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Re: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?

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  • Dr. Nuncheon
    ... That s hard to answer without knowing what you think of as their story function. An 8 is well into superhuman. For Int 8, consider this: A top-notch PhD,
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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      On 7/4/2011 8:38 PM, Michael Hopcroft wrote:

      The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
      want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
      one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
      Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?


      That's hard to answer without knowing what you think of as their story function.  An 8 is well into superhuman. 

      For Int 8, consider this: A top-notch PhD, doctor or lawyer with decades of experience might have Int 5 and Mastery in their field, giving them a +8.  Someone with Int 8 is on par with those kinds of people.  *All* of them.  He could perform surgery, argue a case in front of the Supreme Court, design a bridge, draw up the schematics for his own computer hardware and then write the operating system for it, make a fortune on the stock market, solve crimes - and do it all with the same level of ability as some of the best people in their respective fields.  He may not be quite at the level of House, Holmes or Hawking at Medicine, Criminology, or Physics, but he is right behind them.
    • Curt Meyer
      Something like Amazing in MSH? Sent from my iPad
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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        Something like Amazing in MSH?

        Sent from my iPad

        On Jul 4, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Michael Hopcroft <mhopcroft@...> wrote:

         

        I just submitted my two characters to Hero Pack 3 and have had their
        entries confirmed, so I'll be adding a couple of characters to the Icon
        universe. An interesting thing is that both characters have an Ability
        value of 8, in different abilities. So I'm wondering just what that
        means, as I'm still not used to ICONS' 1-10 scale that maxes out at 10.

        It's obvious that for Strength a 10 would be someone on the order of
        Superman, Thor or the Hulk. So what does an 8 mean in comparison?

        Likewise, Intellect 10 would be someone like Reed Richards. What's an 8?

        The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
        want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
        one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
        Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?

      • Brandon Blackmoor
        On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:07 -0400, Dr. Nuncheon ... This is so cool. I have shared this with my game group. Kind regards, Brandon
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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          On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:07 -0400, "Dr. Nuncheon" <drnuncheon@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > For Int 8, consider this: A top-notch PhD, doctor or lawyer with decades
          > of experience might have Int 5 and Mastery in their field, giving them a
          > +8. Someone with Int 8 is on par with those kinds of people. *All* of
          > them. He could perform surgery, argue a case in front of the Supreme
          > Court, design a bridge, draw up the schematics for his own computer
          > hardware and then write the operating system for it, make a fortune on
          > the stock market, solve crimes - and do it all with the same level of
          > ability as some of the best people in their respective fields. He may
          > not be quite at the level of House, Holmes or Hawking at Medicine,
          > Criminology, or Physics, but he is right behind them.


          This is so cool. I have shared this with my game group.


          Kind regards,
          Brandon Blackmoor

          --
          bblackmoor@...
          2011-07-04
        • Michael Hopcroft
          ... Since the character will be in Hero Pack 3 I can t give too much away, but I can say that he is supposed to be capable of building technological and
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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            On 7/4/2011 6:07 PM, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:
             

            On 7/4/2011 8:38 PM, Michael Hopcroft wrote:

            The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
            want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
            one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
            Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?


            That's hard to answer without knowing what you think of as their story function.  An 8 is well into superhuman. 

            Since the character will be in Hero Pack 3 I can't give too much away, but I can say that he is supposed to be capable of building technological and biological weapons that can threaten whole super-teams to achieve his aims. Need giant robot killing machines to threaten a major city or monsters aimed at a specific hero's weak spot? He's your guy.

            The other character has Strength 8 and Coordination 1. She is known for the collateral damage she generates every time she gets into a fight.
          • Curt Meyer
            I believe there s a conversion doc and even benchmarks in the files section. Those might help compare with more classic ranks, like in FASERIP. Sent from my
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 4, 2011
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              I believe there's a conversion doc and even benchmarks in the files section. Those might help compare with more "classic" ranks, like in FASERIP.

              Sent from my iPad

              On Jul 4, 2011, at 10:27 PM, Michael Hopcroft <mhopcroft@...> wrote:

               

              On 7/4/2011 6:07 PM, Dr. Nuncheon wrote:

               

              On 7/4/2011 8:38 PM, Michael Hopcroft wrote:

              The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
              want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
              one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
              Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?


              That's hard to answer without knowing what you think of as their story function.  An 8 is well into superhuman. 

              Since the character will be in Hero Pack 3 I can't give too much away, but I can say that he is supposed to be capable of building technological and biological weapons that can threaten whole super-teams to achieve his aims. Need giant robot killing machines to threaten a major city or monsters aimed at a specific hero's weak spot? He's your guy.

