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Re: Wizardry (?)

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  • prodezigner
    Thanks for the quick reply! Maybe I should ve asked a more concise question... What dictates how many sub-powers Wizardry can have? Since we know that some
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 10, 2012
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      Thanks for the quick reply!

      Maybe I should've asked a more concise question... What dictates how many sub-powers Wizardry can have? Since we know that some heroes in the Hero Pack have multiple powers listed under Wizardry (Miss Tikal has three, Necromancer five, Zeitgeist five, etc.) instead of the normal two?

      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "wee_ree_cat" <wee_ree_cat@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi !
      >
      > From the ICONS CLARIFICATION NOTES compiled by Joe "jaerdaph" Bardales :
      >
      > **********
      > Q: Bonus Powers - Some powers grant Bonus Powers that occupy another power slot without needing to be rolled. How do Bonus Powers work in the point buy system? Do you just pay for them as a separate power?
      >
      > A: [Steve Kenson:] Essentially, yes. Much of what bonus powers are intended to do is irrelevant in the point-buy system, since you get to pick all your powers anyway. So you don't need the ability to swap random powers for themed ones that bonus powers gives you.
      >
      > So most "bonus" powers are just bought as additional powers for the usual 1 point per level. In cases where a bonus power is a modification to an existing power, like making a touch power work at close range without touching, treat it like increasing the power's cost per level by 1 (so from 1 per level to 2 per level for "base" power).
      >
      > **********
      > Q: When doing point-buy how is Wizardry handled? If I buy Wizardry 4 it counts as two powers. How much does it cost? How much for additional powers?
      >
      > A: [Steve Kenson:] The point-buy option does not alter the "cost" of a power (in points), they all cost the same: 1 point per level. You can double the costs, if you like, but it tends to place those powers pretty out of reach. Point-buy also doesn't really provide bonus powers. If you need to apply one, pay the power's level cost again.
      >
      > Q: So you buy Wizardry 6. It costs 6 points. Do I get two powers per the power entry? Or do you have to pay for the extra power?
      >
      > A: [Steve Kenson:] No, I'd say you get the default two.
      >
      > Q: ICONS Wizardry Entry pg 40 Choose two power effects you can duplicate with your Wizardry. So any additional powers would have to be bought at rank 6 cost, right?
      >
      > A: [Steve Kenson:] Right.
      >
      >
      >
      > ==========================================
      >
      > I personally use point-buy, but not the official one. It sounds too much like an afterthought of the designers to me, completely unbalanced, which defeats the point of having a point-buy system in the first place (it's supposed to be the contrary of randomly assigned levels after all, and give everyone the same start).
      >
      > I use the Unverse Protocols rules by Sean Patrick Fannon, and in those, Bonus Powers are powers you have to buy, but at a slightly smaller price than its parent power. I like it.
      >
      >
      > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "prodezigner" <bford83@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Alright, I understand that Wizardry counts as two powers, and it gives you two powers with additional powers being BONUS powers and you can stunt practically ANY power in the game.
      > >
      > > I noticed a lot of villains from the Hero Pack have multiple powers under Wizardry, which leads me to my question...
      > >
      > > My group was doing point-buy for Wizardry, and I let it be that additional powers under Wizardry was fine since the Hero Pack allows for this. Then one of my players brought up that bonus powers were replacements for rolling, and that the additional powers should be just that, extra purchased powers, and Wizardry being maxed out at two powers.
      > >
      > > Guidance and clarification? I'm sure the Point Buy methodology handles Bonus Powers differently no doubt.
      > >
      >
    • Cameron Mount
      I don t think anything dictates the number of sub-powers except for the limits of rolling (if you use the default method) or points (if you use the point buy
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 10, 2012
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         I don't think anything dictates the number of sub-powers except for the limits of rolling (if you use the default method) or points (if you use the point buy method), so long as you pay for them all, whichever method you use. If you roll for 4 total powers, then you could have Wizardry with 4 subpowers (2 from base, and two from bonus powers). And with point-buy, so long as you don't overspend, you can have as many as you want.

