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Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

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  • Brandon Blackmoor
    On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, eric troup ... What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero successfully dodge,
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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      On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
      > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
      > Prowess of 6.


      What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
      successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?


      Kind regards,
      Brandon Blackmoor

      --
      bblackmoor@...
      2011-02-04
    • abesapiens
      ... A result of zero or better is always a success for the hero, according to the Evading and Dodging rules (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58). So as someone else mentioned,
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
        > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
        > > Prowess of 6.
        >
        >
        > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
        > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

        A result of zero or better is always a success for the hero, according to the Evading and Dodging rules (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58). So as someone else mentioned, in an even match heroes hit 58.33% of the time and villains miss 58.33% of the time.

        John

        John Powell
      • Soylent Green
        It s a hit. Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC s turn. What is being
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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          It's a hit.
           
          Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
           
          Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
           
          If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
          If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.

           

          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          From: bblackmoor@...
          Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

           
          On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
          > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
          > Prowess of 6.

          What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
          successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

          Kind regards,
          Brandon Blackmoor

          --
          bblackmoor@...
          2011-02-04

        • abesapiens
          Not according to the RAW. It s a fine house rule though. John John Powell
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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            Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

            John

            John Powell

            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > It's a hit.
            >
            > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
            >
            > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
            >
            > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
            > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            > From: bblackmoor@...
            > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
            > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
            > > Prowess of 6.
            >
            > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
            > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
            >
            > Kind regards,
            > Brandon Blackmoor
            >
            > --
            > bblackmoor@...
            > 2011-02-04
            >
          • Soylent Green
            If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns? To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: john@jetcity.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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              If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
               

              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              From: john@...
              Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

               
              Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

              John

              John Powell

              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > It's a hit.
              >
              > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
              >
              > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
              >
              > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
              > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
              > From: bblackmoor@...
              > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
              > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
              > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
              > > Prowess of 6.
              >
              > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
              > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
              >
              > Kind regards,
              > Brandon Blackmoor
              >
              > --
              > bblackmoor@...
              > 2011-02-04
              >


            • Brandon Blackmoor
              On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, Soylent Green ... That is what I was wondering. Kind regards, Brandon Blackmoor --
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                > never suffer from slams or stuns?


                That is what I was wondering.


                Kind regards,
                Brandon Blackmoor

                --
                bblackmoor@...
                2011-02-04
              • abesapiens
                (ICONS, pg. 70) Slamming If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target s Strength against
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                  (ICONS, pg. 70)
                  Slamming
                  If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                  Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                  Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                  Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                  Stunning
                  If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                  Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                  Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                  Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                  ---------

                  Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                  Hope this helps!

                  John Powell

                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                  > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                  >
                  >
                  > That is what I was wondering.
                  >
                  >
                  > Kind regards,
                  > Brandon Blackmoor
                  >
                  > --
                  > bblackmoor@...
                  > 2011-02-04
                  >
                • Soylent Green
                  I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                    I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                     
                    Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                     
                    "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                    success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                    With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                     
                    Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                     
                    Does that make sense?
                     

                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: john@...
                    Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                     
                    (ICONS, pg. 70)
                    Slamming
                    If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                    Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                    Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                    Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                    Stunning
                    If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                    Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                    Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                    Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                    ---------

                    Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                    Hope this helps!

                    John Powell

                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                    > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                    >
                    >
                    > That is what I was wondering.
                    >
                    >
                    > Kind regards,
                    > Brandon Blackmoor
                    >
                    > --
                    > bblackmoor@...
                    > 2011-02-04
                    >


                  • Brandon Blackmoor
                    Huh. The slamming and stunning question is actually on top of the question of what happens when the hero rolls exactly the villain s attacking ability. Even if
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                      Huh. The slamming and stunning question is actually on top of the
                      question of what happens when the hero rolls exactly the villain's
                      attacking ability. Even if a tie always goes to the hero, no matter who
                      is attacking, what determines slams and stuns?

                      How about if I add "Major Failure" (-3 to -4 effect) and "Massive
                      Failure" (-5 or worse effect) when a character is being attacked, and
                      use those for determining Slamming and Stunning of the hero?

                      Would that break or overcomplicate anything?


                      Kind regards,
                      Brandon Blackmoor

                      --
                      bblackmoor@...
                      2011-02-04
                    • abesapiens
                      When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules: (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58) Evading ® You use your Prowess to
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                        When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules:

                        (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58)
                        Evading ®
                        You use your Prowess to evade attacks through a series of feints and maneuvers. Evading only works against Prowess and Strength attacks, not Coordination (ranged) attacks. Test Prowess against a difficulty of the attacker's ability level. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to evade an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                        Dodging ®
                        Dodging is the art of not being there when an attack arrives. Roll a Coordination test against the attacker's ability. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to dodge an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                        ----
                        If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major success against you, and by extension if you fail by 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against you.

