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Re: The Ultimate Power In The Universe...

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  • Colin T
    ... I ve been wondering about this, then i thought wouldn t its limitation be inherent? For example the Parasite in dc when using this on normal people would
    Message 1 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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      > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other weaknesses.

      > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch' the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this is the most powerful Icons power.
      >
      > Any other thoughts on this?

      I've been wondering about this, then i thought wouldn't its limitation be inherent?

      For example the Parasite in dc when using this on normal people would kill them whilst on superman it merely allows him to absorb his abilities for a short time before needing to recharge.

      Smallville showed how this could be used very badly when the Parasite in that series stole his abilities and had to be forced to return them which to me made little sense.

      My view on Power Theft is that it has to stay in keeping with the campaign background.

      If it was derived from science why would it work on the mystically powered or aliens for that matter?

      If its magic in origin, why would it work against technology?

      I believe some ideas involved magic and technology being opposed to each other so where technology was rampant, magic was weakest and vice versa.

      If it steals powers why would it work on someone who has no powers except for exceptional attributes?

      Does the power user swap minds with the hero and do they automatically gain full knowledge of what powers and abilities their target possesses even if they made no effort to discover beforehand?

      There are so many questions involved in both this and power duplication that you could easily have one listed as an aspect if its presence troubles you and you want to avoid it breaking your game.

      To me the most powerful power in the game isn't any listed power its the player who plays that character which is how it should be when people talk about Batman it highlights that the most dangerous member of the Justice League doesn't have powers... he simply doesn't give up.

      So yes I can see Wizardry being a problem but thats why Batman often has his utility belt taken away when he's captured after all... aspects everywhere and often all it takes is a line to explain it!

      Simply incredible... so any update on the Team up release?
    • Fabrício César Franco
      Colin, Totally agreed. You have several points there we could use as food for thought. Thanks! Fabrício Franco 2012/5/10 Colin T ...
      Message 2 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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        Colin,

        Totally agreed. You have several points there we could use as food for thought. Thanks!

        Fabrício Franco

        2012/5/10 Colin T <colinfit20@...>
         

        > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other weaknesses.

        > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch' the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this is the most powerful Icons power.
        >
        > Any other thoughts on this?

        I've been wondering about this, then i thought wouldn't its limitation be inherent?

        For example the Parasite in dc when using this on normal people would kill them whilst on superman it merely allows him to absorb his abilities for a short time before needing to recharge.

        Smallville showed how this could be used very badly when the Parasite in that series stole his abilities and had to be forced to return them which to me made little sense.

        My view on Power Theft is that it has to stay in keeping with the campaign background.

        If it was derived from science why would it work on the mystically powered or aliens for that matter?

        If its magic in origin, why would it work against technology?

        I believe some ideas involved magic and technology being opposed to each other so where technology was rampant, magic was weakest and vice versa.

        If it steals powers why would it work on someone who has no powers except for exceptional attributes?

        Does the power user swap minds with the hero and do they automatically gain full knowledge of what powers and abilities their target possesses even if they made no effort to discover beforehand?

        There are so many questions involved in both this and power duplication that you could easily have one listed as an aspect if its presence troubles you and you want to avoid it breaking your game.

        To me the most powerful power in the game isn't any listed power its the player who plays that character which is how it should be when people talk about Batman it highlights that the most dangerous member of the Justice League doesn't have powers... he simply doesn't give up.

        So yes I can see Wizardry being a problem but thats why Batman often has his utility belt taken away when he's captured after all... aspects everywhere and often all it takes is a line to explain it!

      • Paul
        There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it
        Message 3 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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          "There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge."

          Our player randomly rolled power theft and spent his last power to get the extend range. He also rolled a high Coordination (how's that for randomness). At least with power duplication the hero and villain can still go at it even with the same power. With power theft, extend range, this hero just has to sit back and absorb everybody's power making them useless in a fight. A bit of a challenge to plan encounters.

          Since we rotate GMs it was never planning on a specific campaign vision with all players and GMs contributing (which has been working out pretty well) so limits on Power Theft were never a thought until it came into game play - first character, first session.

          BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM spending DP on the villain's dodge means.


