Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers

Expand Messages
  • John McMullen
    Obviously, part of it is up to the GM. ICONS is a loosely-defined game. However, I have some questions about your questions.   Illusions: Why without rolling?
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 5, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Obviously, part of it is up to the GM. ICONS is a loosely-defined game. However, I have some questions about your questions.
       
      Illusions: Why without rolling? As I understand it, you have to roll Willpower vs. Willpower for the illusion to work, sure. And I think the damage would be limited by the effect level of the power: If you have Illusion 2, you aren't going to create the (illusory) damage of a falling mountain. The Stun roll has to be made against the strength or power level of the illusory character or the level of Illusions, whichever is less. (It seems to me, anyway.)
       
      Air Mastery: I suspect it depends on the goal. If you want to slam a guy against a wall, I'd call that attacking. If you want winds to move you and three friends to another place, that's Movement. If you're in a sealed compartment where there can't be any chance of moving air, well, that's Creating, right? Moving air so that the opponent has a vacuum--I might call that attacking or movement, depending on the target, but I think it really is a stunt: normally, you're not trying to clear the volume behind the wind, right? That might be my reasoning, but others could differ. I think I need a bit more of an example of areas where you were confused.
       
      Animal Control/Growth:  I might fall back on effect results for this one. He's got Animal Control *and* Alteration Ray (Empowerment) or something? Because that's the power that alters the controlled animals. I'd probably look at his power list and call for a stunt any time it seemed like he was going outside the powers.
       
      I know that doesn't help in defining what the limits of the powers are, but you do eventually get to an area where the effect clearly falls under the shadow of another power, at which point it becomes a stunt.
       
      For numbers of animals, I would probably make a decision like, he can control as many animals as he could lift if his Animal Control were strength. That lets him control swarms of insects, but only a few grizzly bears. The alternative is that for non-insects, you can control as many animals as your level of Animal Control: Animal Control 6 lets you control 6 whales, or 6 swarms of bees (and split one swarm into two swarms, it uses up 2 of your Animal Control pool, because you're issuing 2 sets of commands).
       
      But I don't know your exact circumstances, so I don't know what ruling would lead to maximum fun.
       
      One of the things I had a certain amount of mental trouble with was letting people do cool things with their powers. I wanted it all nailed down, but it seems to be more fun for the players if that's not the case. One of my players has ESP 6. Essentially, I let him know *anything* in a certain range if he says he's looking. (There are some areas shielded to ESP in the game, but the character essentially grew up not knowing there was such a thing as privacy, only things undiscovered until now.) Although it torpedoes me on occasion, I generally let them get away with stuff if they have a power or an aspect that covers it, though if I have doubts I charge them a Determination Point. That seems to work. Sometimes they want to hoard their DPs for the end.
       
      Hope that helps a bit.
       
      John
      John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
      jhmcmullen@...

      From: tom_pleasant <tom_pleasant@...>
      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 12:54 PM
      Subject: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers



      I'm starting up a troup GM mini Icons campaign with some friends and we ran through an opening session at the weekend. We immediately ran into problems with the power rules. Just wondering whether anyone can help.

      Illusion
      This character soon learnt that he could summon just about anything that was reasonably likely and without rolling knock NPCs unconscious. For example, he started out by creating the illusion of a gun and shooting someone with it. This escalated however until at the end of the adventure he created the illusion of a leading superhero flying in and hitting the NPC. Again, in the situation it wasn't unreasonable.

      Air Mastery
      The elemental mastery power created problems when a character focusing on air control tried to work out what he could and couldn't do. Attacking, Shaping, Moving – they all seemed fairly obvious ways to create a strong gust of air but which should be primary. In addition the character stumbled with the stunt when he wanted to create a vacuum around an NPC's head. At what point does something constitute a stunt and when doesn't it? Where are the limits to your powers?

      Animal Control/Growth
      The final character wants to be a normal human who can control animals andthen change them, such as summoning beetles to cover his body and bestowing invulnerability on them so they act as a carapaced power armour or growing his dog to huge sizes and having it attack the NPCs. The problem arose when we tried to work out how many animals he could control at once and whether he could keep making them giant.

      There were other problems but these were by far the problem areas.