                        Did that help?

                        John Powell

                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                        >
                        > Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                        >
                        > "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target's Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                        > success, you deal the attack's damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                        > With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                        >
                        > Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                        >
                        > Does that make sense?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: john@...
                        > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                        > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > (ICONS, pg. 70)
                        > Slamming
                        > If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.
                        >
                        > Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.
                        >
                        > Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).
                        >
                        > Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.
                        >
                        > Stunning
                        > If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.
                        >
                        > Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.
                        >
                        > Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.
                        >
                        > Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.
                        >
                        > ---------
                        >
                        > Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.
                        >
                        > Hope this helps!
                        >
                        > John Powell
                        >
                        > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                        > > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > That is what I was wondering.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Kind regards,
                        > > Brandon Blackmoor
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > bblackmoor@
                        > > 2011-02-04
                        > >
                        >
                      • Brandon Blackmoor
                        ... Yes! New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess attacks? Kind regards, Brandon Blackmoor -- bblackmoor@blackgate.net
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                          On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:51 +0000, "abesapiens" <john@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major
                          > success against you, and by extension if you fail by
                          > 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against
                          > you. Did that help?


                          Yes!

                          New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess
                          attacks?


                          Kind regards,
                          Brandon Blackmoor

                          --
                          bblackmoor@...
                          2011-02-04
                        • Soylent Green
                          Yes, I see it now. I didn t think there was a margin of failure concept. Thanks for sorting that one out. To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: john@jetcity.net
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                            Yes, I see it now. I didn't think there was a margin of failure concept. Thanks for sorting that one out.
                             

                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            From: john@...
                            Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:51:23 +0000
                            Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                             
                            When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules:

                            (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58)
                            Evading ®
                            You use your Prowess to evade attacks through a series of feints and maneuvers. Evading only works against Prowess and Strength attacks, not Coordination (ranged) attacks. Test Prowess against a difficulty of the attacker's ability level. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to evade an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                            Dodging ®
                            Dodging is the art of not being there when an attack arrives. Roll a Coordination test against the attacker's ability. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to dodge an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                            ----
                            If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major success against you, and by extension if you fail by 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against you.

                            Did that help?

                            John Powell

                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                            >
                            > Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                            >
                            > "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target's Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                            > success, you deal the attack's damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                            > With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                            >
                            > Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                            >
                            > Does that make sense?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: john@...
                            > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                            > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > (ICONS, pg. 70)
                            > Slamming
                            > If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.
                            >
                            > Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.
                            >
                            > Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).
                            >
                            > Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.
                            >
                            > Stunning
                            > If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.
                            >
                            > Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.
                            >
                            > Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.
                            >
                            > Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.
                            >
                            > ---------
                            >
                            > Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps!
                            >
                            > John Powell
                            >
                            > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                            > > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > That is what I was wondering.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Kind regards,
                            > > Brandon Blackmoor
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > bblackmoor@
                            > > 2011-02-04
                            > >
                            >


                          • abesapiens
                            Yes - Evading (Prowess) specifically mentions that it is ONLY good against Prowess and Strength attacks. Dodging (Coordination) only mentions attacks, so I
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                              Yes - Evading (Prowess) specifically mentions that it is ONLY good against Prowess and Strength attacks. Dodging (Coordination) only mentions attacks, so I take that to mean it is good against Prowess and Strength attack, as well as ranged attacks.

                              John Powell

                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:

                              > New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess
                              > attacks?
                              >
                              >
                              > Kind regards,
                              > Brandon Blackmoor
                              >
                              > --
                              > bblackmoor@...
                              > 2011-02-04
                              >
                            • eric troup
                              I don t remember what the rules say off the top of my head, and if my memory failed like that in the middle of a game, my judgment call would be to let the
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                I don't remember what the rules say off the top of my head, and if my memory failed like that in the middle of a game, my judgment call would be to let the hero dodge on a tie (They are the heroes, after all).


                                On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:33, Brandon Blackmoor wrote:

                                 

                                On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                > Prowess of 6.

                                What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

                                Kind regards,
                                Brandon Blackmoor

                                --
                                bblackmoor@...
                                2011-02-04


                              • eric troup
                                ... Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don t roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                  On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:58, Soylent Green wrote:

                                   

                                  It's a hit.
                                   
                                  Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.


                                  Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don't roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
                                • eric troup
                                  Not at all. If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned,
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                    Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success.