          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge. But yeah, I see you point.
          > I still find Power Theft less of a problem than Power Duplication. The trouble with Power Duplication is that it can potentially steal other player's thunder. If Bob's signature power can be used just effectively by Fred (or more effectively if Fred also has better stats) it's no longer a signature power, no longer iconic.
          > On the same lines I Duplication, as written bothers me. The issue for isn't so much that it having power level number of copies of your character is overpowered (though it can be), it's the amount of screen time it takes from the other players as the one player in effect get's several moves. At the very least I feel the number of copies should be limited to the same ratio as Fast Attack or rule that copies always go at the end of the page, after all heroes and villains have acted.
          >
          >
          >
          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          > From: blissinfinite67@...
          > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:32:05 +0000
          > Subject: [icons-rpg] The Ultimate Power In The Universe...
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          > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other weaknesses.
          >
          >
          >
          > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch' the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this is the most powerful Icons power.
          >
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          > Any other thoughts on this?
          >
        • Cameron Mount
          The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a Determination Point.
          Message 4 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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            The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a Determination Point.

            On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Paul <blissinfinite67@...> wrote:
             


            "There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge."

            Our player randomly rolled power theft and spent his last power to get the extend range. He also rolled a high Coordination (how's that for randomness). At least with power duplication the hero and villain can still go at it even with the same power. With power theft, extend range, this hero just has to sit back and absorb everybody's power making them useless in a fight. A bit of a challenge to plan encounters.

            Since we rotate GMs it was never planning on a specific campaign vision with all players and GMs contributing (which has been working out pretty well) so limits on Power Theft were never a thought until it came into game play - first character, first session.

            BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM spending DP on the villain's dodge means.

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge. But yeah, I see you point.
            > I still find Power Theft less of a problem than Power Duplication. The trouble with Power Duplication is that it can potentially steal other player's thunder. If Bob's signature power can be used just effectively by Fred (or more effectively if Fred also has better stats) it's no longer a signature power, no longer iconic.
            > On the same lines I Duplication, as written bothers me. The issue for isn't so much that it having power level number of copies of your character is overpowered (though it can be), it's the amount of screen time it takes from the other players as the one player in effect get's several moves. At the very least I feel the number of copies should be limited to the same ratio as Fast Attack or rule that copies always go at the end of the page, after all heroes and villains have acted.
            >
            >
            >
            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            > From: blissinfinite67@...
            > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:32:05 +0000
            > Subject: [icons-rpg] The Ultimate Power In The Universe...
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            > ....well at least in Icons.
            >
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            > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other weaknesses.
            >
            >
            >
            > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch' the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this is the most powerful Icons power.
            >
            >
            >
            > Any other thoughts on this?
            >


          • Paul
            Ouch! Harsh but I like it!
            Message 5 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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              Ouch! Harsh but I like it!

              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
              >
              > The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a
              > Determination Point.
              >
              > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Paul <blissinfinite67@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > "There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out
              > > though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices
              > > and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM
              > > can always spend DP on the villains dodge."
              > >
              > > Our player randomly rolled power theft and spent his last power to get the
              > > extend range. He also rolled a high Coordination (how's that for
              > > randomness). At least with power duplication the hero and villain can still
              > > go at it even with the same power. With power theft, extend range, this
              > > hero just has to sit back and absorb everybody's power making them useless
              > > in a fight. A bit of a challenge to plan encounters.
              > >
              > > Since we rotate GMs it was never planning on a specific campaign vision
              > > with all players and GMs contributing (which has been working out pretty
              > > well) so limits on Power Theft were never a thought until it came into game
              > > play - first character, first session.
              > >
              > > BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM
              > > spending DP on the villain's dodge means.
              > >
              > > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out
              > > though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices
              > > and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM
              > > can always spend DP on the villains dodge. But yeah, I see you point.
              > > > I still find Power Theft less of a problem than Power Duplication. The
              > > trouble with Power Duplication is that it can potentially steal other
              > > player's thunder. If Bob's signature power can be used just effectively by
              > > Fred (or more effectively if Fred also has better stats) it's no longer a
              > > signature power, no longer iconic.
              > > > On the same lines I Duplication, as written bothers me. The issue for
              > > isn't so much that it having power level number of copies of your character
              > > is overpowered (though it can be), it's the amount of screen time it takes
              > > from the other players as the one player in effect get's several moves. At
              > > the very least I feel the number of copies should be limited to the same
              > > ratio as Fast Attack or rule that copies always go at the end of the page,
              > > after all heroes and villains have acted.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > > > From: blissinfinite67@
              > > > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:32:05 +0000
              > > > Subject: [icons-rpg] The Ultimate Power In The Universe...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
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              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ....well at least in Icons.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think
              > > it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any
              > > listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does
              > > have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other
              > > weaknesses.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all
              > > is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's
              > > power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving
              > > your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch'
              > > the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can
              > > one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this
              > > is the most powerful Icons power.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Any other thoughts on this?
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • John McMullen
              I agree. Some times you have to be cruel to be kind....   More seriously, the DP mechanic is intended to mitigate (at least somewhat) the Power Power uber
              Message 6 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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                I agree. Some times you have to be cruel to be kind....
                 
