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powers stunts

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  • Brandon Blackmoor
    If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own level as the difficulty. If
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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      "If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination
      to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own
      level as the difficulty. If the test fails, so does the stunt,
      and nothing happens."


      1) Do GMs really make people spend Determination and then get nothing
      for it? That seems pretty messed up to me.

      2) If any power can be used for a Power Stunt, and if a character with
      the Wizardry power has to jump through all the same hoops as someone
      with, say, a bow and arrow, then what's the advantage of Wizardry when
      it comes to firing a smoke-grenade-arrow? I can see how Wizardry would
      work for a Dr. Strange or an unusually creative Green Lantern (most
      Green Lanterns just make big green fists), because they really can do
      anything, but I am still having trouble seeing how one would make up a
      Green Arrow type character. Wouldn't Green Arrow be better off just
      having Blast, and putting those other points (or rolled powers,
      whatever) into Determination so he can have plenty of trick arrows?


      Kind regards,
      Brandon Blackmoor

      --
      bblackmoor@...
      2011-06-16
    • abesapiens
      ... That was my first house rule - if you spend the point you get the stunt. If you don t want or have a point to spend, you can to roll to do it. Paying a
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
        >
        > "If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination
        > to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own
        > level as the difficulty. If the test fails, so does the stunt,
        > and nothing happens."
        >
        >
        > 1) Do GMs really make people spend Determination and then get nothing
        > for it? That seems pretty messed up to me.

        That was my first house rule - if you spend the point you get the stunt. If you don't want or have a point to spend, you can to roll to do it. Paying a point for 58.3% chance of accomplishing something cool, vs. wasting a panel sucks. And what's up with the text, "...make a test of your trait using its own level as the difficulty."? Why not say roll the dice and if you get 0 or better it works? [later - I guess as written, you can use your Power Speciality, if you have one, to improve your roll, which makes sense.]

        >
        > 2) If any power can be used for a Power Stunt, and if a character with
        > the Wizardry power has to jump through all the same hoops as someone
        > with, say, a bow and arrow, then what's the advantage of Wizardry when
        > it comes to firing a smoke-grenade-arrow? I can see how Wizardry would
        > work for a Dr. Strange or an unusually creative Green Lantern (most
        > Green Lanterns just make big green fists), because they really can do
        > anything, but I am still having trouble seeing how one would make up a
        > Green Arrow type character. Wouldn't Green Arrow be better off just
        > having Blast, and putting those other points (or rolled powers,
        > whatever) into Determination so he can have plenty of trick arrows?
        >

        I'd say the character with Wizardry has a greater degree of freedom for potential stunts. An archer with a quiver full of regular arrows might be able to stunt a bind by declaring how the arrows pin the target's clothes to the wall, or stun a target by removing the arrow head, but not stunt an Affliction to gas the target to sleep.

        Below is my arcane archer character from our Eberron game. I was a player, not the gm:

        Fletcher
        aka Fletcher Wordsmith
        Origin: Arcane Training

        Prowess 4 Coordination 8 Strength 4 Intellect 4 Awareness 5 Willpower 7

        Stamina 11 Determination 2

        POWERS
        Glyphs of Invulnerability 6
        Arcane Archery (Wizardry) 7
        Blast and Movement (Zipline) Arcane Sight 1

        SPECIALITIES
        Martial Arts
        Criminology

        QUALITIES
        Defend the weak
        Cosmopolitan
        Contact: Old Man Spellcrafter
        Contact: Boldrei Orphanage

        CHALLENGES
        Over Analyzes
        Righteous
      • Dr. Nuncheon
        ... True, but, we have already established that your group ought to be increasing the Determination flow. It hurts a lot more to waste Determination when
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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          On Jun 16, 2011, at 1:23 PM, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:

           

          "If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination
          to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own
          level as the difficulty. If the test fails, so does the stunt,
          and nothing happens."

          1) Do GMs really make people spend Determination and then get nothing
          for it? That seems pretty messed up to me.

          True, but, we have already established that your group ought to be increasing the Determination flow. It hurts a lot more to "waste" Determination when you're getting 1 per session than it does when you might wind up getting (and spending) 10. 

          Turning Determination into an automatic success might make it too powerful. 