        On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13, prodezigner <bford83@...> wrote:
         

        Thanks for the quick reply!

        Maybe I should've asked a more concise question... What dictates how many sub-powers Wizardry can have? Since we know that some heroes in the Hero Pack have multiple powers listed under Wizardry (Miss Tikal has three, Necromancer five, Zeitgeist five, etc.) instead of the normal two?

        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "wee_ree_cat" <wee_ree_cat@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi !
        >
        > From the ICONS CLARIFICATION NOTES compiled by Joe "jaerdaph" Bardales :
        >
        > **********
        > Q: Bonus Powers - Some powers grant Bonus Powers that occupy another power slot without needing to be rolled. How do Bonus Powers work in the point buy system? Do you just pay for them as a separate power?
        >
        > A: [Steve Kenson:] Essentially, yes. Much of what bonus powers are intended to do is irrelevant in the point-buy system, since you get to pick all your powers anyway. So you don't need the ability to swap random powers for themed ones that bonus powers gives you.
        >
        > So most "bonus" powers are just bought as additional powers for the usual 1 point per level. In cases where a bonus power is a modification to an existing power, like making a touch power work at close range without touching, treat it like increasing the power's cost per level by 1 (so from 1 per level to 2 per level for "base" power).
        >
        > **********
        > Q: When doing point-buy how is Wizardry handled? If I buy Wizardry 4 it counts as two powers. How much does it cost? How much for additional powers?
        >
        > A: [Steve Kenson:] The point-buy option does not alter the "cost" of a power (in points), they all cost the same: 1 point per level. You can double the costs, if you like, but it tends to place those powers pretty out of reach. Point-buy also doesn't really provide bonus powers. If you need to apply one, pay the power's level cost again.
        >
        > Q: So you buy Wizardry 6. It costs 6 points. Do I get two powers per the power entry? Or do you have to pay for the extra power?
        >
        > A: [Steve Kenson:] No, I'd say you get the default two.
        >
        > Q: ICONS Wizardry Entry pg 40 Choose two power effects you can duplicate with your Wizardry. So any additional powers would have to be bought at rank 6 cost, right?
        >
        > A: [Steve Kenson:] Right.
        >
        >
        >
        > ==========================================
        >
        > I personally use point-buy, but not the official one. It sounds too much like an afterthought of the designers to me, completely unbalanced, which defeats the point of having a point-buy system in the first place (it's supposed to be the contrary of randomly assigned levels after all, and give everyone the same start).
        >
        > I use the Unverse Protocols rules by Sean Patrick Fannon, and in those, Bonus Powers are powers you have to buy, but at a slightly smaller price than its parent power. I like it.
        >
        >
        > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "prodezigner" <bford83@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Alright, I understand that Wizardry counts as two powers, and it gives you two powers with additional powers being BONUS powers and you can stunt practically ANY power in the game.
        > >
        > > I noticed a lot of villains from the Hero Pack have multiple powers under Wizardry, which leads me to my question...
        > >
        > > My group was doing point-buy for Wizardry, and I let it be that additional powers under Wizardry was fine since the Hero Pack allows for this. Then one of my players brought up that bonus powers were replacements for rolling, and that the additional powers should be just that, extra purchased powers, and Wizardry being maxed out at two powers.
        > >
        > > Guidance and clarification? I'm sure the Point Buy methodology handles Bonus Powers differently no doubt.
        > >
        >


      • Tim K.
        If I remember correctly. The idea of bonus powers is something that occurs in Advanced Marvel Superheroes, and its powers book the Ultimate Powers sourcebook.
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 10, 2012
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          If I remember correctly.