      Considering we were after something light, simple and fun to play around our main game the whole session was very frustrating and it looks like the entire campaign will be either gutted of Icons or discarded unless we can sort this out.

      Any suggestions/guidance?

      Tom




    • John McMullen
      An alternate thing on Illusion is that you might declare, as a house rule, that the maximum damage over several hits he can do to someone with an illusion is
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 5, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        An alternate thing on Illusion is that you might declare, as a house rule, that the maximum damage over several hits he can do to someone with an illusion is his Willpower. He might still get a Stun result, but without that, he can't probably can't knock someone down to zero. (Okay, if he's got a great Willpower, he might.)
         
        John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
        jhmcmullen@...

        From: tom_pleasant <tom_pleasant@...>
        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 12:54 PM
        Subject: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers



        I'm starting up a troup GM mini Icons campaign with some friends and we ran through an opening session at the weekend. We immediately ran into problems with the power rules. Just wondering whether anyone can help.

        Illusion
        This character soon learnt that he could summon just about anything that was reasonably likely and without rolling knock NPCs unconscious. For example, he started out by creating the illusion of a gun and shooting someone with it. This escalated however until at the end of the adventure he created the illusion of a leading superhero flying in and hitting the NPC. Again, in the situation it wasn't unreasonable.

        Air Mastery
        The elemental mastery power created problems when a character focusing on air control tried to work out what he could and couldn't do. Attacking, Shaping, Moving – they all seemed fairly obvious ways to create a strong gust of air but which should be primary. In addition the character stumbled with the stunt when he wanted to create a vacuum around an NPC's head. At what point does something constitute a stunt and when doesn't it? Where are the limits to your powers?

        Animal Control/Growth
        The final character wants to be a normal human who can control animals andthen change them, such as summoning beetles to cover his body and bestowing invulnerability on them so they act as a carapaced power armour or growing his dog to huge sizes and having it attack the NPCs. The problem arose when we tried to work out how many animals he could control at once and whether he could keep making them giant.

        There were other problems but these were by far the problem areas.

        Considering we were after something light, simple and fun to play around our main game the whole session was very frustrating and it looks like the entire campaign will be either gutted of Icons or discarded unless we can sort this out.

        Any suggestions/guidance?

        Tom




      • Soylent Green
        I agree with John, damage from illusions should be limited it s power rank. Also any attack should provoke a fresh chance to disbelieve. Don t forget GMs can
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 5, 2012
        • 0 Attachment

          I agree with John, damage from illusions should be limited it's power rank. Also any attack should provoke a fresh chance to disbelieve. Don't forget GMs can spend Determination Points too.

           

          Creating a vacuum with Air Control is clearly a Stunt in my mind. Don't think about it in terms of real world physics - if air removed around the NPC he will suffocate - but in terms of effects. The closest power I can think of that approximates suffocation is Affliction. So basically think of it as Stunting Air Control for Affliction. And regardless of how the players describes the attack, the effect is still going to be power's rank.

           

          Same for the beetle armour example. If doesn't really matter how many or what variety of beetles he summons,  if he is trying to make a carapace he is trying to duplicate the Invulnerability Power using Animal Control - that's a Stunt. It will cost a DP to pull off and will endow him Invulnerability up to the level of his Animal Control power rank.

           

          And that principle applies to all sorts of situations. If the what the players describes does not fit neatly under the most vanilla interpretation of the power, just think of power the effect does resemble at treat is as Stunt.



          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: tom_pleasant@...
          Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:54:53 +0000
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers

           
          I'm starting up a troup GM mini Icons campaign with some friends and we ran through an opening session at the weekend. We immediately ran into problems with the power rules. Just wondering whether anyone can help.

          Illusion
          This character soon learnt that he could summon just about anything that was reasonably likely and without rolling knock NPCs unconscious. For example, he started out by creating the illusion of a gun and shooting someone with it. This escalated however until at the end of the adventure he created the illusion of a leading superhero flying in and hitting the NPC. Again, in the situation it wasn't unreasonable.