          2) If any power can be used for a Power Stunt, and if a character with
          the Wizardry power has to jump through all the same hoops as someone
          with, say, a bow and arrow, then what's the advantage of Wizardry when
          it comes to firing a smoke-grenade-arrow? I can see how Wizardry would
          work for a Dr. Strange or an unusually creative Green Lantern (most
          Green Lanterns just make big green fists), because they really can do
          anything, but I am still having trouble seeing how one would make up a
          Green Arrow type character. Wouldn't Green Arrow be better off just
          having Blast, and putting those other points (or rolled powers,
          whatever) into Determination so he can have plenty of trick arrows?

          As a GM, if you come to me wanting to stunt off of your Blast power which is defined as a bow and arrow, I am going to limit you to stunts that are logical with a bow and arrow. You could nail someone to a wall by their cape, cut something or disarm someone at range, etc.  But if you say "smoke bomb arrow" I'm going to say no.

          If you instead come to me wanting to stunt off your Wizardry power defined as "quiver of trick arrows" then your possibilities are much wider. Smoke bomb arrow, taser arrow, net arrow, camera arrow, swingline arrow, depleted uranium arrow, experimental dimensional banishing arrow…
        • Brandon Blackmoor
          ... That s messed up, too. That s reminiscent of the old Vampire rules, where the better you were at something, the more likely you were to botch the roll.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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            On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:41 +0000, "abesapiens" <john@...> wrote:
            >
            > wasting a panel sucks. And what's up with the text, "...make
            > a test of your trait using its own level as the difficulty."?
            > Why not say roll the dice and if you get 0 or better it works?


            That's messed up, too. That's reminiscent of the old Vampire rules,
            where the better you were at something, the more likely you were to
            "botch" the roll. We haven't really been using power stunts yet, but I
            suspect we'll pick a static number for people to roll against. 3 or 5,
            maybe. Those seem to be common default difficulty numbers.


            > An archer with a quiver full of regular arrows might be able to
            > stunt a bind by declaring how the arrows pin the target's clothes
            > to the wall, or stun a target by removing the arrow head, but not
            > stunt an Affliction to gas the target to sleep.


            Ah, I see where you're coming from. I hadn't thought of it that way.
            Thanks.

            Cool Arcane Archer, btw.


            Kind regards,
            Brandon Blackmoor

            --
            bblackmoor@...
            2011-06-16
          • abesapiens
            ... My experience is to the contrary. It makes the players happy and it speeds up play. My villains pay determination to the players when they stunt too, and I
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Nuncheon" <drnuncheon@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Jun 16, 2011, at 1:23 PM, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
              >
              > > "If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination
              > > to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own
              > > level as the difficulty. If the test fails, so does the stunt,
              > > and nothing happens."
              > >
              > > 1) Do GMs really make people spend Determination and then get nothing
              > > for it? That seems pretty messed up to me.
              > >
              > True, but, we have already established that your group ought to be increasing the Determination flow. It hurts a lot more to "waste" Determination when you're getting 1 per session than it does when you might wind up getting (and spending) 10.
              >
              > Turning Determination into an automatic success might make it too powerful.

              My experience is to the contrary. It makes the players happy and it speeds up play. My villains pay determination to the players when they stunt too, and I don't want to roll for that either.

              Cheers!

              John Powell
            • Brandon Blackmoor
              On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:08 -0400, Dr. Nuncheon ... It wouldn t make the attack (or whatever) itself automatically successful, just the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:08 -0400, "Dr. Nuncheon" <drnuncheon@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > True, but, we have already established that your group
                > ought to be increasing the Determination flow. [...]
                > Turning Determination into an automatic success might
                > make it too powerful.


                It wouldn't make the attack (or whatever) itself automatically
                successful, just the opportunity to make the attempt. Just because you
                whip up an off-the-cuff sleep spell doesn't mean the ogre goes to sleep.


                > As a GM, if you come to me wanting to stunt off of your Blast
                > power which is defined as a bow and arrow, I am going to limit
                > you to stunts that are logical with a bow and arrow. You could
                > nail someone to a wall by their cape, cut something or disarm
                > someone at range, etc. But if you say "smoke bomb arrow" I'm
                > going to say no.


                Right. I get where you are coming from. I'd been assuming power stunts,
                by default, were more flexible. But what you say makes sense. Thanks.