              The other character has Strength 8 and Coordination 1. She is known for the collateral damage she generates every time she gets into a fight.

            • Soylent Green
              As I mentioned on RPGNet, strictly using Icons own benhcmarks with Strength 8 you can lift a jet or train or bend a 2 inch think bar of steel. It is also the
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                As I mentioned on RPGNet, strictly using Icons own benhcmarks  with Strength 8 you can lift a jet or train or bend a 2 inch think bar of steel. It is also the strength of a tyrannosaurus or a giant squid.

                A more practical measure is simply to say that 8 is high-end superhuman which means you can try anything strength feat short of the absurd cosmic shifting planets stuff. I mean it's not like comicbook represent a heroes' powers consitently anyway. 

                The important thing is that 8 is greater than 7 but less than 9 which matters mostly when you are facing another super-strong superhero. 


                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                From: mhopcroft@...
                Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 17:38:00 -0700
                Subject: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?

                 
                I just submitted my two characters to Hero Pack 3 and have had their
                entries confirmed, so I'll be adding a couple of characters to the Icon
                universe. An interesting thing is that both characters have an Ability
                value of 8, in different abilities. So I'm wondering just what that
                means, as I'm still not used to ICONS' 1-10 scale that maxes out at 10.

                It's obvious that for Strength a 10 would be someone on the order of
                Superman, Thor or the Hulk. So what does an 8 mean in comparison?

                Likewise, Intellect 10 would be someone like Reed Richards. What's an 8?

                The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
                want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
                one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
                Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?

              • Charles Rice
                If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be amazing . So:
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                  If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                  So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                  (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                  By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                  On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                   

                  As I mentioned on RPGNet, strictly using Icons own benhcmarks  with Strength 8 you can lift a jet or train or bend a 2 inch think bar of steel. It is also the strength of a tyrannosaurus or a giant squid.

                  A more practical measure is simply to say that 8 is high-end superhuman which means you can try anything strength feat short of the absurd cosmic shifting planets stuff. I mean it's not like comicbook represent a heroes' powers consitently anyway. 

                  The important thing is that 8 is greater than 7 but less than 9 which matters mostly when you are facing another super-strong superhero. 


                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                  From: mhopcroft@...
                  Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 17:38:00 -0700
                  Subject: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?

                   
                  I just submitted my two characters to Hero Pack 3 and have had their
                  entries confirmed, so I'll be adding a couple of characters to the Icon
                  universe. An interesting thing is that both characters have an Ability
                  value of 8, in different abilities. So I'm wondering just what that
                  means, as I'm still not used to ICONS' 1-10 scale that maxes out at 10.

                  It's obvious that for Strength a 10 would be someone on the order of
                  Superman, Thor or the Hulk. So what does an 8 mean in comparison?

                  Likewise, Intellect 10 would be someone like Reed Richards. What's an 8?

                  The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
                  want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
                  one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
                  Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?


                • Charles Rice
                  Also, again using FASERIP s 10 ranks, which I think align pretty directly with ICONS, Thing and Hulk would have 9 Strengths, while Superman would (this is me
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                    Also, again using FASERIP's 10 ranks, which I think align pretty directly with ICONS, Thing and Hulk would have 9 Strengths, while Superman would (this is me guessing), surpass them both with a 10.

                    On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:
                    If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                    So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                    (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                    By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                    On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 3:48 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                     

                    As I mentioned on RPGNet, strictly using Icons own benhcmarks  with Strength 8 you can lift a jet or train or bend a 2 inch think bar of steel. It is also the strength of a tyrannosaurus or a giant squid.

                    A more practical measure is simply to say that 8 is high-end superhuman which means you can try anything strength feat short of the absurd cosmic shifting planets stuff. I mean it's not like comicbook represent a heroes' powers consitently anyway. 

                    The important thing is that 8 is greater than 7 but less than 9 which matters mostly when you are facing another super-strong superhero. 


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: mhopcroft@...
                    Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 17:38:00 -0700
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?

                     
                    I just submitted my two characters to Hero Pack 3 and have had their
                    entries confirmed, so I'll be adding a couple of characters to the Icon
                    universe. An interesting thing is that both characters have an Ability
                    value of 8, in different abilities. So I'm wondering just what that
                    means, as I'm still not used to ICONS' 1-10 scale that maxes out at 10.

                    It's obvious that for Strength a 10 would be someone on the order of
                    Superman, Thor or the Hulk. So what does an 8 mean in comparison?

                    Likewise, Intellect 10 would be someone like Reed Richards. What's an 8?