          Air Mastery
          The elemental mastery power created problems when a character focusing on air control tried to work out what he could and couldn't do. Attacking, Shaping, Moving – they all seemed fairly obvious ways to create a strong gust of air but which should be primary. In addition the character stumbled with the stunt when he wanted to create a vacuum around an NPC's head. At what point does something constitute a stunt and when doesn't it? Where are the limits to your powers?

          Animal Control/Growth
          The final character wants to be a normal human who can control animals andthen change them, such as summoning beetles to cover his body and bestowing invulnerability on them so they act as a carapaced power armour or growing his dog to huge sizes and having it attack the NPCs. The problem arose when we tried to work out how many animals he could control at once and whether he could keep making them giant.

          There were other problems but these were by far the problem areas.

          Considering we were after something light, simple and fun to play around our main game the whole session was very frustrating and it looks like the entire campaign will be either gutted of Icons or discarded unless we can sort this out.

          Any suggestions/guidance?

          Tom

        • John McMullen
          Said much better than my attempt. :) John McMullen (Searching for a .sig) jhmcmullen@yahoo.com ________________________________ From: Soylent Green
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Said much better than my attempt. :)
             
            John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
            jhmcmullen@...

            From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
            To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 3:04 PM
            Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers



            I agree with John, damage from illusions should be limited it's power rank. Also any attack should provoke a fresh chance to disbelieve. Don't forget GMs can spend Determination Points too.
             
            Creating a vacuum with Air Control is clearly a Stunt in my mind. Don't think about it in terms of real world physics - if air removed around the NPC he will suffocate - but in terms of effects. The closest power I can think of that approximates suffocation is Affliction. So basically think of it as Stunting Air Control for Affliction. And regardless of how the players describes the attack, the effect is still going to be power's rank.
             
            Same for the beetle armour example. If doesn't really matter how many or what variety of beetles he summons,  if he is trying to make a carapace he is trying to duplicate the Invulnerability Power using Animal Control - that's a Stunt. It will cost a DP to pull off and will endow him Invulnerability up to the level of his Animal Control power rank.
             
            And that principle applies to all sorts of situations. If the what the players describes does not fit neatly under the most vanilla interpretation of the power, just think of power the effect does resemble at treat is as Stunt.

            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: tom_pleasant@...
            Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:54:53 +0000
            Subject: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers

             
            I'm starting up a troup GM mini Icons campaign with some friends and we ran through an opening session at the weekend. We immediately ran into problems with the power rules. Just wondering whether anyone can help.

            Illusion
            This character soon learnt that he could summon just about anything that was reasonably likely and without rolling knock NPCs unconscious. For example, he started out by creating the illusion of a gun and shooting someone with it. This escalated however until at the end of the adventure he created the illusion of a leading superhero flying in and hitting the NPC. Again, in the situation it wasn't unreasonable.

            Air Mastery
            The elemental mastery power created problems when a character focusing on air control tried to work out what he could and couldn't do. Attacking, Shaping, Moving – they all seemed fairly obvious ways to create a strong gust of air but which should be primary. In addition the character stumbled with the stunt when he wanted to create a vacuum around an NPC's head. At what point does something constitute a stunt and when doesn't it? Where are the limits to your powers?

            Animal Control/Growth
            The final character wants to be a normal human who can control animals andthen change them, such as summoning beetles to cover his body and bestowing invulnerability on them so they act as a carapaced power armour or growing his dog to huge sizes and having it attack the NPCs. The problem arose when we tried to work out how many animals he could control at once and whether he could keep making them giant.

            There were other problems but these were by far the problem areas.

            Considering we were after something light, simple and fun to play around our main game the whole session was very frustrating and it looks like the entire campaign will be either gutted of Icons or discarded unless we can sort this out.

            Any suggestions/guidance?

            Tom





          • Seamus
            Here are some of my thoughts on the matter: Illusion:It probably also bears mentioning that any attempt to attack with an Illusion requires a new roll to
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

              Illusion:It probably also bears mentioning that any attempt to attack with an Illusion requires a new roll to disbelieve. Imagine getting shot with an illusory gun. If somebody tries to shoot you again, you might subconsciously realize that the last shot didn't injure you nearly as much as you'd expect which means you might begin to suspect you're not really being shot at. Any time an Illusion attacks should fall under "reason to disbelieve them" from the rules.

