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when villains attack

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  • Brandon
    Hello again. I have a question. I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain s power or ability: if the roll
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 3, 2011
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      Hello again. I have a question.

      I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain's power or ability: if the roll equals or exceeds that target number, the hero succeeds.

      But what happens if the villain attacks the hero? The hero rolls... and then what? Does he villain hit if the hero's roll equals or lower than the villain's power or ability? Or does the villain miss if the hero rolls exactly the villain's ability? If so, wouldn't that mean that heroes hit 58% of the time, and villains miss 58% of the time (all things being equal)? That doesn't seem right....

      Thank you for your feedback.


      --
      bblackmoor@...
      2011-02-03
    • emu2020@comcast.net
      If that is how it works it makes a certain amount of sense to me. In the majority of comic book genres, the hero is generally at an advantage in the stories.
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 3, 2011
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        If that is how it works it makes a certain amount of sense to me. In the majority of comic book genres, the hero is generally at an advantage in the stories. This would be reflected in the villains being less effective in their attacks.

         

        I have never read to-hit rolls in RPGs as determining whether you hit or not, but more a matter of whether or not your hit was effective enough to inflict damage. Unless the combat system is detailed and complex enough to take into account all actions in combat - hit, dodge, block, parry, reverse, etc - then a certain amount of abstraction and thematic interpretation would seem to be in order.

         

        -Eli


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Brandon" <bblackmoor@...>
        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2011 7:54:30 PM
        Subject: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

         

        Hello again. I have a question.

        I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain's power or ability: if the roll equals or exceeds that target number, the hero succeeds.

        But what happens if the villain attacks the hero? The hero rolls... and then what? Does he villain hit if the hero's roll equals or lower than the villain's power or ability? Or does the villain miss if the hero rolls exactly the villain's ability? If so, wouldn't that mean that heroes hit 58% of the time, and villains miss 58% of the time (all things being equal)? That doesn't seem right....

        Thank you for your feedback.

      • Chris Tavares
        I vaguely remember Mr. Kenson affirming that the odds are tilted in the players favor, yes. I can t quote exactly, unfortunately. It is what the rules say, and
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 3, 2011
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          I vaguely remember Mr. Kenson affirming that the odds are tilted in the players favor, yes. I can’t quote exactly, unfortunately.

           

          It is what the rules say, and it seems to work pretty well in practice.

           

          -Chris

           

          From: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brandon
          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 7:55 PM
          To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

           

           

          Hello again. I have a question.

          I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain's power or ability: if the roll equals or exceeds that target number, the hero succeeds.

          But what happens if the villain attacks the hero? The hero rolls... and then what? Does he villain hit if the hero's roll equals or lower than the villain's power or ability? Or does the villain miss if the hero rolls exactly the villain's ability? If so, wouldn't that mean that heroes hit 58% of the time, and villains miss 58% of the time (all things being equal)? That doesn't seem right....

          Thank you for your feedback.

          --
          bblackmoor@...
          2011-02-03

        • Soylent Green
          This is the way I understand it. When a NPC attack a PC, even though it the PC that rolls hos dodge, its is still the NPCs attack that is being tested. So a
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 3, 2011
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            This is the way I understand it.  When a NPC attack a PC, even though it the PC that rolls hos dodge, its is still the NPCs attack that is being tested. So a overall result of zero is a Moderate Success for the NPC's attack (and not a Moderate Success on the PC's Dodge).

            Once again, examples in the rules would have helped.


            To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
            From: bblackmoor@...
            Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 03:54:30 +0000
            Subject: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

             
            Hello again. I have a question.

            I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain's power or ability: if the roll equals or exceeds that target number, the hero succeeds.

            But what happens if the villain attacks the hero? The hero rolls... and then what? Does he villain hit if the hero's roll equals or lower than the villain's power or ability? Or does the villain miss if the hero rolls exactly the villain's ability? If so, wouldn't that mean that heroes hit 58% of the time, and villains miss 58% of the time (all things being equal)? That doesn't seem right....

            Thank you for your feedback.