                Kind regards,
                Brandon Blackmoor

                --
                bblackmoor@...
                2011-06-16
              • abesapiens
                ... Yeah - sorry it wasn t clear. I wasn t saying that spending Determination made the action an auto-success, just that spending the point made you
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:08 -0400, "Dr. Nuncheon" <drnuncheon@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > True, but, we have already established that your group
                  > > ought to be increasing the Determination flow. [...]
                  > > Turning Determination into an automatic success might
                  > > make it too powerful.
                  >
                  >
                  > It wouldn't make the attack (or whatever) itself automatically
                  > successful, just the opportunity to make the attempt. Just because you
                  > whip up an off-the-cuff sleep spell doesn't mean the ogre goes to sleep.
                  >

                  Yeah - sorry it wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that spending Determination made the action an auto-success, just that spending the point made you automatically able to do the stunt. The attack or effect roll may still fail.

                  John Powell
                • Soylent Green
                  We dropped the extra test for make a Stunt work. Stunts are fun. A cool stunt can really set the tone of the evening so I rather not discourage them. You still
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                    We dropped the extra test for make a Stunt work. Stunts are fun. A cool stunt can really set the tone of the evening so I rather not discourage them.

                    You still have to make the attack roll (or whatever test that applies to what you wanted to do with the Stunt) and it still costs a DP.  


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: bblackmoor@...
                    Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:23:12 -0400
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] powers stunts

                     
                    "If the GM gives you the go ahead, spend a point of Determination
                    to attempt the stunt and make a test of your trait using its own
                    level as the difficulty. If the test fails, so does the stunt,
                    and nothing happens."

                    1) Do GMs really make people spend Determination and then get nothing
                    for it? That seems pretty messed up to me.

                    2) If any power can be used for a Power Stunt, and if a character with
                    the Wizardry power has to jump through all the same hoops as someone
                    with, say, a bow and arrow, then what's the advantage of Wizardry when
                    it comes to firing a smoke-grenade-arrow? I can see how Wizardry would
                    work for a Dr. Strange or an unusually creative Green Lantern (most
                    Green Lanterns just make big green fists), because they really can do
                    anything, but I am still having trouble seeing how one would make up a
                    Green Arrow type character. Wouldn't Green Arrow be better off just
                    having Blast, and putting those other points (or rolled powers,
                    whatever) into Determination so he can have plenty of trick arrows?

                    Kind regards,
                    Brandon Blackmoor

                    --
                    bblackmoor@...
                    2011-06-16

                  • Mike Olson
                    ... That s the way to go, IMO. --Mike
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                      On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:


                      We dropped the extra test for make a Stunt work. Stunts are fun. A cool stunt can really set the tone of the evening so I rather not discourage them.

                      That's the way to go, IMO.

                      --Mike
                    • Brandon Blackmoor
                      On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:33 +0100, Soylent Green ... Also: when s the last time Batman reached for a Bat-rebreather in his utility belt,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                        On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:33 +0100, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > We dropped the extra test for make a Stunt work. Stunts are fun. A cool
                        > stunt can really set the tone of the evening so I rather not discourage
                        > them.


                        Also: when's the last time Batman reached for a Bat-rebreather in his
                        utility belt, or Green Arrow reached for a fire-supprsssion-arrow, and
                        went, "Oops, I forgot to pack it!" It just doesn't happen.

                        The problem is that the game system doesn't distinguish between "big
                        (yet finite) bag of tricks that I always carry with me" and "I can
                        *probably* do *anything*, if you give me a minute to work on it". Those
                        really are two quite different things.


                        Kind regards,
                        Brandon Blackmoor

                        --
                        bblackmoor@...
                        2011-06-16
                      • Tim K.
                        ... Honestly, I don t think the game is meant to split that difference. Its a little looser than that, sure there are games that draw that line but no all of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 16, 2011
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                          > Also: when's the last time Batman reached for a Bat-rebreather in his
                          > utility belt, or Green Arrow reached for a fire-supprsssion-arrow, and
                          > went, "Oops, I forgot to pack it!" It just doesn't happen.
                          >
                          > The problem is that the game system doesn't distinguish between "big
                          > (yet finite) bag of tricks that I always carry with me" and "I can
                          > *probably* do *anything*, if you give me a minute to work on it". Those
                          > really are two quite different things.
                          >
                          >
                          > Kind regards,
                          > Brandon Blackmoor

                          Honestly, I don't think the game is meant to split that difference. Its
                          a little looser than that, sure there are games that draw that line but
                          no all of them do.
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