                More seriously, the DP mechanic is intended to mitigate (at least somewhat) the Power Power uber alles thing that can happen. (Because with random roll, it will eventually happen. One of my players has material duplication, which was fine until he realized that light was hitting him almost all the time--so he can frequently escape by turning into a light beam.)
                 
                If the Power Thief takes another hero's power, that hero gets a DP (and I'd think about it being from the Power Thief's stash). If some other player is inconvenienced because of the Power Thief's actions, well, that player gets a DP but the Power Thief doesn't. Pretty soon, the only source of DP that the Power Thief has is from the GM paying them to let the villains retcon things. (Or, in game, the other heroes say, "Hey, great, you got it. You handle the Chitauri invasion of earth. I'm gonna go deal with this other thing here, okay?")
                 
                In M&M, the powers have descriptors that act as aspects: they add and subtract minor abilities. I've always assumed that the powers in ICONS have the same: unless it's specifically mentioned, mystic metapowers affect mystic powers, scientific metapowers affect scientific metapowers, and guys without powers have nothing to be drained. (Metapowers being things like power theft or power duplication.)
                 
                As Cameron has said, why should a Power Theft ability that is defined as magically moving an ability affect a gun, unless the player has set it up that way? Or something that is defined as "copying the morphogenetic field" affect a magic gem?
                 
                Side project and unrelated (alluded to in that post I sent by accident): I'm thinking of things to think about when converting the new Marvel game to ICONS and vice versa. Some of the things are quite similar, some are quite different, so you'll always have to reimagine the character in that game's terms, but contact me offlist if you have ideas. What strikes me as interesting about That Other Game is the story mechanisms, and how they might be adapted to ICONS.
                 
                John
                John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                jhmcmullen@...

                From: Paul <blissinfinite67@...>
                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 12:02 PM
                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: The Ultimate Power In The Universe...

                Ouch!  Harsh but I like it!

                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
                >
                > The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a
                > Determination Point.
                >
                > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Paul <blissinfinite67@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > "There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out
                > > though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices
                > > and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM
                > > can always spend DP on the villains dodge."
                > >
                > > Our player randomly rolled power theft and spent his last power to get the
                > > extend range. He also rolled a high Coordination (how's that for
                > > randomness). At least with power duplication the hero and villain can still
                > > go at it even with the same power. With power theft, extend range, this
                > > hero just has to sit back and absorb everybody's power making them useless
                > > in a fight. A bit of a challenge to plan encounters.
                > >
                > > Since we rotate GMs it was never planning on a specific campaign vision
                > > with all players and GMs contributing (which has been working out pretty
                > > well) so limits on Power Theft were never a thought until it came into game
                > > play - first character, first session.
                > >
                > > BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM
                > > spending DP on the villain's dodge means.
                > >
                > > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out
                > > though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices
                > > and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM
                > > can always spend DP on the villains dodge. But yeah, I see you point.
                > > > I still find Power Theft less of a problem than Power Duplication. The
                > > trouble with Power Duplication is that it can potentially steal other
                > > player's thunder. If Bob's signature power can be used just effectively by
                > > Fred (or more effectively if Fred also has better stats) it's no longer a
                > > signature power, no longer iconic.
                > > > On the same lines I Duplication, as written bothers me. The issue for
                > > isn't so much that it having power level number of copies of your character
                > > is overpowered (though it can be), it's the amount of screen time it takes
                > > from the other players as the one player in effect get's several moves. At
                > > the very least I feel the number of copies should be limited to the same
                > > ratio as Fast Attack or rule that copies always go at the end of the page,
                > > after all heroes and villains have acted.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                > > > From: blissinfinite67@
                > > > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:32:05 +0000
                > > > Subject: [icons-rpg] The Ultimate Power In The Universe...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ....well at least in Icons.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think
                > > it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any
                > > listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does
                > > have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other
                > > weaknesses.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all
                > > is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's
                > > power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving
                > > your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch'
                > > the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can
                > > one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this
                > > is the most powerful Icons power.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Any other thoughts on this?
                > > >
                > >
                > > 
                > >
                >




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              • Soylent Green
                Yes in principle, though my understanding is that villains still are tied to the normal Determination rules. As such the GM could declares a Determined Effort
                Message 7 of 11 , May 10, 2012
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                  Yes in principle, though my understanding is that villains still are tied to the normal Determination rules. As such the GM could declares a Determined Effort for the villains dodge. The player would then roll his attack and the GM pays the difference to the player in DPs to turn his roll into a fail at the normal rate of 1DP for every 2 points.