            --
            bblackmoor@...
            2011-02-03


          • eric troup
            When the villain attacks the hero, the player rolls and adds or subtracts the final total from whatever attribute or power level he s using to defend himself,
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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              When the villain attacks the hero, the player rolls and adds or subtracts the final total from whatever attribute or power level he's using to defend himself, and then compares that final number to the villain's attack ability or power.  So, a villain tries to hit a hero.  The villain has a Prowess of 4.  Our defending hero has a Prowess of 6.  Our hero's player rolls dice and rolls rather badly: a 2 on the positive die and a 6 on the negative.  Subtracting 6 from 2 leaves him with -4, so he subtracts 4 from his Prowess of 6, leaving him with a defense score of 2.  He zigged when he should've zagged, and because our nasty villain has a Prowess of 4, our hero's about to take some damage.

              The way I look at this whole players-rol-all-dice thing is this: I pretend there are no dice involved at all, and once I've figured out what numbers would be compared, I just have the player roll dice and add/subtract the total from whatever number is involved on his end.  Makes it much easier to avoid getting caught up in the whole who-rolls-what-when thing.

              Hope this helps.


              On 3 Feb 2011, at 19:54, Brandon wrote:

               

              Hello again. I have a question.

              I understand the process when a hero attacks a villain. The hero rolls against the villain's power or ability: if the roll equals or exceeds that target number, the hero succeeds.

              But what happens if the villain attacks the hero? The hero rolls... and then what? Does he villain hit if the hero's roll equals or lower than the villain's power or ability? Or does the villain miss if the hero rolls exactly the villain's ability? If so, wouldn't that mean that heroes hit 58% of the time, and villains miss 58% of the time (all things being equal)? That doesn't seem right....

              Thank you for your feedback.

              --
              bblackmoor@...
              2011-02-03


            • Brandon Blackmoor
              On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, eric troup ... What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero successfully dodge,
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                > Prowess of 6.


                What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?


                Kind regards,
                Brandon Blackmoor

                --
                bblackmoor@...
                2011-02-04
              • abesapiens
                ... A result of zero or better is always a success for the hero, according to the Evading and Dodging rules (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58). So as someone else mentioned,
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                  > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                  > > Prowess of 6.
                  >
                  >
                  > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                  > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

                  A result of zero or better is always a success for the hero, according to the Evading and Dodging rules (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58). So as someone else mentioned, in an even match heroes hit 58.33% of the time and villains miss 58.33% of the time.

                  John

                  John Powell
                • Soylent Green
                  It s a hit. Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC s turn. What is being
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                    It's a hit.
                     
                    Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                     
                    Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                     
                    If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                    If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.

                     

                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                    From: bblackmoor@...
                    Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

                     
                    On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                    > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                    > Prowess of 6.

                    What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                    successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

                    Kind regards,
                    Brandon Blackmoor

                    --
                    bblackmoor@...
                    2011-02-04

                  • abesapiens
                    Not according to the RAW. It s a fine house rule though. John John Powell
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                      Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                      John

                      John Powell

                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > It's a hit.
                      >
                      > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                      >
                      > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                      >
                      > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                      > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: bblackmoor@...
                      > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                      > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                      > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                      > > Prowess of 6.
                      >
                      > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                      > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                      >
                      > Kind regards,
                      > Brandon Blackmoor
                      >
                      > --
                      > bblackmoor@...
                      > 2011-02-04
                      >
                    • Soylent Green
                      If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns? To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: john@jetcity.net Date: Fri, 4 Feb
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                        If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
                         

                        To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        From: john@...
                        Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
                        Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                         
                        Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                        John

                        John Powell

                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > It's a hit.
                        >
                        > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                        >
                        > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                        >
                        > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                        > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: bblackmoor@...
                        > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                        > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                        > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                        > > Prowess of 6.
                        >
                        > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                        > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                        >
                        > Kind regards,
                        > Brandon Blackmoor
                        >
                        > --
                        > bblackmoor@...
                        > 2011-02-04
                        >


                      • Brandon Blackmoor
                        On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, Soylent Green ... That is what I was wondering. Kind regards, Brandon Blackmoor --
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                          On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                          > never suffer from slams or stuns?