              Air Control: What this player wants to do seems like something that should be discussed when the power is chosen during chargen. You get to choose two effects. If the player wants to be able to create vacuums, I would say he had to choose Attacking and Shaping as initial effects (Attacking to give the power some Offensive flavor, and Shaping to form an airtight bubble around the baddy's head/breathing organs. Once that's done, using the ability in that way really does play out like a Stunt. On p. 80, it even describes doing a similar thing with Force Field. After that, you can follow the rules to make a Stunt a permanent thing.

              Animal Control/Growth: Yeah, this sounds like a use of Alteration Ray. The hero uses Animal Control to summon/control animals, then uses Alteration Ray to either grow the target animal or to increase its density. Growing the dog happens straight-up, but I'd probably ask for a Stunt to create beetle armor. One swarm of beetles is probably enough to form a suit of beetles, and I agree that the number of controlled animals depends on your power level, so you could have a beetle armored hero with a giant attack dog assuming the dice are being helpful on the stunt.

              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, John McMullen <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
              >
              > Said much better than my attempt. :)
              >
              >
              > John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
              > jhmcmullen@...
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
              > To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 3:04 PM
              > Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I agree with John, damage from illusions should be limited it's power rank. Also any attack should provoke a fresh chance to disbelieve. Don't forget GMs can spend Determination Points too.
              >  
              > Creating a vacuum with Air Control is clearly a Stunt in my mind. Don't think about it in terms of real world physics - if air removed around the NPC he will suffocate - but in terms of effects. The closest power I can think of that approximates suffocation is Affliction. So basically think of it as Stunting Air Control for Affliction. And regardless of how the players describes the attack, the effect is still going to be power's rank.
              >  
              > Same for the beetle armour example. If doesn't really matter how many or what variety of beetles he summons,  if he is trying to make a carapace he is trying to duplicate the Invulnerability Power using Animal Control - that's a Stunt. It will cost a DP to pull off and will endow him Invulnerability up to the level of his Animal Control power rank.
              >  
              > And that principle applies to all sorts of situations. If the what the players describes does not fit neatly under the most vanilla interpretation of the power, just think of power the effect does resemble at treat is as Stunt.
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > From: tom_pleasant@...
              > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 17:54:53 +0000
              > Subject: [icons-rpg] Problems with powers
              >
              >  
              > I'm starting up a troup GM mini Icons campaign with some friends and we ran through an opening session at the weekend. We immediately ran into problems with the power rules. Just wondering whether anyone can help.
              >
              > Illusion
              > This character soon learnt that he could summon just about anything that was reasonably likely and without rolling knock NPCs unconscious. For example, he started out by creating the illusion of a gun and shooting someone with it. This escalated however until at the end of the adventure he created the illusion of a leading superhero flying in and hitting the NPC. Again, in the situation it wasn't unreasonable.
              >
              > Air Mastery
              > The elemental mastery power created problems when a character focusing on air control tried to work out what he could and couldn't do. Attacking, Shaping, Moving â€" they all seemed fairly obvious ways to create a strong gust of air but which should be primary. In addition the character stumbled with the stunt when he wanted to create a vacuum around an NPC's head. At what point does something constitute a stunt and when doesn't it? Where are the limits to your powers?
              >
              > Animal Control/Growth
              > The final character wants to be a normal human who can control animals andthen change them, such as summoning beetles to cover his body and bestowing invulnerability on them so they act as a carapaced power armour or growing his dog to huge sizes and having it attack the NPCs. The problem arose when we tried to work out how many animals he could control at once and whether he could keep making them giant.
              >
              > There were other problems but these were by far the problem areas.
              >
              > Considering we were after something light, simple and fun to play around our main game the whole session was very frustrating and it looks like the entire campaign will be either gutted of Icons or discarded unless we can sort this out.
              >
              > Any suggestions/guidance?
              >
              > Tom
              >
            • Tom Pleasant
              Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says the target
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                bullet.

                I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                botches on a roll to disbelief it.
              • Seamus
                With the Illusion issue, I d say getting shot with an imaginary gun is just as, if not more, unbelievable than a dinosaur showing up in town. The more
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  With the Illusion issue, I'd say getting shot with an imaginary gun is just as, if not more, unbelievable than a dinosaur showing up in town. The more frequently you get shot with this 'gun' the more likely you'll notice it's not real.