          The idea of bonus powers is something that occurs in Advanced Marvel
          Superheroes, and its powers book the Ultimate Powers sourcebook. In
          that. Powers that were bonus powers were additional powers that you
          could choose and replace your already rolled powers so that you themed
          your character. Thus if you got Coloration, Telepathy, Energy
          Control-Plasma; You could swap Coloration for Mind Blast, and Energy
          Control for Telekinesis or something similar. Setting a solid theme for
          your character as a mentalists. Bonus powers tended to be chosen after
          you'd rolled all powers and were essentially things you swapped out.

          There was another set of powers "Stunts" where you started with
          additional sub-powers of your powers. Power Stunts were very explicit
          uses of other powers (Rather than full powers themselves) They tended to
          be -1CS (Minus 1 Power Level) to its parent power, but usually was a
          finesse application of the base power. Things covered would be
          Teleportation from Darkforce Manipulation, or Mind Blast from Telepathy.
          Mind Probe from Telepathy (or even Mind blast.) You'll note both sets
          can give Mind Blast, or similar powers quite often. Yet a stunt is
          usually weaker, and something you may earn in play. A bonus power is not.

          Of course none of this weighs in on Additional powers, which occurred
          when you rolled something that was but wasn't a power, like Water
          Breathing, or Alternate Ego. Which was simply a "oops, not cool, roll
          and add another power."

          If the issue is so important, I'd suggest handling it like this for
          Icon's. A Bonus power drops a rolled power off the list and replaces it.
          If you aren't rolling you don't get bonus powers. A stunt, is a a power
          that is very tightly themed, and since it is something you do with a
          power you already have you use it at -1. Wizardry, as a power wouldn't
          get stunts starting out. Only in play. In fact most powers in Icons
          would work that way since they are a bit more open and flexible than
          MSH's. (Whose powers were often more tightly defined in the books, but
          were not even used that way by "Official" write-ups, erratta, and so on.)

          Bonus powers only turn up when you roll. Otherwise being full powers on
          there own.

          Stunts, only come up during play. They can become "permanent" after a
          few uses (as Marvel Handles it--it would be 10, but you can set it for
          your own game where you like it. In MSH you could also fail at getting
          stunts but Icon's is way more relaxed, which is a good thing.) MSH was a
          great game, but it emulated Marvel in the 80's. We've had nearly "two"
          generations of comic books since then and a splintering of ages as well.
          What Marvel is now more than ever depends on the comic book--the same
          with other companies. So being free-er with how you do super heroes is a
          good thing, to fit the tone of the comic book universe you are playing with.


          Icon's is a great game. So to MSH, but MSH really detailed things, which
          I think prevented some people from realizing its greatness. At the same
          time for people not as wholly experienced with superhero gaming, or the
          genre as I am, Icon's might have needed some more explicit guidance.
          (Not necessarily rules.)
        • Seamus
          Apart from getting any power as a stunt, doesn t the point buy kind of negate Wizardry? I mean, you could take any power you want within the point buy and call
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 10, 2012
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            Apart from getting any power as a stunt, doesn't the point buy kind of negate Wizardry? I mean, you could take any power you want within the point buy and call it magical. Wizardry will give you ability to call up any power as needed, sure, but any power as a bonus power vs. buy any power at point cost seems redundant.

            I could almost see Wizardry more as an Aspect in a game built around point-buy. The wizard pulls in some otherworldly favors and suddenly gets some previously unknown ability. Give the Hero an Intellect roll plus Occult at a cost of 1 Determination to try the stunt.