                          That is what I was wondering.


                          Kind regards,
                          Brandon Blackmoor

                          --
                          bblackmoor@...
                          2011-02-04
                        • abesapiens
                          (ICONS, pg. 70) Slamming If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target s Strength against
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                            (ICONS, pg. 70)
                            Slamming
                            If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                            Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                            Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                            Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                            Stunning
                            If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                            Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                            Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                            Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                            ---------

                            Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                            Hope this helps!

                            John Powell

                            --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                            > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                            >
                            >
                            > That is what I was wondering.
                            >
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            > Brandon Blackmoor
                            >
                            > --
                            > bblackmoor@...
                            > 2011-02-04
                            >
                          • Soylent Green
                            I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                              I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                               
                              Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                               
                              "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                              success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                              With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                               
                              Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                               
                              Does that make sense?
                               

                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                              From: john@...
                              Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                               
                              (ICONS, pg. 70)
                              Slamming
                              If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                              Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                              Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                              Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                              Stunning
                              If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                              Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                              Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                              Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                              ---------

                              Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                              Hope this helps!

                              John Powell

                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                              > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                              >
                              >
                              > That is what I was wondering.
                              >
                              >
                              > Kind regards,
                              > Brandon Blackmoor
                              >
                              > --
                              > bblackmoor@...
                              > 2011-02-04
                              >


                            • Brandon Blackmoor
                              Huh. The slamming and stunning question is actually on top of the question of what happens when the hero rolls exactly the villain s attacking ability. Even if
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                                Huh. The slamming and stunning question is actually on top of the
                                question of what happens when the hero rolls exactly the villain's
                                attacking ability. Even if a tie always goes to the hero, no matter who
                                is attacking, what determines slams and stuns?

                                How about if I add "Major Failure" (-3 to -4 effect) and "Massive
                                Failure" (-5 or worse effect) when a character is being attacked, and
                                use those for determining Slamming and Stunning of the hero?

                                Would that break or overcomplicate anything?


                                Kind regards,
                                Brandon Blackmoor

                                --
                                bblackmoor@...
                                2011-02-04
                              • abesapiens
                                When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules: (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58) Evading ® You use your Prowess to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                                  When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules:

                                  (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58)
                                  Evading ®
                                  You use your Prowess to evade attacks through a series of feints and maneuvers. Evading only works against Prowess and Strength attacks, not Coordination (ranged) attacks. Test Prowess against a difficulty of the attacker's ability level. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to evade an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                                  Dodging ®
                                  Dodging is the art of not being there when an attack arrives. Roll a Coordination test against the attacker's ability. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to dodge an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                                  ----
                                  If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major success against you, and by extension if you fail by 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against you.

                                  Did that help?

                                  John Powell

                                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                  >
                                  > Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                  >
                                  > "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target's Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                  > success, you deal the attack's damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                  > With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                  >
                                  > Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                  >
                                  > Does that make sense?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: john@...
                                  > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                  > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                  > Slamming
                                  > If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.
                                  >
                                  > Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.
                                  >
                                  > Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).
                                  >
                                  > Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.
                                  >
                                  > Stunning
                                  > If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.
                                  >
                                  > Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.
                                  >
                                  > Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.
                                  >
                                  > Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.
                                  >
                                  > ---------
                                  >
                                  > Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.
                                  >
                                  > Hope this helps!
                                  >
                                  > John Powell
                                  >
                                  > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                  > > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > That is what I was wondering.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Kind regards,
                                  > > Brandon Blackmoor
                                  > >
                                  > > --
                                  > > bblackmoor@
                                  > > 2011-02-04
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Brandon Blackmoor
                                  ... Yes! New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess attacks? Kind regards, Brandon Blackmoor -- bblackmoor@blackgate.net
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                                    On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:51 +0000, "abesapiens" <john@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major
                                    > success against you, and by extension if you fail by
                                    > 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against
                                    > you. Did that help?


                                    Yes!

                                    New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess
                                    attacks?