                  The GM also needs to invoke one of the NPC's Aspect to do this so it's always going to be possible. And while it's not necessarily clear from the rules my take is that this Aspect should be revealed to the players, which means they may be able to use it against the NPC at some stage.

                  I say all this but in practice I'm really bad at spending DP on behalf of NPCs both in Icons and Fate games in general. I guess  I am always secretly rooting for the player characters, but I really need to get better at this. 



                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                  From: cameron.a.mount@...
                  Date: Thu, 10 May 2012 11:53:09 -0400
                  Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: The Ultimate Power In The Universe...

                   
                  The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a Determination Point.


                  On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Paul <blissinfinite67@...> wrote:
                   

                  "There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge."

                  Our player randomly rolled power theft and spent his last power to get the extend range. He also rolled a high Coordination (how's that for randomness). At least with power duplication the hero and villain can still go at it even with the same power. With power theft, extend range, this hero just has to sit back and absorb everybody's power making them useless in a fight. A bit of a challenge to plan encounters.

                  Since we rotate GMs it was never planning on a specific campaign vision with all players and GMs contributing (which has been working out pretty well) so limits on Power Theft were never a thought until it came into game play - first character, first session.

                  BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM spending DP on the villain's dodge means.

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > There is no question Power Theft is very powerful. I would point out though that to get the extended range version counts as three power choices and it requires a ranged Coordination roll to succeed, which means the GM can always spend DP on the villains dodge. But yeah, I see you point.
                  > I still find Power Theft less of a problem than Power Duplication. The trouble with Power Duplication is that it can potentially steal other player's thunder. If Bob's signature power can be used just effectively by Fred (or more effectively if Fred also has better stats) it's no longer a signature power, no longer iconic.
                  > On the same lines I Duplication, as written bothers me. The issue for isn't so much that it having power level number of copies of your character is overpowered (though it can be), it's the amount of screen time it takes from the other players as the one player in effect get's several moves. At the very least I feel the number of copies should be limited to the same ratio as Fast Attack or rule that copies always go at the end of the page, after all heroes and villains have acted.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: blissinfinite67@...
                  > Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 22:32:05 +0000
                  > Subject: [icons-rpg] The Ultimate Power In The Universe...
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                  > ....well at least in Icons.
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                  > A lot of folks tend to be confused about the Wizardry power and think it's too powerful. On one hand it is, being able to potentially use any listed power as a stunt beyond the two basic powers you select but it does have it's limitations in terms of gadgets, gestures/spoken word or other weaknesses.
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                  > From our gaming experience the power that seems to be the be-all-end-all is Power Theft with extended range. This lets the hero steal the opponent's power (for 10 times your power theft level in page - a long time) leaving your opponent powerless. With extended range you don't even have to 'touch' the target, you just absorb the power. Of course you can house rule it; can one absorb a gadget produced power for example, but as written, I feel this is the most powerful Icons power.
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                  > Any other thoughts on this?
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                • Colin T
                  ... I d add a little something more to explain what is going on or even less if its intended to provide the player with something interesting to follow up on
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 11, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
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                    > Yes in principle, though my understanding is that villains still are tied to the normal Determination rules. As such the GM could declares a Determined Effort for the villains dodge. The player would then roll his attack and the GM pays the difference to the player in DPs to turn his roll into a fail at the normal rate of 1DP for every 2 points.
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                    > The GM also needs to invoke one of the NPC's Aspect to do this so it's always going to be possible. And while it's not necessarily clear from the rules my take is that this Aspect should be revealed to the players, which means they may be able to use it against the NPC at some stage.
                    > I say all this but in practice I'm really bad at spending DP on behalf of NPCs both in Icons and Fate games in general. I guess I am always secretly rooting for the player characters, but I really need to get better at this.
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                    > The GM just declares the the villain dodges and rewards the player with a Determination Point.

                    > BTW, for the life of me I can't figure out what you meat by the GM spending DP on the villain's dodge means.

                    I'd add a little something more to explain what is going on or even less if its intended to provide the player with something interesting to follow up on especially if its key to the campaign that they have a reason to want to continue playing rather than rely on the same tactic in every fight or encounter because eventually that will fail whether because its used against someone whose prepared for it or it just doesn't work against them.

                    For example they face a doctor doom like foe and the power thief finds his power doesn't work, however they don't gain the dp until after he discovers they're fighting a doombot rather than the actual villain in person.

                    Then trying to use the power on what turns out to be an illusion of his foe which he won't discover until after the ruse is discovered but would they get a dp in this situation?
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