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Cameron Mount <cameron.a.mount@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't think anything dictates the number of sub-powers except for the
            > limits of rolling (if you use the default method) or points (if you use the
            > point buy method), so long as you pay for them all, whichever method you
            > use. If you roll for 4 total powers, then you could have Wizardry with 4
            > subpowers (2 from base, and two from bonus powers). And with point-buy, so
            > long as you don't overspend, you can have as many as you want.
            >
            > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:13, prodezigner <bford83@...> wrote:
            >
            > > **
            > >
            > >
            > > Thanks for the quick reply!
            > >
            > > Maybe I should've asked a more concise question... What dictates how many
            > > sub-powers Wizardry can have? Since we know that some heroes in the Hero
            > > Pack have multiple powers listed under Wizardry (Miss Tikal has three,
            > > Necromancer five, Zeitgeist five, etc.) instead of the normal two?
            > >
            > > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "wee_ree_cat" <wee_ree_cat@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi !
            > > >
            > > > From the ICONS CLARIFICATION NOTES compiled by Joe "jaerdaph" Bardales :
            > > >
            > > > **********
            > > > Q: Bonus Powers - Some powers grant Bonus Powers that occupy another
            > > power slot without needing to be rolled. How do Bonus Powers work in the
            > > point buy system? Do you just pay for them as a separate power?
            > > >
            > > > A: [Steve Kenson:] Essentially, yes. Much of what bonus powers are
            > > intended to do is irrelevant in the point-buy system, since you get to pick
            > > all your powers anyway. So you don't need the ability to swap random powers
            > > for themed ones that bonus powers gives you.
            > > >
            > > > So most "bonus" powers are just bought as additional powers for the
            > > usual 1 point per level. In cases where a bonus power is a modification to
            > > an existing power, like making a touch power work at close range without
            > > touching, treat it like increasing the power's cost per level by 1 (so from
            > > 1 per level to 2 per level for "base" power).
            > > >
            > > > **********
            > > > Q: When doing point-buy how is Wizardry handled? If I buy Wizardry 4 it
            > > counts as two powers. How much does it cost? How much for additional powers?
            > > >
            > > > A: [Steve Kenson:] The point-buy option does not alter the "cost" of a
            > > power (in points), they all cost the same: 1 point per level. You can
            > > double the costs, if you like, but it tends to place those powers pretty
            > > out of reach. Point-buy also doesn't really provide bonus powers. If you
            > > need to apply one, pay the power's level cost again.
            > > >
            > > > Q: So you buy Wizardry 6. It costs 6 points. Do I get two powers per the
            > > power entry? Or do you have to pay for the extra power?
            > > >
            > > > A: [Steve Kenson:] No, I'd say you get the default two.
            > > >
            > > > Q: ICONS Wizardry Entry pg 40 Choose two power effects you can duplicate
            > > with your Wizardry. So any additional powers would have to be bought at
            > > rank 6 cost, right?
            > > >
            > > > A: [Steve Kenson:] Right.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ==========================================
            > > >
            > > > I personally use point-buy, but not the official one. It sounds too much
            > > like an afterthought of the designers to me, completely unbalanced, which
            > > defeats the point of having a point-buy system in the first place (it's
            > > supposed to be the contrary of randomly assigned levels after all, and give
            > > everyone the same start).
            > > >
            > > > I use the Unverse Protocols rules by Sean Patrick Fannon, and in those,
            > > Bonus Powers are powers you have to buy, but at a slightly smaller price
            > > than its parent power. I like it.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "prodezigner" <bford83@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Alright, I understand that Wizardry counts as two powers, and it gives
            > > you two powers with additional powers being BONUS powers and you can stunt
            > > practically ANY power in the game.
            > > > >
            > > > > I noticed a lot of villains from the Hero Pack have multiple powers
            > > under Wizardry, which leads me to my question...
            > > > >
            > > > > My group was doing point-buy for Wizardry, and I let it be that
            > > additional powers under Wizardry was fine since the Hero Pack allows for
            > > this. Then one of my players brought up that bonus powers were replacements
            > > for rolling, and that the additional powers should be just that, extra
            > > purchased powers, and Wizardry being maxed out at two powers.
            > > > >
            > > > > Guidance and clarification? I'm sure the Point Buy methodology handles
            > > Bonus Powers differently no doubt.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
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