                                    Kind regards,
                                    Brandon Blackmoor

                                    --
                                    bblackmoor@...
                                    2011-02-04
                                  • Soylent Green
                                    Yes, I see it now. I didn t think there was a margin of failure concept. Thanks for sorting that one out. To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com From: john@jetcity.net
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                                      Yes, I see it now. I didn't think there was a margin of failure concept. Thanks for sorting that one out.
                                       

                                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: john@...
                                      Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:51:23 +0000
                                      Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                       
                                      When the villains/NPCs get major and massive successes are covered in the Evading and Dodging rules:

                                      (ICONS pgs. 57 & 58)
                                      Evading ®
                                      You use your Prowess to evade attacks through a series of feints and maneuvers. Evading only works against Prowess and Strength attacks, not Coordination (ranged) attacks. Test Prowess against a difficulty of the attacker's ability level. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to evade an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                                      Dodging ®
                                      Dodging is the art of not being there when an attack arrives. Roll a Coordination test against the attacker's ability. With a success, the attack misses. On a failure, the attack hits; determine the effect and outcome from the margin of failure. For example, if you fail to dodge an attack by 3 levels, the attacker achieves a major success against you.

                                      ----
                                      If you fail by 3 or 4, then the attacker has a major success against you, and by extension if you fail by 5 or more, the attacker has a massive success against you.

                                      Did that help?

                                      John Powell

                                      --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                      >
                                      > Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                      >
                                      > "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target's Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                      > success, you deal the attack's damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                      > With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                      >
                                      > Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                      >
                                      > Does that make sense?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: john@...
                                      > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                      > Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                      > Slamming
                                      > If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.
                                      >
                                      > Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.
                                      >
                                      > Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).
                                      >
                                      > Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.
                                      >
                                      > Stunning
                                      > If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.
                                      >
                                      > Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.
                                      >
                                      > Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.
                                      >
                                      > Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.
                                      >
                                      > ---------
                                      >
                                      > Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.
                                      >
                                      > Hope this helps!
                                      >
                                      > John Powell
                                      >
                                      > --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                      > > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > That is what I was wondering.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Kind regards,
                                      > > Brandon Blackmoor
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > bblackmoor@
                                      > > 2011-02-04
                                      > >
                                      >


                                    • abesapiens
                                      Yes - Evading (Prowess) specifically mentions that it is ONLY good against Prowess and Strength attacks. Dodging (Coordination) only mentions attacks, so I
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 4, 2011
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                                        Yes - Evading (Prowess) specifically mentions that it is ONLY good against Prowess and Strength attacks. Dodging (Coordination) only mentions attacks, so I take that to mean it is good against Prowess and Strength attack, as well as ranged attacks.

                                        John Powell

                                        --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:

                                        > New question: can you use Coordination to Dodge vs Strength and Prowess
                                        > attacks?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Kind regards,
                                        > Brandon Blackmoor
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > bblackmoor@...
                                        > 2011-02-04
                                        >
                                      • eric troup
                                        I don t remember what the rules say off the top of my head, and if my memory failed like that in the middle of a game, my judgment call would be to let the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                          I don't remember what the rules say off the top of my head, and if my memory failed like that in the middle of a game, my judgment call would be to let the hero dodge on a tie (They are the heroes, after all).


                                          On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:33, Brandon Blackmoor wrote:

                                           

                                          On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                          > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                          > Prowess of 6.

                                          What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                          successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?

                                          Kind regards,
                                          Brandon Blackmoor

                                          --
                                          bblackmoor@...
                                          2011-02-04


                                        • eric troup
                                          ... Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don t roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                            On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:58, Soylent Green wrote:

                                             

                                            It's a hit.
                                             
                                            Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.


                                            Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don't roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
                                          • eric troup
                                            Not at all. If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                              Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success.


                                              On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:25, Soylent Green wrote:

                                               

                                              If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                               


                                              To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: john@...
                                              Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
                                              Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                               
                                              Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                                              John

                                              John Powell

                                              --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > It's a hit.
                                              >
                                              > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                                              >
                                              > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                                              >
                                              > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                                              > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                              > From: bblackmoor@...
                                              > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                                              > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                              > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                              > > Prowess of 6.
                                              >
                                              > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                              > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                                              >
                                              > Kind regards,
                                              > Brandon Blackmoor
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > bblackmoor@...
                                              > 2011-02-04
                                              >




                                            • eric troup
                                              Okay, in my previous post, where I said Moderate or massive I meant Major or Massive. My bad. But the idea is still the same; I just messed up the
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                Okay, in my previous post, where I said "Moderate or massive" I meant "Major or Massive."  My bad.  But the idea is still the same; I just messed up the terminology.


