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Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on

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  • Benzedrine Sneezer
    What is it about game rule books and no index - kinda essential, wouldn t you think! ICONS is not alone. Come on publishers, get your act together and give us
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 12, 2011
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      What is it about game rule books and no index - kinda essential, wouldn't you think! ICONS is not alone. Come on publishers, get your act together and give us an index!


      From: Brandon Blackmoor <bblackmoor@...>
      To: Icons Discussion List <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011, 5:20
      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on

       
      On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 03:08 +0000, "Chad" <felixvesper@...> wrote:
      >
      > If Adamant ever re-does the rulebook I hope they roll those
      > in. Now I'm looking forward to giving the game another chance.

      I am sure I am not alone (in fact, I know I'm not) in hoping that the
      next edition of ICONS gets a thorough rewrite and reorganization, as
      well as an index. It is a rare game session that someone here doesn't
      complain about one or the other, or both.

      Here's a well-worn example: what page is major/massive success explained
      on? Hint: it's at least three pages, and each of them is at least 20
      pages away from its nearest neighbor. If you want to check how
      major/massive success works, you need to find *all* of those pages.
      Without an index.

      That one comes up nearly every game, but we still find a new one about
      every other game. It's almost to the point where it's a running gag. :)

      Kind regards,
      Brandon Blackmoor

      --
      bblackmoor@...
      2011-06-13


    • ;ohn McMullen
      A proper useful index is expensive to create--it contains synonyms as well as terms in the text. A listing of text terms isn t enough. So I can see why a
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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        A proper useful index is expensive to create--it contains synonyms as well as terms in the text. A listing of text terms isn't enough. So I can see why a publisher might not do it.

        I still want one, though.

        Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network


        From: Benzedrine Sneezer <evil.genius13@...>
        Sender: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:03:40 +0100 (BST)
        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com<icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
        ReplyTo: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on

        What is it about game rule books and no index - kinda essential, wouldn't you think! ICONS is not alone. Come on publishers, get your act together and give us an index!


        From: Brandon Blackmoor <bblackmoor@...>
        To: Icons Discussion List <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011, 5:20
        Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on

         
        On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 03:08 +0000, "Chad" <felixvesper@...> wrote:
        >
        > If Adamant ever re-does the rulebook I hope they roll those
        > in. Now I'm looking forward to giving the game another chance.

        I am sure I am not alone (in fact, I know I'm not) in hoping that the
        next edition of ICONS gets a thorough rewrite and reorganization, as
        well as an index. It is a rare game session that someone here doesn't
        complain about one or the other, or both.

        Here's a well-worn example: what page is major/massive success explained
        on? Hint: it's at least three pages, and each of them is at least 20
        pages away from its nearest neighbor. If you want to check how
        major/massive success works, you need to find *all* of those pages.
        Without an index.

        That one comes up nearly every game, but we still find a new one about
        every other game. It's almost to the point where it's a running gag. :)

        Kind regards,
        Brandon Blackmoor

        --
        bblackmoor@...
        2011-06-13


      • dirkgentry2000
        without getting negative, I can say that I have heard these criticisms from a few different sources over the last year. It d be nice to see an ICONS 2.0 at
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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          without getting negative, I can say that I have heard these criticisms from a few different sources over the last year.
          It'd be nice to see an ICONS 2.0 at some point that addresses them

          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, ";ohn McMullen" <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
          >
          > A proper useful index is expensive to create--it contains synonyms as well as terms in the text. A listing of text terms isn't enough. So I can see why a publisher might not do it.
          >
          > I still want one, though.
          > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Benzedrine Sneezer <evil.genius13@...>
          > Sender: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:03:40
          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com<icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
          > Reply-To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on
          >
          > What is it about game rule books and no index - kinda essential, wouldn't you think! ICONS is not alone. Come on publishers, get your act together and give us an index!
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Brandon Blackmoor <bblackmoor@...>
          > To: Icons Discussion List <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011, 5:20
          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on
          >
          >
          >  
          > On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 03:08 +0000, "Chad" <felixvesper@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > If Adamant ever re-does the rulebook I hope they roll those
          > > in. Now I'm looking forward to giving the game another chance.
          >
          > I am sure I am not alone (in fact, I know I'm not) in hoping that the
          > next edition of ICONS gets a thorough rewrite and reorganization, as
          > well as an index. It is a rare game session that someone here doesn't
          > complain about one or the other, or both.
          >
          > Here's a well-worn example: what page is major/massive success explained
          > on? Hint: it's at least three pages, and each of them is at least 20
          > pages away from its nearest neighbor. If you want to check how
          > major/massive success works, you need to find *all* of those pages.
          > Without an index.
          >
          > That one comes up nearly every game, but we still find a new one about
          > every other game. It's almost to the point where it's a running gag. :)
          >
          > Kind regards,
          > Brandon Blackmoor
          >
          > --
          > bblackmoor@...
          > 2011-06-13
          >
        • dirkgentry2000
          since you cross-posted - I ll cross reply :) ICONS has been very good to Vigilance Press. Our WW2 line has been very successful for you. Of course, we got very
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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            since you cross-posted - I'll cross reply :)

            ICONS has been very good to Vigilance Press. Our WW2 line has been very successful for you.