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pleasant <tom_pleasant@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                  > my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                  > the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                  > illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                  > the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                  > popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                  > therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                  > power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                  > damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                  > bullet.
                  >
                  > I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                  > only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                  > botches on a roll to disbelief it.
                  >
                • Soylent Green
                  I d say that the act of taking illusory damage would be cause for disbelief. You d have you eyes telling you one thing while your nervous system telling you
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'd say that the act of taking illusory damage would be cause for disbelief. You'd have you eyes telling you one thing while your nervous system telling you another.
                     

                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: tom_pleasant@...
                    Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:39:10 +0000
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                     
                    Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                    my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                    the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                    illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                    the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                    popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                    therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                    power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                    damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                    bullet.

                    I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                    only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                    botches on a roll to disbelief it.

                  • John McMullen
                    And I d also choose the lower of the real damage or the illusory damage: 6 is a powerful machine gun; a pretend weapon (unless he s known associates with a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      And I'd also choose the lower of the real damage or the illusory damage: 6 is a powerful machine gun; a pretend weapon (unless he's known associates with a techmeister of some kind) should be 3 or 4 for a pistol or 4 or 5 for a rifle.

                      Maybe I'd give him the first attack without disbelieving, but after the first the target has evidence that he's not hurt.

                      Or you can declare that it's light only; that's even in the rules as written.
                       
                      John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                      jhmcmullen@...


                      From: Tom Pleasant <tom_pleasant@...>
                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 8:39 AM
                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                      Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                      my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                      the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                      illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                      the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                      popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                      therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                      power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                      damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                      bullet.

                      I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                      only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                      botches on a roll to disbelief it.


                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/

                      <*> Your email settings:
                          Individual Email | Traditional

                      <*> To change settings online go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/join
                          (Yahoo! ID required)

                      <*> To change settings via email:
                          icons-rpg-digest@yahoogroups.com
                          icons-rpg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          icons-rpg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                    • Soylent Green
                      I d still go witht he notion that the damage from the illusion should be tied to the rank of the Illusion power and not depend on nature of the illusion. Of
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment

                         
                        I'd still go witht he notion that the damage from the illusion should be tied to the rank of the Illusion power and not depend on nature of the illusion. Of course that means someone will Illusion 8 could do 8 points of damage with a illusionary spitball, but then in a game like this you have to trust the players to be sensible. With great power comes great responsibility and all.

                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        From: jhmcmullen@...
                        Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 06:12:48 -0800
                        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                         
                        And I'd also choose the lower of the real damage or the illusory damage: 6 is a powerful machine gun; a pretend weapon (unless he's known associates with a techmeister of some kind) should be 3 or 4 for a pistol or 4 or 5 for a rifle.

                        Maybe I'd give him the first attack without disbelieving, but after the first the target has evidence that he's not hurt.

                        Or you can declare that it's light only; that's even in the rules as written.
                         
                        John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                        jhmcmullen@...


                        From: Tom Pleasant <tom_pleasant@...>
                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 8:39 AM
                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                        Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                        my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                        the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                        illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                        the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                        popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                        therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                        power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                        damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                        bullet.

                        I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                        only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                        botches on a roll to disbelief it.


                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/

                        <*> Your email settings:
                            Individual Email | Traditional

                        <*> To change settings online go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/join
                            (Yahoo! ID required)

                        <*> To change settings via email:
                            icons-rpg-digest@yahoogroups.com
                            icons-rpg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            icons-rpg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                      • John McMullen
                        You make a good point.   And, alternatively, you might say something like, If the character has been hit by the real version, then he or she is limited to
                        Message 11 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You make a good point.
                           
                          And, alternatively, you might say something like, "If the character has been hit by the real version, then he or she is limited to the lower of the two damages, because he or she knows what it's like. Otherwise, go for the power level."
                           
                          But really, you can argue it any of the three ways. You'll have to house rule it and figure what works best for your group--which is a large part of the game.
                           
                          John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                          jhmcmullen@...