                    The question is whether these abilities are high enough to do what I
                    want these characters to be able to do, particularly the Intellect of
                    one particular character who has Wizardry/Gadgets at the same level.
                    Would these characters need a boost to fulfill their story function?



                  • Michael Hopcroft
                    ... I m wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I m wondering if I should revise that
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                      On 7/5/2011 2:03 AM, Charles Rice wrote:  

                      If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                      So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                      (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                      By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                      I'm wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I'm wondering if I should revise that sentiment, not having seen the FASERIP system in a while. I'm wondering whether the 10 should be left to the nigh-omniscient cosmic entities like the Watcher or Anti-Monitor. Would 8 be as smart as, say, Richards, Doctor Doom  or Lex Luthor?


                    • emu2020@comcast.net
                      Depends on what version of MSH you are looking at . Remember, that later on you end up with six ranks beyond, Unearthly (10), seven if you count the Beyond
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                        Depends on what version of MSH you are looking at. Remember, that later on you end up with six ranks beyond, Unearthly (10), seven if you count the "Beyond" stat.

                         

                        -Eli


                        From: "Michael Hopcroft" <mhopcroft@...>
                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2011 8:01:17 AM
                        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?

                         

                        On 7/5/2011 2:03 AM, Charles Rice wrote:

                         

                        If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                        So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                        (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                        By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                        I'm wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I'm wondering if I should revise that sentiment, not having seen the FASERIP system in a while. I'm wondering whether the 10 should be left to the nigh-omniscient cosmic entities like the Watcher or Anti-Monitor. Would 8 be as smart as, say, Richards, Doctor Doom  or Lex Luthor?


                      • Charles Rice
                        Right, according to the Marvel Scale, 7 would be Professor X, Magneto, and Tony Stark (capable of repairing alien technology or making improvements on normal
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                          Right, according to the Marvel Scale, 7 would be Professor X, Magneto, and Tony Stark (capable of repairing alien technology or making improvements on normal science); 8 would be Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, Leader, Ultron (can modify and improve alien technology); 9 would be High Evolutionary, and 10 is listed as the Watcher (sees all, knows all).

                          On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Michael Hopcroft <mhopcroft@...> wrote:
                           

                          On 7/5/2011 2:03 AM, Charles Rice wrote:
                           

                          If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                          So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                          (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                          By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                          I'm wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I'm wondering if I should revise that sentiment, not having seen the FASERIP system in a while. I'm wondering whether the 10 should be left to the nigh-omniscient cosmic entities like the Watcher or Anti-Monitor. Would 8 be as smart as, say, Richards, Doctor Doom  or Lex Luthor?



                        • Charles Rice
                          True, but that didn t modify hero ability scores much. The 10-point Feeble to Unearthly scale was still reserved for player characters ability scores, which
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                            True, but that didn't modify hero ability scores much.

                            The 10-point Feeble to Unearthly scale was still reserved for player characters ability scores, which included all the main marvel heroes, so in the advanced rules, Hulk's Strength is still 9 (Monstrous), Thor's Prowess is still 10, etc.

                            Sometimes characters could push into the "shift" ranks temporarily- I think Hulk's Strength could go beyond Unearthly temporarily, for example, which would put him above 10 in ICONS terms, still FASERIP ranks track the 10 point scale well enough that I've used it to give players who are familiar with comics an idea of what their ability scores mean.

                            On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:18 AM, <emu2020@...> wrote:
                             

                            Depends on what version of MSH you are looking at. Remember, that later on you end up with six ranks beyond, Unearthly (10), seven if you count the "Beyond" stat.

                             

                            -Eli


                            From: "Michael Hopcroft" <mhopcroft@...>

                            Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2011 8:01:17 AM
                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] How powerful is an 8?


                             

                            On 7/5/2011 2:03 AM, Charles Rice wrote:

                             

                            If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                            So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                            (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                            By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                            I'm wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I'm wondering if I should revise that sentiment, not having seen the FASERIP system in a while. I'm wondering whether the 10 should be left to the nigh-omniscient cosmic entities like the Watcher or Anti-Monitor. Would 8 be as smart as, say, Richards, Doctor Doom  or Lex Luthor?



                          • Michael Hopcroft
                            Well, in this case, I managed to find what I think is my answer so far. I found my Judge s Book for Advanced MSH and found that an Amazing rank intelligence is
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                              Well, in this case, I managed to find what I think is my answer so far.
                              I found my Judge's Book for Advanced MSH and found that an Amazing rank
                              intelligence is assigned to both Reed Richards and Dr. Doom. So it looks
                              like my super-smart villain will be able to do what I want from him with
                              an Intellect of 8 (and the use of appropriate Stunts).

