modeling, because there are really a couple of cases that Champions multipowers model (and M&M arrays can do the same thing).
                           
                          The first is the Ultraboy case, where you can have any of a set of powers, you just can't have them all at once. Because the powers are so well-defined and so limited, I'd probably use Wizardry and a limitation in this case. In this case, Jo has Wizardry and a set of powers (er, besides the ones from the flight ring) and the limitation "One At A Time, Switching Takes A Panel, Only Powers From List."
                           
                          The second is the case where you have a pool of points where you can assign them to any of the powers, but the sum of these abilities can't be higher than the size of the pool. (Ultra slots, in Champions terms.) Again, I'd probably use Wizardry and a limitation. She's got Wizardry 10, so the sum of powers that can be created with Wizardry is 10: she can have Flight 5, Force Field 3, Blast 2, or Flight 8, Force Field 2, Blast 0, or Flight 0, Force Field 3, Blast 7, or whatever.
                           
                          The third which I remember from Champions is where using multipowers to model split personality or divided characters: slot 1 is all the powers that apply to one personality, slot 2 is another personality, and so on. In that case,and if there were few personalities (three is probably the practical limit), I might try Alter Ego. The fact that each character has fewer powers and the switching is a big turn-off for me in this case, and having to go from personality C through A to get to B is also a problem.
                           
                          If the personality (and hence the Specialities and Aspects) don't change, there's really less reason to go for Alter Ego.
                           
                          (And I think point costs would matter a bit if it's a bring-your-own game, though I have no experience.)
                           
                          John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                          jhmcmullen@...

                          From: Icosahedrophilia <d20@...>
                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:46 PM
                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Modeling multipowers



                          On Aug 9, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Fabrício César Franco <fabfranco@...> wrote:
                           
                          Alter-Ego would be a way to do it, if you're not looking for saving points. There's a DC villain, called Trinity, which has different powers according to which face she is wearing, too.
                          So would the following be the optimal way to use this technique? Let's call Trinity's faces A, B, and C. Trinity A has two instances of Alter-Ego (Trinity B and Trinity C, both of whom have one less power than Trinity A). Trinity A can change into Trinity B or Trinity C, but Trinity B can't change into Trinity C directly (nor the other way around); they have to go through Trinity A.

                          Another way to do it would be serial: Trinity A has n powers, of which one is Alter-Ego (Trinity B). Trinity B has n-1 powers, one of which is Alter-Ego (Trinity C). Trinity C has n-2 powers, and none of them are Alter-Ego. So Trinity A can change into B, B can revert to A or change to C, and C can revert to B.

                          This gets more complicated the more faces you add … erp!

                          Chris Heard
                          Icosahedrophilia Blog and Podcast
                          http://drchris.me/d20





                        • Fabrício César Franco
                          I have converted Ultra-Boy, from Legion of Super Heroes, in my blog, if you all want to take a look: http://eidolonicon.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/ultra-boy.html
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 9 5:43 PM
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                            I have converted Ultra-Boy, from Legion of Super Heroes, in my blog, if you all want to take a look:  http://eidolonicon.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/ultra-boy.html 

                            Fabrício
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