                          From: Soylent Green <gsoylent@...>
                          To: icons group <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:54 AM
                          Subject: RE: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers




                           
                          I'd still go witht he notion that the damage from the illusion should be tied to the rank of the Illusion power and not depend on nature of the illusion. Of course that means someone will Illusion 8 could do 8 points of damage with a illusionary spitball, but then in a game like this you have to trust the players to be sensible. With great power comes great responsibility and all.
                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          From: jhmcmullen@...
                          Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 06:12:48 -0800
                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                           
                          And I'd also choose the lower of the real damage or the illusory damage: 6 is a powerful machine gun; a pretend weapon (unless he's known associates with a techmeister of some kind) should be 3 or 4 for a pistol or 4 or 5 for a rifle.

                          Maybe I'd give him the first attack without disbelieving, but after the first the target has evidence that he's not hurt.

                          Or you can declare that it's light only; that's even in the rules as written.
                           
                          John McMullen (Searching for a .sig)
                          jhmcmullen@...

                          From: Tom Pleasant <tom_pleasant@...>
                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 8:39 AM
                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Problems with powers

                          Thanks for all your suggestions. I am going to discuss with the rest of
                          my group and see what they say. One thing though about Illusion. It says
                          the target only has to roll if they have good reason to believe it is an
                          illusion. So it is implied that for all other uses it is automatic (bar
                          the initial power roll). Short of an illusion describing a dinosaur
                          popping into existence in the middle of town I think most effects could
                          therefore be arranged to be plausible. Hence the gun situation. With a
                          power of six it meant he pulled out the illusory gun, shot it for six
                          damage and the only roll the target could make was to dodge the illusory
                          bullet.

                          I just think that the power needs some sort of limitation, such as it is
                          only visual or aural and only causes illusory harm if the target really
                          botches on a roll to disbelief it.


                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/

                          <*> Your email settings:
                              Individual Email | Traditional

                          <*> To change settings online go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/join
                              (Yahoo! ID required)

                          <*> To change settings via email:
                              icons-rpg-digest@yahoogroups.com
                              icons-rpg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                          <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              icons-rpg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/








                        • Steve Kenson
                          ... Sorry to hear you had problems, Tom. You ve already gotten some excellent advice from the list! ICONS is definitely what some call a high-trust rules
                          Message 12 of 13 , Mar 6, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:27 AM, tom_pleasant@... wrote:
                            We immediately ran into problems with the power rules.

                            Sorry to hear you had problems, Tom. You've already gotten some excellent advice from the list!

                            ICONS is definitely what some call a "high-trust" rules system: a lot of the situational stuff relies on the GM's interpretation and judgment. For what it's worth, here are some guidelines I think are helpful:

                            Generally speaking, a power has one thing that it does. Each additional thing further reduces starting Determination by 1. So a Blast power does damage. If it also does something else (shooting it out behind the hero to fly, for example) that's a regular stunt and "costs" 1 starting Determination, etc., expanding the power's capabilities.

                            So a power like Air Control might be Attacking, Shaping, and Moving. Those things: blasting/damging with air, creating strong winds (or dampening them), and flight, are standard parts of the power. Suffocating a target is a stunt; it costs Determination to use, whereas just blasting somebody does not. On the other hand, if suffocating was a regular aspect of the power and Moving was not, then moving would be a stunt and cost Determination to use and suffocating would not.

                            So keep in mind the basic things a power does and generally when things go outside those parameters, ask for Determination for a power stunt.

                            As to the specific powers…

                            For Illusion, I tend to substitute a resistance test for instances where an attack test or the like would normally occur. So, for example, I can automatically "hit" with my illusionary gun, but the target should get a resistance test, especially if getting hit with a gunshot is an unusual occurrence for them. Remember that illusionary attacks do "normal" damage (that is, the damaged they're expected to do).

                            For the Animal Control/Growth combo, it does sound like Alteration Ray as a stunt of Animal Control is appropriate. Some oddities like the beetle armor might be considered power stunts; if the character does it a lot, make it a standard stunt and reduce starting Determination by 1. Allow the player some flexibility, but ask for Determination for unusual power uses, especially ones that grant a significant advantage.

                            I hope that's helpful. 

                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.