                              My heroine has a Coordination of 1, as I mentioned, to go along with her
                              Strength of 8. I rolled her up that way. I'm assuming she is going to be
                              rather clumsy and cause some serious property damage when she fights.
                            • Curt Meyer
                              Man, I love ICONS! Sent from my iPad
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 5, 2011
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                                Man, I love ICONS!

                                Sent from my iPad

                                On Jul 5, 2011, at 12:58 PM, Charles Rice <rpgchuck@...> wrote:

                                 

                                Right, according to the Marvel Scale, 7 would be Professor X, Magneto, and Tony Stark (capable of repairing alien technology or making improvements on normal science); 8 would be Reed Richards, Dr. Doom, Leader, Ultron (can modify and improve alien technology); 9 would be High Evolutionary, and 10 is listed as the Watcher (sees all, knows all).

                                On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Michael Hopcroft <mhopcroft@...> wrote:
                                 

                                On 7/5/2011 2:03 AM, Charles Rice wrote:
                                 

                                If I can fall back on comparing ICONS 10-rank ability/power scores with Marvel FASERIP (which also used a 10 rank scale), 8 would be "amazing".

                                So: Spider-Man's Coordination; Black Panther's Prowess; Iron Man's Invulnerability; Ms Marvel's Strength; Vision's Strength; Captain Marvel's Awareness

                                (yes, I grabbed Avengers Coast to Coast to grab some random stats)

                                By contrast, Iron Man's Invulnerability in his gold armor is listed at a 6 in ICONS terms.

                                I'm wondering how that applies to Intellect. I recall saying earlier that I assumed Reed Richards would be a 10. Now I'm wondering if I should revise that sentiment, not having seen the FASERIP system in a while. I'm wondering whether the 10 should be left to the nigh-omniscient cosmic entities like the Watcher or Anti-Monitor. Would 8 be as smart as, say, Richards, Doctor Doom  or Lex Luthor?



                              • eric troup
                                At the risk of being a nitpicker, would you not want Prowess, rather than Coordination, to be a 1 for the clumsiness you are after, since Prowess is what is
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 9, 2011
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                                  At the risk of being a nitpicker, would you not want Prowess, rather than Coordination, to be a 1 for the clumsiness you are after, since Prowess is what is used when fighting (as opposed to Coordination, which is used for ranged attacks)?


                                  On 5 Jul 2011, at 11:24, Michael Hopcroft wrote:

                                  > Well, in this case, I managed to find what I think is my answer so far.
                                  > I found my Judge's Book for Advanced MSH and found that an Amazing rank
                                  > intelligence is assigned to both Reed Richards and Dr. Doom. So it looks
                                  > like my super-smart villain will be able to do what I want from him with
                                  > an Intellect of 8 (and the use of appropriate Stunts).
                                  >
                                  > My heroine has a Coordination of 1, as I mentioned, to go along with her
                                  > Strength of 8. I rolled her up that way. I'm assuming she is going to be
                                  > rather clumsy and cause some serious property damage when she fights.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Michael Hopcroft
                                  ... She was a rolled-up character. 1 coordination came up on her dice (I used the Character Builder to make her) Besides, I don t want her clumsiness to be
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 9, 2011
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                                    On 7/9/2011 1:35 PM, eric troup wrote:  

                                    At the risk of being a nitpicker, would you not want Prowess, rather than Coordination, to be a 1 for the clumsiness you are after, since Prowess is what is used when fighting (as opposed to Coordination, which is used for ranged attacks)?

                                    She was a rolled-up character. 1 coordination came up on her "dice" (I used the Character Builder to make her)  Besides, I don't want her clumsiness to be utterly crippling. Her only attacks are hand-to-hand based on her Strength. With a 1 prowess she would be a useless combatant. Her clumsiness has more effect in that she tends to cause a lot of property damage when she fights. She's also not the person you want to hand the golden idol to -- more likely than not she'd break it accidentally.
                                  • Mike Olson
                                    ... Her Abilities won t have any effect on how likely she is to cause property damage. For that, give her a Challenge of Collateral Damage Is My Middle Name
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 9, 2011
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                                      On 5 Jul 2011, at 11:24, Michael Hopcroft wrote:

                                      > My heroine has a Coordination of 1, as I mentioned, to go along with her
                                      > Strength of 8. I rolled her up that way. I'm assuming she is going to be
                                      > rather clumsy and cause some serious property damage when she fights.

                                      Her Abilities won't have any effect on how likely she is to cause property damage. For that, give her a Challenge of "Collateral Damage Is My Middle Name" or something similar, then compel it to have a missed blow hit something she'd rather not hit.

                                      --Mike
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