            Of course, we got very lucky. Support for ICONS from other third parties and Adamant was surprising light for a few months and we were able to have the market all to ourselves for quite a while.

            Currently we're finishing up our WW2 line and designing a line of short adventures called Action Scenes.

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I posted this on rpgnet, but actually I probably should have gone here so forgive the cross post.
            > I just kind of noticed the, depending how you count it, Icons has been out for a year now. It's had a big on my gaming, but that might just be me.
            > Has it been a success commercially, critically or even personally?
            > Are people still playing it?
            > What about the support? And what is coming next?
            > In my own gaming circle it's been, to put in Icons terms, a "Massive Success". One year ago I was the guy introducing Icons to my group, just another game in a long series of games we've tried. Now we are hooked. They all want to run it if they haven't done so already. I've not seen this in our group such widespread enthusiasm for a game.. well ever.
            > One of the most common comments about Icons is that "it's Fate finally done right". I accept that technically that might not be quite correct, but the sentiment behind the sentiment is pretty clear. Icons certainly struck a chord.
            >
          • Gareth-Michael Skarka
            WIth regards to the lack of an index in ICONS: In this case, it was a simple matter of space. We had 128 pages (as solicited to the retail stores months
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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              WIth regards to the lack of an index in ICONS: In this case, it was
              a simple matter of space. We had 128 pages (as solicited to the
              retail stores months in advance -- an estimate, but one we have to
              adhere to). Once layout came around, we released we were squeezed
              for space, and upon completion, had no room for an index.

              THat simple. No malice or error, just a matter of available space.

              -Gareth
            • Dr. Nuncheon
              I guess you will just need to make Icons 2e 144 pages and pack in some extra awesome! On two occasions I have been asked, – Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                I guess you will just need to make Icons 2e 144 pages and pack in some extra awesome!

                "On two occasions I have been asked, – 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?'...I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage

                On Jun 13, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Gareth-Michael Skarka <gms@...> wrote:

                 

                WIth regards to the lack of an index in ICONS: In this case, it was
                a simple matter of space. We had 128 pages (as solicited to the
                retail stores months in advance -- an estimate, but one we have to
                adhere to). Once layout came around, we released we were squeezed
                for space, and upon completion, had no room for an index.

                THat simple. No malice or error, just a matter of available space.

                -Gareth

              • dirkgentry2000
                That sentence should have read: our WW line has been very successful for us. that s what I get for posting too early in the morning :)
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                  That sentence should have read: "our WW line has been very successful for us."

                  that's what I get for posting too early in the morning :)

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "dirkgentry2000" <dirkgentry2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > since you cross-posted - I'll cross reply :)
                  >
                  > ICONS has been very good to Vigilance Press. Our WW2 line has been very successful for you.
                  >
                  > Of course, we got very lucky. Support for ICONS from other third parties and Adamant was surprising light for a few months and we were able to have the market all to ourselves for quite a while.
                  >
                  > Currently we're finishing up our WW2 line and designing a line of short adventures called Action Scenes.
                  >
                  > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I posted this on rpgnet, but actually I probably should have gone here so forgive the cross post.
                  > > I just kind of noticed the, depending how you count it, Icons has been out for a year now. It's had a big on my gaming, but that might just be me.
                  > > Has it been a success commercially, critically or even personally?
                  > > Are people still playing it?
                  > > What about the support? And what is coming next?
                  > > In my own gaming circle it's been, to put in Icons terms, a "Massive Success". One year ago I was the guy introducing Icons to my group, just another game in a long series of games we've tried. Now we are hooked. They all want to run it if they haven't done so already. I've not seen this in our group such widespread enthusiasm for a game.. well ever.
                  > > One of the most common comments about Icons is that "it's Fate finally done right". I accept that technically that might not be quite correct, but the sentiment behind the sentiment is pretty clear. Icons certainly struck a chord.
                  > >
                  >
                • Soylent Green
                  I m sure it s been successful for us too! To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: dirkgentry2000@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:13:45 +0000 Subject:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                    I'm sure it's been successful for us too!


                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: dirkgentry2000@...
                    Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:13:45 +0000
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: Icons one year on

                     
                    That sentence should have read: "our WW line has been very successful for us."

                    that's what I get for posting too early in the morning :)

