Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Some Determination Questions

Expand Messages
  • eric troup
    Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons. Overall, it was great. We didn t get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 5, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons. Overall, it was great. We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter. Some questions about Determination came up.

      First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll? I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

      Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at. In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides. He failed his roll, and did so by five points. He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him. As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over. You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred. Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure? Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again? (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

      We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.
    • Mike Olson
      AFAIK, Determined Effort has to be declared *before* the roll. Also, I d personally allow Determined Effort on a reaction roll. *shrug* Why not? It s not going
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 5, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        AFAIK, Determined Effort has to be declared *before* the roll.

        Also, I'd personally allow Determined Effort on a reaction roll. *shrug* Why not? It's not going to break anything, and it bleeds away a little Determination.

        --Mike


        On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:
        Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons.  Overall, it was great.  We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter.  Some questions about Determination came up.

        First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?  I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

        Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at.  In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides.  He failed his roll, and did so by five points.  He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him.  As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.  You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred.  Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure?  Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again?  (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

        We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.

        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/

        <*> Your email settings:
           Individual Email | Traditional

        <*> To change settings online go to:
           http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/join
           (Yahoo! ID required)

        <*> To change settings via email:
           icons-rpg-digest@yahoogroups.com
           icons-rpg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
           icons-rpg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
           http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


      • Chris Tavares
        As I read the section, it looks like in the case where you ve failed, you only get to use determined effort if you re going to be able to roll again. So the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 5, 2010
        • 0 Attachment

          As I read the section, it looks like in the case where you’ve failed, you only get to use determined effort if you’re going to be able to roll again. So the determined effort rules would kick in on the second attempt, not give you a reroll on the first attempt.

           

          Personally, I’d just say you can use determined effort on any roll you want – let the players decide if it’s important enough to them. But they have to declare determined effort before the roll; determination is not like fate points where they can give you a reroll. I expect it’s not that different in actual use, but it’s a whole lot simpler to understand.

           

          -Chris

           

          From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eric troup
          Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 8:39 PM
          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [icons-rpg] Some Determination Questions

           

           

          Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons. Overall, it was great. We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter. Some questions about Determination came up.

          First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll? I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

          Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at. In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides. He failed his roll, and did so by five points. He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him. As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over. You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred. Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure? Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again? (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

          We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.

        • Steve Kenson
          ... Yes, provided the reaction fits the other requirements of Determined Effort. Fortunately, most reactions are one-chance only type things, so they usually
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            On Jul 6, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Eric Troupe wrote:
            First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?

            Yes, provided the reaction fits the other requirements of Determined Effort. Fortunately, most reactions are one-chance only type things, so they usually do.

            As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.

            Not quite. Determined Effort doesn't prevent the initial failure. Just the opposite: the initial failure (or the pressure of having just one chance) is what allows the hero to make a Determined Effort.

            So the hero in question would fail to pin the Troll (who easily breaks loose) one page. Then, on the next page, the hero could grit his teeth, focus, and say "This time, I'm going to get him!" and make a Determined Effort to try again. That's the idea, anyway.


          • eric troup
            Right, I understand determination has to be declared before the roll. But the book says you can only use determined effort with something you ve already
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Right, I understand determination has to be declared before the roll.  But the book says you can only use determined effort with something you've already failed at, or you'd only get one shot at.  So once you've failed at something and you declare that you want to use Determined Effort on it, do you re-roll that task and work from the new result, or do you simply tag your Aspect and spend determination based on the failed roll you made in the first place?  To me, the first option lines up more with what's written, even though the second option is more like what we're used to from other FATE-ish games.



              On 5 Jul 2010, at 21:07, Mike Olson wrote:

               

              AFAIK, Determined Effort has to be declared *before* the roll.

              Also, I'd personally allow Determined Effort on a reaction roll. *shrug* Why not? It's not going to break anything, and it bleeds away a little Determination.

              --Mike


              On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@sbcglobal. net> wrote:
              Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons.  Overall, it was great.  We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter.  Some questions about Determination came up.

              First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?  I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

              Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at.  In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides.  He failed his roll, and did so by five points.  He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him.  As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.  You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred.  Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure?  Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again?  (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

              We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.

              ------------ --------- --------- ------

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                 http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/icons- rpg/

              <*> Your email settings:
                 Individual Email | Traditional

              <*> To change settings online go to:
                 http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/icons- rpg/join
                 (Yahoo! ID required)

              <*> To change settings via email:
                 icons-rpg-digest@ yahoogroups. com
                 icons-rpg-fullfeatu red@yahoogroups. com

              <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                 icons-rpg-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com

              <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                 http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/




            • eric troup
              Aaaaaaaaah, okay. Thanks. The clarification is most appreciated.
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Aaaaaaaaah, okay.  Thanks.  The clarification is most appreciated.