                                    On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:25, Soylent Green wrote:

                                     

                                    If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                     


                                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: john@...
                                    Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
                                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                     
                                    Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                                    John

                                    John Powell

                                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > It's a hit.
                                    >
                                    > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                                    >
                                    > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                                    >
                                    > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                                    > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: bblackmoor@...
                                    > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                                    > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                    > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                    > > Prowess of 6.
                                    >
                                    > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                    > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                                    >
                                    > Kind regards,
                                    > Brandon Blackmoor
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > bblackmoor@...
                                    > 2011-02-04
                                    >




                                  • eric troup
                                    Okay, in my previous post, where I said Moderate or massive I meant Major or Massive. My bad. But the idea is still the same; I just messed up the
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                      Okay, in my previous post, where I said "Moderate or massive" I meant "Major or Massive."  My bad.  But the idea is still the same; I just messed up the terminology.


                                      On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:44, Soylent Green wrote:

                                       

                                      I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                       
                                      Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                       
                                      "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                      success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                      With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                       
                                      Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                       
                                      Does that make sense?
                                       


                                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: john@...
                                      Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                       
                                      (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                      Slamming
                                      If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                                      Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                                      Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                                      Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                                      Stunning
                                      If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                                      Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                                      Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                                      Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                                      ---------

                                      Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                                      Hope this helps!

                                      John Powell

                                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                      > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > That is what I was wondering.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Kind regards,
                                      > Brandon Blackmoor
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > bblackmoor@...
                                      > 2011-02-04
                                      >




                                    • eric troup
                                      And since I did screw up the terminology earlier, let me reiterate what I said here, so there s no confusion. If an NPC attacks a PC, the PC still rolls dice
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                        And since I did screw up the terminology earlier, let me reiterate what I said here, so there's no confusion.

                                        If an NPC attacks a PC, the PC still rolls dice to manipulate his/her defense score, because players are the only ones to roll dice.  So if the PC's Prowess, after being affected by the die roll, is below the villain's Prowess score enough to warrant a Major or Massive success, the villain has potential to slam or stun the PC.  Then, the Strength vs. Damage test occurs.  Again, the PC rolls dice, and the die result affects his/her Strength for that test.  If the final result means the villain's Damage exceeds the PC's (die-manipulated) Strength enough for a Major or Massive success, then the PC is slammed or stunned.


                                        On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:44, Soylent Green wrote:

                                         

                                        I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                         
                                        Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                         
                                        "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                        success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                        With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                         
                                        Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                         
                                        Does that make sense?
                                         


                                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: john@...
                                        Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                         
                                        (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                        Slamming
                                        If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                                        Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                                        Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                                        Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                                        Stunning
                                        If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                                        Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                                        Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                                        Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                                        ---------

                                        Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                                        Hope this helps!

                                        John Powell

                                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                        > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > That is what I was wondering.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Kind regards,
                                        > Brandon Blackmoor
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > bblackmoor@...
                                        > 2011-02-04
                                        >




                                      • Soylent Green
                                        Not at all. If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned,
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                          "Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success."

                                          That is what I though at as well. But done this was, 0 is still a Moderate Success.

                                          What Abe Sapiens pointed out in the Dodge rules  (on page 58) is that when NPCs attack PCs Slam or Stun is based on the PC's "margin of failure"

                                          So Effectively there shold be two result tables, one for PC Actions and one for PC Reactions. The Reaction table is just my best guess. The rules say the -3 or worse is a Major Failure so I'm guessing there is also a Massive Failure threshold.

                                          PC Actions
                                          0 -2 Moderatae Success
                                          3-4 Major Success
                                          5+ Massive Success

                                          PC Reactions
                                          0+ Success
                                          -1 to  -2 Moderate Failure
                                          -3  to -4 Major Failure
                                          -5 or less Massive Failure


                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: yakkoman@...
                                          Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 10:00:26 -0800
                                          Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                           
                                          Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success.


                                          On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:25, Soylent Green wrote:

                                           
                                          If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                           


                                          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: john@...
                                          Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
                                          Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                           
                                          Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                                          John

                                          John Powell

                                          --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > It's a hit.
                                          >
                                          > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                                          >
                                          > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                                          >
                                          > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                                          > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: bblackmoor@...
                                          > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                                          > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                          > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                          > > Prowess of 6.
                                          >
                                          > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                          > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                                          >
                                          > Kind regards,
                                          > Brandon Blackmoor
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > bblackmoor@...
                                          > 2011-02-04
                                          >





                                        • Soylent Green
                                          I know, I meant to say the total effort for the NPC is 5 and the the total for the PC is 0 (-5 in total). In any event all my objections from Friday withdrawn
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                            I know, I meant to say the total effort for the NPC is 5 and the the total for the PC is 0 (-5 in total).
                                            In any event all my objections from Friday withdrawn as as be has pretty much nailed where I was going wrong.


                                            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: yakkoiman@...
                                            Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:58:23 -0800
                                            Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

                                             


                                            On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:58, Soylent Green wrote:

                                             
                                            It's a hit.
                                             
                                            Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.


                                            Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don't roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
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