                                                On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:44, Soylent Green wrote:

                                                 

                                                I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                                 
                                                Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                                 
                                                "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                                success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                                With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                                 
                                                Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                                 
                                                Does that make sense?
                                                 


                                                To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: john@...
                                                Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                                Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                                 
                                                (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                                Slamming
                                                If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                                                Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                                                Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                                                Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                                                Stunning
                                                If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                                                Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                                                Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                                                Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                                                ---------

                                                Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                                                Hope this helps!

                                                John Powell

                                                --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                                > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > That is what I was wondering.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Kind regards,
                                                > Brandon Blackmoor
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > bblackmoor@...
                                                > 2011-02-04
                                                >




                                              • eric troup
                                                And since I did screw up the terminology earlier, let me reiterate what I said here, so there s no confusion. If an NPC attacks a PC, the PC still rolls dice
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                  And since I did screw up the terminology earlier, let me reiterate what I said here, so there's no confusion.

                                                  If an NPC attacks a PC, the PC still rolls dice to manipulate his/her defense score, because players are the only ones to roll dice.  So if the PC's Prowess, after being affected by the die roll, is below the villain's Prowess score enough to warrant a Major or Massive success, the villain has potential to slam or stun the PC.  Then, the Strength vs. Damage test occurs.  Again, the PC rolls dice, and the die result affects his/her Strength for that test.  If the final result means the villain's Damage exceeds the PC's (die-manipulated) Strength enough for a Major or Massive success, then the PC is slammed or stunned.


                                                  On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:44, Soylent Green wrote:

                                                   

                                                  I think that is only half the story. Whether you Slam or Stun an opponent depends on the margin of success of the attack (as well as the attack doing at least 0 Stamina damage).
                                                   
                                                  Quoting fromt he Bashing rules:
                                                   
                                                  "Test Prowess against a difficulty of the target’s Prowess. On a failure, your attack misses. With a moderate
                                                  success, you deal the attack’s damage in Stamina. With a major success, you may slam the target.
                                                  With a massive success, you may stun the target"
                                                   
                                                  Now if you don't you don't treat an NPC attack as the NPC's Prowess Test it is not longer possible for the NPC to score a Major or Massive successon the PC and hence you can't ever get a Slam or Stun.
                                                   
                                                  Does that make sense?
                                                   


                                                  To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: john@...
                                                  Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:36:55 +0000
                                                  Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                                   
                                                  (ICONS, pg. 70)
                                                  Slamming
                                                  If an attack achieves a potential slam outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot slam a target.

                                                  Failure sends the target flying out to the next range, typically from close to ranged. The target must spend next panel getting up and can perform no other action. If there's an obstacle along the way, and the attacker's damage is greater than the obstacle's material Strength (see Bending & Breaking, p. 60), the target is knocked through it. Otherwise the target hits the obstacle and stops.

                                                  Moderate success knocks the target down. Getting back up is a supplemental action (for a –1 test penalty that page).

                                                  Major or massive success means no effect from the slam.

                                                  Stunning
                                                  If an attack achieves a potential stun outcome and inflicts 0 or more Stamina damage to the target, test the target's Strength against the damage level. Attacks inflicting less than 0 damage cannot stun a target.

                                                  Failure reduces the target's Stamina to 0 and renders the character unconscious.

                                                  Moderate success stuns the target for 1 page, during which the character cannot take any actions.

                                                  Major or massive success means no effect from the stun.

                                                  ---------

                                                  Since here the rules both specify "...test the target's Strength" I'd say zeroes go to the advantage of the target, whether that's a hero or villain, as apposed to the Evading and Dodging rules, which clearly advantage the hero.

                                                  Hope this helps!