                On 6 Jul 2010, at 09:25, Steve Kenson wrote:

                 

                On Jul 6, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Eric Troupe wrote:
                First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?

                Yes, provided the reaction fits the other requirements of Determined Effort. Fortunately, most reactions are one-chance only type things, so they usually do.

                As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.

                Not quite. Determined Effort doesn't prevent the initial failure. Just the opposite: the initial failure (or the pressure of having just one chance) is what allows the hero to make a Determined Effort.

                So the hero in question would fail to pin the Troll (who easily breaks loose) one page. Then, on the next page, the hero could grit his teeth, focus, and say "This time, I'm going to get him!" and make a Determined Effort to try again. That's the idea, anyway.




              • Mike Olson
                Neither -- as per Steve, there s no altering a roll that s *already* failed. You d have to try again, in *another panel*, with a new attempt (and roll). Some
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Neither -- as per Steve, there's no altering a roll that's *already* failed. You'd have to try again, in *another panel*, with a new attempt (and roll).

                  Some of the confusion may be in thinking of Icons' aspects in FATE terms, when they really don't work the same at all (by intent, from what Steve's said). There's no narrative component to Determined Effort -- no "Turns out I did better than the dice say I did" -- as evidenced by the fact that you don't declare DE after the roll, only before.

                  Sorry if I'm being pedantic here, or misunderstanding the issue. I know that, for myself, the biggest disconnects have been trying to see Icons in FATE terms, when they're really quite different. Aspects may be conceptually similar between the two, but in terms of actual execution they're miles apart.

                  --Mike


                  On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:16 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:


                  Right, I understand determination has to be declared before the roll.  But the book says you can only use determined effort with something you've already failed at, or you'd only get one shot at.  So once you've failed at something and you declare that you want to use Determined Effort on it, do you re-roll that task and work from the new result, or do you simply tag your Aspect and spend determination based on the failed roll you made in the first place?  To me, the first option lines up more with what's written, even though the second option is more like what we're used to from other FATE-ish games.



                  On 5 Jul 2010, at 21:07, Mike Olson wrote:

                   

                  AFAIK, Determined Effort has to be declared *before* the roll.

                  Also, I'd personally allow Determined Effort on a reaction roll. *shrug* Why not? It's not going to break anything, and it bleeds away a little Determination.

                  --Mike


                  On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@...> wrote:
                  Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons.  Overall, it was great.  We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter.  Some questions about Determination came up.

                  First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?  I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

                  Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at.  In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides.  He failed his roll, and did so by five points.  He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him.  As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.  You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred.  Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure?  Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again?  (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

                  We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/

                  <*> Your email settings:
                     Individual Email | Traditional

                  <*> To change settings online go to:
                     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/icons-rpg/join
                     (Yahoo! ID required)

                  <*> To change settings via email:
                     icons-rpg-digest@yahoogroups.com
                     icons-rpg-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                     icons-rpg-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







                • eric troup
                  Yes, they are, and I thought I understood that. But it looks like I fell into that trap myself. *Sigh* Ah well. Knowin is half the battle, and all that.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 6, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Yes, they are, and I thought I understood that.  But it looks like I fell into that trap myself.  *Sigh*  Ah well. Knowin' is half the battle, and all that.

                    Thanks for being pedantic.  It helped. ;-)
                    On 6 Jul 2010, at 13:32, Mike Olson wrote:

                     

                    Neither -- as per Steve, there's no altering a roll that's *already* failed. You'd have to try again, in *another panel*, with a new attempt (and roll).

                    Some of the confusion may be in thinking of Icons' aspects in FATE terms, when they really don't work the same at all (by intent, from what Steve's said). There's no narrative component to Determined Effort -- no "Turns out I did better than the dice say I did" -- as evidenced by the fact that you don't declare DE after the roll, only before.

                    Sorry if I'm being pedantic here, or misunderstanding the issue. I know that, for myself, the biggest disconnects have been trying to see Icons in FATE terms, when they're really quite different. Aspects may be conceptually similar between the two, but in terms of actual execution they're miles apart.

                    --Mike


                    On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:16 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@sbcglobal. net> wrote:


                    Right, I understand determination has to be declared before the roll.  But the book says you can only use determined effort with something you've already failed at, or you'd only get one shot at.  So once you've failed at something and you declare that you want to use Determined Effort on it, do you re-roll that task and work from the new result, or do you simply tag your Aspect and spend determination based on the failed roll you made in the first place?  To me, the first option lines up more with what's written, even though the second option is more like what we're used to from other FATE-ish games.