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "dirkgentry2000" <dirkgentry2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > since you cross-posted - I'll cross reply :)
                    >
                    > ICONS has been very good to Vigilance Press. Our WW2 line has been very successful for you.
                    >
                    > Of course, we got very lucky. Support for ICONS from other third parties and Adamant was surprising light for a few months and we were able to have the market all to ourselves for quite a while.
                    >
                    > Currently we're finishing up our WW2 line and designing a line of short adventures called Action Scenes.
                    >
                    > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I posted this on rpgnet, but actually I probably should have gone here so forgive the cross post.
                    > > I just kind of noticed the, depending how you count it, Icons has been out for a year now. It's had a big on my gaming, but that might just be me.
                    > > Has it been a success commercially, critically or even personally?
                    > > Are people still playing it?
                    > > What about the support? And what is coming next?
                    > > In my own gaming circle it's been, to put in Icons terms, a "Massive Success". One year ago I was the guy introducing Icons to my group, just another game in a long series of games we've tried. Now we are hooked. They all want to run it if they haven't done so already. I've not seen this in our group such widespread enthusiasm for a game.. well ever.
                    > > One of the most common comments about Icons is that "it's Fate finally done right". I accept that technically that might not be quite correct, but the sentiment behind the sentiment is pretty clear. Icons certainly struck a chord.
                    > >
                    >


                  • Tim K.
                    ... I understand that, mind you, my most recent game had the darndest best Index I could write. But I wasn t soliciting them in advance, just POD and PDF at
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                      On 6/13/2011 9:28 AM, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:
                      > WIth regards to the lack of an index in ICONS: In this case, it was
                      > a simple matter of space. We had 128 pages (as solicited to the
                      > retail stores months in advance -- an estimate, but one we have to
                      > adhere to). Once layout came around, we released we were squeezed
                      > for space, and upon completion, had no room for an index.
                      >
                      > THat simple. No malice or error, just a matter of available space.
                      >
                      > -Gareth

                      I understand that, mind you, my most recent game had the darndest best
                      Index I could write. But I wasn't soliciting them in advance, just POD
                      and PDF at that time, so I had the option.
                    • Tim K.
                      ... Heh, if I weren t a poor game writer myself, I d own them all because I think they would be very successful for me!
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                        On 6/13/2011 10:13 AM, dirkgentry2000 wrote:
                        > That sentence should have read: "our WW line has been very successful for us."
                        >
                        > that's what I get for posting too early in the morning :)

                        Heh, if I weren't a poor game writer myself, I'd own them all because I
                        think they would be very successful for me!
                      • eric troup
                        Yes, and here s hoping if it does get done, in addition to re-organizing, could we please have more rules clarifications/examples? Please? Pretty please?!? ...
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 30, 2011
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                          Yes, and here's hoping if it does get done, in addition to re-organizing, could we please have more rules clarifications/examples? Please? Pretty please?!?


                          On 13 Jun 2011, at 07:47, dirkgentry2000 wrote:

                           

                          without getting negative, I can say that I have heard these criticisms from a few different sources over the last year.
                          It'd be nice to see an ICONS 2.0 at some point that addresses them

                          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, ";ohn McMullen" <jhmcmullen@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > A proper useful index is expensive to create--it contains synonyms as well as terms in the text. A listing of text terms isn't enough. So I can see why a publisher might not do it.
                          >
                          > I still want one, though.
                          > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Benzedrine Sneezer <evil.genius13@...>
                          > Sender: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:03:40
                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com<icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Reply-To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on
                          >
                          > What is it about game rule books and no index - kinda essential, wouldn't you think! ICONS is not alone. Come on publishers, get your act together and give us an index!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Brandon Blackmoor <bblackmoor@...>
                          > To: Icons Discussion List <icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, 13 June 2011, 5:20
                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Icons one year on
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 03:08 +0000, "Chad" <felixvesper@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > If Adamant ever re-does the rulebook I hope they roll those
                          > > in. Now I'm looking forward to giving the game another chance.
                          >
                          > I am sure I am not alone (in fact, I know I'm not) in hoping that the
                          > next edition of ICONS gets a thorough rewrite and reorganization, as
                          > well as an index. It is a rare game session that someone here doesn't
                          > complain about one or the other, or both.
                          >
                          > Here's a well-worn example: what page is major/massive success explained
                          > on? Hint: it's at least three pages, and each of them is at least 20
                          > pages away from its nearest neighbor. If you want to check how
                          > major/massive success works, you need to find *all* of those pages.
                          > Without an index.
                          >
                          > That one comes up nearly every game, but we still find a new one about
                          > every other game. It's almost to the point where it's a running gag. :)
                          >
                          > Kind regards,
                          > Brandon Blackmoor
                          >
                          > --
                          > bblackmoor@...
                          > 2011-06-13
                          >


                        • eric troup
                          Ah. That makes sense. Also could explain lack of examples. I didn t know you had to give the printer a page count in advance. That s got to be frustrating at
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 30, 2011
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                            Ah. That makes sense. Also could explain lack of examples. I didn't know you had to give the printer a page count in advance. That's got to be frustrating at times.

                            On 13 Jun 2011, at 09:28, Gareth-Michael Skarka wrote:

                             

                            WIth regards to the lack of an index in ICONS: In this case, it was
                            a simple matter of space. We had 128 pages (as solicited to the
                            retail stores months in advance -- an estimate, but one we have to
                            adhere to). Once layout came around, we released we were squeezed
                            for space, and upon completion, had no room for an index.

                            THat simple. No malice or error, just a matter of available space.

                            -Gareth


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