                                                  John Powell

                                                  --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Blackmoor" <bblackmoor@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:25 +0000, "Soylent Green" <gsoylent@...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > If that were true, does it mean that player characters
                                                  > > never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > That is what I was wondering.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Kind regards,
                                                  > Brandon Blackmoor
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > bblackmoor@...
                                                  > 2011-02-04
                                                  >




                                                • Soylent Green
                                                  Not at all. If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned,
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                    "Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success."

                                                    That is what I though at as well. But done this was, 0 is still a Moderate Success.

                                                    What Abe Sapiens pointed out in the Dodge rules  (on page 58) is that when NPCs attack PCs Slam or Stun is based on the PC's "margin of failure"

                                                    So Effectively there shold be two result tables, one for PC Actions and one for PC Reactions. The Reaction table is just my best guess. The rules say the -3 or worse is a Major Failure so I'm guessing there is also a Massive Failure threshold.

                                                    PC Actions
                                                    0 -2 Moderatae Success
                                                    3-4 Major Success
                                                    5+ Massive Success

                                                    PC Reactions
                                                    0+ Success
                                                    -1 to  -2 Moderate Failure
                                                    -3  to -4 Major Failure
                                                    -5 or less Massive Failure


                                                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: yakkoman@...
                                                    Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 10:00:26 -0800
                                                    Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                                     
                                                    Not at all.  If a die result takes the PC number down enough so that the villain has scored a Moderate or Massive success, the PC would be slammed or stunned, just as the villain would be if the PC scored a Moderate or Massive success.


                                                    On 4 Feb 2011, at 08:25, Soylent Green wrote:

                                                     
                                                    If that were true, does it mean that player characters never suffer from slams or stuns?
                                                     


                                                    To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: john@...
                                                    Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:06:19 +0000
                                                    Subject: [icons-rpg] Re: when villains attack

                                                     
                                                    Not according to the RAW. It's a fine house rule though.

                                                    John

                                                    John Powell

                                                    --- In icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com, Soylent Green <gsoylent@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > It's a hit.
                                                    >
                                                    > Bear in mind that that even though the PC is rolling the Dodge, this is a just a Reaction style action performed on the NPC's turn. What is being tested is NPC Action, his attack on the PC. And as such the result table of Fail, Moderate, Major and Massive Success is read from the NPC's point of view.
                                                    >
                                                    > Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.
                                                    >
                                                    > If you read result as a testing for the NPC's attack it is +5, a Massive Success with possible Stun or Kill.
                                                    > If you read this as a test of the PCS dodge it is a -5 which is just a simple Fail, no possible Stun or Kill.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > From: bblackmoor@...
                                                    > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:33:15 -0500
                                                    > Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:55 -0800, "eric troup" <yakkoman@...>
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > So, a villain tries to hit a hero. The villain
                                                    > > has a Prowess of 4. Our defending hero has a
                                                    > > Prowess of 6.
                                                    >
                                                    > What if the hero had rolled -2, for a total of 4? Would the hero
                                                    > successfully dodge, or would the villain successfully hit?
                                                    >
                                                    > Kind regards,
                                                    > Brandon Blackmoor
                                                    >
                                                    > --
                                                    > bblackmoor@...
                                                    > 2011-02-04
                                                    >





                                                  • Soylent Green
                                                    I know, I meant to say the total effort for the NPC is 5 and the the total for the PC is 0 (-5 in total). In any event all my objections from Friday withdrawn
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Feb 6, 2011
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                                                      I know, I meant to say the total effort for the NPC is 5 and the the total for the PC is 0 (-5 in total).
                                                      In any event all my objections from Friday withdrawn as as be has pretty much nailed where I was going wrong.


                                                      To: icons-rpg@yahoogroups.com
                                                      From: yakkoiman@...
                                                      Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:58:23 -0800
                                                      Subject: Re: [icons-rpg] when villains attack

                                                       


                                                      On 4 Feb 2011, at 07:58, Soylent Green wrote:

                                                       
                                                      It's a hit.
                                                       
                                                      Consider this. Say PC and NPC have the same Prowess. The NPC rolls+5, the PC rolls zero.


                                                      Only snag there is that in the rules as written, NPCs don't roll anything, so rolling a +5 would be impossible.
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