                    On 5 Jul 2010, at 21:07, Mike Olson wrote:

                     

                    AFAIK, Determined Effort has to be declared *before* the roll.

                    Also, I'd personally allow Determined Effort on a reaction roll. *shrug* Why not? It's not going to break anything, and it bleeds away a little Determination.

                    --Mike


                    On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 8:39 PM, eric troup <yakkoman@sbcglobal. net> wrote:
                    Well, my group just finished our first session of Icons.  Overall, it was great.  We didn't get very far at all, but that was mostly because we had a lot of pre-game banter.  Some questions about Determination came up.

                    First, can Determined Effort be used on a reaction roll?  I ruled no, but I'd like an official ruling on this.

                    Second, and this one did not get an unofficial ruling; we just tabled it till next session ... The rules state that Determined Effort can only be used if the action is something you already failed at, or something you only have one shot at.  In the scenario, the involved character was trying to pin The Troll's arms at his sides.  He failed his roll, and did so by five points.  He wanted to use Determination to boost his roll, then thought better of it because the two points he had remaining wouldn't help him.  As I understand the way Determined Effort works, when you fail at something, you can choose to use Determined Effort to retry it, effectively a do-over.  You then tag your aspect, declare what you're shooting for success-wise, and then re-roll the task as though the first time hadn't occurred.  Is this right, or is he stuck modifying that result from the failure?  Or would he have to wait till the next panel to try again?  (I figured this was something he could try again, because the Troll wasn't exactly going anywhere.)

                    We looked through the book, but couldn't find anything in the Determination section to answer these questions.

                    ------------ --------- --------- ------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                       http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/icons- rpg/

                    <*> Your email settings:
                       Individual Email | Traditional

                    <*> To change settings online go to:
                       http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/icons- rpg/join
                       (Yahoo! ID required)

                    <*> To change settings via email:
                       icons-rpg-digest@ yahoogroups. com
                       icons-rpg-fullfeatu red@yahoogroups. com

                    <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                       icons-rpg-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com

                    <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                       http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/









                  • robert fv
                    Does anyone know where we ll be able to purchase the print version of the game online? Or do we have to order from our FLGS? I haven t seen the print version
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 9, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Does anyone know where we'll be able to purchase the print version of the game online? Or do we have to order from our FLGS? I haven't seen the print version online anywhere yet.

                      Thanks,
                      Robert

                    • Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer
                      Amazon has it for pre-order. It is due to be released [by them] on Tues.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 9, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Amazon has it for pre-order. It is due to be released [by them] on Tues.

                        On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 8:22 AM, robert fv <robtfv@...> wrote:
                         

                        Does anyone know where we'll be able to purchase the print version of the game online? Or do we have to order from our FLGS? I haven't seen the print version online anywhere yet.

                        Thanks,
                        Robert


                      • dan caithamer
                        I  ordered my version thru my local comic shop via previews about two issues back. If you have a comic shop in your area i think they might be able to back
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 9, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I  ordered my version thru my local comic shop via previews about two issues back. If you have a comic shop in your area i think they might be able to back order it.. I hope this helps and I know how you feel because Im getting incredibly anxious to start randomly  rolling characters again. :)
                           
                          Note - this is just the pre order and it hasn't hit the shelves yet..
                           
                           Note two - I hope Icons produces more print products..
                           one) my computer skills are horrible  two) I allways get script errors on my pc whenever i use pdf files. My pc is very old and i havent the resources to buy  i new one any time soon.
                           


                          --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer <curtmeyer@...> wrote:

                          From: Curt "Cripplepotomus" Meyer <curtmeyer@...>
                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Where to buy?
                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 11:53 AM

                           
                          Amazon has it for pre-order. It is due to be released [by them] on Tues.

                          On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 8:22 AM, robert fv <robtfv@yahoo. com> wrote:
                           
                          Does anyone know where we'll be able to purchase the print version of the game online? Or do we have to order from our FLGS? I haven't seen the print version online anywhere yet.

                          Thanks,
                          Robert



                        • Hollis McCray
                          ... People who preordered are starting to get their copies. So I m presuming that distributors will have copies soon. -- Hollis McCray aka The Fifth Wanderer
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 9, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:22 AM, robert fv <robtfv@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Does anyone know where we'll be able to purchase the print version of the game online? Or do we have to order from our FLGS? I haven't seen the print version online anywhere yet.

                            People who preordered are starting to get their copies. So I'm
                            presuming that distributors will have copies soon.
                            --
                            Hollis McCray
                            aka The Fifth Wanderer

                            ascensionschild@...

                            "GMing is like herding cats. Wet, angry cats who are pumped full of
                            LSD and methamphetamines." - Stolen from some forum sig somewhere
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.